Canon FF mirrorless...

I think lots of us forget that the technology involved in what one camera manufacturer incorporates and works well may be exceeding difficult to engineer/reverse engineer especially when they have patents to consider.

As mentioned each manufacturer will have meetings to decide what they consider is important to have in a camera and the 'price point' they wish to market that camera at. It may well not be possible to put all the technology into that camera at that price point; if they had a limitless budget then features may be different. These are decisions that the general public will never be privy to and what one person considers as irrational the other will consider perfectly rational.

Raymond - a camera manufacturer may well be able to incorporate every feature you think is important (the Sony appears to anyway) but the cost of that product produced by another company may well be prohibitive.
 
Fraser Euan White said:
I think lots of us forget that the technology involved in what one camera manufacturer incorporates and works well may be exceeding difficult to engineer/reverse engineer especially when they have patents to consider.

As mentioned each manufacturer will have meetings to decide what they consider is important to have in a camera and the 'price point' they wish to market that camera at. It may well not be possible to put all the technology into that camera at that price point; if they had a limitless budget then features may be different. These are decisions that the general public will never be privy to and what one person considers as irrational the other will consider perfectly rational.

Raymond - a camera manufacturer may well be able to incorporate every feature you think is important (the Sony appears to anyway) but the cost of that product produced by another company may well be prohibitive.
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+1, they all have strengths and weaknesses.
 
Fraser Euan White said:
Raymond - a camera manufacturer may well be able to incorporate every feature you think is important (the Sony appears to anyway) but the cost of that product produced by another company may well be prohibitive.
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Well, considering that all of them have played their cards now, it is clear the A73 is like a loss leader of a camera.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
I wonder if these lenses will be adaptable to Sony FE? R mount rumored spec is both wider and longer flange distance (just) so in theory it may be doable???

The big point is that Sony is pretty much open to all the other glass and their kit is now very solid. Just why would I buy Canon EVIL camera if they force me off their DSLRs? Won't my Canon EF lenses work just as well or better on a Sony? Should I even contemplate selling it all and going native Sony to preserve the cash value right now? These are the hard questions that have to be asked.
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In theory, at some point, all these FF mirrorless will be open to each others DSLR lenses and current lenses in the case of Sony, as long as someone makes the adapter and does a good job.

Now the new lenses Canon and Nikon bring out for their FF mirrorless may be another thing. I watched a video on the Adorama Youtube channel last night and one of the people on it, Corey Rich, said the Nikon 50mm f1.8 lens was the sharpest lens that he had ever used. Now granted I think he is a Nikon Ambassador, but he also said that the new Z cameras as well as having sharpening option in the menu, also have a softening option. :eek: :LOL: For the Pro and enthusiast it may come down to which new cameras have the best lenses, rather than the best camera or which is more adaptable. Which is where we are now for some people. :LOL:
 
Raymond Lin said:
Well, considering that all of them have played their cards now, it is clear the A73 is like a loss leader of a camera.
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It could well be Raymond - that is something we may never know. Sony is the relative newcomer and needs to establish a foothold in the camera market so there is a chance it could be selling it's bodies at a very small margin. I think maybe a further five years down the line when we look at specs/prices of bodies there may be a more accurate indication.

Sony is also huge compared to Nikon (not so much Canon) so has more resources to put into the development of technology.

The 'big two' will also factor in brand loyalty in respect to cameras which does play a significant role. I know it's stupid but I just love Nikon cameras and unless there were massive differences in what was available at a given price point I would always choose Nikon or possibly spend more just to get the same spec Nikon as the cheaper camera from the other brand.
 
Raymond Lin said:
People want cameras with no IBIS, okay…
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Why would you wilfully ignore the many times I said if they could do working IBIS they would?

Sometimes Raymond, your leap to an argument rather than a discussion makes you look like just a troll.

I’ve managed 15 years on here without hitting the ignore button, including some fairly serious personal insults, but I’m coming to the conclusion that not seeing your posts might not be a bad idea.

Back to an actual discussion then?
 
redhed17 said:
I don't agree, as with all these competing camera companies (or any market such as the mobile phone market) they are giving people just enough features to sell. There may be some new stand out features to grab the attention. There may also be features that people want that, but not adding will not harm sales significantly in their opinion, so you may be giving people enough of what they want.
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Well we’ll agree to disagree then, I’ve studied Japanese business practices, and I’m fairly confident Canon aren’t leaving out IBIS because they want to hold something back. I also own one of their IBIS cameras, and I know how well it works. ;)
 
Phil V said:
Why would you wilfully ignore the many times I said if they could do working IBIS they would?

Sometimes Raymond, your leap to an argument rather than a discussion makes you look like just a troll.

I’ve managed 15 years on here without hitting the ignore button, including some fairly serious personal insults, but I’m coming to the conclusion that not seeing your posts might not be a bad idea.

Back to an actual discussion then?
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You misread what I said. read it as "People want camera with IBIS, okay, (I give you that)"…then follow on with there rest of the post which you didn't quote. Don't ready it with the sense of sarcasm.

It has nothing to do with whether Canon can implement IBIS, my post is about the user wanting/needing IBIS, which was expanded on in the rest of the post, the same post that you didn't include in your quote.

You got the wrong end of the stick.

To expand, If your argument is Canon is putting out a camera that people want, and everything in this body is what people want…okay (I GIVE YOU THAT).

Then these same people also want a 28-70/2.0 and a 50/1.2? Because this is what they chose to launch with.

It seems really weird to me these are the same group of users. 50/1.2 is a VERY niche lens, a 2.0L zoom is going to be very expensive and for vlogging (it seems to me this is where the target market is for this R), not wide enough to shoot yourself on it. So the body seems like targeting 1 market and the lens to the other.

As for IBIS, I don't think as a vlogger these days you'd care that much because you are likely to own a gimbal anyway.
 
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redhed17 said:
In theory, at some point, all these FF mirrorless will be open to each others DSLR lenses and current lenses in the case of Sony, as long as someone makes the adapter and does a good job.

Now the new lenses Canon and Nikon bring out for their FF mirrorless may be another thing. I watched a video on the Adorama Youtube channel last night and one of the people on it, Corey Rich, said the Nikon 50mm f1.8 lens was the sharpest lens that he had ever used. Now granted I think he is a Nikon Ambassador, but he also said that the new Z cameras as well as having sharpening option in the menu, also have a softening option. :eek: :LOL: For the Pro and enthusiast it may come down to which new cameras have the best lenses, rather than the best camera or which is more adaptable. Which is where we are now for some people. :LOL:
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I honestly think I would get the job done just as well using either Canon, Nikon, or Sony/Zeiss 24-70mm or 85mm lenses for example. Any differences would be negligible or likely due to my own actions.

So with that in mind preserving the value and versatility of the system becomes important. For example you may consider sony as compatible with all the lenses out there while Nikon / Canon merely 25% or less. Isn't that important?
 
Phil V said:
...Of course the brand has something to do with the success, it’s a successful brand, that doesn’t happen by accident though, the brand didn’t appear and become instantly successful. They’re working hard giving consumers what they want...
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And what a significant number want is a camera with the words 'Canon' on the front - because for years Canon's huge market share has led to a position that people see lot's of 'Pro' photographers using Canon - so that's what they want.
Nikon has a similar, but smaller level of sales from this.

Sony has been having to fight the uphill battle of offering something new, and has been remarkable successful at this, and has started to gain some traction, with a number of people switching to Sony from Canon / Nikon - to the extent that they now claim #1 in FF sales in America, I believe.

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out over the next few years - personally, I'd like to see a more even distribution of market share, so that no one company dominates, and all are thus forced to continue to innovate - because that is what will ultimately be best for us, the consumer.

My concern is that either Nikon will run out of cash, or the arrival of Canon & Nikon will be sufficient to stem the rise of Sony sufficiently for some senior exec to decide a reduction is rise of market share = failure, and try to move to a 'safe' option - when they still need to be bold and expand the secondary sides of the business like pro support to truly compete at the top end (Sony's prop support has improved significantly in the last few years, but still needs to be more widespread).
 
Ok, I read back, I'm out. I'm sure Canon don't give a fiddler's :D but no IBIS, no me.
 
Phil V said:
Well we’ll agree to disagree then, I’ve studied Japanese business practices, and I’m fairly confident Canon aren’t leaving out IBIS because they want to hold something back. I also own one of their IBIS cameras, and I know how well it works. ;)
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Ah, you missed the bit where I also wrote, "Maybe they aren't deciding to limit features, but just don't have the know-how to implement some features". Moving such a large sensor is more difficult than moving a APS-C or M4/3 or smaller sensor, and if you can't move the smaller sensor well then... ;) :LOL: At least the Canon can shake the dust off the sensor, which some entry level Nikon DSLR's can no longer do. :rolleyes: :(
 
architectfadi said:
don't think they are worried about what Sony is doing.

Unlike Sony on the other hand who killed their A system in one hit ignoring everyone who has invested in it and then did the same with their NEX offering to focus on their FF mirrorless camera and lenses.
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I don’t think your right, both Nikon and Canon have been watching Sony very closely, that’s why we are seeing mirrorless FF options coming from Nikon and Canon now.

Sony didn’t kill anything off, it’s just a case of moving with the times and developing something new.
 
Riz_Guru said:
I don’t think your right, both Nikon and Canon have been watching Sony very closely, that’s why we are seeing mirrorless FF options coming from Nikon and Canon now.

Sony didn’t kill anything off, it’s just a case of moving with the times and developing something new.
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Tell that to the A mount users
 
architectfadi said:
Tell that to the A mount users
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But what are they actually wanting? Isn’t the A-mount lens lineup more or less complete? Unfortunately technology moves on and this is how many manufacturers stay in business.
 
redhed17 said:
Ah, you missed the bit where I also wrote, "Maybe they aren't deciding to limit features, but just don't have the know-how to implement some features". Moving such a large sensor is more difficult than moving a APS-C or M4/3 or smaller sensor, and if you can't move the smaller sensor well then... ;) :LOL: At least the Canon can shake the dust off the sensor, which some entry level Nikon DSLR's can no longer do. :rolleyes: :(
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Missed that, but it is what I’ve said all along. ;)
 
Faldrax said:
with a number of people switching to Sony from Canon / Nikon - to the extent that they now claim #1 in FF sales in America, I believe.
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They claim #1 for FF mirrorless sales (disingenuous - the only game in town) but they’re currently #1 mirrorless sales in the USA.

Though I don’t see that lasting long now.
 
Phil V said:
They claim #1 for FF mirrorless sales (disingenuous - the only game in town) but they’re currently #1 mirrorless sales in the USA.

Though I don’t see that lasting long now.
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They claimed No.1 FF camera, not No.1 Mirrorless FF in the US.

Sony Electronics, Inc. – a worldwide leader in digital imaging and the world's largest image sensor manufacturer – today announced that it has overtaken and held the No. 1 overall position in the United States full-frame interchangeable lens camera market in the first half of 2018, in both dollars and units

We're extremely proud of achieving No. 1 overall share in Full-frame cameras in the US market, as well as holding a strong No. 1 share in the mirrorless market for six years running

 
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architectfadi said:
Yes, but as some has described the new Nikon Z system, the A99 was dead on arrival
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I don’t know the sales stats tbh, how well a-mount has been selling etc but to release such a high spec camera suggests to me that Sony still intend to keep it going for the time being.
 
snerkler said:
I don’t know the sales stats tbh, how well a-mount has been selling etc but to release such a high spec camera suggests to me that Sony still intend to keep it going for the time being.
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Well all I can say is good luck to those who decide to buy it
 
twist said:
They claimed No.1 FF camera, not No.1 Mirrorless FF in the US.

Sony Electronics, Inc. – a worldwide leader in digital imaging and the world's largest image sensor manufacturer – today announced that it has overtaken and held the No. 1 overall position in the United States full-frame interchangeable lens camera market in the first half of 2018, in both dollars and units

We're extremely proud of achieving No. 1 overall share in Full-frame cameras in the US market, as well as holding a strong No. 1 share in the mirrorless market for six years running
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Source?
 
Phil V said:
Source?
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The NPD Group, Inc., U.S. Retail Tracking Service, Detachable Lens Camera, Sensor Size: Full Frame, Based on dollar and unit sales, Jan. - June 2018.

The NPD Group, Inc., U.S. Retail Tracking Service, Detachable Lens Camera, Sensor Size: Full Frame, Based on dollar sales, Jan.- Dec. 2017 vs. Jan.- Dec. 2016.
 
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twist said:
The NPD Group, Inc., U.S. Retail Tracking Service, Detachable Lens Camera, Sensor Size: Full Frame, Based on dollar and unit sales, Jan. - June 2018.

The NPD Group, Inc., U.S. Retail Tracking Service, Detachable Lens Camera, Sensor Size: Full Frame, Based on dollar sales, Jan.- Dec. 2017 vs. Jan.- Dec. 2016.
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Y know it really helps to link these things :)
 
Phil V said:
Y know it really helps to link these things :)
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I thought you may have already known after what you posted. Just a slight clarification that it wasn't just the MILC market but entire (US) FF market.

Phil V said:
They claim #1 for FF mirrorless sales (disingenuous - the only game in town) but they’re currently #1 mirrorless sales in the USA.
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