Canon FF mirrorless...

jonneymendoza said:
They won't outsell the a7mk3 nevermind the other mirrorless FF bodies Sony has.
Click to expand...
We can only wait and see, they’re fresh into a market but they’re bringing in a huge brand awareness and dealer network.

jonneymendoza said:
They may outsell canon though.
Click to expand...
That doesn’t make sense, did you mean Nikon?

jonneymendoza said:
The tech for Ibis is there for anyone to use! you make it sound as if Sony patent it..
Click to expand...

There are patents on IBIS technology, and as with all patented technology, finding a slightly different way of doing something that works just as well is a challenge (ergo Sony IBIS isn’t as good as some others), I’m not suggesting it’s impossible to do, but you talk as if producing Sony levels of IQ should also be easy for Canon, after all Sony can do it. It’s obviously not a simple challenge, Canon aren’t choosing to be lagging behind in IQ, Nikon didn’t decide to release a mirrorless Camera with appalling AF.

If it was simple, everyone would do it.
 
woof woof said:
Sorry Phil, I forgot I have to be very very clear when you're involved incase you misunderstand :D

What I clearly meant was that if Canon (or Nikon or Sony if you prefer) sell more cameras than the others they'll claim to be number 1 but if Canon (or Nikon or Sony) sell fewer camera but turnover or make more money they'll claim to be number 1.

And yes, I know how the market works and time after time we see inferior products win out over better products because of the badge or the marketing and that's just the way of things. I know that. But it's still a shame. IMO.
Click to expand...

I see your point, but they’re so far out in sales that it’s impossible for another company to claim no1 status, as Canon are so far in front. If they were running close, and Nikon hadgreat profit margins it might work, but of course the fact is that Nikon are in financial dire straits.

So whilst there’s a possibility theoretically to measure success differently, in reality there’s no relevance.

I’m not happy that MacDonalds are so popular, but that means I can slag off their products, I can’t choose to ignore their success because it suits me to do so.
 
jonneymendoza said:
On the sensor part.i bet Sony overall make more profits from this then canon whole photography market.why? Because actually the current number one mirrorless camera sold is actually an iPhone with Sony sensor :)
Click to expand...
You know that’s a different company :thinking:
 
Phil V said:
They don’t have a crown in the FF mirrorless market to lose ;)

But I’ll bet they’ll be the top seller or 2nd place by the end of next year, not bad from a standing start. :cool:

Of course you’ll put the negative spin on that, but you keep ignoring the fact that Canon are already the no1 mirrorless Camera manufacturer worldwide. :thinking:
Click to expand...

Given the number of manufacturers with Mirrorless FF cameras available to buy right now, if Canon can't make #2 (simply on name alone) then they would have messed up badly.
 
jonneymendoza said:
Yea i meant outselling nikon. Also almost everybody does use ibis lol
Click to expand...
Everyone does on-sensor AF, but nikons is apparently appalling
Everyone is working hard to improve IQ, but Canon are years behind the curve
Loads of people have radio flash triggering, but AFAIK only Canon do it properly

Etc etc.

They’re not choosing to not use easily available technologies, as you suggested; they have to develop them themselves. We’re back into your strange view of how R&D and marketing work.
 
Phil V said:
So how comes Sony’s IBIS isn’t class leading?
Click to expand...

Well, with everything, it depends on how you spin it.

They have class leading IBIS in the FF Mirrorless market right now (since no one else sells a FF mirrorless), with the entry of Canon, Nikon (and others ???) that could change over time - hopefully completion will mean even better cameras for us to play with (and perhaps even take a few photographs with, rather than simply argue about online :D)
 
Faldrax said:
Well, with everything, it depends on how you spin it.

They have class leading IBIS in the FF Mirrorless market right now (since no one else sells a FF mirrorless),
Click to expand...

Of course, but it isn’t on a par with the IBIS other people are producing.

Faldrax said:
with the entry of Canon, Nikon (and others ???) that could change over time -
Click to expand...

I think Nikon and Canon have clearly decided to stick with plan A and deliver in lens IS.
 
jonneymendoza said:
Nikon have ibis
Click to expand...
Is it any good?

Or is it only as good as the Canon IBIS in the M5, which I believe they’ve left out ofthe R because it’s not really good enough for them to deliver in a £2k+ Camera.
 
jonneymendoza said:
They won't outsell the a7mk3 nevermind the other mirrorless FF bodies Sony has.

They may outsell canon though.

At least canon diddnt big up this camera unlike Nikon.

And the glass is much better than Nikon's.

I don't think this is that awesome for vlog because of the lack of Ibis!

It's like canon took two steps forward and then one step back again.

The tech for Ibis is there for anyone to use! you make it sound as if Sony patent it..
Click to expand...
Any proof of this? Could be soft as hell, bad CA and slow to focus ;)

As for your other posts, Sony fanboy much? ;) :p

(just banter Jonney ;))
 
Canon and Nikon are going about their new FF mirrorless the right way, offering their customers a FF mirrorless system that works well with their existing lenses and not competing with their established DSLRs. I don't think they are worried about what Sony is doing.

Unlike Sony on the other hand who killed their A system in one hit ignoring everyone who has invested in it and then did the same with their NEX offering to focus on their FF mirrorless camera and lenses.
 
architectfadi said:
Canon and Nikon are going about their new FF mirrorless the right way, offering their customers a FF mirrorless system that works well with their existing lenses and not competing with their established DSLRs. I don't think they are worried about what Sony is doing.

Unlike Sony on the other hand who killed their A system in one hit ignoring everyone who has invested in it and then did the same with their NEX offering to focus on their FF mirrorless camera and lenses.
Click to expand...
Eventually they will kill off there DSLR.too expensive to maintain both
 
jonneymendoza said:
Eventually they will kill off there DSLR.too expensive to maintain both
Click to expand...
I’m not sure how expensive it is tbh, they can continue to work on incremental body upgrades and they’ll still sell. The fact Nikon are working hard on bringing their fresnel (or whatever it’s called) lenses out suggests to me they think there’s still legs in DSLR yet.

I think DSLRs will ‘die off’ one day, just not for some time yet.
 
jonneymendoza said:
It's better then no ibis lol [emoji23]
Click to expand...
But is it?

It’s a serious point, Canon execs would have had a serious meeting with the engineers and marketing people, they check their results against their previous reviews and make a decision. Release a camera with what could be crap ibis or stick with world class in lens stabilisation.

There’s no ‘right’ answer here (just like the single card slot), it’s a business decision they could have got right or wrong, and without access to their internal data, we’ll never know the outcome, though their future releases might give some clues, they’re no litmus test, because their IBIS 3 years hence isn’t the same product they could have released today.
 
jonneymendoza said:
Eventually they will kill off there DSLR.too expensive to maintain both
Click to expand...
Why?

They’ve produced DSLR, bridge, compact and mirrorless cameras for years. The market will decide when it no longer wants DSLRs in the way that it’s appetite for compacts has shrunk over the last ten years. 90% of the technology in a camera is the same sort of stuff whether it has a mirror or not, whether it has interchangeable lenses or not.

The growth of SUV’s over the last 15 years has been what waspredicted20 years ago for MPVs, a couple of car makers prematurely tried to kill off their normal ‘car’ ranges and were bit on the bum.

You can predict markets to a degree, but don’t think that trying to engineer them will be successful.
 
Phil V said:
But is it?

It’s a serious point, Canon execs would have had a serious meeting with the engineers and marketing people, they check their results against their previous reviews and make a decision. Release a camera with what could be crap ibis or stick with world class in lens stabilisation.

There’s no ‘right’ answer here (just like the single card slot), it’s a business decision they could have got right or wrong, and without access to their internal data, we’ll never know the outcome, though their future releases might give some clues, they’re no litmus test, because their IBIS 3 years hence isn’t the same product they could have released today.
Click to expand...
How many stops does Canon lens IS offer (latest version) and any idea of how much weight this adds vs IBIS?

My only niggle with in lens stabilisation is that often you can see it ‘kick in’ and the image jumps in the VF, I’ve never seen this with IBIS.
 
twist said:
This. People will buy it because it's Canon, look at its apsc milc range, probably the weakest milc overall.
Click to expand...
Only internet warriors consider it weak.

The arbiter of its success is the market, which makes your statement look frankly idiotic. They’re giving people what they want, not what you think they ought to want.

I haven’t eaten a Big Mac for 20 years, I’m right to say they’re crap, but I’d be daft to pretend my opinion matters one bit.
 
Some things from the pdf of specs.

They mention the number of frames with UHS-II cards so it must have a UHS-II slot. The mention of "UHS speed class-compatible" was a bit vague on page one.

The little arrow button on the back is a customisable function bar which can be as left, right, slide, press completely. It will be interesting to see what can be done with the slide aspect.
 
snerkler said:
How many stops does Canon lens IS offer (latest version) and any idea of how much weight this adds vs IBIS?

My only niggle with in lens stabilisation is that often you can see it ‘kick in’ and the image jumps in the VF, I’ve never seen this with IBIS.
Click to expand...

Why do people make everything personal, Canon made the decision, I’ve no more idea whether its the right one than you have, I’m just defending their decision making process (which may have been flawed)

The reason you never see IBIS kick in is because it’s always on, which brings its power use into the equation for whether to include it, and already we’ve complaints about the battery performance.

I believe if Canon could produce class leading IBIS they’d have included it, they didn’t include it so they very probably can’t.

For my photography, handheld low shutter speeds are pointless, so I’ve not got a breadth of knowledge about stabilisation specs, they mean nowt to me. I can handhold a lens steady enough for the lowest shutter speed my subjects stay still for. My most used IS lens left me with loads of blurry images, because it held still when my subjects didn’t.
 
Phil V said:
Only internet warriors consider it weak.

The arbiter of its success is the market, which makes your statement look frankly idiotic. They’re giving people what they want, not what you think they ought to want.

I haven’t eaten a Big Mac for 20 years, I’m right to say they’re crap, but I’d be daft to pretend my opinion matters one bit.
Click to expand...

Internet warriors, that's funny.

https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/Canon/Canon-EOS-M-System-Lenses

Did I say my opinion mattered? No I didn't, does your opinion matter about big macs? Not at all.
 
Last edited:
Phil V said:
Why do people make everything personal, Canon made the decision, I’ve no more idea whether its the right one than you have, I’m just defending their decision making process (which may have been flawed)

The reason you never see IBIS kick in is because it’s always on, which brings its power use into the equation for whether to include it, and already we’ve complaints about the battery performance.

I believe if Canon could produce class leading IBIS they’d have included it, they didn’t include it so they very probably can’t.

For my photography, handheld low shutter speeds are pointless, so I’ve not got a breadth of knowledge about stabilisation specs, they mean nowt to me. I can handhold a lens steady enough for the lowest shutter speed my subjects stay still for. My most used IS lens left me with loads of blurry images, because it held still when my subjects didn’t.
Click to expand...
My questions wasn't personal, it was a genuine question as I'm interested :(

But for clarity, IBIS isn't always on, you can have it set to come on with half press (so it stabilises the image in the VF) or just to kick in during the shot taking process (y)
 
twist said:
Internet warriors, that's funny. So you're saying the brand has absolutely nothing to do with the success.

https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/Canon/Canon-EOS-M-System-Lenses
Click to expand...

If that’s supposed to show me something, I’m lost. Of course the brand has something to do with the success, it’s a successful brand, that doesn’t happen by accident though, the brand didn’t appear and become instantly successful. They’re working hard giving consumers what they want.

The M series lenses are terrible (for me) but they’re outselling everyone else...

Now read my previous post again. ;)

The internet either ignores or hates Canon M series cameras, yet they do keep selling.
 
Last edited:
Phil V said:
If that’s supposed to show me something, I’m lost.

The M series lenses are terrible (for me) but they’re outselling everyone else...

Now read my previous post again. ;)

The internet either ignores or hates Canon M series cameras, yet they do keep selling.
Click to expand...

It shows its possibly the weakest milc system overall.

So you're saying the brand has absolutely nothing to do with the success. Every milc has kit lenses and the same functionality as a Eos m, so besides the adapter what differentiates the canon what makes it so special to become the top seller?

I know they sell well. I never denied that.
 
Last edited:
twist said:
It shows its possibly the weakest milc system overall.

So you're saying the brand has absolutely nothing to do with the success. Every milc has kit lenses and the same functionality as a Eos m, so besides the adapter what differentiates the canon and makes it so special and become the top seller?
Click to expand...

Well for serious photographers, you’ve answered your own question, for consumers, brand recognition plays a part, but brand recognition isn’t mystical, it’s based on years of building great products.

I’d buy a Ford before a Kia, I know enough to know that might not be the most sensible decision, but we’re complex creatures.
 
Phil V said:
Well for serious photographers, you’ve answered your own question, for consumers, brand recognition plays a part, but brand recognition isn’t mystical, it’s based on years of building great products.

I’d buy a Ford before a Kia, I know enough to know that might not be the most sensible decision, but we’re complex creatures.
Click to expand...

And the consumers are the ones pushing the numbers up, Canon can rely on their name to sell cameras even if the system line up is weak (as you agreed)... Which is all I was saying.
 
Phil V said:
The arbiter of its success is the market, which makes your statement look frankly idiotic. They’re giving people what they want, not what you think they ought to want.
Click to expand...
I don't agree, as with all these competing camera companies (or any market such as the mobile phone market) they are giving people just enough features to sell. There may be some new stand out features to grab the attention. There may also be features that people want that, but not adding will not harm sales significantly in their opinion, so you may be giving people enough of what they want.

If you are leading a market you can take less notice of your users wants too because you will sell regardless as long as you are not significantly behind the competition. This for me is where Canon and Nikon are just going from specs and initial hand's on. Maybe they aren't deciding to limit features, but just don't have the know-how to implement some features, which if so may mean they may not be able to add some missing features in the future.

Sony had to throw a lot of tech into the a7's because they had to try and get a significant lead before either or both of Canon entered FF mirrorless, but even they have ignored some features because not having them they have calculated will not harm sales significantly. And they seem to have been quite successful, but the FF mirrorless market will have a major recalibration, at least for the first few months of the Canon and Nikon cameras being released, just because they are Canon and Nikon cameras. After the dust has settled then it may be features, or lack of them, that may start to become significant for anyone with no ties to any brand. Canon and Nikon may be 1+2 in FF mirrorless by then, but it all may be closer. Which company has chosen the best mix of features in their cameras, and what they didn't put in. ;)
 
They are giving people what they want?

People want cameras with no IBIS, okay…

These same people want a lens like a 50mm/1.2 & 28-70/2.0 L?

Who are these people?

The people who knows what a 50/1.2 is would know what IBIS is and would know what is good tech is for a body at this price point.

The people who goes in blind and spend £2k on a body and then £2k on a prime lens are few and far between, I doubt these are the majority of the market.
 
Last edited:
Raymond Lin said:
The people who goes in blind and spend £2k on a body and then £2k on a prime lens are few and far between, I doubt these are the majority of the market.
Click to expand...
They may not be the majority, but there could be a lot of them. ;)

Do you think all those that buy the latest iPhone are aware of what the improvements are over the previous version or are just buying because it is from Apple? Yes, it may be an improvement, but it may not be a significant improvement to justify a new phone, but they will buy regardless. Canon will sell because it is Canon, and the Nikon's because they are Nikon. Don't underestimate the power of brands and fashion and how stupid some people are with their money. ;) :LOL: And judging from the number of high end phones that are sold there seems to be a lot of disposable income about. ;) :rolleyes:
 
redhed17 said:
They may not be the majority, but there could be a lot of them. ;)

Do you think all those that buy the latest iPhone are aware of what the improvements are over the previous version or are just buying because it is from Apple? Yes, it may be an improvement, but it may not be a significant improvement to justify a new phone, but they will buy regardless. Canon will sell because it is Canon, and the Nikon's because they are Nikon. Don't underestimate the power of brands and fashion and how stupid some people are with their money. ;) :LOL: And judging from the number of high end phones that are sold there seems to be a lot of disposable income about. ;) :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Every 4 years I upgrade my phone, I will buy it outright, to the flagship so I am one of those who has an High End phone…but only lasts 12 months.

Currently rocking an iPhone 6, not 6S, a 6 :D
 
Raymond Lin said:
They are giving people what they want?

People want cameras with no IBIS, okay…

These same people want a lens like a 50mm/1.2 & 28-70/2.0 L?

Who are these people?

The people who knows what a 50/1.2 is would know what IBIS is and would know what is good tech is for a body at this price point.

The people who goes in blind and spend £2k on a body and then £2k on a prime lens are few and far between, I doubt these are the majority of the market.
Click to expand...

I wonder if these lenses will be adaptable to Sony FE? R mount rumored spec is both wider and longer flange distance (just) so in theory it may be doable???

The big point is that Sony is pretty much open to all the other glass and their kit is now very solid. Just why would I buy Canon EVIL camera if they force me off their DSLRs? Won't my Canon EF lenses work just as well or better on a Sony? Should I even contemplate selling it all and going native Sony to preserve the cash value right now? These are the hard questions that have to be asked.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top