Canon FF mirrorless...

[nandbytes]

EOS RF dynamic range measured:

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS R,Nikon Z 7,Sony ILCE-7M3

 

[jonneymendoza]

EOS RF dynamic range measured:

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS R,Nikon Z 7,Sony ILCE-7M3

Poor

 

[redhed17]

EOS RF dynamic range measured:

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon EOS R,Nikon Z 7,Sony ILCE-7M3

It is normally at this point that Canon users start saying that dynamic range is not that important and they have never felt it was a problem with their Canon cameras.

And it must not be important because they are market leaders who sell more cameras than anyone else.

Looks like the performance is similar to the 5DIV sensor, though maybe slightly down at base ISO.

 

[Gaz J]

Typical Canon sensor. Loses DR at low ISO and recovers at higher ISO. Poor?? Better than the A9. As usual Jonney you’ve taken the headline figure to base your judgement on because we all shoot at base ISO all the time don’t we?

 

[niko]

It is normally at this point that Canon users start saying that dynamic range is not that important and they have never felt it was a problem with their Canon cameras.

And it must not be important because they are market leaders who sell more cameras than anyone else.

Looks like the performance is similar to the 5DIV sensor, though maybe slightly down at base ISO.

please don't start this crap again, the thread has just got readable again. if your not interested don't read it.

 

[redhed17]

please don't start this crap again, the thread has just got readable again. if your not interested don't read it.

What makes you think I'm not interested! I took the time to compare the EOS R sensor to the 5DIV sensor, because people were saying that they may be the same sensor. The link I posted demonstrated that they may be similar, but not the same. When it comes to comparing the sensors, it is with the closet competitors, and what the manufacturer has had before that people are normally interested in, especially if it is the same number of Megapixels. nandbytes posted the first comparison, and I posted the second.

And if you can't take a joke then I don't know what to say.

 

[RedRobin]

Typical Canon sensor. Loses DR at low ISO and recovers at higher ISO. Poor?? Better than the A9. As usual Jonney you’ve taken the headline figure to base your judgement on because we all shoot at base ISO all the time don’t we?

.... How I wish that more of my shots could be at ISO 100 !! Photographing wildlife in England means that a high percentage of my images are closer to ISO 3200.

 

[nandbytes]

Typical Canon sensor. Loses DR at low ISO and recovers at higher ISO. Poor?? Better than the A9. As usual Jonney you’ve taken the headline figure to base your judgement on because we all shoot at base ISO all the time don’t we?

Actually that was the case about 4 years back. Now canon sensor lag behind both at low ISO and high ISO. It catches up pretty well at higher ISO but it's not better than competition.

 

[nandbytes]

It is normally at this point that Canon users start saying that dynamic range is not that important and they have never felt it was a problem with their Canon cameras.

And it must not be important because they are market leaders who sell more cameras than anyone else.

Looks like the performance is similar to the 5DIV sensor, though maybe slightly down at base ISO.

Looks like they did better with this sensor than M5/6/50 Vs 80D

The difference is probably due to increased reliance on on-senson AF and sensor always being ON. The same drop can be seen between D850 vs. Z7.

 

[Phil V]

Actually that was the case about 4 years back. Now canon sensor lag behind both at low ISO and high ISO. It catches up pretty well at higher ISO but it's not better than competition.

But we don’t need ‘better than competition’ we only need ‘good enough for us’

It’s not a p***ing competition, it’s a hobby / career / business where the ability of the camera is one of the least important pieces of the jigsaw.

The best photographer with the 10th best camera will produce better images than all the ‘others’ who shoot with the best camera.

I do a voluntary ‘gig’ at an event. The 3 other photographers shoot (2) Sony and Nikon D810.

Of the published images from the latest event I’m responsible for almost half. And whilst I don’t think I’m awesome, I generally get the cover shot and I’d say my stuff is head and shoulders better. How do I manage that with a (forum opinion) woeful 6d and 7d mk1?

It seems weird that I can shoot with totally s*** gear and amazingly produce usable images. Blimey people will even pay me a 4 figure sum to shoot a wedding with this woefully inadequate gear.

Or put simply...
FFS grow up we stopped playing top trumps when we were 12

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

But we don’t need ‘better than competition’ we only need ‘good enough for us’

It’s not a p***ing competition, it’s a hobby / career / business where the ability of the camera is one of the least important pieces of the jigsaw.

The best photographer with the 10th best camera will produce better images than all the ‘others’ who shoot with the best camera.

I do a voluntary ‘gig’ at an event. The 3 other photographers shoot (2) Sony and Nikon D810.

Of the published images from the latest event I’m responsible for almost half. And whilst I don’t think I’m awesome, I generally get the cover shot and I’d say my stuff is head and shoulders better. How do I manage that with a (forum opinion) woeful 6d and 7d mk1?

It seems weird that I can shoot with totally s*** gear and amazingly produce usable images. Blimey people will even pay me a 4 figure sum to shoot a wedding with this woefully inadequate gear.

Or put simply...
FFS grow up we stopped playing top trumps when we were 12

Jonney

 

[RedRobin]

But we don’t need ‘better than competition’ we only need ‘good enough for us’

It’s not a p***ing competition, it’s a hobby / career / business where the ability of the camera is one of the least important pieces of the jigsaw.

The best photographer with the 10th best camera will produce better images than all the ‘others’ who shoot with the best camera.

.... HEAR! HEAR!!

Ansel Adams' famous quote still applies today. The 'best' camera for me is the best camera for the particular type of picture I am striving to achieve and most importantly, shooting with a camera which I feel comfortable and at one with.

I created this slide for a talk I once gave to a group of people new to photography and who wanted to photograph dragonflies : The message was don't be put off by thinking that very expensive cameras guarantee you good results and I was emphasising the importance of fieldcraft.

 

[RedRobin]

The only time I can see it makes sense is that they would like you to buy two camera systems - a DSLR and a mirrorless as Robin has done; that way they make double profits!

.... At the risk of sounding pedantic, I have bought two interchangeable camera bodies within the same (Canon EOS) system.

I don't care if my purchases make profits for others. Their profits enable them to stay in business and offer me more of what I want.

I profit in the happiness of what I can do as a result.

 

[Fraser Euan White]

.... At the risk of sounding pedantic, I have bought two interchangeable camera bodies within the same (Canon EOS) system.

I don't care if my purchases make profits for others. Their profits enable them to stay in business and offer me more of what I want.

I profit in the happiness of what I can do as a result.

............and I think you have chosen very sensibly Robin

In an earlier post you explained why you would find the EOS R suitable for the photography you do - you know what you need better than anyone else on here and to try and argue against your logic by throwing specs from other manufacturers at you is just plain stupid IMO.

Well done on your purchase BTW - I think you will love it

FFS grow up we stopped playing top trumps when we were 12

Perfectly put! - it really does feel that this is what is happening on the equipment forums :-(

 

[Phil V]

Just to add to this very tired rant...

The best photographer with the 10th best camera will produce better images than all the ‘others’ who shoot with the best camera.

Head over to the Canon M owners thread and see the excellent photography* being produced by @RedRobin and others with cameras which are so far from being the best that non-owners don’t even consider recommending them to people who are looking for a mirrorless camera and already have lenses that fit them.

I’d say it’s madness, but that doesn’t even cover it.

*after all photography is supposed to be the point of all this.

 

[Riz_Guru]

Just to add to this very tired rant...


Head over to the Canon M owners thread and see the excellent photography* being produced by @RedRobin and others with cameras which are so far from being the best that non-owners don’t even consider recommending them to people who are looking for a mirrorless camera and already have lenses that fit them.

I’d say it’s madness, but that doesn’t even cover it.

*after all photography is supposed to be the point of all this.

I hate to admit it but I agree with you, its not always about the gear.
I have seen stunning images taken on the iPhone, Fuji X APS-C and Olympus 4/3 systems, yet they are not full-frame.
I am a tech-head by nature so like all the little features and functions from my Sony bodies give me, however this does not mean they are the best camera's in the world. ...... For example I have been recently looking at the Fuji X and now the Olympus micro 4/3rd options for various reasons and obviously IQ/ISO/DR wasn't the main factor in initially looking at them.

I wanted both Canon and Nikon to push out better bodies but that was down to my own reasons...... if Canon / Nikon released a Sony A9 killer, who knows... I may have bought it

 

[nandbytes]

But we don’t need ‘better than competition’ we only need ‘good enough for us’

It’s not a p***ing competition, it’s a hobby / career / business where the ability of the camera is one of the least important pieces of the jigsaw.

The best photographer with the 10th best camera will produce better images than all the ‘others’ who shoot with the best camera.

I do a voluntary ‘gig’ at an event. The 3 other photographers shoot (2) Sony and Nikon D810.

Of the published images from the latest event I’m responsible for almost half. And whilst I don’t think I’m awesome, I generally get the cover shot and I’d say my stuff is head and shoulders better. How do I manage that with a (forum opinion) woeful 6d and 7d mk1?

It seems weird that I can shoot with totally s*** gear and amazingly produce usable images. Blimey people will even pay me a 4 figure sum to shoot a wedding with this woefully inadequate gear.

Or put simply...
FFS grow up we stopped playing top trumps when we were 12

Why are you getting so excited.

This is a gears forum where we discuss gear and their specs amoung many other things.
I don't think I ever said a canon is not good enough or incapable if taking good pictures. Most digital cameras for the last decade can take good pictures, nothing unique in that.

I come to the 'talk equipment' section to talk about equipment. As far as I understand I am perfectly on topic here and been civil about the information I present with references. If you don't like what you read perhaps try a different section of the forum or provide counter reference to show I am mistaken and I'll correct myself.

Just because I am gear head and I like to discuss gear I am a 12 year old?

I still play Pokémon games too. I am sure other judgemental people will brand me a child for that too. I am not ashamed of who I am and don't need your approval.

Just to add to this very tired rant...


Head over to the Canon M owners thread and see the excellent photography* being produced by @RedRobin and others with cameras which are so far from being the best that non-owners don’t even consider recommending them to people who are looking for a mirrorless camera and already have lenses that fit them.

I’d say it’s madness, but that doesn’t even cover it.

*after all photography is supposed to be the point of all this.

No need looked at @RedRobin Flickr and it's awesome. No question about it. But that has nothing to do with talking about equipment.

I am gear head and I come in here to discuss gear. As for photography I take pictures and go all the way to printing them but that's a different matter all together.
I enjoy talking about gear as much as I enjoy photography. To you it may be just about pictures but for me its as much about the tools as the end result.

 

[Phil V]

Why are you getting so excited.

This is a gears forum where we discuss gear and their specs amoung many other things.
I don't think I ever said a canon is not good enough or incapable if taking good pictures. Most digital cameras for the last decade can take good pictures, nothing unique in that.

I come to the 'talk equipment' section to talk about equipment. As far as I understand I am perfectly on topic here and been civil about the information I present with references. If you don't like what you read perhaps try a different section of the forum or provide counter reference to show I am mistaken and I'll correct myself.

Just because I am gear head and I like to discuss gear I am a 12 year old?

I still play Pokémon games too. I am sure other judgemental people will brand me a child for that too. I am not ashamed of who I am and don't need your approval.



No need looked at @RedRobin Flickr and it's awesome. No question about it. But that has nothing to do with talking about equipment.

I am gear head and I come in here to discuss gear. As for photography I take pictures and go all the way to printing them but that's a different matter all together.
I enjoy talking about gear as much as I enjoy photography. To you it may be just about pictures but for me its as much about the tools as the end result.

Nothing wrong with ‘discussing’ gear, but trying to boil everything down to ‘well it’s not the best, this is the best’ isn’t s discussion.
Maybe take some time out and study ‘discussion’ ‘grown up’ ‘opinion’ and stop making every thread into ‘not as good as a Sony’

Just a thought.

 

[woof woof]

But we don’t need ‘better than competition’ we only need ‘good enough for us’

It’s not a p***ing competition, it’s a hobby / career / business where the ability of the camera is one of the least important pieces of the jigsaw.

The best photographer with the 10th best camera will produce better images than all the ‘others’ who shoot with the best camera.

I do a voluntary ‘gig’ at an event. The 3 other photographers shoot (2) Sony and Nikon D810.

Of the published images from the latest event I’m responsible for almost half. And whilst I don’t think I’m awesome, I generally get the cover shot and I’d say my stuff is head and shoulders better. How do I manage that with a (forum opinion) woeful 6d and 7d mk1?

It seems weird that I can shoot with totally s*** gear and amazingly produce usable images. Blimey people will even pay me a 4 figure sum to shoot a wedding with this woefully inadequate gear.

Or put simply...
FFS grow up we stopped playing top trumps when we were 12

If I walk into a car showroom and ask the salesman "What should I buy?" I'll get an answer but if I ask my mate who knows all about cars I may get a different answer. Will it matter what I buy? Maybe not but while I'm spending my money why shouldn't I get the best I can get even if I only use half its abilities. And who knows, if enough people stop buying the second best the company who make it might put a bit more effort into making it the best.

Just another POV.

 

[Riz_Guru]

If I walk into a car showroom and ask the salesman "What should I buy?" I'll get an answer but if I ask my mate who knows all about cars I may get a different answer. Will it matter what I buy? Maybe not but while I'm spending my money why shouldn't I get the best I can get even if I only use half its abilities. And who knows, if enough people stop buying the second best the company who make it might put a bit more effort into making it the best.

Just another POV.

Fair point..... Sony A9 it is sir! lol

 

[Gaz J]

Actually that was the case about 4 years back. Now canon sensor lag behind both at low ISO and high ISO. It catches up pretty well at higher ISO but it's not better than competition.

I didn’t say it was better I said it was typical. The difference between the sensors at the ISOs I shoot at isn’t worth thinking about. It’s the same with the D850 and 5D4. The Nikon has around 1 EV advantage at ISO 64, maybe slightly less depending on what results you look at. By 800 the difference is negligible and above that the 5D4 is arguably better. I shoot almost exclusively at ISO 800 so 1 EV 3 - 4 stops lower is no advantage to me. Also the 5D4 has a cleaner image at higher ISO so, for me, it’s the better camera. For others that situation will be reversed. I base my decisions around what I see as best for my photography and ignore headline figures that I will be unlikely to/never use.

 

[niko]

well its a thread about canon ff cameras not a comparison thread or a what camera should I buy thread. they would be the places to talk about its not as good because off x/y/z. its a lot harder to just read about the merits that new owners have found out (and the short comings) when comments about what camera has higher dr etc. keeps being chimed in. if people want to read about sony/Nikon there are other threads for them, why the very vocal few feel the need to jump in all the time is beyond me.

 

[nandbytes]

Nothing wrong with ‘discussing’ gear, but trying to boil everything down to ‘well it’s not the best, this is the best’ isn’t s discussion.
Maybe take some time out and study ‘discussion’ ‘grown up’ ‘opinion’ and stop making every thread into ‘not as good as a Sony’

Just a thought.

Actually i don't think Sony is the best or any brand is best for that matter. But I think Sony *sensors* (note I said sensor and not camera) are better but sensor is only part of the whole system. Canon had a lot going for it from its very good colour science to the lenses. There are pros and cons, I am not on a crusade to make Sony the best. You don't have to look very far in my post history to find out I am equally critical about pretty much everything.

I simply discuss gear, i am not in it compare d*** sizes.

 

[Phil V]

I simply discuss gear, i am not in it compare d*** sizes.

Let’s see where we came in...

Actually that was the case about 4 years back. Now canon sensor lag behind both at low ISO and high ISO. It catches up pretty well at higher ISO but it's not better than competition.

Looks pretty close to comparing dick sizes to me.

And I appreciate you’re not the worst for this, or the typical ‘fanboy’.

 

[nandbytes]

Let’s see where we came in...



Looks pretty close to comparing dick sizes to me.

And I appreciate you’re not the worst for this, or the typical ‘fanboy’.

Erm.... I just said where canon sensors stood in the market.
If you go back a few pages you'll see me noting how good canon lens design is especially the 35mm f1.8 macro.

That's not really comparing d*** sizes. I was and am simply pointing out pros and cons and where things stand.

Also to be a good photographer its important to understand the limitations of your tools. Because let's face it no camera system is perfect. They are all limiting in someway.

 

[Phil V]

If I walk into a car showroom and ask the salesman "What should I buy?" I'll get an answer but if I ask my mate who knows all about cars I may get a different answer. Will it matter what I buy? Maybe not but while I'm spending my money why shouldn't I get the best I can get even if I only use half its abilities. And who knows, if enough people stop buying the second best the company who make it might put a bit more effort into making it the best.

Just another POV.

Looks good but...
if we pretend that there is objectively only one ‘best camera’ and ‘everyone’ wants it, there will be no competition will there? We’ll all have a Sony A9 and the other makers can just give up.

More realistically; your mates opinion is just an opinion, the salesman clearly has an agenda, and your requirements are not the same as mine, Robins or Jonneys. The ‘best’ camera for all of us is subjective, depending on our individual needs, personal preferences and circumstances.

For Robyn the best camera for him is a Canon, partly because he has an emotional attachment, and partly because he already has a bag full of canon gear and no desire to switch systems.

For me, I’d also pick Canon, I don’t need a FF mirrorless right now, but my next camera could be the ‘awful’ 6dII. Maybe one day I’ll buy Robins Canon R off him.

In conclusion, trying to boil down all equipment discussions down to ‘the best’ is not a ‘discussion’ and is frankly puerile.

 

[RedRobin]

The downside of the EOS R touchscreen and having so many customisable setting options :

Simply that it's sometimes too easy to touch or action the wrong one. I found a large spider in my bath this morning and decided it would be perfect to test my EOS R with macro lens using the Vari-angle screen and then found the camera wouldn't hold the image in view etc < I won't bore you with the details - This is only to say that there is quite a learning curve.

But I am confident that once one has become very familiar and got it set up it will be absolutely worth it and the EOS R touchscreen is very responsive and fast when used. As reported by many reviewers, its quality is superb and it's a good size.

I never explored my mirrorless M5 to this extent but I think that was because its small size and controls didn't encourage me personally to test it on bigger lenses and consequently use it for capturing such a different variety of subjects. It lived on my macro lens and that was it except for a couple of times on an EF 24-70mm.

A beginner's guide : [Doubtless too much of a beginner's guide as it is so basic, so you might want to skip it]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4MKmXXJBn8

 

[Riz_Guru]

I am hearing rave reviews on the RF 28-70mm f2 L lens.... some saying it can replace prime lenses.
It could be a one lens solution for portrait photographers.....

 

[RedRobin]

I think that most if not all of us understand the benefits of the Control Ring version of Canon's EF-RF Adapter but I didn't know about what happens when EF-S lenses are mounted. This video explains :

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVM13KFU2wM

[I don't own any EF-S lenses]

 

[woof woof]

Looks good but...
if we pretend that there is objectively only one ‘best camera’ and ‘everyone’ wants it, there will be no competition will there? We’ll all have a Sony A9 and the other makers can just give up.

More realistically; your mates opinion is just an opinion, the salesman clearly has an agenda, and your requirements are not the same as mine, Robins or Jonneys. The ‘best’ camera for all of us is subjective, depending on our individual needs, personal preferences and circumstances.

For Robyn the best camera for him is a Canon, partly because he has an emotional attachment, and partly because he already has a bag full of canon gear and no desire to switch systems.

For me, I’d also pick Canon, I don’t need a FF mirrorless right now, but my next camera could be the ‘awful’ 6dII. Maybe one day I’ll buy Robins Canon R off him.

In conclusion, trying to boil down all equipment discussions down to ‘the best’ is not a ‘discussion’ and is frankly puerile.

My point was that "we" should have enough information available to make informed choices and I think "we" should be able to talk about these choices without being told even if ever so politely to stop mentioning Sony and only talk about Canon.

I started this thread out of interest in the R and wanting to discuss it but for me the R doesn't exist in a vacuum. I know I keep saying this but I'm not a fan boy. I couldn't give a flying who makes what as it really doesn't matter to me. If any of this stuff was made in the UK I would probably buy British if it was anywhere near the competition to keep people like me and the wider UK population employed and the economy and NHS and all the rest ticking over nicely but as pretty much all of this stuff is made by foreign companies in the far east I really can't see why I should care if something's made by Sony in Thailand or Canon in Cambodia (or wherever.) So all that accepted, I hope.

When talking about kit I see no problem in looking at and comparing it to the competition for a few reasons including it's informative, it's fun and it's interesting and I do hope "we" can talk about the Canon R and talk about the Canon R in comparison to the competition when appropriate without all the agro and accusations of trolling and fanboyism. If not I'll just leave the Canon faithful to it.

 

[RedRobin]

My point was that "we" should have enough information available to make informed choices and I think "we" should be able to talk about these choices without being told even if ever so politely to stop mentioning Sony and only talk about Canon.

I started this thread out of interest in the R and wanting to discuss it but for me the R doesn't exist in a vacuum. I know I keep saying this but I'm not a fan boy.

When talking about kit I see no problem in looking at and comparing it to the competition for a few reasons including it's informative, it's fun and it's interesting and I do hope "we" can talk about the Canon R and talk about the Canon R in comparison to the competition when appropriate without all the agro and accusations of trolling and fanboyism. If not I'll just leave the Canon faithful to it.

.... The Elephant In The Room :

[Warning : The words 'Sony' and 'Nikon' are mentioned and comparisons made]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P5HeMyPqV4

 

[Riz_Guru]

.... The Elephant In The Room :

[Warning : The word 'Sony' is mentioned and comparisons made]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P5HeMyPqV4

I like the cameralabs reviews........ Doesn't matter if Sony is mentioned .... people have to understand that this is Canon's first R body.... more will come in time.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I am sure it is a decent camera, the sensor is the same as the one in my 5D4 after all. However, it depends on how you approach it.

If you are heavily invested in Canon - no-brainer. It's less than a 5D4, it is better than a 6D2. It slots right in their line up in performance and value.

If you are looking in from the outside - not so much. It is behind on the competition on many things for the money you are paying.

 

[woof woof]

.... The Elephant In The Room :

[Warning : The words 'Sony' and 'Nikon' are mentioned and comparisons made]

Some people may even compare these new fangled mirrorless thingies to DSLR's.

 

[woof woof]

If you are looking in from the outside - not so much. It is behind on the competition on many things for the money you are paying.

This would be the worry for me and the crux of my complaint that Canon haven't tried hard enough. It's arguably not as good as the cough... in a number of areas but it's more expensive and there's the view that adapting lenses is often just a short term measure but it would possibly ease the transition.

 

[Raymond Lin]

This would be the worry for me and the crux of my complaint that Canon haven't tried hard enough. It's arguably not as good as the cough... in a number of areas but it's more expensive and there's the view that adapting lenses is often just a short term measure but it would possibly ease the transition.

Adapting lenses are a short term measure, if it's a permanent measure then they wouldn't bother making new lenses in the new mount.

For example, you can kiss that 50/1.2 mk2 EF mount good-bye.

 

[Gaz J]

Initial reports are no loss of performance by using the adaptor with EF lenses. If so then then that's a far more attractive proposition then adapting to Sony which doesn't work too well with wide angle and long telephoto lenses. If money isn't an issue then it's perhaps not as clear cut. Also the new R lenses that do have IS in them are giving better results than IBIS. The rider being that those that don't don't.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Initial reports are no loss of performance by using the adaptor with EF lenses. If so then then that's a far more attractive proposition then adapting to Sony which doesn't work too well with wide angle and long telephoto lenses. If money isn't an issue then it's perhaps not as clear cut. Also the new R lenses that do have IS in them are giving better results than IBIS. The rider being that those that don't don't.

I wish everyone have your perspective, then my lenses will hold its value for agessssssssssssssss.

 

[jj_glos]

I wish everyone have your perspective, then my lenses will hold its value for agessssssssssssssss.

Having the massive second hand market behind the Canon is what it makes it attractive to me. That and the potential for completely new lens designs like the 28-70 f2 make it very interesting to me. I think I'll be selling the A9 and 5D4 soon, and I'm tempted to give the EOS R a try before I sell all my Canon lenses...

 

[Riz_Guru]

Having the massive second hand market behind the Canon is what it makes it attractive to me. That and the potential for completely new lens designs like the 28-70 f2 make it very interesting to me. I think I'll be selling the A9 and 5D4 soon, and I'm tempted to give the EOS R a try before I sell all my Canon lenses...

Giving up a Sony A9 and Canon 5D4 to go to the EOS R wouldn't be my first choice but fair play to you for trying / risking the move.