Buying Printer, is it worth it?

Marino

Marino

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MARINO
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Hey all,

I was thinking of printing some of my landscapes(a4 max size), and some photos of my family (15x10cm).
Does it come cheaper to just order prints or buy an printer(including ink and paper cost)?
If it's cheaper could you suggest a printer?
im clueless about printers and ink

Thx
Marino
 
Hey Phil,

i Think i like the challenge, thx for pointing that out, as i thought it would be straightforward.
I started printing in a darkroom. For me photography is in the final stage, printing.
I was thinking of even buying darkroom equipment as i have plenty of space in the garage.
But with the paper and film prices so high i dont think it's worth it at the moment.
So assuming i'm ok with doing a bit of reading about printing, what would printer would be a good start? I dont even know what to look for.
I have a small printer but the ink is too expensive and only lasts for a few pictures.
thx
for the reply,
Marino
 
You would probably be better off posting in the printing and presentation forum.

My experience with the bigger printers is that the ink is even more expensive, you need more and it still only lasts a few prints. Unless you plan to print really regularly using a lab is much more cost-effective.
 
Marino said:
Hey Phil,

i Think i like the challenge, thx for pointing that out, as i thought it would be straightforward.
I started printing in a darkroom. For me photography is in the final stage, printing.
I was thinking of even buying darkroom equipment as i have plenty of space in the garage.
But with the paper and film prices so high i dont think it's worth it at the moment.
So assuming i'm ok with doing a bit of reading about printing, what would printer would be a good start? I dont even know what to look for.
I have a small printer but the ink is too expensive and only lasts for a few pictures.
thx
for the reply,
Marino
Click to expand...
It’s a broad church, and plenty of photographers actually put more effort into printing than they do photography. There’s no right answer.

Personally; in film days, for pro work I was more than happy to pay for pro printing, and despite owning a decent printer, everything I’ve sold or displayed is printed by someone else.

However; you appear to have answered your own question- if you want to print, have a go. :)

I’d probably add that the technology is mature, so you’re unlikely to buy a crap printer.
 
Home printing is an expensive, frustrating, highly rewarding activity. It’s cheaper to get prints done at the likes of DS Colour Labs, and the quality will be comparable if not better, as long as you are happy using the standard papers, and paying for slightly pricey postage which makes it more economic to order larger numbers of prints.

If you want to try different papers, then that is where home printing comes in but it does get pricey. Also, while it’s great to be able to print at home at your leisure, maybe doing one or two when you fancy, printers like to be used and can get clogged and need cleaning which can be a faff.

Personally I wouldn’t be without one, as I like to print my own on Baryta paper (and to get a lab to print in that is very pricey), and I’ve figured out how to prepare images for printing to my tastes, but it’s not for everyone!!!
 
Some context.....

I have had prints made commercially for sale at the occasional shared space exhibitions I have done and of late have used @Tradecanvasprint for both prints and canvases.

But I have printed a few at home on my 'basic' Canon TS 8250 and in the main liked them for my whiteboard and to share with family & friends but oh boy is the ink expensive!

However, in regard to the exhibitions I mention I also had some Greetings Cards printed commercially, this was a modest batch of 100 with 4 different images. They were OK in the amount of interest but not quick movers.

Fast forward to this year....and going forwards. I decided I wanted to print more for putting on my desk easel at home and to just print one or two a month (only just got the printer so still experimenting). Plus, I wanted to look at printing very small batches of greetings cards.....such that when I exhibit I can put say 4 off each of maybe 5 different pictures out on offer. Hence, if one or more prove popular I can print some more on demand to replenish the display as needed.

So, to the factors that have held me back...in the case of the Canon the sheer price of those darned small inks cartridges and not a printer I would use for cards anyway because it does not lend itself to print profiling.

Therefore I have bought an Epson ET-8550 EcoTank printer, yes a higher up front cost but it comes with a full inkset of bottles @ 70ml capacity in each bottle (Pigment Black, Photo Black, Cyan, Magenta, Yellow & Light Grey).

Now, the ET-8550 uses Dye Inks plus a Pigment Black so I would never put the prints made with it in the exhibition for sale even though modern Dye Inks are more fade resistant than their predecessors BUT compared to Pigment Inks they can hardly be 'seen' as archival.

The prints will be for my own pleasure and as tests of 'what does the image look like' and is it worth getting printed commercially for sale.

But Greetings Cards are more ephemeral i.e. never intended to be displayed longer term though potentially kept in a draw as a momento/keepsake.

FWIW the ET-8550 is recognised by the Epson Print Layout software (EPL is software targeted at the Pro Grade printer lines) and whatever it does under the hood EPL & the printer are making some cracking prints with OEM papers.

When it comes to the greetings cards I will first test the 3rd party papers to see how well they reproduce the images will likely get bespoke profiles done when I have decided on the surface finish(es) I like best.

In summary, is it justified on the cost of the printer et al probably not but there is some real pleasure in seeing the prints come out and to seeing them in our own home whenever we like :D


PS the Epson is an A3+ printer so I can get 2 off 12 x 8 (a tad larger) out each A3+ sheet......note, it is possible to get two off 8 x 5.5inch prints from an A4 sheet ;)

PPS back in the day my brother and I had a home darkroom and seeing the prints develop was perhaps the trigger for wanting to see my own prints more often nowadays ;)
 
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Marino said:
Hey Phil,

i Think i like the challenge, thx for pointing that out, as i thought it would be straightforward.
Click to expand...

Simple answer is don't bother. Just pay to get prints done commercially.

But you don't want to hear that!

So.

I think there are three ways to approach printing at home.

- Pragmatic low cost. This means buying a 6 ink A4 or A3 printer from Canon or Epson. The TS8250 has been mentioned. These are dye ink printers. Stick with the OEM Canon or Epson inks and you will get reasonable quality. You will get good quality prints on reputable Canon or third party gloss and semigloss / lustre papers. They will last raesonably There is a large variety. You will get stiffed on the ink cost. And if you go for expensive papers then you will find these are not cheap.

- Less pragmatic higher cost. Get a 'Pro' printer which is more expensive and likely A3+ or bigger. More expensive ones use pigment inks. The cartridge costs are eye watering but the cartridges do cotain more ink. The pigment inks last a,long time and while not as vibrant on gloss papers are still good and they work well with non-gloss paper types.

- If you feel like doing something a bit more radical on the low cost front then try one of the refillable 6 colour A4 inkjet printers like the Canon G600 series. A G650 will be more than say a TS8250 but the inks are cheaper. Downside is the inks are allegedly not as good (sort of 'old model' in terms of longevity) and the printers are less featured (Canon G500 and G600 family have no auto-duplexing for general use and a poxy display).

If you want to research this more then spend some time with Keith Cooper's website:

www.northlight-images.conuk

He does straight talking reviews of the pro printers and also did a recent review of the Canon G550 printer.

If you are even slightly tempted by a 'pro' printer then figure on needing space and commitment.

Don't get caught up with the need for a 'pro' printer or A3. That 'pragmatic low cost' option would get you a printer that will work as an every day printer and also one that will produce prints on good paper that most people wouldn't tell ap[art from a pro printer on the right paper. You will get stiffed on ink a bit more but then you don't invest so much up front and the printer is more useful as general purpose (I suspect that many who would buy a larger pro printer will also have a lower cost printer for general purpose use).

And if you need to print bigger or more special going the lower costs routes then use a professional service.
 
I always say about printing at home it costs the kind of money you would only pay out on a hobby.
In other words not cheap, but it is exactly as viewfromthenorth says frustrating and highly rewarding.

Also budget for a monitor calibrator, worst mistake made by beginners is screen too bright, print too dark.
 
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If your main consideration is price, then no it's not worth it, especially if you're looking at a4 - I'd suggest using a lab and printing in batches.

If you want to get 'into' printing, then printing your own can be rewarding. but it's something else to factor into your budgeting
 
There’s a lot of good advice here already and even though I sell prints fairly regularly for my business printing is both a frustrating and rewarding process. I currently have 3 printers all of which produce different results at different costs. I have the Canon pro1000 which produces sublime prints but unless you use it regularly I reckon it uses more ink to flush the system through than to actually print. It still pays for itself and is immensely satisfying. It also enables me to get the right result and immediately tweak it if it’s wrong. On a cost basis unless you are doing loads a lab will be way more cost effective. I also have a dye sub printer from Mitsubishi for events which has good quality speed and predictable costs as it’s a totally different method of printing but limited in size of print and lastly as someone else said I have a smaller printer for everyday stuff. A good calibrated workflow is essential.

Short answer is if you’re trying to save money use a lab but if like me you think the print process is all part of creating an image then just do it. Photographs have much more impact as large prints than they do on a screen.
 
I can't thank enough everyone for the replies!
So much useful information.
I will have to do a bit of reading before I get into it then. My main issue with printing from labs is that prints arrive a bit dark and the paper isn't to my liking. Someone mentioned also screen calibration, something I wasnt aware of.
I'll start off by choosing a better Lab, maybe send different exposures of the image I want to print like a couple small images in a4 page and if I'm still not satisfied I'll buy a printer.
Although I think I'll end up buying one anyway.

Thanks all so much for your time
 
Marino said:
I can't thank enough everyone for the replies!
So much useful information.
I will have to do a bit of reading before I get into it then. My main issue with printing from labs is that prints arrive a bit dark and the paper isn't to my liking. Someone mentioned also screen calibration, something I wasnt aware of.
I'll start off by choosing a better Lab, maybe send different exposures of the image I want to print like a couple small images in a4 page and if I'm still not satisfied I'll buy a printer.
Although I think I'll end up buying one anyway.

Thanks all so much for your time
Click to expand...

In one regard, as you say the prints are a bit dark(compared to the screen?), screen calibration is highly important.

Yes, you can try by 'hit & miss' trials but using a calibrator will remove doubt! So long term allowing some budget for that will be beneficial whether you stick with lab prints and/or your own printer.

Having said that can you please tell us the make & model number of your monitor.
 
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I print my own on an Epson xp-950 and use Galerie Prestige Smooth Gloss paper. Not the chedapest way but setting up for quality -paper type-size - orintation etc to me is part of photgography.
I ask myself if you send away to have printed they were not there when the photo was taken , so how do they know the colours are exact or do they guess?
 
Marino said:
I was thinking of even buying darkroom equipment as i have plenty of space in the garage.
But with the paper and film prices so high i dont think it's worth it at the moment.
Click to expand...
May I suggest that you clarify costs of consumables, particularly inkjets and decent quality paper before making a decision.

I have , atm, two printing options .
The traditional darkroom print and scanning/ inkjet print.

I’m actually going to go 100% darkroom , primarily because I prefer the process.

I have however actually calculated the costs ( take into account that I live in France so prices may or may not be comparable with the uk) of both methods based on ilford products for darkroom and genuine canon products for inkjet printing

With everything taken into account , the differences were literally coppers.

Cost is not my reason for choosing one method over the other though without doubt the fact that I pay almost the same for inkjet printing which I’m not keen on over wetprinting which I enjoy, the choice to go whole hog with the latter is an easier one.

I only mention these points as you mention that you have space to make a darkroom and give yourself that option.

Just another pointer, much as wetprinting had drawbacks, the most frustrating part of inkjet printing for me personally was color casts ( I shoot exclusively black and white film)

Even with colour, calibration can be a real pita.

I wish you well with whatever you choose .
My advice is take your time. Read through the feedback that you’re receiving, do plenty of homework especially on costs and ultimately take the route that is going to please you the most ( ie not just from a cost aspect!)
 
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Unless you are going to use them regularly bubble jet printers will dry up. I used to print my own & have had several printers fail because I hadn't used them for a few months.
Until last year Aldi had a photoprinting service that used professional paper/ink & gave great results at less cost than printing at home (34p for an A4 print). Sadly this service has now stopped & I've not managed to find an alternative that comes close on price.
 
Marino said:
samsung s24f352fhu is what I have.
Click to expand...
Seems like a decent spec'ed one with a type of IPS screen, which are seen as the best these days when it comes to calibration.
 
One option to reduce inkjet printing costs is to use a CIS, Continuous Ink System. If going down that route I would first decide on wether you would be happy with dye based or pigment based inks. My last Epson pigment based printer could produce glossy prints, but not with such a high gloss as dye based inks could. With certain papers dye inks could theoretically last 20 years, but no where as long as with pigment. Once you've decided on the ink type, look for a printer CIS supporting the ink you prefer and match it to a suitable printer. Unless it was just me, I found a paper profile made a bigger difference than calibrating the screen. I used to enjoy printing, and it obviously beat lab prints when speed was required, but haven't for over 7 years now. Now no printing other than letters and invoices, and simply FTP jpg's to either an agency or customer.
 
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Petrochemist said:
Unless you are going to use them regularly bubble jet printers will dry up. I used to print my own & have had several printers fail because I hadn't used them for a few months.
Until last year Aldi had a photoprinting service that used professional paper/ink & gave great results at less cost than printing at home (34p for an A4 print). Sadly this service has now stopped & I've not managed to find an alternative that comes close on price.
Click to expand...
Those printers that failed, what brand where they?

I’ve heard tbst Epson heads clog if not used for awhile.
I’ve always had canon printers, the present one being a pro100s,and never had issues even after 6 months of sitting unused.
 
Asha said:
Those printers that failed, what brand where they?

I’ve heard tbst Epson heads clog if not used for awhile.
I’ve always had canon printers, the present one being a pro100s,and never had issues even after 6 months of sitting unused.
Click to expand...

I have an Epson R3000 A3+ printer which I use about twice a year, haven't had the heads clog.
 
Asha said:
Those printers that failed, what brand where they?

I’ve heard tbst Epson heads clog if not used for awhile.
I’ve always had canon printers, the present one being a pro100s,and never had issues even after 6 months of sitting unused.
Click to expand...
Epsom was certainly the most recent of them, but I think the earliest ones I had the issue with were other brands I can't remember which (years ago now).
 
I print at home and it can be a love hate thing and it's expensive but there are two big plus points...

- You are in control of quality.
- You don't have to wait for someone to do and deliver your prints. You can take pictures on a day out and have the prints in your hand in the evening.

I'd say go for it but be prepared for some frustration :D
 
:plus1:

Be prepared to use a few bits of paper in your first forays into home printing until you find exactly what you have to do to make the printout match what you are seeing on the screen. I have never been able to match my monitors with the printer so my method is to get everything the way I want it on screen then make it too bright and hey presto, the printout comes out just right; it's really not a very scientific way of doing it.
 
One thing I've learned is not to switch the printer off after using it, because every time you start it up it goes through a cleaning routine which uses even MORE ink...........

In general I use it mainly for printing letters and invoices, not photo prints, although it is quite good at the latter as well. I use DSCL for most of my photo printing.
 
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ShinySideUp said:
:plus1:

Be prepared to use a few bits of paper in your first forays into home printing until you find exactly what you have to do to make the printout match what you are seeing on the screen. I have never been able to match my monitors with the printer so my method is to get everything the way I want it on screen then make it too bright and hey presto, the printout comes out just right; it's really not a very scientific way of doing it.
Click to expand...

In regard to my experience and expanding on my post #7

I calibrate my monitor and the commercially made prints are a good match to what I see on my screen......so something is working right for me ;)

In regard to my new ET-8550 and the Epson Print Layout software. I started my journey of print by printing known reference images ( available from the Northlight Images website) onto Epson papers. And was delighted with the screen to print matching quality.

I then print a few of my own images and well pleased with them......looking at one now on my desk easel :D

Epson Print Layout is a superb bit of software and though limit to function with the higher end Epson's, the ET-8550 does work with it and provides a 'softproof' function as a matter of routine.

In summary, everything just works and until I try non Epson papers I am happy with the printer and software to make the prints.

PS AFAIK the EPL software works for the P700, P900 and some(all) of the top end wide format Epson models. To anyone who has the ET-8550 or other Epson models, do try it for yourself :)
 
Box Brownie said:
In regard to my experience and expanding on my post #7

I calibrate my monitor and the commercially made prints are a good match to what I see on my screen......so something is working right for me ;)

In regard to my new ET-8550 and the Epson Print Layout software. I started my journey of print by printing known reference images ( available from the Northlight Images website) onto Epson papers. And was delighted with the screen to print matching quality.

I then print a few of my own images and well pleased with them......looking at one now on my desk easel :D

Epson Print Layout is a superb bit of software and though limit to function with the higher end Epson's, the ET-8550 does work with it and provides a 'softproof' function as a matter of routine.

In summary, everything just works and until I try non Epson papers I am happy with the printer and software to make the prints.

PS AFAIK the EPL software works for the P700, P900 and some(all) of the top end wide format Epson models. To anyone who has the ET-8550 or other Epson models, do try it for yourself :)
Click to expand...

I haven't tried EPL yet but I installed it and started it up and it does recognise my printer so I'll have a look at it during the week.
 
ShinySideUp said:
I haven't tried EPL yet but I installed it and started it up and it does recognise my printer so I'll have a look at it during the week.
Click to expand...

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it.

FWIW it automatically added itself to my old PS v6.12 as a plugin and I did not realise.....that will make things easier as I currently finalise my files in PS. I have manually added it as an external program in DxO PL5, as well.

IMO it does seem straightforward and intuitive, I have only used it for the past few days and made my aforementioned prints.

But there are some older YouTube videos about it under Epson Print Academy.

PS you might find this article interesting
photopxl.com

Epson Print Layout - Printing Made Simple - PXL Print Series - PhotoPXL

Dan Steinhardt, Epson Marketing Director and Kevin Raber take you for a tour of the desktop and IOS versions of Epson Print Layout
photopxl.com photopxl.com
A discussion between Ken Raber and Dan Stainhardt (Marketing Manager at Epson America)

And the video I learned the most from is also here on the Tube (as well as embedded in the above page ;)
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dp8mrMl4hs



PPS and FWIW as far as I know the UK/EU version 1.5.6 is different from the USA version as in the 'installed' papers are a tad different to reflect different paper sizes between each side of the pond :thinking: So, for any other ET-8550 users make sure to download EPL from the Epson UK site under the P700 or P900 (or other high end models where it is shown as the available extra software.
 
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ShinySideUp said:
:plus1:

Be prepared to use a few bits of paper in your first forays into home printing until you find exactly what you have to do to make the printout match what you are seeing on the screen. I have never been able to match my monitors with the printer so my method is to get everything the way I want it on screen then make it too bright and hey presto, the printout comes out just right; it's really not a very scientific way of doing it.
Click to expand...

The biggest issue I've faced was when I changed my PC and at the same time changed my HP printer to an Epson and changed paper too. I then suffered from dark prints and when I googled it I found lots of Epson users struggling with the same issue. Other printers may suffer this or other issues but I was researching Epson so lots of Epson issues is what I saw. I never really got to the bottom of why prints which we perfectly nice from one PC and a HP suddenly looked like they'd been taken in low light with another PC and an Epson but after tearing my hair out with settings and drivers I eventually found a work around.

What I learned from all that and the paper and ink and money I wasted was that if there's any doubt about the output there's no point risking an A4 let alone an A3, do a small test print first. You can fit a lot of test prints on an A4 sheet :D

The only other issue I've had is when my printer came up with an error message as the waste ink was full. I downloaded a one time error code fix and fitted an external printer potty, and this was very easy to do. The only downside is that I can now see how much ink these things waste.
 
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Some time back I read or heard that the dye inks for Canon's Pixma Pro printers were supposed to last for 300 years. Anyone interested could Google it, of course.
 
Winslowe said:
Some time back I read or heard that the dye inks for Canon's Pixma Pro printers were supposed to last for 300 years. Anyone interested could Google it, of course.
Click to expand...
Probably about 10,000 years less than the plastic the cartridges are made of; shame they don't make it easier to refill them. It costs me about £200 to replace all the cartridges in my printer and the old ones just go in the bin as no one recycles Epson cartridges, mores the pity.
 
ShinySideUp said:
Probably about 10,000 years less than the plastic the cartridges are made of; shame they don't make it easier to refill them. It costs me about £200 to replace all the cartridges in my printer and the old ones just go in the bin as no one recycles Epson cartridges, mores the pity.
Click to expand...

Yup. One of the cartridges in my Epson R2880 went today and of course there's no override as far as I know and Googling didn't help. All I wanted to do was print out some tickets but I can't even do that until the next set of cartridges arrive. I managed to save a bit buying on evil bay at £84.99 rather than Amazon at £115.
 
Marino said:
I can't thank enough everyone for the replies!
So much useful information.
I will have to do a bit of reading before I get into it then. My main issue with printing from labs is that prints arrive a bit dark and the paper isn't to my liking. Someone mentioned also screen calibration, something I wasnt aware of.
I'll start off by choosing a better Lab, maybe send different exposures of the image I want to print like a couple small images in a4 page and if I'm still not satisfied I'll buy a printer.
Although I think I'll end up buying one anyway.

Thanks all so much for your time
Click to expand...
It is definitely worth both calibrating your monitor and trying a few different labs/papers.
 
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Box Brownie said:
In regard to my experience and expanding on my post #7

I calibrate my monitor and the commercially made prints are a good match to what I see on my screen......so something is working right for me ;)

In regard to my new ET-8550 and the Epson Print Layout software. I started my journey of print by printing known reference images ( available from the Northlight Images website) onto Epson papers. And was delighted with the screen to print matching quality.

I then print a few of my own images and well pleased with them......looking at one now on my desk easel :D

Epson Print Layout is a superb bit of software and though limit to function with the higher end Epson's, the ET-8550 does work with it and provides a 'softproof' function as a matter of routine.

In summary, everything just works and until I try non Epson papers I am happy with the printer and software to make the prints.

PS AFAIK the EPL software works for the P700, P900 and some(all) of the top end wide format Epson models. To anyone who has the ET-8550 or other Epson models, do try it for yourself :)
Click to expand...
I am pleased your home printing set up works for you. I have very little need for printing, perhaps 5-10 per year plus a calendar so I use professional labs. (properly says a lot for the quality of my photography). Can ask what you do with all your prints.
 
Brentor said:
I am pleased your home printing set up works for you. I have very little need for printing, perhaps 5-10 per year plus a calendar so I use professional labs. (properly says a lot for the quality of my photography). Can ask what you do with all your prints.
Click to expand...
I know the question is not aimed at me but I'll reply anyway. I print out my very best photographs, ones I am truly happy with (and that's not many), so that at some time in the future, when I'm long gone, my offspring can see what I did without trawling through thousands of images on my computer. As prints, they do not need refreshing, they do not need backing up (if they burn down, I don't suppose anyone will care much about a few photographs anyway), they do not need to be moved to the next new thing in media storage; basically, they do not need to be molly-coddled. Once printed and kept in a suitable folder in the dark, they are around until there is no one left that I know that would be the slightest bit interested in them and if they don't burn or get wet, they should be good for three hundred years or more -- I doubt anyone could say that about cloud storage, hard drives or even computers.
 
Brentor said:
I am pleased your home printing set up works for you. I have very little need for printing, perhaps 5-10 per year plus a calendar so I use professional labs. (properly says a lot for the quality of my photography). Can ask what you do with all your prints.
Click to expand...

No problem :)
As mentioned I have used Trade Canvas Print for both my prints and latterly canvases for exhibition and sales. But have until I got the new printer printed very little other than 6x4 for the white board.

Of the few, so far I have printed to put on my desk easel (it sits on the sideboard) my OH has suggested that she would like a some framed up and hung in the stair well and perhaps one or two in other rooms. I intend to print more of my better ones just for personal satisfaction (NB A very few of my best I have allocated to Limited Edition Prints...........so unless I keep one of them for myself I will not be printing those for my personal usage)

Another reason I wanted this printer was in regard to the Exhibitions ~ I also offer greetings cards and got some lab printed but going forwards I wanted the print small batches of a wider range of images. This printer will allow me to do that.

Oh, quite apart from that it is a great SoHo printer too.....with the large ink tanks ;)
ShinySideUp said:
I know the question is not aimed at me but I'll reply anyway. I print out my very best photographs, ones I am truly happy with (and that's not many), so that at some time in the future, when I'm long gone, my offspring can see what I did without trawling through thousands of images on my computer. As prints, they do not need refreshing, they do not need backing up (if they burn down, I don't suppose anyone will care much about a few photographs anyway), they do not need to be moved to the next new thing in media storage; basically, they do not need to be molly-coddled. Once printed and kept in a suitable folder in the dark, they are around until there is no one left that I know that would be the slightest bit interested in them and if they don't burn or get wet, they should be good for three hundred years or more -- I doubt anyone could say that about cloud storage, hard drives or even computers.
Click to expand...
A very good point, I enjoy seeing my images on screen but having the physical prints (as it is with the ones I have had printed commercially) is nice to have, be it on rotational display in our home or as you say boxed for posterity. :)
 
Unless you have very specific reasons or need instant gratification, its usually much easier to outsource to people who have printing down to a fine art, and if its not up to scratch, its their problem to sort out assuming your screens are calibrated and are working to their guidelines.
 
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