Buying from HDEW & Panamoz

[KingDad]

I can give a big thumbs up for HDEW. I enquired on Friday morning about a 5D Mk3 body and asked whether I could collect on the Saturday morning. I also received a prompt polite response to my questions regarding a VAT invoice and whether the box it was supplied in matched with the serial number of the unit inside.

Duly collected Saturday with VAT invoice, was invited to inspect contents and check the serial numbers matched. I took it away having paid by AE on card with no problems. The staff were exceptionally polite and efficient and the item is perfect. They also provided a written extended warranty (included) for the extended period with A.J. Johnson as their approved Canon repairer should it be required. Canon also cover the costs for the first year with the same approved dealer. All taxes and imports also fully covered.

Can't say fairer than that and would certainly use them again and do not think anyone should have any concerns.

 

[gramps]

All taxes and imports also fully covered.

In light of their T&C's quoted above, what evidence do you have for that?

 

[KingDad]

In light of their T&C's quoted above, what evidence do you have for that?

Our companies standard T&C's state that condition as well but in practice we have never experienced any issues as in order to import / export we have to make the necessary declarations and pay import duty / VAT which is recoverable. Couriers will not carry goods without this documentation.

I was given a VAT invoice on request without any problems and to date I have not found anyone who has been caught for any duties after sales anywhere on the Internet however if you can evidence differently I am open to changing my statement. I asked directly if all duties and taxes had been paid, which admittedly was done verbally, and the answer was provided by HDEW.

Point is this, I suppose it is possible you could be contacted for payment but HMRC would then have to do this for everyone who has purchased from HDEW and prove duty had not been paid correctly. VAT has definitely been paid. If there was any wrong doing do you not think HMRC would have closed in on this by now with the volume of business transacted and a team of 11 staff on PAYE. HMRC routine PAYE visits assess all forms of taxation as we recently discovered during a routine PAYE check.

 

[gramps]

Our companies standard T&C's state that condition as well but in practice we have never experienced any issues as in order to import / export we have to make the necessary declarations and pay import duty / VAT which is recoverable. Couriers will not carry goods without this documentation.

I was given a VAT invoice on request without any problems and to date I have not found anyone who has been caught for any duties after sales anywhere on the Internet however if you can evidence differently I am open to changing my statement. I asked directly if all duties and taxes had been paid, which admittedly was done verbally, and the answer was provided by HDEW.

Point is this, I suppose it is possible you could be contacted for payment but HMRC would then have to do this for everyone who has purchased from HDEW and prove duty had not been paid correctly. VAT has definitely been paid. If there was any wrong doing do you not think HMRC would have closed in on this by now with the volume of business transacted and a team of 11 staff on PAYE. HMRC routine PAYE visits assess all forms of taxation as we recently discovered during a routine PAYE check.

Well experiencing an issue or not is quite different to there actually being an issue, as I am sure that you know ... similarly, 'being caught' or not is not an indicator as to whether things are correct/legal or not.
My only concern is how can it be that the products are claimed to be 'duty & tax paid' when the T&C's clearly state that the buyer is the importer ... is that not misleading?
If that is not the case and import duty has been paid then it seems simple to me ... remove the statement from the T&C's and it is no longer misleading.
So far they have not done this (despite having had it pointed out to them) so I am compelled to make the assumption that, as their T&C's declare, anyone buying from HDEW's website is the importer and liable for import duty ... much the same as other 'grey' importers.
Please not I am not questioning HDEW's customer service, value, reliability etc, it is the issue of whether or not they are any different to any other grey supplier, in that the buyer is the importer







.

 

[studioworks]

....I bought my Canon 7D2 from Park Cameras and 100-400mm L II from HDEW. I dropped them (indoors) and they needed repair but it was my fault (admitted) and so not under warranty (my insurance paid).

Park were slow and offered no reassurance or information. HDEW put me in direct contact with their usual warranty repairer (A.J.Johnson, Canon approved) and were exemplary. I moved my body repair to A.J.Johnson.

Have since bought other gear from HDEW and shan't be using Park again! Especially as they charged me twice for my 7D2 original purchase and have misinformed me on several occasions. Wex is a good supplier with good service.

Unfortuantly this doesnt surprise me any more, customer service has gone out the window for a lot of places.
It costs hundreds more to buy from the UK, for me the only reason would be the reassurance of any problems getting resolved quickly but if your not even getting that I'd rather save my money.

 

[RedRobin]

@gramps Your posts on this subject of what shade of grey HDEW are, I feel, somewhat academic. So many have experienced nothing but the best when buying from HDEW and, in my case, that includes aftersales service and repairs. If you are not comfortable with buying from HDEW then fair enough - I am no longer comfortable buying from Park Cameras and the average high street shop simply can't compete. HDEW were once a high street shop - They made the right change! For me it's either HDEW or Wex and also Amazon can be price competitive on 'accessories'.

Btw, there's a long thread on TP covering a number of years and specifically posting photographer's direct and unbiassed experiences using HDEW - That speaks for itself.

But each to their own

 

[arthurbikemad]

I know loads of people who buy from HDEW! MOST of them don't bother with the net or forums as we do, they are photographers that strangely and I kid you not and I place emphasis on the fact I know I know it's hard to believe but not all live a life on the internet, BUT however they have had nothing but good things to say about HDEW, faulty gear replaced in under a week and so on, as for TAX and imports I am sure by now (however many years HDEW have openly traded) HDEW would have been closed down, one of my mates has well over 20 grands worth of HDEW gear and never has had any issues with import duty and (he is saying as I type) has VAT invoices that has been through his books etc etc..

 

[Grumps1974]

Another thumbs up for HDEW. Excellent customer service on the occasions I have used them. I have no complaints at all.

 

[gramps]

@RedRobin I know all about the claims of good service etc from HDEW, I am not commenting on that ... I am commenting on the statement that "tax and import duty is paid" by HDEW. The T&C's on HDEW's own website says it isn't ... that's the point ... whatever people's experience is with their service, or whatever the situation with HMRC the FACT is that HDEW declare the buyer as the importer and if that isn't true why would they state it on their website T&C's?

 

[KingDad]

@RedRobin I know all about the claims of good service etc from HDEW, I am not commenting on that ... I am commenting on the statement that "tax and import duty is paid" by HDEW. The T&C's on HDEW's own website says it isn't ... that's the point ... whatever people's experience is with their service, or whatever the situation with HMRC the FACT is that HDEW declare the buyer as the importer and if that isn't true why would they state it on their website T&C's?

I get where you are coming from @gramps and fully understand why you would think it is wrong to state something that is technically covered but when trading you may have to disclose T&C before making a sale. That is why we have a similar statement on our companies T&C that states the buyer is responsible for any taxes / duties / VAT / and any costs etc incurred pertaining to country of destination and departure. The reality of it is that this is all done as a matter of course up front but we cover ourselves in case there are changes or unforeseen charges we were not aware of when the transaction takes place and we can pass these back to the customer.

To be fair HDEW T&C's are a little bit too loose and taxes etc do not normally fall under the clause of Intellectual Property !!!!! I copy their section from their terms and conditions to highlight this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS.

Please note that by making a purchase on this website you will be acting as the importer of the product for all purposes including all customs regulations,copyright and trademark laws.You accept that the role of HDEW Cameras is limited to sourcing products and making them available for you to import directly from the country of origin.By purchasing a product through this website you authorise us to make arrangements for clearance of customs on your behalf for the products you have ordered.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps HDEW need a better set of T&C's drawn up but as we all know this can be expensive and can become unwieldy (take a mobile phone contract for example.

The clause is a sort of catch all and unless you are familiar with he inner workings of the organisation it is difficult to make any guesses as to what is or is not paid out in the process of trading.

They do however state that you authorise them to make arrangements for clearance of customs on the buyers behalf which would have to be done up front anyway. If you are not asked for this then it is fair to assume the HMRC have cleared the item for import and there is nothing further to pay.

I am not a legal expert but we do trade worldwide and therefore I have some knowledge and experience of how this works. Problem is this discussion can go on and on chasing wording and does not get us anywhere in the end. Suffice to say HDEW seem to trade responsibly and as others have said would have been caught by HMRC by now if there was a concern

 

[gramps]

I hear what you are saying and you may be right, however the T&C's are clear rather than loose IMO ... you (the buyer) are the importer and liable, HDEW merely source the goods on your behalf. You are right though, we could go on discussing it ad infinitum, whereas HDEW could clear it up by changing their T&C's or by one of their staff (a few members here I believe) putting it right

 

[RedRobin]

I hear what you are saying and you may be right, however the T&C's are clear rather than loose IMO ... you (the buyer) are the importer and liable, HDEW merely source the goods on your behalf. You are right though, we could go on discussing it ad infinitum, whereas HDEW could clear it up by changing their T&C's or by one of their staff (a few members here I believe) putting it right

....Do you know for certain that any TP members are staff at HDEW? It would only matter if they were continually promoting HDEW but so many satisfied customers means they don't need to anyway

Why on earth does all this matter to you, gramps? HDEW offer a great price, a great service, and vat receipts, what more do you want?

Why is it important to you that HDEW revise their T&Cs? Do you buy from HDEW? Would you buy from HDEW?

 

[Mitzyboy]

Still on HDEW website under 'Term and Conditions'
So I see absolutely no difference than with any other 'grey' importer, even though they have a presence in the UK.

Thats a catchall. I've bought from HDEW and had a camera in my hand three days after the order. Unless they have some wonderful import procedures and shipping, it was sent to me from the UK
Terms and conditions are supposed to cover all eventualities, and thats what that is for. I'd love to hear examples of anyone who has bought through HDEW and been charged VAT from HMRC.

You wont be at risk of evasion of import duty on a camera from the FE, as the duty rate is zero.
On import into the UK the importer has to pay VAT by making an import entry at the time of importation before the goods are released, normally by a VAT account.
Bringing in cameras one at a time from the FE is an increadibly costly way of doing things, more likely they import in bulk & have stocks in the UK which significantly reduces their freight and import charges.

 

[Canon Bob]

......
On import into the UK the importer has to pay VAT by making an import entry at the time of importation before the goods are released, normally by a VAT account.

The importer or someone acting on their behalf.......

I've mentioned this before but I'll reiterate here for the benefit of anybody who didn't see the earlier discussion. I bought a lens from one of the popular UK grey market websites and it was duly delivered. I then received the customs documentation from the French authorities (standard practice here) showing that I was the importer and the amount that had been paid on my behalf. This would seem to imply that the T&C are in fact valid.

Bob

 

[gramps]

....Do you know for certain that any TP members are staff at HDEW? It would only matter if they were continually promoting HDEW but so many satisfied customers means they don't need to anyway

You miss the point, I do not say they are promoting HDEW's products, as far as I know none have ... my point is that they could quash the issue once and for all if it wasn't an issue.

Why on earth does all this matter to you, gramps? HDEW offer a great price, a great service, and vat receipts, what more do you want?

Why is it important to you that HDEW revise their T&Cs? Do you buy from HDEW? Would you buy from HDEW?

It matters because others are proclaiming that things are different with HDEW, that they are unlike other 'grey' suppliers because they are the importers ... but their T&C's say that is not so ... on the principle of 'buyer beware', prospective customers should know exactly where they stand.
Yes I have bought a single item from HDEW, bought on the impression given to me that they were importers of the goods and that by doing so I was in some way getting a 'grey' price but with the benefit of import duty and tax being paid by them. Subsequently I saw that their T&C's showed I was in fact the importer, which was not what I was led to believe ... other buyers should be made aware of the truth of the matter.
When someone says that you are better off buying from HDEW because import duty and taxes are paid by them, that is not correct, hence me voicing my opinion.
I am not the only person to have expressed a similar opinion, including a UK Retail Trader.

 

[Mitzyboy]

You miss the point, I do not say they are promoting HDEW's products, as far as I know none have ... my point is that they could quash the issue once and for all if it wasn't an issue.


It matters because others are proclaiming that things are different with HDEW, that they are unlike other 'grey' suppliers because they are the importers ... but their T&C's say that is not so ... on the principle of 'buyer beware', prospective customers should know exactly where they stand.
Yes I have bought a single item from HDEW, bought on the impression given to me that they were importers of the goods and that by doing so I was in some way getting a 'grey' price but with the benefit of import duty and tax being paid by them. Subsequently I saw that their T&C's showed I was in fact the importer, which was not what I was led to believe ... other buyers should be made aware of the truth of the matter.
When someone says that you are better off buying from HDEW because import duty and taxes are paid by them, that is not correct, hence me voicing my opinion.
I am not the only person to have expressed a similar opinion, including a UK Retail Trader.

There is no import duty on cameras from the Far East.
I bought a camera from HDEW and the VAT was already paid on it. I know that because it was delivered to me from UK stock. It is not possible for HDEW to import goods into the UK with VAT unpaid on a camera. Unless they are smuggling them in, which in view of their business profile is unlikely because they would all be in jail by now!

 

[RedRobin]

When someone says that you are better off buying from HDEW because import duty and taxes are paid by them, that is not correct, hence me voicing my opinion.

I am not the only person to have expressed a similar opinion, including a UK Retail Trader.

....In my not so humble opinion (and direct experience several times), I am better off buying from HDEW because of the financial savings and the excellent service both before and after sales. Nothing to do with taxes etc. But, as said earlier, buy from where you feel most comfortable.

I'm laughing at the UK retail trader reference - Most UK retailers can't compete with their HDEW rival and so will trash their reputation at every opportunity! Anyway, isn't HDEW a UK registered company with premises you can visit?

 

[gramps]

Here's an interesting one Robin ... Nikon D7200

Typical UK Nikon Distributor £749:00 inc VAT
Panamoz Hong Kong £623:00 no VAT
HDEW £605:00 inc VAT

So yes, in financial terms it pays to buy your D7200 from HDEW ... HDEW's price (including VAT) is around the price of a UK camera without VAT and less than a Hong Kong camera that doesn't have VAT paid ... makes you think

 

[RedRobin]

Here's an interesting one Robin ... Nikon D7200

Typical UK Nikon Distributor £749:00 inc VAT
Panamoz Hong Kong £623:00 no VAT
HDEW £605:00 inc VAT

So yes, in financial terms it pays to buy your D7200 from HDEW ... HDEW's price (including VAT) is around the price of a UK camera without VAT and less than a Hong Kong camera that doesn't have VAT paid ... makes you think

....You pays yer money and you takes yer pick

I think that the important information for anyone considering buying from HDEW is that it's not risky and the service is reliable and good. If I appear to be particularly strongly recommending them it's only because my experiences with them has been good and better than most 'UK retailers'. But thumbs-up to Wex and thumbs-down to Park.

By sharing our experiences and opinions on TP we all help each other make our individual decisions.

 

[big soft moose]

There is no import duty on cameras from the Far East.
I bought a camera from HDEW and the VAT was already paid on it. I know that because it was delivered to me from UK stock. It is not possible for HDEW to import goods into the UK with VAT unpaid on a camera.

Strictly speaking that's not true - i'm not saying they do but its very easy to import cameras without paying the vat , hence the popularity of all the other grey importers based overseas... however if they are bringing them in with the VAT paid they must have a very good source of supply if they can offer a vat paid price lower than a grey importer based in hong kong offers with no vat paid

That(and Vat) aside your info on import duty is true but slightly misleading, there is no import duty on camera bodies , there is a duty (of i think 9%) on lenses when not imported as part of a kit

 

[realspeed]

HDEW are just covering their backsides with their terms and conditions. Most companies do this to protect themselves if you read every companies T and C
I too have brought from them with excellent sales response.

 

[Mitzyboy]

Strictly speaking that's not true - i'm not saying they do but its very easy to import cameras without paying the vat , hence the popularity of all the other grey importers based overseas... however if they are bringing them in with the VAT paid they must have a very good source of supply if they can offer a vat paid price lower than a grey importer based in hong kong offers with no vat paid

That(and Vat) aside your info on import duty is true but slightly misleading, there is no import duty on camera bodies , there is a duty (of i think 9%) on lenses when not imported as part of a kit

Not misleading. I said no duty on cameras. lenses are different. My experience in this is as an Ex Customs & Excise Officer and a long time importer from the Far East The alternative to the good source of supply is that they are selling at a realistic price whereas the main UK suppliers are making huge profits ;-)

Again, with the exception of smuggling them, totally misdeclaring them at import, or wrapping them in gift paper, it is not possible to regularly bring in equipment such as this in such bulk without paying the taxes due. Dont you think HMRC would have picked up on such a huge undertaking

 

[OldCarlos]

...they are selling at a realistic price whereas the main UK suppliers are making huge profits

I don't think many (if any) UK suppliers are making huge profits.
They do have huge overheads & running costs though. (whilst also chipping in to the UK economy)

Post #2 pretty much sums it up; https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...rey-imports-and-other-assorted-topics.512133/

 

[big soft moose]

Not misleading. I said no duty on cameras. lenses are different. My experience in this is as an Ex Customs & Excise Officer and a long time importer from the Far East The alternative to the good source of supply is that they are selling at a realistic price whereas the main UK suppliers are making huge profits ;-)

So how come they are also cheaper than grey importers selling from hong kong without declaring the vat ?

Again, with the exception of smuggling them, totally misdeclaring them at import, or wrapping them in gift paper, it is not possible to regularly bring in equipment such as this in such bulk without paying the taxes due. Dont you think HMRC would have picked up on such a huge undertaking

Have HMRC picked up on all the other grey importers regularly shipping stuff to the uK ? - as an ex excise officer you should know better than anyone the volume of stuff that crosses our borders on a daily basis - a lot of grey importers simply play the volume game in shipping lots of stuff and knowing that most of it will get through uninspected, while others have form for shipping stuff misdeclred "low value toy parts" being common ... and we are talking about parcels and shipping containers not people flying in with them in their luggage

I'm not saying that Hdew are doing either , but its certainly a lot easier to do than you are making out

 

[Mitzyboy]

So how come they are also cheaper than grey importers selling from hong kong without declaring the vat ?



Have HMRC picked up on all the other grey importers regularly shipping stuff to the uK ? - as an ex excise officer you should know better than anyone the volume of stuff that crosses our borders on a daily basis - a lot of grey importers simply play the volume game in shipping lots of stuff and knowing that most of it will get through uninspected, while others have form for shipping stuff misdeclred "low value toy parts" being common ... and we are talking about parcels and shipping containers not people flying in with them in their luggage

I'm not saying that Hdew are doing either , but its certainly a lot easier to do than you are making out

Please dont take offence at this, it's honestly not meant to offend .... but you are demonstrating a distinct lack of knowledge of how the commercial importation of goods works. Yes, HMRC would have knowledge of trends and imports. They have huge investigory and statistical abilities.

Playing the volume game on the basis of most stuff will get through uninspected? How do you know that? This is the trouble you see, loads of assumptions and guesses on threads like this. Well, there is a random system in place that pulls any number of shipments for inspection. However thats on top of the random physical checks. What has often been suggested is that equipment is imported on an individual basis undeclared or declared as gifts. Can you imagine the amount of hassle that would be from an importers point of view? With the volume of business that HDEW or any other big importer are bringing in, probability is that one of these "misdeclared shipments" would be pulled, and noticed. ONE misdeclaration from an importer such as that means you are then on the watch list in effect!

In answer to your first question, I have no idea. Perhaps they are better businessmen, perhaps they buy more in bulk getting better rates, or they have less overheads than the biggies. I dont know.

All I know is that most of the "anti" talk on these threads is based on guesswork. Usually that they must be evading taxes. All i can tell you is from my own experience, and the experience of thousands of others who used HDEW on the internet when you google it (ohh ... yes they put all those good reviews up themselves, dont they ) they have done the job well, gave me a camera in three days with a UK charger with no issues at all at a reasonably good price.

I cant speak for the others. i dont know how they operate. I bought HDEW because of research I did, and the results of speaking to them direct, their reply to my warrantee question as follows:

Hello Jon,

We do import our stock from outside of the UK, however all of the products we sell are UK specification.
You will get a three year warranty which covers you for mechanical faults, breakdown, parts and labour and this will be repaired in the UK through a Canon approved repair centre. The first year of the warranty will be with canon and the next two years will be with us as your retailer.

Therefore we do not class our products as 'Grey Imports' as they come with a warranty valid in the UK and they are sold to UK specification.

 

[Mitzyboy]

I don't think many (if any) UK suppliers are making huge profits.
They do have huge overheads & running costs though. (whilst also chipping in to the UK economy)

Post #2 pretty much sums it up; https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...rey-imports-and-other-assorted-topics.512133/

I'm not arguing with you on that ..... but how do you / we know how much profit Canon in the UK are making? We'll never know of course because of manegement costs (remember Starbucks!) I had a look at the on line accounts summary and immediately becaome confused

 

[big soft moose]

Please dont take offence at this, it's honestly not meant to offend .... but you are demonstrating a distinct lack of knowledge of how the commercial importation of goods works. Yes, HMRC would have knowledge of trends and imports. They have huge investigory and statistical abilities.

Playing the volume game on the basis of most stuff will get through uninspected? How do you know that? This is the trouble you see, loads of assumptions and guesses on threads like this. Well, there is a random system in place that pulls any number of shipments for inspection. However thats on top of the random physical checks. What has often been suggested is that equipment is imported on an individual basis undeclared or declared as gifts. Can you imagine the amount of hassle that would be from an importers point of view? With the volume of business that HDEW or any other big importer are bringing in, probability is that one of these "misdeclared shipments" would be pulled, and noticed. ONE misdeclaration from an importer such as that means you are then on the watch list in effect!

.

Please dont take offence at this - but for a customs officer you don't seem to know a lot about how grey importing works - with the exception of Hdew and arguably kerso the goods are despatched from hong kong or the US or whatever with the buyer being the importer and therefore liable for the import duty if any and the Vat (in fact even hdew have a line in their T&Cs that the customer is the importer as previously discussed)

ergo the grey dealers (importer is a misnomer) are not in fact importing the goods at all - and thus when a parcel gets caught labeled as toy parts or whatever it is the individual who would go on the watch list, not the firm that despatched it from konkers, likewise we know that some grey dealers are playing a volume game by the reports of some but not all their parcels being held up at customs and not released until customs charges are paid... some grey dealers say they will pay the duties if this happens, others won't

Some people accept these risks willingly which is fine (apart from being illegal but thats theuir choice) - but other people are duped by grey dealers using uk phone numbers and virtual offices to pretend to be in the Uk when they actually arent

 

[xmh]

I wish they sold XQD cards.

The 128GB Professional 2933x XQD™ 2.0 card is $159.95 in the USA from B&H, in the UK it's £399.00

 

[HoppyUK]

Agree with Pete BSM, and for someone with a background in HMRC, Mitzyboy is seriously out of touch.

On the other hand, personally I don't have a major issue with the tax-dodging side of things, even if I wish it was otherwise. Why HMRC doesn't clamp down on this widespread abuse is a complete mystery, but the problem for me, the moral dilemma, is the impact the whole grey importing business has on UK retailers (where have all the camera shops gone?) and also the wider economy.

With most grey sellers, all the money goes out of the UK, end of story. With HDEW, at least they have UK premises, employ staff, and contribute to the UK economy. No matter how creative their accountants may be, at least some cash is fed back in.

 

[big soft moose]

I wish they sold XQD cards.

The 128GB Professional 2933x XQD™ 2.0 card is $159.95 in the USA from B&H, in the UK it's £399.00

I was going to say My Memory.co.uk but i just checked and the largest XQD they have is 64gb

you can almost certainly find a grey importer who does have them on ebay - but the challenge is knowing they are genuine as a lot of these guys are based in china which is a hot bed of counterfeiting

Amazon have them at £157 btw (but bear in mind the point above and the maxim that if it looks to good to be true... )

 

[Mitzyboy]

Agree with Pete BSM, and for someone with a background in HMRC, Mitzyboy is seriously out of touch.

Actually, I'm not. As I said, these threads are often filled with misinformation and guesswork with very little backup of information ;-)
I dont actually know why I get into these discussions because even if I backed this up with comments from someone in the job now, I bet I'd still be seriously out of touch

BSM, I'm only talking about my experience with one company, as I said I have no experience of others
If my camera came from UK stock, by the way, how would it be that I was shown as the UK importer?

 

[HoppyUK]

Actually, I'm not. As I said, these threads are often filled with misinformation and guesswork with very little backup of information ;-)
I dont actually know why I get into these discussions because even if I backed this up with comments from someone in the job now, I bet I'd still be seriously out of touch

BSM, I'm only talking about my experience with one company, as I said I have no experience of others
If my camera came from UK stock, by the way, how would it be that I was shown as the UK importer?

If you buy a grey item held in the UK, it is not 'in stock' but still 'in transit' and not liable for tax until it formerly reaches its permanent destination, ie the end-user buys it. They become the importer and only then is payment due. How that payment is made (or not, as is certainly the case with most grey imports) and by whom, attracts a variety of answers. VAT receipts are conspicuous by their absence, or only available on request, but most buyers don't want or need a VAT receipt, so don't ask for one.

You may be a newcomer to the many long threads like this but there is very wide personal experience from grey buyers, including me. I once got a package labelled as a toy from China, value $10 (which is three lies). The guesswork is only about how certain firms operate, because none of them will come on here and explain things openly and honestly (or even at all). That's what's driving the suspicion and very valid questions, and it's not as if they don't know these threads exist.

 

[rob-nikon]

Why HMRC doesn't clamp down on this widespread abuse is a complete mystery, but the problem for me, the moral dilemma, is the impact the whole grey importing business has on UK retailers (where have all the camera shops gone?) and also the wider economy.

Looking at the new thread in the shopping section it looks like the government and HMRC may be trying to clamp down on sellers via Amazon and Ebay. The likely next step is overseas sellers of high end electronics goods like cameras as its more profitable return for the effort HMRC have to put in.

 

[HoppyUK]

Looking at the new thread in the shopping section it looks like the government and HMRC may be trying to clamp down on sellers via Amazon and Ebay. The likely next step is overseas sellers of high end electronics goods like cameras as its more profitable return for the effort HMRC have to put in.

How timely. Thread and other links here https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...and-ebay-to-held-liable-for-vat-fraud.619599/

This could make a big difference. If buyers thought there was a good chance that they'd get clobbered for unpaid duty and VAT on grey purchases, that could amount to the best part of 30% extra, grey importers would go out of business overnight. All it would take is a few high profile prosecutions for that to happen.

George Osborne has been quite cute in getting Ebay and Amazon to do all the donkey work.

 

[Mitzyboy]

If you buy a grey item held in the UK, it is not 'in stock' but still 'in transit' and not liable for tax until it formerly reaches its permanent destination, ie the end-user buys it. They become the importer and only then is payment due. How that payment is made (or not, as is certainly the case with most grey imports) and by whom, attracts a variety of answers. VAT receipts are conspicuous by their absence, or only available on request, but most buyers don't want or need a VAT receipt, so don't ask for one.

Again, I'm only commenting on my experience with HDEW, I know nothing about how other operaters operate and I have seen some sorry stories.

So ... you are telling me that you think that a stock of cameras can be bought into the UK by HDEW and deposited in a Uk depot without any import taxes being paid on them, and therefore the end buyer is responsible for making a customs entrty. Is that right? You're saying that commercial companies can bring freight into the UK without declaring it and therefore not paying taxes on them. I'm not talking about the people who send you a camera as a gift from Hong Kong to avoid tax, I'm talking about a UK registered company with UK offices. I just want to clarify that's what you think about the way that HDEW operates.

 

[HoppyUK]

Again, I'm only commenting on my experience with HDEW, I know nothing about how other operaters operate and I have seen some sorry stories.

So ... you are telling me that you think that a stock of cameras can be bought into the UK by HDEW and deposited in a Uk depot without any import taxes being paid on them, and therefore the end buyer is responsible for making a customs entrty. Is that right? You're saying that commercial companies can bring freight into the UK without declaring it and therefore not paying taxes on them. I'm not talking about the people who send you a camera as a gift from Hong Kong to avoid tax, I'm talking about a UK registered company with UK offices. I just want to clarify that's what you think about the way that HDEW operates.

You can't have read the link I posted above, and The Guardian article linked there, where it says: In Wednesday’s budget speech, George Osborne acknowledged there had been a big rise in overseas suppliers storing goods in Britain and selling them online without paying VAT. “That unfairly undercuts British businesses both on the internet and on the high street,” he said. Go and argue with George Osborne.

I'm not commenting on HDEW, I don't know how they operate and I'm certainly not suggesting anything illegal. They are an exception to most grey market traders and as I said above, I applaud the fact that they have a significant UK presence and must therefore contribute to the wider UK economy.

 

[Mitzyboy]

You can't have read the link I posted above, and The Guardian article linked there, where it says: In Wednesday’s budget speech, George Osborne acknowledged there had been a big rise in overseas suppliers storing goods in Britain and selling them online without paying VAT. “That unfairly undercuts British businesses both on the internet and on the high street,” he said. Go and argue with George Osborne.

I'm not commenting on HDEW, I don't know how they operate and I'm certainly not suggesting anything illegal. They are an exception to most grey market traders and as I said above, I applaud the fact that they have a significant UK presence and must therefore contribute to the wider UK economy.

I wouldnt dare argue with George Osbourne

I've not commented on any of the ebay sellers. I would never have bought a camera off ebay as it's fairly obvious in some instances whats going on. I DID buy a camera long ago from the States which arrived described as a gift with a low value, so thats about the same kind of thing I guess.

As i keep saying, I am only commenting on HDEW as thats my only experience of late, and I'm not even sure as to how Amazon operate. Although that article seems at the moment to pick out Amazon & ebay, as regards the comments about storing goods in the UK, I would be interested to see how that is achieved because normal import procedures preclude that, other than through a bonded warehouse. A bonded warehouse allows goods to be imported tax free to a registered premises and then tax paid only when the goods are removed. However it can be a costly process and wouldnt seem to fit in with the pricing.

 

[chuckles]

What is absolutely conspicuous through it's absence is any defensive argument coming from the Importers themselves.

To my mind, if they were acting scrupulously within the Law then they would be here to argue it vociferously and with passion. The reason for my assertion? As their prices are so low compared to 'legitimate' outlets they stand to make ££££s with the free publicity through threads like these!

There is a case to answer which nobody on the 'wrong' side is actually doing - that, to me, speaks volumes!.

 

[Nawty]

What is absolutely conspicuous through it's absence is any defensive argument coming from the Importers themselves.

To my mind, if they were acting scrupulously within the Law then they would be here to argue it vociferously and with passion. The reason for my assertion? As their prices are so low compared to 'legitimate' outlets they stand to make ££££s with the free publicity through threads like these!

There is a case to answer which nobody on the 'wrong' side is actually doing - that, to me, speaks volumes!.

The silence is deafening.

 

[gramps]

When questioning HDEW's T&C's statement about the customer being the importer, (quoted from their website above), this was the reply I got:-

The Intellectual Property Rights is merely a disclaimer - there are no extra charges the price you paid upon ordering is all you pay. The rights you highlighted, simply mean that you - the customer are the receiver of the item you purchase. You have a valid receipt and the price you pay on this is all that you pay.

TBH that makes no sense to me whatsoever, maybe @Mitzyboy with his Customs & Excise experience can interpret it for me?