Canon FF mirrorless...

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The first ‘useful’ post on the features of this camera. Well done Stewart (y)
....Not quite the first 'useful' post but certainly the first most in depth and revealing post about Canon's EOS R system and, even better, relayed from Canon's design engineers rather than just a hyperinterwebbynetter's 'review' primarily aimed at increasing the author's hit rate.

Very informative to anyone who is seriously interested in buying into the R aspect of the EOS system - Thankyou, Stewart @StewartR (y)
 
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I’m sure there’s a market for it, but it’s not worth 36 50mm 1.8 STM’s
I'm sure it'll sell so the question is how many :D

I do own a Minolta Rokkor 50mm f1.2 and I think it's a bit of a dual personality lens as it's funky and a bit Marmite wide open but just a nice old lens but still with personality and a look of its own when stopped down. I also own a modern Voigtlander 40mm f1.2 and it's a lot... better., in a technical way.

There's a part of me that thinks that this Canon 50mm f1.2 would be a more interesting lens if it's a bit more characterful and Marmite at f1.2 than technically good.

Looking at these samples I think I need to see more, but I wont be buying and I wouldn't if I had an R cos it costs more than I'll pay.
 
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Exactly.id rather have a heated debate about composition then gear
....That's absolutely fine but why keep interrupting this thread about a newly released piece of camera gear with your posts which are far from helpful and which encourage people to kick off?

Go and find or start a different thread to debate composition.

The only logical reason I can find for your behaviour in this thread is that as someone who moved from Canon to Sony you may be having regrets and you are now serving sour grapes. The way you consistently behave in this thread deserves a clip around the ear!
 
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The only logical reason I can find for your behaviour in this thread is that as someone who moved from Canon to Sony you may be having regrets and you are now serving sour grapes. The way you consistently behave in this thread deserves a clip around the ear!
Or maybe he's just passionate about the kit and its abilities. Nothing wrong with that. And I've seen no evidence of rampant fanboyism from Jonney in fact I think he's usually very fair.

Here's a radical thought, lets assume the best and not the worst and ask for clarification before kicking off, just for a page or two and see how it goes.

And a PS.
I can be a bit anal. I used to work in computers and I was then a quality manager and both of these things suited an obsessive like me, and I was a workaholic too.. I have high standards when it comes to trying and effort and I can sometimes judge manufacturers and kit in that light, as an obsessive workaholic, so I can at least begin to understand why people might have a rant or two about a feature they think should be there and isn't or about one that is there but maybe isn't quite good enough.
 
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You should see my current shopping list of things which have been announced recently but aren't get generally available. It's terrifying. Nikon 180-400, Sony 400/2.8, Fuji 200/2, Nikon 500 PF, Nikon Z system, Canon 400/2.8 III, Canon 600 III, Canon R system, .....

At least I think I will be able to resist the Nikon 58/0.95 when it's released.
 
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....That's absolutely fine but why keep interrupting this thread about a newly released piece of camera gear with your posts which are far from helpful and which encourage people to kick off?

Go and find or start a different thread to debate composition.

The only logical reason I can find for your behaviour in this thread is that as someone who moved from Canon to Sony you may be having regrets and you are now serving sour grapes. The way you consistently behave in this thread deserves a clip around the ear!
I have not posted much here for the last couple of days homie.

And infact if you check my recent threads i created, i ahve created ones that discuss my recent sports shots i have taken for the first time as well as some nsfw portaits to discuss with others where i can improve etc.

I have also been trolling around the photo sharing and critique pages on this forum too to gauge some interest in other peoples work and discussions
 
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I can be a bit anal. I used to work in computers and I was then a quality manager and both of these things suited an obsessive like me, and I was a workaholic too.. I have high standards when it comes to trying and effort and I can sometimes judge manufacturers and kit in that light, as an obsessive workaholic, so I can at least begin to understand why people might have a rant or two about a feature they think should be there and isn't or about one that is there but maybe isn't quite good enough.
....Constructive criticism is helpful to others but someone not being able to grasp the glaringly obvious fact that the EOS R system has a long way to go and in fact is clearly designed with developing its future in mind, seems to display a distinct lack of intelligence.

But quite apart from that, anyone disrupting discussion just "for fun" is also unhelpful. I shall refrain from spelling the word "unhelpful" in quite a different way!

Now, if you don't mind, I would like to go back to reading Stewart's relayed interview with Canon design engineers about the EOS R because one day I would like to buy one to fine tune my own EOS system and potentially further improve my ability to capture challenging wildlife pictures to then enjoy and share.
 
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Anyways i dont take @RedRobin seriously as he has admitted he is a canon fanboy.

It took me 2 years to finally move away from canon! i took my time and assest canon and sony to see if sony can truelly do everything plus more that my canon did and it does unfortunatly for you canon fanboys out there :(

I knew that mirrorless was that NEXT big tipping point for photography since film came into digital and unless Sony goes bankcrupt and stopped supporting E-mount. i wont switch to another system until the next BIG tipping point whatever that may be.

I look at canikon mirrorless system as a whole and ask myself. What does it offer that the sony doesnt that will drastically change and improve the way i shoot? The answer for me is none.

Ask the same question to a canon DSLR fanboy on what Nikon system offers that Canon doesnt back in the pre existing DSLR world and the answer again is none and thats why very rarely do Canon fanboys move to Nikon and vice versa.

Mirrorles is a brand new world we are entering with Sony having a 4-5 year head start and canikon entering that bubble offering nothing over the Sony for me.

What would have tempted me even the slightest to ditch sony for canon? Global shutter FF sensors..

But my feeling is that Sony will be the first push such tech out first so not really any reason again to go to canikon.

Anyways you guys should just take your camera and shoot some stuff or use your energy you use here to troll through meaninful articles and posts related to the art of photography. Home your energy, time and effort on to that.
 
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....Constructive criticism is helpful to others but someone not being able to grasp the glaringly obvious fact that the EOS R system has a long way to go and in fact is clearly designed with developing its future in mind, seems to display a distinct lack of intelligence.

But quite apart from that, anyone disrupting discussion just "for fun" is also unhelpful. I shall refrain from spelling the word "unhelpful" in quite a different way!

Now, if you don't mind, I would like to go back to reading Stewart's relayed interview with Canon design engineers about the EOS R because one day I would like to buy one to fine tune my own EOS system and potentially further improve my ability to capture challenging wildlife pictures to then enjoy and share.
I think you're being a bit harsh and maybe a touch too personal. Jonney is without doubt an intelligent guy but maybe just a bit more passionate than your average guy and IMO there's nothing wrong with getting a bit heated about the kit. Sure people can go a bit OTT sometimes but it's usually just because we're like kids with a new toy. Maybe. I personally see no harm, malice, fanboyism or lack of IQ in it.

I hope you enjoy the technical discussion and what the design guys say but I for one would enjoy this thread more if PLY would refrain from personal insults. Just a thought and as I said maybe we could try just for a page or two.
 
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I think everybody just needs to chill the #### out.
Lets agree to disagree and move on..... some prefer Sony, some prefer Canon.... (which only has 1 card slot). :D lol
 
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Logic goes out of the window again...
If you say so.

I never said the Canon R was the pinnacle of their technical ability - but they have missed the boat on some technological improvements; however don't ignore they're also leading on others.
You said it's a ridiculous assumption that they could put out a better camera, I said they could do better and that's not to say they didn't design the perfect camera for its intended market but that is a different argument.

Why would you assume I think Canon are 'always right' - sorry Simon that's just stupid. You clearly have a lack of understanding of my posts, again, take away the emotion, kick start the grey matter and use some logic rather than kneejerk reactions.
Your argument has been repeatedly their market position justifies their decisions and I have been repeatedly trying to tell you that's besides the point when we're considering an individual product and how it compares to the alternatives for something you'd actually want to use. You would do well to heed your own advice about logic and emotion as you clearly have a chip on your shoulder over the subject.
 
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.
It took me 2 years to finally move away from canon! i took my time and assest canon and sony to see if sony can truelly do everything plus more that my canon did and it does unfortunatly for you canon fanboys out there :(

I knew that mirrorless was that NEXT big tipping point for photography since film came into digital and unless Sony goes bankcrupt and stopped supporting E-mount. i wont switch to another system until the next BIG tipping point whatever that may be.

I look at canikon mirrorless system as a whole and ask myself. What does it offer that the sony doesnt that will drastically change and improve the way i shoot? The answer for me is none.

Ask the same question to a canon DSLR fanboy on what Nikon system offers that Canon doesnt back in the pre existing DSLR world and the answer again is none and thats why very rarely do Canon fanboys move to Nikon and vice versa.

Mirrorles is a brand new world we are entering with Sony having a 4-5 year head start and canikon entering that bubble offering nothing over the Sony for me.

What would have tempted me even the slightest to ditch sony for canon? Global shutter FF sensors..

But my feeling is that Sony will be the first push such tech out first so not really any reason again to go to canikon.

Anyways you guys should just take your camera and shoot some stuff or use your energy you use here to troll through meaninful articles and posts related to the art of photography. Home your energy, time and effort on to that.
....Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning - It is much appreciated but was not at all evident to me based on some of your posts, especially the unhelpful one-liners. Enough said, I think we can proceed in peace. :)

Anyways i dont take @RedRobin seriously as he has admitted he is a canon fanboy.
....As we discussed a long way back, your definition of a 'fanboy' is different from my own.

However, you are right to imply that someone (such as myself) who has spent a lot of money over time buying into the EOS system is in some ways 'trapped' in it. But I don't feel trapped because I actually enjoy using the photographic tools which Canon offer. At this time it is not practical for me to change camera system and in fact I have no desire to as my Canon gear serves me well - It's not perfect but no camera body or lens ever is and, like you perhaps, I would rather spend my time actually taking photos. Currently I have about 1,000 RAW images I need to edit!

:canon: :banana: :D
 
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I am a Sony fai boi and suffer from Sony GAS, Apple GAS, Car GAS and A/V Movie GAS :D
However I can sometimes also suffer from Fuji GAS, Canon GAS and Nikon GAS.:)
:sony:
 
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If you say so.

You said it's a ridiculous assumption that they could put out a better camera, I said they could do better.

Your argument has been repeatedly their market position justifies their decisions and I have been repeatedly trying to tell you that's besides the point when we're considering an individual product and how it compares to the alternatives for something you'd actually want to use. You would do well to heed your own advice about logic and emotion as you clearly have a chip on your should over the subject.
You’ve misread just about everything ive posted.

Could they have put out a ‘better’ camera? Of course

Could they have put out a ‘better’ camera for the market segment they were aiming for? No, this is almost certainly the pinnacle of the tech they can produce for the money.

Are they right or wrong to make those decisions (what features that they actually chose* to leave out for the proposed market)?

You seem to think you know better than them and I don’t. This isn’t because I’m blindly following them (again I don’t give a toss, it’s just a camera) but I’d sooner trust the decision making of the market leaders than some random bloke on the internet... here’s why... again.

These decisions aren’t random, they’re not a ‘wet finger’, they have a bigger budget for user research than you and I earn in a year, I know how user research works, and whilst it’s not an exact science, it’s more scientific than following some internet rants about single card slots...

*as opposed to the features you and others think they should have available but likely don’t - again, for the emotional responses, you conflate what they actually could have included with tech that they probably dont have. And as pointed out above, they’re ahead of the curve with some tech and behind with others, if it was as easy as some of you think to just produce ‘the best’ camera, they’d all be doing it. The fact that Sony produce cameras that are so far ahead in some areas whilst still lacking in others ought to make that obvious.
 
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Poor Pentax, they make really good cameras, ugly as sin, but very well built. Seems like they were never bothered with the rat race though
....A young friend of mine shoots on both film and digital Pentax and I think that some of his use of colour and composition is outstanding and in all lighting conditions too.

Here is a link to his Instagram page (he doesn't use Flickr or Twatter or Facebook etc) : https://www.instagram.com/alxmrlw/

It just goes to prove that the bottom line is what Ansel Adams said many many decades ago [in my signature below].
 
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Apologies if this has already been posted in this thread: I tried searching for it using a few different search terms but got no hits.

Anyway, it's an article titled "Canon EOS R: A deep-dive Q&A session with the Canon engineers", posted on Imaging Resource last week. There are some very interesting observations regarding why Canon made some of the design choices they did, and how those choices will affect overall system performance.

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/09/15/canon-eos-r-qa-with-the-canon-engineers
Cheers Stewart. Shame there's nothing about global electronic shutters or IBIS.

My take on IBIS - Canon left it out deliberately, as a shot at Sony. Canon has been saying for years that in-lens stabilisation is better, so they could hardly turn around and say Sony was right all along.
 
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Cheers Stewart. Shame there's nothing about global electronic shutters or IBIS.

My take on IBIS - Canon left it out deliberately, as a shot at Sony. Canon has been saying for years that in-lens stabilisation is better, so they could hardly turn around and say Sony was right all along.
Fair point... I think both systems have their merits..... :)
 
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....A young friend of mine shoots on both film and digital Pentax and I think that some of his use of colour and composition is outstanding and in all lighting conditions too.

Here is a link to his Instagram page (he doesn't use Flickr or Twatter or Facebook etc) : https://www.instagram.com/alxmrlw/

It just goes to prove that the bottom line is what Ansel Adams said many many decades ago [in my signature below].
That's exactly what I meant, they didn't seem to be big on keeping up with the Jones's - they have always been more for the photographer than the techie. Some nice stuff on there :)

Adams has a bunch of great quotes
 
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Cheers Stewart. Shame there's nothing about global electronic shutters or IBIS.

My take on IBIS - Canon left it out deliberately, as a shot at Sony. Canon has been saying for years that in-lens stabilisation is better, so they could hardly turn around and say Sony was right all along.
As I am sure most know, Canon brought out in lens stabilisation with the EOS range of lenses and said at the time each lens had to have specific hardware/software to have the best stabilisation characteristics, be a bit odd if they went back on that now with a mirrorless body that accepts EF IS lenses. Personally I think they have done the right thing by keeping it out of the body, it's made life very simple - If you buy any Canon body and attache an IS lens you will have stabilisation, if it doesnt have IS you dont have it, simples.
 
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Fair point... I think both systems have their merits..... :)
Yes, both in-body IBIS and in-lens stabilisation have clear advantages.

In-lens can be tailored to individual optics and handles the big shifts needed for longer lenses better, especially with full-frame sensors that are both heavier and need more movement. But it adds cost and can compromise optical design to the point where it's impractical in some lenses, such as the new ER 50/1.2 and 28-70/2.

On the other hand, IBIS is a one-off cost and works with any lens, albeit better with some than others.

Canon has an advantage though, in that they could add IBIS at any time and, at a stroke deliver a hybrid system with the best of both. Sony can't do that without first adding in-lens stabilisation to all their lenses.
 

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My take on IBIS - Canon left it out deliberately, as a shot at Sony. Canon has been saying for years that in-lens stabilisation is better, so they could hardly turn around and say Sony was right all along.
Here's another view. Cleaning Sony sensors with IBIS, especially with the EyeLead sticky spludger things, is no fun. I can't help wondering how robust the sensor mounting mechanism is.

It wouldn't surprise me if Sony don't care too much about this, because with their pace of iteration they probably don't expect people to use the same body for more than about 2 years. But it bothers me.
 
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They were just too late to the "digital party". Some of their lenses can compete with the best but the bodies seem a decade behind in ergonomics (not technology).
Pentax were to digital what Canon and Nikon are to mirrorless as in "We are fine as we are and don't need to get into this new fangled tech, it will never catch on" and by the time they realised how wrong they were it was nearly too late and they have been playing catch up ever since. As to the bodies, I much prefer my K-3II and K-1 ergonomics to any of the Canon bodies I have (or do) own but I guess that's a lot to do with familiarity.
 
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Cheers Stewart. Shame there's nothing about global electronic shutters or IBIS.

My take on IBIS - Canon left it out deliberately, as a shot at Sony. Canon has been saying for years that in-lens stabilisation is better, so they could hardly turn around and say Sony was right all along.
Fair point... I think both systems have their merits..... :)
....With reference to IBIS, I read recently that Canon design engineers are reported to have said that lens IS is best initiated in telephoto lenses in particular and that anyway, the R body had improved dealing with that information from the lens. Obviously due to greater focal length, telephoto and supertelephoto lenses can benefit more from IS than from IBIS, we are told. I have had a quick search but can't find my source right now < Apologies.

If shooting fast moving creatures from a tripod such as birds in flight, I often switch off IS on my 100-400mm II or 500mm II lenses (often with Extenders which slow down AF) because doing so further speeds up the autofocus tracking process. I would want to switch it off if in body and I think my mirrorless EOS M5 has that option (I may be totally mistaken because of the limited way I use my M5!).

So if Canon have IBIS in their mirrorless M-series, surely it is an option in their future mirrorless R offerings?
 
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Yes, both in-body IBIS and in-lens stabilisation have clear advantages.

In-lens can be tailored to individual optics and handles the big shifts needed for longer lenses better, especially with full-frame sensors that are both heavier and need more movement. But it adds cost and can compromise optical design to the point where it's impractical in some lenses, such as the new ER 50/1.2 and 28-70/2.

On the other hand, IBIS is a one-off cost and works with any lens, albeit better with some than others.

Canon has an advantage though, in that they could add IBIS at any time and, at a stroke deliver a hybrid system with the best of both. Sony can't do that without first adding in-lens stabilisation to all their lenses.
Sony does use OSS (IS) is their longer focal length lenses which is where stability is beneficial, for their shorter lenses, IBIS takes care of it. My thoughts are, that Canon will implement IBIS the same way Sony have, in that they will include lens IS on the longer lenses compared to shorter lens designs.
 
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Sony does use OSS (IS) is their longer focal length lenses which is where stability is beneficial, for their shorter lenses, IBIS takes care of it. My thoughts are, that Canon will implement IBIS the same way Sony have, in that they will include lens IS on the longer lenses compared to shorter lens designs.
Makes sense :)
 
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Sony does use OSS (IS) is their longer focal length lenses which is where stability is beneficial, for their shorter lenses, IBIS takes care of it. My thoughts are, that Canon will implement IBIS the same way Sony have, in that they will include lens IS on the longer lenses compared to shorter lens designs.
....This is already happening in Canon's very recently announced 400mm III and 600mm III EF L lenses compared to their shorter RF lenses but the new RF 24-105mm F/4L has IS.
 
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Isn't that what the cleaning mode is for?
Cleaning mode only shakes off very loose dust, barely better than a rocket blower. For more stubborn specs you need to wet clean, and it is a bit hairy on a sensor with IBIS. It slides about all angles, I know some people are afraid to even attempt it. I've done it many times, once you do it once ...
 
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Canon has been saying for years that in-lens stabilisation is better, so they could hardly turn around and say Sony was right all along.
And Nikon said that too, ;) but the Z cameras have IBIS that supposedly works in conjunction with VR when the lens has it. Best of both worlds. :) I don't think Canon have that capability yet for IBIS. IBIS is seemingly harder with larger sensors as there is more mass to move, and maybe that, and the time they have been developing their systems, is why the M4/3 cameras seem to be leading with IBIS.

In the comments to the Image Resource article linked earlier the author writes in reply to comments about IBIS.

"I suspect there could be patent issues involved somehow, as I'm sure Canon is capable of the necessary manufacturing. OTOH, they may just have started late, and it takes a while to develop the needed tech. If they do bring IBIS to their product line, it'd make sense for it to first appear in an APS-C body like the M series, because of the smaller dimensions and lower mass involved."

"For whatever reason, I think Canon just doesn't have this technology, whether due to intellectual property (patent) issues, or just design and manufacturing ability. I agree with Arumes that Canon will have to implement it at some point, to stay competitive."

As with Nikon, one technology may be better than the other, but combine them both and each individual technology may not be as good as the new hybrid combo. Time will tell if Canon introduce IBIS, but it will be awhile before their next mirrorless to see.
 
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Cleaning mode only shakes off very loose dust, barely better than a rocket blower. For more stubborn specs you need to wet clean, and it is a bit hairy on a sensor with IBIS. It slides about all angles, I know some people are afraid to even attempt it. I've done it many times, once you do it once ...
Yes but my point was cleaning mode locks the sensor in place to make it easier to clean.
 
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Cleaning mode only shakes off very loose dust, barely better than a rocket blower. For more stubborn specs you need to wet clean, and it is a bit hairy on a sensor with IBIS. It slides about all angles, I know some people are afraid to even attempt it. I've done it many times, once you do it once ...
I took the plunge and cleaned mine today whilst on holiday in Skiathos. Big smudge on the sensor. Probably suncream. Used a pen and dampened it slightly with a lens wipe. Cleaned the sensor dead easily. Amazed at how much crap was on it. Still take crap photos but I cant blame the sensor now :)

Having cleaned it once I would have no problems doing so again.
 
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Cleaning mode only lasts about a second, and you need to have the camera switched on obviously. I switch my cameras off when cleaning the sensor
No you've misunderstood its function. It vibrates to dislodge any loose particles but it then locks the sensor in place to allow you to properly clean it otherwise it would immediately come out of cleaning mode once it's stopped vibrating.

By turning the camera off you're just making the job unnecessarily difficult.
 
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No you've misunderstood its function. It vibrates to dislodge any loose particles but it then locks the sensor in place to allow you to properly clean it otherwise it would immediately come out of cleaning mode once it's stopped vibrating.

By turning the camera off you're just making the job unnecessarily difficult.

Oh, well you learn something new every day! I thought leaving it on would attract more dust when it's exposed via static
 
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