Do you know if that the same for all makes of camera?
Canon FF mirrorless...
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Do you know if that the same for all makes of camera?
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I'd assume no but I don't know, best to check out the specific product.
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That was my understanding too, I'd assume the sensor isn't fully powered while in cleaning mode but I don't know.
RedRobin
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I learnt today that a kit option of the EOS R body + standard EF Adapter + RF 24-105mm F/4 IS is expected to go on sale in December. The EF control ring Adapter is expected at the same time but not on offer as part of the kit deal. I would buy the adapter with the control ring separately.
So, thanks to the discussions here and various posted links plus my own research etc I have PROVISIONALLY decided to buy the kit plus control ring Adapter when it becomes available but AFTER we know what Canon's stated firmware update includes.
In doing so I would be streamlining and fine tuning my existing Canon EOS system by selling my 7D-2, M5, and EF 24-70mm F/4L IS. This would leave my 1DX-2 as my primary body plus my other EF L lenses.
I don't feel the need for a crop-sensor body since having the 1DX-2 and the Canon 1.4x and 2x Extenders and so I don't need to wait for a possible 7D-3 release.
Similarly, as the next EOS R body is not expected until late 2019 at the earliest and because it may not have the very valuable (for my uses) fully articulated screen, and because I am 71yo, can afford it and life is too short, I am likely to accept the slower frames-per-second rate and anyway I can always part-ex for a later EOS R body with higher fps if I think it suits my uses better.
Whether Canon's system includes the latest greatest state-of-the-art technology or not, I have faith in Canon in providing the tools I need and am happy to stay with the EOS system. I had never considered changing from it anyway.
So, thanks to the discussions here and various posted links plus my own research etc I have PROVISIONALLY decided to buy the kit plus control ring Adapter when it becomes available but AFTER we know what Canon's stated firmware update includes.
In doing so I would be streamlining and fine tuning my existing Canon EOS system by selling my 7D-2, M5, and EF 24-70mm F/4L IS. This would leave my 1DX-2 as my primary body plus my other EF L lenses.
I don't feel the need for a crop-sensor body since having the 1DX-2 and the Canon 1.4x and 2x Extenders and so I don't need to wait for a possible 7D-3 release.
Similarly, as the next EOS R body is not expected until late 2019 at the earliest and because it may not have the very valuable (for my uses) fully articulated screen, and because I am 71yo, can afford it and life is too short, I am likely to accept the slower frames-per-second rate and anyway I can always part-ex for a later EOS R body with higher fps if I think it suits my uses better.
Whether Canon's system includes the latest greatest state-of-the-art technology or not, I have faith in Canon in providing the tools I need and am happy to stay with the EOS system. I had never considered changing from it anyway.
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I learnt today that a kit option of the EOS R body + standard EF Adapter + RF 24-105mm F/4 IS is expected to go on sale in December. The EF control ring Adapter is expected at the same time but not on offer as part of the kit deal. I would buy the adapter with the control ring separately.
So, thanks to the discussions here and various posted links plus my own research etc I have PROVISIONALLY decided to buy the kit plus control ring Adapter when it becomes available but AFTER we know what Canon's stated firmware update includes.
In doing so I would be streamlining and fine tuning my existing Canon EOS system by selling my 7D-2, M5, and EF 24-70mm F/4L IS. This would leave my 1DX-2 as my primary body plus my other EF L lenses.
I don't feel the need for a crop-sensor body since having the 1DX-2 and the Canon 1.4x and 2x Extenders and so I don't need to wait for a possible 7D-3 release.
Similarly, as the next EOS R body is not expected until late 2019 at the earliest and because it may not have the very valuable (for my uses) fully articulated screen, and because I am 71yo, can afford it and life is too short, I am likely to accept the slower frames-per-second rate and anyway I can always part-ex for a later EOS R body with higher fps if I think it suits my uses better.
Whether Canon's system includes the latest greatest state-of-the-art technology or not, I have faith in Canon in providing the tools I need and am happy to stay with the EOS system. I had never considered changing from it anyway.
Congratulations, I am yet to try out the Nikon Z and Canon R but plan on doing so.......
If the Canon 28-70mm f2 RF L is a genuine replacement to prime lenses it can reduce the number of lenses.....
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And Nikon said that too,
In the comments to the Image Resource article linked earlier the author writes in reply to comments about IBIS.
"I suspect there could be patent issues involved somehow, as I'm sure Canon is capable of the necessary manufacturing. OTOH, they may just have started late, and it takes a while to develop the needed tech. If they do bring IBIS to their product line, it'd make sense for it to first appear in an APS-C body like the M series, because of the smaller dimensions and lower mass involved."
"For whatever reason, I think Canon just doesn't have this technology, whether due to intellectual property (patent) issues, or just design and manufacturing ability. I agree with Arumes that Canon will have to implement it at some point, to stay competitive."
As with Nikon, one technology may be better than the other, but combine them both and each individual technology may not be as good as the new hybrid combo. Time will tell if Canon introduce IBIS, but it will be awhile before their next mirrorless to see.
I can't believe that Canon neither has the tech for IBIS nor that there are any patent issues. Everybody else has it after all, and the technology is basically the same as in-lens stabilisation - use gyros to detect movement and use tiny electro-magnets (similar to miniature loudspeaker coils) to move something to neutralise it. That 'something' could be a lens element or image sensor, same difference really and it's not exactly cutting edge stuff.
The only explanation that makes sense to me is that Canon left off IBIS deliberately, sticking to their 'in-lens is better' mantra and so denying Sony the compliment that maybe they were right all along. TBH it's six of one and half dozen of the other IMHO but the benefits of a hybrid system offering the best of both would be a tripod-killing combo
RedRobin
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I can't believe that Canon neither has the tech for IBIS nor that there are any patent issues. Everybody else has it after all, and the technology is basically the same as in-lens stabilisation - use gyros to detect movement and use tiny electro-magnets (similar to miniature loudspeaker coils) to move something to neutralise it. That 'something' could be a lens element or image sensor, same difference really and it's not exactly cutting edge stuff.
The only explanation that makes sense to me is that Canon left off IBIS deliberately, sticking to their 'in-lens is better' mantra and so denying Sony the compliment that maybe they were right all along. TBH it's six of one and half dozen of the other IMHO but the benefits of a hybrid system offering the best of both would be a tripod-killing combo
....Not literally a tripod-killing combo. Tripods offer more than IS/IBIS can by maintaining an exact shooting position and also offer consistent panning and tracking. But perhaps I am interpreting your words too literally?
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That doesn’t explain why they use digital stabilisation in some devices?I can't believe that Canon neither has the tech for IBIS nor that there are any patent issues. Everybody else has it after all, and the technology is basically the same as in-lens stabilisation - use gyros to detect movement and use tiny electro-magnets (similar to miniature loudspeaker coils) to move something to neutralise it. That 'something' could be a lens element or image sensor, same difference really and it's not exactly cutting edge stuff.
The only explanation that makes sense to me is that Canon left off IBIS deliberately, sticking to their 'in-lens is better' mantra and so denying Sony the compliment that maybe they were right all along. TBH it's six of one and half dozen of the other IMHO but the benefits of a hybrid system offering the best of both would be a tripod-killing combo
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Not sure what you mean Phil.
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I was quoting Dave Etchells whose article was linked to at Imaging Resource, and who actually spoke with the Canon engineers. I don't think he spoke specifically with the engineers about the IBIS, but I would think he would have more of an idea of what was going on than you or I. Canon may think that lens IS is better than IBIS, and it probably just about still is, but lens IS/VR and IBIS can be better than either alone. There has been reports of hand holding some Olympus cameras for seconds for an exposure with lens IS and IBIS working together. With some of the Canon RF lenses looking quite large and heavy, and maybe not having IS, the need for IBIS becomes more apparent. It may be an added feature of a more expensive/higher spec 'next camera' as a feature to differentiate it from the EOS R. As I said before, time will tell.I can't believe that Canon neither has the tech for IBIS nor that there are any patent issues. Everybody else has it after all, and the technology is basically the same as in-lens stabilisation - use gyros to detect movement and use tiny electro-magnets (similar to miniature loudspeaker coils) to move something to neutralise it. That 'something' could be a lens element or image sensor, same difference really and it's not exactly cutting edge stuff.
The only explanation that makes sense to me is that Canon left off IBIS deliberately, sticking to their 'in-lens is better' mantra and so denying Sony the compliment that maybe they were right all along. TBH it's six of one and half dozen of the other IMHO but the benefits of a hybrid system offering the best of both would be a tripod-killing combo
And talking of the next camera, as anyone put up any ideas anywhere as to what it could be called?
Not giving this model a number seems an odd move to me.
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Well they put electronic stabilisation in some products, so they aren’t just sticking to in lens stabilisation... and iftheyre selling the benefits of some in body and some in lens stabilisation for some products, iftheyre able to do IBIS, why haven’t they?
Edit... apologies if that doesn’t quite make sense, I’m half way down a bottle of red waiting for my first grandchild.
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If you're not doing something specific having IBIS is amazing and does allow you to do away with a tripod. I love if for shooting lower shutter speeds to either blur movement or to lower ISO in low light.
Wouldn't buy a camera without it now.
RedRobin
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And talking of the next camera, as anyone put up any ideas anywhere as to what it could be called?
....If Canon announced or leaked a number for their next EOS R body, that number would be bound to very strongly suggest the nature of that next release and Canon, like nearly all manufacturers, much prefer to keep their cards extremely close to their chests.
Also, it may be that as they are doubtless developing the R system across a broad front they may not have decided yet. Sales of and customer reaction to the first R body may even have an influence on the version they release next.
If one considers that the current R body is the entry level and the ultimate future version will be equivalent to a 1DX, then perhaps there is room for two or even three versions inbetween and therefore more models for Canon to choose from for their next release. We can only speculate.
https://www.canonrumors.co/the-seco...rorless-camera-will-be-higher-end-than-eos-r/
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With every best wish Phil, and many congratulations. I'm just a couple of wonderful years ahead of you on that
I'm just not aware of Canon using any sensor-shift image stabilisation, though they might well have it hidden in something or other (or maybe you mean digital image-shift where pixels are moved around, as per some video systems?).
I was quoting Dave Etchells whose article was linked to at Imaging Resource, and who actually spoke with the Canon engineers. I don't think he spoke specifically with the engineers about the IBIS, but I would think he would have more of an idea of what was going on than you or I. Canon may think that lens IS is better than IBIS, and it probably just about still is, but lens IS/VR and IBIS can be better than either alone. There has been reports of hand holding some Olympus cameras for seconds for an exposure with lens IS and IBIS working together. With some of the Canon RF lenses looking quite large and heavy, and maybe not having IS, the need for IBIS becomes more apparent. It may be an added feature of a more expensive/higher spec 'next camera' as a feature to differentiate it from the EOS R. As I said before, time will tell.
And talking of the next camera, as anyone put up any ideas anywhere as to what it could be called?
I'm only guessing why Canon hasn't included sensor-shift stabilisation in the EOS-R, based on the knowledge that it's not that difficult in principle and the basic technology has been around since 1994. I wouldn't believe Dave Etchells particularly (though he's one of the better informed journos) since he's only guessing too. We'll never know the real answer because Canon will never stray publicly from their official party line. To suggest that Canon didn't include IBIS because somehow they just don't know how to do it is plain daft - it was left out for a reason. It could simply be that they didn't think they needed it to sell cameras (true!) and it saves a few quid
Edit: pretty sure Canon will have IBIS before too long, when it would so obviously benefit lenses like the new 50/1.2 and 28-70/2 that can't have in-lens stabilisation for optical reasons.
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RedRobin
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I'm not for a moment suggesting that IS/IBIS are not extremely valuable, nor that I don't want them, when I say that images are ALWAYS higher quality (when you get your settings right!) when shooting from the stable platform of a tripod.
Also, Canon's renowned and now very old 400mm F/5.6L has no IS - But look at the results.
Also, Canon's renowned and now very old 400mm F/5.6L has no IS - But look at the results.
OP
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To be honest I'm not really bothered about IS but largely because I tend to use the 35-85mm range and like to keep the shutter speed to a minimum of maybe/give or take 1/100-250 and IS isn't a deal breaker there, for me. Other peeps using 200-400mm lenses will doubtless see a benefit as will those taking very low light shots at 1/20 or so but these slow shutter speeds don't suit stuff that's likely to even think about moving either under its own steam or in any moving air.
I do tend to believe that IS is becoming more or less a standard feature now and I think it is a little eyebrow raising when a new camera doesn't have it and the obvious reasons seem to be product differentiation or possibly cost cutting or just maybe bloody mindedness.
Whatever, this is where we are... the camera hasn't got it and at the mo I don't think there's any guarantee that any Canon mirrorless we'll see in the short term will have it.
I do tend to believe that IS is becoming more or less a standard feature now and I think it is a little eyebrow raising when a new camera doesn't have it and the obvious reasons seem to be product differentiation or possibly cost cutting or just maybe bloody mindedness.
Whatever, this is where we are... the camera hasn't got it and at the mo I don't think there's any guarantee that any Canon mirrorless we'll see in the short term will have it.
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Sony were doing 'Steady shot' in body way, way back, it is nothing new. It's just so much better these days. I'm almost sorry at times I bought a G80 because the IBIS is so good it'll be hard for me to ever move to a camera without. You do kind of begin to rely on it. When my camera was in for repair I was sent a G7 on loan for the duration, and I hated it! ... no IBIS :/ It's weird, I used cameras for decades previous without, [bar a brief period with an A200] but 9 months with IBIS and I think I can't live without it Touch screen is beginning to feel that way too.
Touch screen is beginning to feel that way too.
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The EOS R uses electronic stabilisation during video recording combined with any lens IS to give 5 axis stabilisation.
RedRobin
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Re the IBIS question, go straight to 3:30 in this video for some understanding about how image stabilisation is being applied in the new EOS R system. It explains how Canon are probably (almost certainly as far as we mortals currently know) developing a solution which might even be potentially better < Only time will tell but it's useful to have some understanding of Canon's thinking.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eBjbNadRwY
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Nice
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that's interesting, as you say time will tell.Re the IBIS question, go straight to 3:30 in this video for some understanding about how image stabilisation is being applied in the new EOS R system. It explains how Canon are probably (almost certainly as far as we mortals currently know) developing a solution which might even be potentially better < Only time will tell but it's useful to have some understanding of Canon's thinking.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eBjbNadRwY
I must say I am liking this camera more and more so far. there's not a lot more id want, and the ergonomics look cracking I think it will feel great in the hand
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Are the subjects also 'ALWAYS' better when the subjects are moving quickly when the camera is on a tripod!
Are these your results, or other people's images? Are these images when placed on a tripod? Are these fast moving subjects?
It is no surprise that an expensive prime lens can give great results, because isn't that their reason for existing!
Stick it on a tripod taking pics of mainly static subjects and the keeper rate will rise as there will be little or no chance of movement, same as with any lens. The IS and IBIS mainly helps when hand holding as you know, because not everyone uses their lenses on tripods, and that includes some of the larger lenses too, that is why they have IS on them. Some of them of course don't have IS like the lens you mention, but that also keeps size, weight and cost down too, doesn't mean you can't get great images even hand held, but IS for a lens would probably increase keeper rate when off a tripod. You certainly pay for the feature though.
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Re the IBIS question, go straight to 3:30 in this video for some understanding about how image stabilisation is being applied in the new EOS R system. It explains how Canon are probably (almost certainly as far as we mortals currently know) developing a solution which might even be potentially better < Only time will tell but it's useful to have some understanding of Canon's thinking.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eBjbNadRwY
Cheers Rob
That digital stabilisation feature seems to have been skated over by most other reviews but as pointed out there, it only works in conjuction with in-lens IS-enabled ER lenses, and only for video, but has obvious promise.A couple questions immediately occur (which Mr Etchells might have asked
). Why can't it be used for stills? And if it only works in conjunction with the gyro sensors in an IS lens, would it be possible to install just those tiny gyros in a non-IS lens to enable the system to at least semi-function?All this seems to be flying under the radar at the moment, but the potential is obvious. After a quick google, it seems Canon has patent interests in this area so maybe this is how they see the future of image-stabilisation developing with no moving parts, potential for greater correction, and much better accuracy with gyro sensors both in-lens and in-camera working together. Downsides appear to be big data-processing demands (Canon has already installed fast lens-to-camera comms with the R-mount) and the more correction that is applied, the more the final image has to be cropped to cover it, but definitely one to watch
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Are the subjects also 'ALWAYS' better when the subjects are moving quickly when the camera is on a tripod!
Are these your results, or other people's images? Are these images when placed on a tripod? Are these fast moving subjects?
....Perhaps I over emphasised "ALWAYS" and should have said "invariably" or "usually"? But yes, I am referring to fast moving subjects such as Bumble Bees, Kingfishers, and others if you look at my Flickr pages for examples.
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/a-hovering-kingfisher.685397/
It is no surprise that an expensive prime lens can give great results, because isn't that their reason for existing!
....I agree and did start my post by saying that IS/IBIS are "extremely valuable". I personally prefer to use a tripod whenever practical. Shooting wildlife involves either a lot of patiently holding camera position or steady tracking < You may of course already know this but I don't know what subjects you mostly shoot < EDIT! Ooops! actually I do know : Excellent architectural and travel scenes!
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This chap, Joel Grimes, has been shooting with the EOS R and describes how you can use the face/eye detection to help with manual focusing lenses in an interesting way. At about 6.30 in the video.
View: https://youtu.be/-hEKMFN8Y8Q
RedRobin
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A couple questions immediately occur (which Mr Etchells might have asked
....My understanding of what he said is that the gyros inside the R body work when any RF lens is mounted regardless of the lens having its own gyrothingys.
All this seems to be flying under the radar at the moment, but the potential is obvious. After a quick google, it seems Canon has patent interests in this area so maybe this is how they see the future of image-stabilisation developing with no moving parts, potential for greater correction, and much better accuracy with gyro sensors both in-lens and in-camera working together. Downsides appear to be big data-processing demands (Canon has already installed fast lens-to-camera comms with the R-mount) and the more correction that is applied, the more the final image has to be cropped to cover it, but definitely one to watch
....The potential of the very recently introduced EOS R system is actually very evident when you scratch under its surface - I think it is very exciting and although the fundamentals of cameras of course remain the same, technical progress is the key to enabling us to more easily capture our best possible images. It will always be challenging but that's a good thing otherwise it wouldn't be very satisfying and would be more like snapping everything on a phone.
I notice that Canon quite regularly upgrade their DIGIC processors, obviously to faster handle increasing volumes of data etc. DIGIC 8 is the latest I think. The 1DX-2 has dual processors for a reason!
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LOL Rob
In all these image-stabilisation debates, and it is a tremendously effective feature, it's as well to remember that all it does - and all it can ever do - is correct for unintentional camera movement. But if you can stop the camera moving in the first place, either with a tripod/monopod or just well-honed hand-holding technique, then happy days. I use image-stabilisation a lot, but find a monopod is at least as effective and has none of the downsides of IS (eg tracking moving subjects) and is a lot less hassle than a tripod of any description and way easier to carry.ps You're right about RedHed's images, really good
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watch it again if you don't mind as from what I heard its not just for video, its just his area of interest is video. At around 4:50 he says 5 stops of stills and around 5 mins in he says just as good for stills as a stabilized sensor. early days but hopefully this pans outCheers Rob
A couple questions immediately occur (which Mr Etchells might have asked
All this seems to be flying under the radar at the moment, but the potential is obvious. After a quick google, it seems Canon has patent interests in this area so maybe this is how they see the future of image-stabilisation developing with no moving parts, potential for greater correction, and much better accuracy with gyro sensors both in-lens and in-camera working together. Downsides appear to be big data-processing demands (Canon has already installed fast lens-to-camera comms with the R-mount) and the more correction that is applied, the more the final image has to be cropped to cover it, but definitely one to watch
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That isn't what he actually says Rob - specifically with IS-enabled R-mount lenses.
Listening to it again, I'm not 100% clear if this is just an improved version of IS (thanks to the dual lens/camera sensors) or is in fact the data/image shifting thing.
Could be barking up the wrong tree, but after a quick search I can't find a proper technical explanation. We'll see.
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But everything is amazing/stunning/incredible/super-gorgeous/game-changing etc when you're a brand ambassador. They're a plague TBH, 90% fluff and don't forget to subscribe, like my video, buy my book, come on my amazingly-amazing workshops blah blah bluddy blah.
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I think if there was stabilisation of any kind for stills apart from lens IS, even digitally, it would have been mentioned by now. Considering the talk about it not having it.
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why the sarcastic roll eyes not really need was it?I think if there was stabilisation of any kind for stills apart from lens IS, even digitally, it would have been mentioned by now. Considering the talk about it not having it.
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I think if there was stabilisation of any kind for stills apart from lens IS, even digitally, it would have been mentioned by now. Considering the talk about it not having it.
He’s talking about the information that’s is getting fed from the lens to the body and back to the lens for stills. The info is out there and has been for a little while it’s just that very few people picked up on it because they were so obsessed with IBIS that they couldn’t see any further than that.
RedRobin
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Canon's Rudy 'Kermit' Winston informs us about the new Control Ring and M-Fn Bar features. Obviously he is bigging them up but these features appear to be potentially very useful indeed and watching this is easier than reading a user's handbook
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSV0Vzh2Rvk&frags=pl%2Cwn
RedRobin
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Another video from Canon's Rudy 'Kermit' Winston about Autofocus and the Electronic Viewfinder. Includes info about Eye-detect etc.
For anyone who is seriously considering buying an EOS R I think this is helpful information to learn how features are intended to work by Canon. Reviewers later on will no doubt offer their opinions about how it all works in the real-world.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtwKao_nuko&frags=pl%2Cwn
For anyone who is seriously considering buying an EOS R I think this is helpful information to learn how features are intended to work by Canon. Reviewers later on will no doubt offer their opinions about how it all works in the real-world.
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I obviously thought so rather than say that if there was any additional stabilisation other than lens stabilisation for stills you would be sure that Canon would have been telling us about it, and why it was better than IBIS,
in the two weeks since their announcement. Stabilising moving images is easier than a still image because you don't see the individual images. Any inaccuracies may not be seen during a sequence and it is an overall stabilising of the scene which is the goal rather than every image being sharp.
This is so true!
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Call me Mr Old-fashioned but I'll be waiting for the review in Amateur Photographer.......