Canon FF mirrorless...

[RedRobin]

For a lot of people it doesn’t matter how good Sony is compared with Canon/Nikon in either mirrorless or compared to their DSLRs. For people with a relatively extensive system the cost to change is prohibitive. For me to change to Sony, with the closest equivalents to what I have now would cost £22000. If I sold all my Canon gear it wouldn’t even come close to that figure and I would drop from 2 bodies to one so no back up. It’s simply a non starter. To get someone like me to change Sony would have to offer lenses such as 400 f4/5.6 or 500 f5.6 to bring the cost down a bit and I can’t see them doing that.

....HEAR! HEAR!!

Exactly! And the bottom line is not so much the camera gear but how good your photographs are.

High quality camera gear and choosing the right combo for the subject ENABLES the photographer to take the best he or she (or 'it' to be politically correct?) can. Canon already offer this and have no need to rush to satisfy the likes of the Sony fanboys who are posting in this thread.

 

[snerkler]

Sony has the superior lens line up.personaly I wouldn't put ergonomics ahead of lens line up and the ergonomics ain't as bad as people think.

What's more important than lens selection?

Both are important of course, there’s no point having the best camera ergonomically with no lenses, but likewise there’s no point having a system with all the lenses in the world if you don’t like the body/?find it awkward to use. The A7’s are the latte for me, it doesn’t matter how good the Sony lenses are I can’t comfotably fit my fingers between the grip and lens so it’s just a no go, simple as that. It’s not a case of “I could get used to it”, the system is just not for me

 

[Riz_Guru]

If you’d have read all my post, you wouldn’t have needed to ask.
Stop treating it like a sparring match and treat it like a discussion between adults

This thread should be a discussion about the positives and negatives of the new EOS R body / system. I only asked a question, it’s not a big deal as there is more to life than cameras etc.

From my viewpoint there seem’s to be more negatives than positives for the EOS R so it’s only fair to discuss them right?

No sparing match in this thread, what’s to spar about?

 

[jerry12953]

For a lot of people it doesn’t matter how good Sony is compared with Canon/Nikon in either mirrorless or compared to their DSLRs. For people with a relatively extensive system the cost to change is prohibitive. For me to change to Sony, with the closest equivalents to what I have now would cost £22000. If I sold all my Canon gear it wouldn’t even come close to that figure and I would drop from 2 bodies to one so no back up. It’s simply a non starter. To get someone like me to change Sony would have to offer lenses such as 400 f4/5.6 or 500 f5.6 to bring the cost down a bit and I can’t see them doing that.

That's a very realistic assessment of the problems of changing systems. And then there's the learning curve involved in using the new system

 

[woof woof]

If you’d have read all my post, you wouldn’t have needed to ask.
Stop treating it like a sparring match and treat it like a discussion between adults

Adults that are happy with what's looking like a mediocre body with the only apparent saving graces being hoped for compatibility with legacy EF lenses and an interesting f2 zoom costing over £3k?

Yes the M series has sold well but hopefully people on this site care a little more than to be overly interested in the fact that Canon have sold a lot of mediocre APS-C cameras with how many native lenses? Three is it? They've sold a lot of them, so what?

This seems to be developing into an argument and splitting into people defending what looks like a pretty average body that makes the most sense if viewed as a mirrorless camera for people who must have a Canon mirrorless (for legacy lenses, brand loyalty or a belief that this is the ergonomic answer to life the universe and everything) and people who see a half ar$ed attempt that for whatever reason or reasons (lack of tech or hobbling to protect other models) doesn't seem to be challenging the market leader on spec or price.

I see it all as rather disappointing but for those who will buy by the boat load, I wish them well

 

[Phil V]

This thread should be a discussion about the positives and negatives of the new EOS R body / system. I only asked a question, it’s not a big deal as there is more to life than cameras etc.

From my viewpoint there seem’s to be more negatives than positives for the EOS R so it’s only fair to discuss them right?

No sparing match in this thread, what’s to spar about?

Read the whole of my post again, then your snip of it and your question.

Can you see I’d given my answer before you asked your question.

There’s nothing wrong with ‘discussing’ the negatives, but constantly repeating points that have been discussed to death ceases to be a discussion.

 

[Phil V]

Adults that are happy with what's looking like a mediocre body with the only apparent saving graces being hoped for compatibility with legacy EF lenses and an interesting f2 zoom costing over £3k?

This whole thread can be summed up by:
It’s not as good as the Sony

No it’s not, but it’s probably as good as they could deliver, and good enough to satisfy most potential buyers.

Yeah but they should have aimed higher

This is either the best they could do, or what they deemed good enough for their customers who will likely buy it.

Yeah... but it’s not as good as the Sony...

Rinse

Repeat.


Not adult!

Not what I’d describe as discussion.

 

[jonneymendoza]

But in my case here there is only one shop that sells the hammer. You gunna buy that one or not bother at all? Hehe

....Slightly off-topic but about the under-estimated importance of ergonomics : My hammers are all chosen, apart from appropriate weight for the job, for their ergonomics! So are my Japanese garden tools such as secateurs, shears, loppers, spade. Not solely for their ergonomics but ergo plays a very major part in my choice. Same applies to my cars.

So now you have heard of someone who does choose tools with better ergonomics in mind.

 

[simonbarker]

Sony has the superior lens line up.personaly I wouldn't put ergonomics ahead of lens line up and the ergonomics ain't as bad as people think.

I don't think that's how most people see it, yes neither Canon or Nikon has anywhere near the native lens line up Sony has and it'll take them years just to catch up but that doesn't really matter when you can adapt without serious compromise and their existing lens ranges are more complete than Sony's.

The better way to look at it would probably be to think what Sony offers as a system, for example you go with Sony you get the best eye detect system with plenty of good portrait lenses but that's not much consolation to someone who needs long lenses as you pretty much only have the 400mm, 100-400mm and 70-200mm or find them uncomfortable to use.

 

[twist]

I don't think that's how most people see it, yes neither Canon or Nikon has anywhere near the native lens line up Sony has and it'll take them years just to catch up but that doesn't really matter when you can adapt without serious compromise and their existing lens ranges are more complete than Sony's.

The better way to look at it would probably be to think what Sony offers as a system, for example you go with Sony you get the best eye detect system with plenty of good portrait lenses but that's not much consolation to someone who needs long lenses as you pretty much only have the 400mm, 100-400mm and 70-200mm.

And the 1.4 TC and 2x TC.

 

[woof woof]

This whole thread can be summed up by:
It’s not as good as the Sony

No it’s not, but it’s probably as good as they could deliver, and good enough to satisfy most potential buyers.

Yeah but they should have aimed higher

This is either the best they could do, or what they deemed good enough for their customers who will likely buy it.

Yeah... but it’s not as good as the Sony...

Rinse

Repeat.


Not adult!

Not what I’d describe as discussion.

If you want adult discussion Phil then start by taking a look in the mirror

I created this thread to follow developments and read the views of others and yes that involves a few heated views now and again and yes things sometimes look like Groundhog day for a few pages but usually things move on.

At the moment things are maybe stagnating a bit but maybe things will be a bit more interesting when we get some more independent reviews and real world user reports.

At the mo though, I'm distinctly underwhelmed.

 

[Riz_Guru]

This whole thread can be summed up by:
It’s not as good as the Sony

No it’s not, but it’s probably as good as they could deliver, and good enough to satisfy most potential buyers.

Yeah but they should have aimed higher

This is either the best they could do, or what they deemed good enough for their customers who will likely buy it.

Yeah... but it’s not as good as the Sony...

Rinse

Repeat.


Not adult!

Not what I’d describe as discussion.

Ahhh I remember a time when Sony faced the same criticism, it’s not as good as DSLR’s, not enough lenses, poor AF etc
Now the tables have turned, and I see various forums including this one where both Canon & Nikon threads are getting the same type of comments...

Taking from experience, until Canon release their future bodies and flesh out the native RF lenses to a point where the masses are happy with, the negative critique will continue, my advice... get used to it.
It’s only banter and no need to take it to heart

 

[redhed17]

.... Do you honestly think that Canon are not going to offer all sorts of quality and feature competitive camera gear in both the near future and beyond?

We don't know, and neither do you. The odds are they probably will, but nobody outside Canon now what they will do, and how good it will be compared to their competitors. For know the camera and lenses send out mixed messages. Here is an entry level camera which is not as good as their competitors, for whatever reason, again nobody knows if it strategic planning or lack of technological capability, but here are some high end top dollar lenses too. For some it will not matter that they are ever as good or better than their competitors.

And all within a system which can be tailored to a skilled photographer's individual needs.

Can it also be tailored to a non skilled photographer?

You are beginning to sound like a spoilt young kid who wants everything yesterday and nothing is good enough. I'm beginning to wonder how good your photography actually is - I have not seen or noticed any.

Ah, in a thread discussing the equipment you decide to get personal and question someone's photography skills. Did you go and see if they had posted any images so you could feel a bit superior btw!

I don't know about spoilt child, but you are coming over to me like a Canon fanboy to me. They have done nothing wrong, but even if they have, it is a plan, because they can't be fallible as they are market leader, and anyway, they will make it all perfect at some point.

 

[Phil V]

If you want adult discussion Phil then start by taking a look in the mirror

From the guy who constantly accuses me of being personal?

What is your justification?

 

[woof woof]

Ahhh I remember a time when Sony faced the same criticism, it’s not as good as DSLR’s, not enough lenses, poor AF etc
Now the tables have turned, and I see various forums including this one where both Canon & Nikon threads are getting the same type of comments...

Taking from experience, until Canon release their future bodies and flesh out the native RF lenses to a point where the masses are happy with, the negative critique will continue, my advice... get used to it.
It’s only banter and no need to take it to heart

Yup. And as we're talking hammers, nail, hammer, head. Nothing should be above criticism, even Canon. That may come as a shock to some

 

[jerry12953]

The more this discussion goes on the more pointless it seems. No-one has yet seen an actual production model of this camera let alone tested it properly. Until then it's all just guesswork.

 

[woof woof]

From the guy who constantly accuses me of being personal?

What is your justification?

Because yet again you're needlessly argumentative to the point of abruptness and rudeness. And no I don't constantly accuse you of being personal but I have on a small number of occasions pointed out that you persistently and deliberately misrepresent what others say in an argumentative, belittling and bullying way. If you want adult discussion then maybe you could act like an adult yourself and treat others with a little courtesy and decency now and again.

 

[woof woof]

The more this discussion goes on the more pointless it seems. No-one has yet seen an actual production model of this camera let alone tested it properly. Until then it's all just guesswork.

Guesswork based on the known spec and the blogs/reviews so far... Maybe not quite crystal ball gazing but maybe getting there.

 

[Phil V]

Yup. And as we're talking hammers, nail, hammer, head. Nothing should be above criticism, even Canon. That may come as a shock to some

Childish. You ought to be ashamed.

There’s no evidence of Canon fanboy-ism in this thread, just people (as above) stating that it’s probably as good as they expected.

This despite the constant sniping from the Sony fanboys.

As I’ve said repeatedly (even then being accused of being a fanboy) I’ve previously owned many brands of camera, and recommended other brands many times, but I’m settled into a ‘system’ that’s not perfect, however the cost of switching is prohibitive.

Bizarrely, from my POV, it doesn’t matter that much; they’re tools for making pictures not toys for playing top trumps about the features.

 

[Phil V]

Because yet again you're needlessly argumentative to the point of abruptness and rudeness.

Where?

 

[Gaz J]

Yup. And as we're talking hammers, nail, hammer, head. Nothing should be above criticism, even Canon. That may come as a shock to some

Is that an ergonomically designed hammer that fits the hand?

 

[meduk1]

Think long and hard before you make your purchase, personally I would go with the Sony A7 III and some GM lenses

Not going to rush into anything, likely wait a few months until reviews are in and it’s a bit more available. Will be keeping a close eye on people’s views on them all

 

[Raymond Lin]

Is that an ergonomically designed hammer that fits the hand?

Thor’s hammer?

 

[RedRobin]

But in my case here there is only one shop that sells the hammer. You gunna buy that one or not bother at all? Hehe

....To be polite and answer your question : I wouldn't bother buying a hammer if that shop didn't sell one which I liked and furthermore regardless of how cheap it was. I would wait and seek a hammer to my liking elsewhere and probably made by a brand I trust.

Canon's current EOS-R body doesn't offer enough advantages over my EOS M5 regarding its spec (especially fps) to justify me buying one but I have every confidence in future FF mirrorless bodies being released by Canon and am in no hurry as I am more than satisfied with my 1DX-2.

A mirrorless replacement for my 7D-2 might interest me but only depending on how it would compare with a 7D-3 if produced. And depending if I like its EVF.

Regardless of technical spec and features I personally don't like the Sony because it is ergonomically too small and awkward (rather like my Canon M5 is) and I have yet to look through an EVF which I like. Those two factors alone are a complete deal breaker for me because they are fundamental to shooting successful pictures with a camera.

What I am really pleased about is that Canon's first mirrorless FF body (like the Nikon Z) is larger size than the other brands - I was worried they might have followed Sony etc (and even their own m5) and gone smaller.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Guesswork based on the known spec and the blogs/reviews so far... Maybe not quite crystal ball gazing but maybe getting there.

And actual raw samples to boot.

 

[RedRobin]

Can it also be tailored to a non skilled photographer?

....Why would a 'non skilled' photographer be interested in buying such a Canon/Nikon/Sony etc level of camera body? And especially when it would also mean buying expensive (but high quality) lenses.

Ah, in a thread discussing the equipment you decide to get personal and question someone's photography skills. Did you go and see if they had posted any images so you could feel a bit superior btw!

....I haven't found any to form an opinion about but you miss my point that his comment and attitude puts his skills into question. If I got what you consider to be 'personal' it was only in response to his attitude.

Btw, I checked out your signature link to your travel pictures, Ian, and they are really excellent in my opinion (as a retired-but-hardwired professional Art Director).

I don't know about spoilt child, but you are coming over to me like a Canon fanboy to me. They have done nothing wrong, but even if they have, it is a plan, because they can't be fallible as they are market leader, and anyway, they will make it all perfect at some point.

....I am a Canon fanboy and am not in the slightest bit ashamed of it - It is a brand I have experienced since the first EOS 650 and which I have great confidence in - It suits my photography.

Surely you should know as a serious photographer that there is no such thing as a perfect camera or lens or indeed tripod, head, etc etc.

 

[Deleted member 49428]

Worldwide sales of mirrorless cameras.

Interesting. I can only find the number for Japan, can you point to the worldwide numbers

 

[Phil V]

Interesting. I can only find the number for Japan, can you point to the worldwide numbers

No, but I have seen them previously.

 

[RedRobin]

Because yet again you're needlessly argumentative to the point of abruptness and rudeness. And no I don't constantly accuse you of being personal but I have on a small number of occasions pointed out that you persistently and deliberately misrepresent what others say in an argumentative, belittling and bullying way. If you want adult discussion then maybe you could act like an adult yourself and treat others with a little courtesy and decency now and again.

....Your post was aimed @Phil V and I have certainly experienced his 'rudeness' first hand and on more than one occasion, but it was in a political discussion thread on TP and I put it down to his passion and his frustration with my 'ignorance' or unwillingness to back up my gut feelings with hard facts.

However, in this thread I see no real evidence of him being "needlessly argumentative to the point of abruptness and rudeness". And I am talking as someone who has experienced it directly and been looking out for it.

Believe me, Phil can be FAR more aggressive and personal etc than you think he is being in this thread!

I have many good friends who I disagree with but they are still my friends. Phil and I don't know each other outside TP.

 

[RedRobin]

Hey guys!!

My hammer is bigger than yours!

 

[redhed17]

....Why would a 'non skilled' photographer be interested in buying such a Canon/Nikon/Sony etc level of camera body? And especially when it would also mean buying expensive (but high quality) lenses.

People have money, people can buy what they want. You don't need to be 'skilled' to buy or use. And seeing the specs of this first entry into FF mirrorless being akin to the 6D/6DII, they are maybe casting a wider net than those who are 'skilled'.

....I haven't found any to form an opinion about but you miss my point that his comment and attitude puts his skills into question. If I got what you consider to be 'personal' it was only in response to his attitude.

Can't say I have ever gone and looked to see whether anyone as posted pictures so I could make judgement to undermine their opinion. But each to their own eh!

Btw, I checked out your signature link to your travel pictures, Ian, and they are really excellent in my opinion (as a retired-but-hardwired professional Art Director).

Thank you, very kind.

....I am a Canon fanboy and am not in the slightest bit ashamed of it - It is a brand I have experienced since the first EOS 650 and which I have great confidence in - It suits my photography.

Surely you should know as a serious photographer that there is no such thing as a perfect camera or lens or indeed tripod, head, etc etc.

You don't know how serious I am! I try to find humour in most things.

Nothing is perfect, but you find in situations like this when a new product is announced/released people can discuss the pro's and cons of design choices, and how they compare to the opposition, but the fanboys either don't admit to anything wrong or deficient. And if they do, it is probably part of some plan than we mere mortals are not intelligent enough to understand, but they can. And it will all be OK at some unspecified point in the future anyway with no evidence to support that thinking. What is that phrase, "Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

Glad that you are happy being a fanboy.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Interesting. I can only find the number for Japan, can you point to the worldwide numbers

@twist

 

[Gaz J]

What’s wrong with being a fanboy of any system? If your producing images that you like and are happy with your choice of system then why not defend it. There’s always something better out there in certain aspects but not in everything and you can pick and choose which bit you want to prove the point.

I’ll admit that I defend Canon because I think that their recent releases, R body aside, are extremely good. I don’t think that they are that far off the pace with their sensors either compared to Nikon yet it’s a common bashing point for people who keep bringing up the D850 against the 5D4 conveniently forgetting when they’re doing it that the 1DX2 has a better sensor than the D5. Or it has if you only take certain aspects of it into account which is what a lot of others do when they decide what’s “best”

 

[jonneymendoza]

There's a lot wrong personal on being a Fanboy but that's for another thread

What’s wrong with being a fanboy of any system? If your producing images that you like and are happy with your choice of system then why not defend it. There’s always something better out there in certain aspects but not in everything and you can pick and choose which bit you want to prove the point.

I’ll admit that I defend Canon because I think that their recent releases, R body aside, are extremely good. I don’t think that they are that far off the pace with their sensors either compared to Nikon yet it’s a common bashing point for people who keep bringing up the D850 against the 5D4 conveniently forgetting when they’re doing it that the 1DX2 has a better sensor than the D5. Or it has if you only take certain aspects of it into account which is what a lot of others do when they decide what’s “best”

 

[Deleted member 49428]

@twist

?????????

 

[jonneymendoza]

He has link's proving Phil wrong.

?????????

 

[redhed17]

What’s wrong with being a fanboy of any system? If your producing images that you like and are happy with your choice of system then why not defend it. There’s always something better out there in certain aspects but not in everything and you can pick and choose which bit you want to prove the point.

As long as you know you are a 'fanboy' (or 'fangirl' ) then that is OK to defend what you use because you are obviously enjoy using it, have taken the time to choose wisely and hopefully get results you are happy with.

But why feel the need to argue in defence of a company's products even if you know that they may not be the best or have not done a good job or made a poor/baffling design choices?

Btw, I'm aware that there are such severe cases of fandom that mistakes can't be seen, never mind acknowledged or admitted to. But these are the people who need a reality realignment imho. And when they talk BS they need to be pulled up on it.

If everything is seen as perfect then where is the desire or inspiration to make changes and advance!

 

[twist]

He has link's proving Phil wrong.

Don't make me a part of this.

 

[Gaz J]

As long as you know you are a 'fanboy' (or 'fangirl' ) then that is OK to defend what you use because you are obviously enjoy using it, have taken the time to choose wisely and hopefully get results you are happy with.

But why feel the need to argue in defence of a company's products even if you know that they may not be the best or have not done a good job or made a poor/baffling design choices?

Btw, I'm aware that there are such severe cases of fandom that mistakes can't be seen, never mind acknowledged or admitted to. But these are the people who need a reality realignment imho. And when they talk BS they need to be pulled up on it.

If everything is seen as perfect then where is the desire or inspiration to make changes and advance!

What is “best”? It doesn’t exist. Not Sony, Canon or Nikon or any other brand. It’s all about degrees of suitability for an individual and that includes shortcomings. So my 5D4 was the best for me when I bought it given it’s intended use. I’ve now got a D850 also. Is the Nikon a better overall camera? Yes, probably. Will it be better than the 5D4 being used for the same purpose. I’m not sure because ergonomically it’s flawed in my view and I feel that I can get the shot quicker with the 5D4 with a quality that, in real terms, is comparable with the Nikon.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Potential rx camera rumours.

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/features/canon-eos-rx-rumours-and-specs

Could come out before the Olympics?