Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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AHILL said:
the government relies very heavily on road tax and fuel tax to fund the country so I would be interested to know how you think it will be cheaper when everyone is driving EV's.
also with less employment in the motor/fuel industry who will pay for the deficit?
how will people without jobs be able to buy/run a car?
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Taxation of EVs will have to be sorted, obviously. Even when EVs are taxed there is no way that they'll be more expensive than ICE cars. The £4500 EV grants will disappear as adoption increases. Also, from April there's a £310 tax on cars over £40k which affects many premium EVs. With regard to jobs, every sea-change in industry is greeted with the same fears. You cannot stop innovation for fear of losing jobs, and the new industry itself creates different types of jobs.

MatBin said:
The hope and with luck statement (by me) refers to where and how these super batteries are going to be charged, what sort of home charger will be available to charge a battery with a 600 mile range that can be charged in minutes? Nothing, or very little is in place at present and as I said previously I have lived through energy shortages before and it wasnt a pretty picture.
Why do you think most cars have locking fuel caps, it wasnt to deter someone putting sugar in your tank, or swiping the cap, it was put in place in the 70/80 to stop people swiping the fuel in your tank because it was in such short supply. The North Sea Oil industry came about because of rocketing fuel prices and a lack of home grown energy, something we again are rapidly approaching, we dont have another North Sea Oil reserve waiting to be exploited again. We "might" just have enough if we increase our nuclear electricity production and maximise our renewables but it's all hope and with luck as the Greens will love the proliferation of nuclear and we will then have the issue of nuclear waste and what to do with it. Or are you pinning your hopes on nuclear fission?
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Where do you currently fuel your car? At a petrol station. Fast charging will be a thing for service stations where those on the go need to quickly replenish range, just as they do now. There's probably no need for 1min charging at home but you could easily have slower chargers in homes that maybe take a few hours in off-peak times. Again, increased battery size means less charging. A whole industry of fuel distributors and oil companies aren't just going to hold their hands up and admit defeat nor will they fly in the face of it, they'll adapt and look at ways to profit from this.

A few of the scaremongering articles I've read around grid issues have been calculating demand in 2040 based on current technology in terms of both power generation and EV batteries. It's important to note that UK energy demand is steadily falling as homes and businesses become more efficient and more self-sufficient. Looking out around my park in a cloudy old Belfast, 5 of my neighbours already have solar panels installed. And renewables are becoming cheaper and more efficient to install at home or in your business.

PaulF said:
EV's are currently cheaper on day to day costs, but don't forget that you'll have had to invest thousands for the solar panels etc. Oh and the car in the first place, they still seem to be at a premium.
As pointed out above the servicing cost is not that much difference despite the fewer moving parts in the engine/gear box. You do know that the rest of the EV is similar to an ICE vehicle, steering, suspension, running gear etc. The dealers will still be looking to make money on after sales.

Generally perform as well or better? Not the affordable ones, Leaf is by all accounts not good above 60mph, understears and has little in the way of acceleration above 50mph, quick to that point though. My diesel family saloon (it's actually an estate) can do 0-60 in less than 7.5 seconds, do 50-70 in the blink of an eye, useful for motorway driving, is automatic or manual if I choose, does pre climate control (not heated though) has nice heated seats, is warm in the coldest of weather in about 90 seconds (never where a coat in the car). And manages to do 550-600 miles per tank depending on how much fun I have :)
Cheaper to TAX, mines £30 a year!

The rest is a wish list, if the hopes are realised and the costs are affordable for the average family then great, EV's will increase in sales for those that can actually charge them at home without popping a fuse or the infrastructure is improved to the point they are viable but none of that is happening just yet.
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The thousands you invest in solar panels will pay for themselves over the years and aren't just for your car so it would be unfair to write off the price squarely against it. Solar panels are decreasing in price every year while electricity prices are going up. The break-even points will get shorter.

EVs are still at a premium, but weren't we talking about a 2025-40 time period? VW is set for releasing their iD range in 2020 with 250mile range and a price tag of an upmarket golf. Their roadmap is 80 VW group EVs by 2025 and a fully EV range by 2030. The 2018 Leaf has 148hp and can do 0-62 in 7.9 secs and the top speed of 89mph shouldn't even be a discussion point given our 70mph restrictions. Comparing to a diesel estate is unfair, but next to a similar-sized ICE car, it holds it's own. In terms of driveability, it's a small nissan. I had an Almeria for 3 days while my car was being repaired once and it was truly awful. The i3 and Tesla S (the only EVs I've driven, I'll admit) are great. Having great acceleration without a gearbox is an amazing sensation if you haven't had a go in one.

In terms of faults. From a quick google, of the ten most common faults repaired under extended warranties on second-hand cars according to warranty-wise, only 3 of them are issues that will affect EVs. Gearbox and Clutch problems make up the largest percentage of claims. All of the most expensive claims are ICE or hybrid problems - gearbox, turbo, fuel-pump etc.

My diesel car also has £30 tax, but if I registered it a month later it would've been £160 for the first year and £140 after (my reason for buying when I did). If I buy the same car in April 2018 it will be £300 in the first year with £140 after. Again, if we're talking 2025-40 where the government is pushing to get rid of ICE cars, tax will go up on significantly on Diesels, not down.

Anyway, arguing about future tech is pointless. Just think of the advances we've seen in the past 22 years and how much of that you saw coming.
 
wuyanxu said:
The powertrain itself has no serviceable parts, so the servicing can be done at existing garage.


Yes, the Leaf will not be bullied up to 30mph at the lights ;)
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The fact that the powertrain has no serviceable parts will make it expensive if it goes wrong, as the whole motor would then have to be replaced.
The only 0-30 time I can find for a Nissan Leaf is 3 secs. I will be waving at you in my rear view mirror.(y)
 
decigallen said:
Taxation of EVs will have to be sorted, obviously. Even when EVs are taxed there is no way that they'll be more expensive than ICE cars. The £4500 EV grants will disappear as adoption increases. Also, from April there's a £310 tax on cars over £40k which affects many premium EVs. With regard to jobs, every sea-change in industry is greeted with the same fears. You cannot stop innovation for fear of losing jobs, and the new industry itself creates different types of jobs.



Where do you currently fuel your car? At a petrol station. Fast charging will be a thing for service stations where those on the go need to quickly replenish range, just as they do now. There's probably no need for 1min charging at home but you could easily have slower chargers in homes that maybe take a few hours in off-peak times. Again, increased battery size means less charging. A whole industry of fuel distributors and oil companies aren't just going to hold their hands up and admit defeat nor will they fly in the face of it, they'll adapt and look at ways to profit from this.

A few of the scaremongering articles I've read around grid issues have been calculating demand in 2040 based on current technology in terms of both power generation and EV batteries. It's important to note that UK energy demand is steadily falling as homes and businesses become more efficient and more self-sufficient. Looking out around my park in a cloudy old Belfast, 5 of my neighbours already have solar panels installed. And renewables are becoming cheaper and more efficient to install at home or in your business.



The thousands you invest in solar panels will pay for themselves over the years and aren't just for your car so it would be unfair to write off the price squarely against it. Solar panels are decreasing in price every year while electricity prices are going up. The break-even points will get shorter.

EVs are still at a premium, but weren't we talking about a 2025-40 time period? VW is set for releasing their iD range in 2020 with 250mile range and a price tag of an upmarket golf. Their roadmap is 80 VW group EVs by 2025 and a fully EV range by 2030. The 2018 Leaf has 148hp and can do 0-62 in 7.9 secs and the top speed of 89mph shouldn't even be a discussion point given our 70mph restrictions. Comparing to a diesel estate is unfair, but next to a similar-sized ICE car, it holds it's own. In terms of driveability, it's a small nissan. I had an Almeria for 3 days while my car was being repaired once and it was truly awful. The i3 and Tesla S (the only EVs I've driven, I'll admit) are great. Having great acceleration without a gearbox is an amazing sensation if you haven't had a go in one.

In terms of faults. From a quick google, of the ten most common faults repaired under extended warranties on second-hand cars according to warranty-wise, only 3 of them are issues that will affect EVs. Gearbox and Clutch problems make up the largest percentage of claims. All of the most expensive claims are ICE or hybrid problems - gearbox, turbo, fuel-pump etc.

My diesel car also has £30 tax, but if I registered it a month later it would've been £160 for the first year and £140 after (my reason for buying when I did). If I buy the same car in April 2018 it will be £300 in the first year with £140 after. Again, if we're talking 2025-40 where the government is pushing to get rid of ICE cars, tax will go up on significantly on Diesels, not down.

Anyway, arguing about future tech is pointless. Just think of the advances we've seen in the past 22 years and how much of that you saw coming.
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An upper spec Golf could put you in the region of £35k, so even 2yrs away, the car won't be cheap by any means.
As for warranty claims, as there are more ICE cars on the road and continuing to be sold, it is obvious that most at the present time will be for a mechanical failure, as the number of EV cars increases, there is no evidence to suggest there won't be plenty of claims for electric related problems.
 
wuyanxu said:
Yes, currently EV are only suitable for a small group of people, they will require:
- house ownership (to install charger)
- a driveway
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People in rented accommodation are getting charge points fitted. And others are using EVs in city car sharing schemes. Where you just leave it in the street and it's done for you.
 
Byker28i said:
Wasn't that the cause of that huge explosion about 10 years ago. Buncefield? Hemel Hempsted way
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No, that trailer melt down happened some years before. No idea what caused buncefield to "go up" as had left before that happened.
( and not my fault :D )
 
decigallen said:
Taxation of EVs will have to be sorted, obviously. Even when EVs are taxed there is no way that they'll be more expensive than ICE cars.

A few of the scaremongering articles I've read around grid issues have been calculating demand in 2040 based on current technology in terms of both power generation and EV batteries. It's important to note that UK energy demand is steadily falling as homes and businesses become more efficient and more self-sufficient. Looking out around my park in a cloudy old Belfast, 5 of my neighbours already have solar panels installed. And renewables are becoming cheaper and more efficient to install at home or in your business.



The thousands you invest in solar panels will pay for themselves over the years and aren't just for your car so it would be unfair to write off the price squarely against it. Solar panels are decreasing in price every year while electricity prices are going up. The break-even points will get shorter.

The 2018 Leaf has 148hp and can do 0-62 in 7.9 secs and the top speed of 89mph shouldn't even be a discussion point given our 70mph restrictions. Comparing to a diesel estate is unfair, but next to a similar-sized ICE car, it holds it's own. In terms of driveability, it's a small nissan. I had an Almeria for 3 days while my car was being repaired once and it was truly awful. The i3 and Tesla S (the only EVs I've driven, I'll admit) are great. Having great acceleration without a gearbox is an amazing sensation if you haven't had a go in one.

In terms of faults. From a quick google, of the ten most common faults repaired under extended warranties on second-hand cars according to warranty-wise, only 3 of them are issues that will affect EVs. Gearbox and Clutch problems make up the largest percentage of claims. All of the most expensive claims are ICE or hybrid problems - gearbox, turbo, fuel-pump etc.

My diesel car also has £30 tax, but if I registered it a month later it would've been £160 for the first year and £140 after (my reason for buying when I did). If I buy the same car in April 2018 it will be £300 in the first year with £140 after. Again, if we're talking 2025-40 where the government is pushing to get rid of ICE cars, tax will go up on significantly on Diesels, not down.

Anyway, arguing about future tech is pointless. Just think of the advances we've seen in the past 22 years and how much of that you saw coming.
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First off, I have deleted parts of your quoted post so as to make it easier.

"Taxation of EVs will have to be sorted, obviously. Even when EVs are taxed there is no way that they'll be more expensive than ICE cars."
That's an assumption based on what? Once EV's take off the lost revenue from VED will need to be recouped from somewhere and history shows that the motorist is an easy target.

"The thousands you invest in solar panels will pay for themselves over the years and aren't just for your car so it would be unfair to write off the price squarely against it. Solar panels are decreasing in price every year while electricity prices are going up. The break-even points will get shorter."
Whilst this may or may not be true (I haven't really looked into it) solar panels are not available to everyone, best for those with a south facing roof, less efficient if pointing in less optimal angles. Plus those in apartments etc, but then again they wouldn't be charging from home anyway.

"Comparing to a diesel estate is unfair,"
Nope, I was referring to the comment that EV's "Generally perform as well or better" in that the affordable for the average home EV's do not perform as well as an affordable family ICE car. After all we are talking about EV's for the masses not the few.

"the ten most common faults repaired under extended warranties etc"
The future of EV's is likely to include the use of a gearbox of some description (they are in development apparently) to help with the top end grunt or lack off at the moment. Personally I have had two clutch replacements in over 30 years of motoring, never had a gearbox issue at all. The most common faults in my experience are on wheel bearings and consumable items such as disc pads and the discs themselves. The braking system on an EV should be more efficient though as it will use the motor so I would expect discs and pads to last longer.

"Again, if we're talking 2025-40 where the government is pushing to get rid of ICE cars, tax will go up on significantly on Diesels, not down."
This is another assumption, it may be correct but at the moment there is no way of knowing that. Don't classic cars over a certain age pay no VED?

"Anyway, arguing about future tech is pointless. Just think of the advances we've seen in the past 22 years and how much of that you saw coming."
This is spot on, future tech by definition is not known so no point basing any arguments on it, good for discussion though, who knows by 2040 EV's may be a thing of the past as we're all using some other clean and free type of propulsion to get around or teleportation, that would be cool :)
 
On taxation. It is likely rapid chargers will be taxed in the same way fuel duty are levied. Home charging tax will be difficult to police, as people can still use domestic 3-pin to by-pass any EV metering. Road tax will definitely be put forward when the time is right (eg. when revenue is no longer enough). But I would expect for the same model year cars (eg new 2035 cars), EV will have cheaper road tax than ICE vehicles.

On solar panels, my install is on E/W facing roof. It's not as efficient as south-facing, but still generates enough to get ROI after 10 years. This is before charging the EV.

There's really no need to have 2 gearing ratios. It is possible to have front and rear motor at different gearing ratio and drive different axels according to speed. Tesla D models do this and is able to achieve better range than standard single motor versions. For example, Rear for low speed, front for 50+ speeds.
 
Cost, Cost, Cost, cheaper motoring etc etc. is this really what EV means to people?.
I don't hear many people advocating the destruction of our environment as a take up reason!
if car ownership continues to expand at the rate it is today then by 2040 our roads will probably be nothing but car parks so it wont really matter how many gears we have.

PaulF said:
"Anyway, arguing about future tech is pointless. Just think of the advances we've seen in the past 22 years and how much of that you saw coming."
This is spot on, future tech by definition is not known so no point basing any arguments on it, good for discussion though, who knows by 2040 EV's may be a thing of the past as we're all using some other clean and free type of propulsion to get around or teleportation, that would be cool :)
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:agree:
 
AHILL said:
Cost, Cost, Cost, cheaper motoring etc etc. is this really what EV means to people?.
I don't hear many people advocating the destruction of our environment as a take up reason!
if car ownership continues to expand at the rate it is today then by 2040 our roads will probably be nothing but car parks so it wont really matter how many gears we have.
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In areas of overcrowding, car ownership would slow as car sharing increases. But EVs are not the cause of this.
Yes reduced cost is certainly attractive.
But so is reduced air pollution.
And so is reduced noise pollution.
And so is improved performance and efficiency.
 
AHILL said:
Cost, Cost, Cost, cheaper motoring etc etc. is this really what EV means to people?.
I don't hear many people advocating the destruction of our environment as a take up reason!
if car ownership continues to expand at the rate it is today then by 2040 our roads will probably be nothing but car parks so it wont really matter how many gears we have.



:agree:
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yes but good environmental sense has to make economic sense too. I remember a long time back someone being offered loft insulation that could save £100 on energy bills per year at the cost of £2500. The salesman just didn't register that the ROI is 25 years and very few would see that as an attractive proposition. As for the cost implications of not reducing GHG these are somewhat unquantifiable and intangible to many.
 
AHILL said:
Cost, Cost, Cost, cheaper motoring etc etc. is this really what EV means to people?.
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I would say for a lot of people, financial impact is the primary concern when buying a car. Unless you have a very old dirty diesel belching out black smoke, emissions are only going to be a secondary concern unless of course you are paying high VED.
 
nilagin said:
I would say for a lot of people, financial impact is the primary concern when buying a car. Unless you have a very old dirty diesel belching out black smoke, emissions are only going to be a secondary concern unless of course you are paying high VED.
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Finally something we agree on :)

I focused on cost perspective because it is easier to get people interested. The zero tailpipe emission factor is pretty obvious and hopefully doesn't need to be mentioned with intellectuals reading this forum.

Though I did start the discussion many pages ago by pointing out 1% grid improvement in electricity generation is 1% improvement across all EV fleets, compared to 10% improvement in one engine design from one company (Mazda Skyactiv-X) that has to be filtered down to mainstream over many years to have any significance.


Car share schemes, is this within scope of this thread? It's expected future and I can see it go very well alongside full automation. I feel current problem with car share scheme is the availability of these cars within walking distance for most people. If there are a large fleet of those everywhere, and they autonomously come to you
 
wuyanxu said:
Finally something we agree on :)

I focused on cost perspective because it is easier to get people interested. The zero tailpipe emission factor is pretty obvious and hopefully doesn't need to be mentioned with intellectuals reading this forum.

Though I did start the discussion many pages ago by pointing out 1% grid improvement in electricity generation is 1% improvement across all EV fleets, compared to 10% improvement in one engine design from one company (Mazda Skyactiv-X) that has to be filtered down to mainstream over many years to have any significance.


Car share schemes, is this within scope of this thread? It's expected future and I can see it go very well alongside full automation. I feel current problem with car share scheme is the availability of these cars within walking distance for most people. If there are a large fleet of those everywhere, and they autonomously come to you
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Car sharing schemes have both EV and dirty Diesels. So yes it's an easy way to go electric. But it's probably not yet a driving force.

And yes, autonomous cars in the longer term are going to make bigger changes. They will make a difference to road layouts and the way people use transport. And ownership. We've just got to wait a bit longer for that though.
 
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Agreed but I also think the government should simply ban sales on new diesel cars in 2030 and that will help
 
nilagin said:
Perhaps more people ought to take advantage of the scrappage schemes that manufacturers are running to get the older dirtier cars off the roads for a start. The air will get cleaner and manufacturers will then have more money to invest in Ev's and hybrids.
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Problem with scrappage scheme is that you have to buy a new car. Similar to argument against EV, the price is prohibitive. But different to EV, you won't save enough in running cost to make buying new, a viable option.

The only scrappage scheme that really make sense for penny pinchers (who are usually drivers of an old car) is Nissan's £2000 contribution to used Leaf 24kWh. Unfortunately greedy dealers have upped prices to by now. So there's no longer much saving to be had.

The VW scheme is also pretty good, combine it with government grant you can almost get £10k off a new e-Golf. If situations suit you, you can drive a brand new car with a smaller increase in ownership cost. That is, of course, if they can make them fast enough, I hear they have stopped taking orders of the e-Golf and GTE.


The diesels now are cleaner than 5 years ago. With help from large amount of emission equipment, Euro 6 diesels are supposed to be as clean as a petrol. Here's hope that as less people buy diesel, due to realising most journeys are unsuitable for the emission equipment, manufacturer will offer less diesel in unsuitable cars. I got a diesel Nissan Micra as courtesy car, who thought that was a good idea!

I think a government quiz for diesel buyers would be good idea (similar to the quiz on starting up drone DJI app first time). "how many miles annually?" "how often do you drive <5 miles?" "is the traffic in your area free flowing?" "are you aware of DPF regeneration needs?" etc
 
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Mr Bump said:
Agreed but I also think the government should simply ban sales on new diesel cars in 2030 and that will help
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I doubt there will be that many diesel cars being made by 2030 or even 2025 for that matter.
 
wuyanxu said:
Problem with scrappage scheme is that you have to buy a new car. Similar to argument against EV, the price is prohibitive. But different to EV, you won't save enough in running cost to make buying new, a viable option.

The only scrappage scheme that really make sense for penny pinchers (who are usually drivers of an old car) is Nissan's £2000 contribution to used Leaf 24kWh. Unfortunately greedy dealers have upped prices to by now. So there's no longer much saving to be had.

The VW scheme is also pretty good, combine it with government grant you can almost get £10k off a new e-Golf. If situations suit you, you can drive a brand new car with a smaller increase in ownership cost. That is, of course, if they can make them fast enough, I hear they have stopped taking orders of the e-Golf and GTE.


The diesels now are cleaner than 5 years ago. With help from large amount of emission equipment, Euro 6 diesels are supposed to be as clean as a petrol. Here's hope that as less people buy diesel, due to realising most journeys are unsuitable for the emission equipment, manufacturer will offer less diesel in unsuitable cars. I got a diesel Nissan Micra as courtesy car, who thought that was a good idea!

I think a government quiz for diesel buyers would be good idea (similar to the quiz on starting up drone DJI app first time). "how many miles annually?" "how often do you drive <5 miles?" "is the traffic in your area free flowing?" "are you aware of DPF regeneration needs?" etc
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There would be no benefit in a scrappage scheme for manufacturers if it was available on 2nd hand cars as they would make no money to invest in further technologies. But £2k minimum off a new car can drum up some very good deals especially when combined with discounts that some manufacturers are already running. A lot of the monthly financial cost is then offset by lower taxation and better mpg. It won't suit everyone's pocket, but for some it will and that helps clean up the air.
Even with all the emissions controls a euro 6 diesel won't be as clean as a euro 6 petrol but it should obvious fall within the emissions limit.
There is nothing "wrong" in putting a diesel engine in a small car, not everyone, who does high mileage, requires a big car.
 
nilagin said:
I doubt there will be that many diesel cars being made by 2030 or even 2025 for that matter.
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I agree but it needs a stronger message from government that it just isn't acceptable.
my walk today from wakefield station to my work building about half a mile just along the side of lines of standing stinking traffic and the revving and smoke from frustrated drivers.
it needs to end.
 
Mr Bump said:
I agree but it needs a stronger message from government that it just isn't acceptable.
my walk today from wakefield station to my work building about half a mile just along the side of lines of standing stinking traffic and the revving and smoke from frustrated drivers.
it needs to end.
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Cars have had stop start technology for a while. Buying a car, not necessarily new, with stop start will help overcome that. Some people find stop start a nuisance, but I fail to see how, mine works just great, the engine fires up as I put my foot on the clutch and is running ready to go before I have selected 1st gear. The system is ready to work after a few minutes after starting the engine from cold too.
 
nilagin said:
Cars have had stop start technology for a while. Buying a car, not necessarily new, with stop start will help overcome that. Some people find stop start a nuisance, but I fail to see how, mine works just great, the engine fires up as I put my foot on the clutch and is running ready to go before I have selected 1st gear. The system is ready to work after a few minutes after starting the engine from cold too.
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I agree that is a help but its pretty poor really, my bug bear is the way people pull of now, full throttle, new car technology with is double clutch auto gearboxes just means audi or bmw driver just floors it from standstill in all conditions.

I lived in Germany up until my teens and there was a saying then that german bmw drivers just drove at full throttle everywhere because the brakes worked much better than other cars.
 
nilagin said:
Cars have had stop start technology for a while. Buying a car, not necessarily new, with stop start will help overcome that. Some people find stop start a nuisance, but I fail to see how, mine works just great, the engine fires up as I put my foot on the clutch and is running ready to go before I have selected 1st gear. The system is ready to work after a few minutes after starting the engine from cold too.
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I agree, I don't see why anyone finds Stop Start to be a pain, I have an automatic and by the time I have lifted my foot from the brake to the accelerator the engine has already started, it actually start as soon as I lift pressure off the brake, I tested it :) I can get the engine to start without actually fully lifting off the brake if I want to.
 
Mr Bump said:
I agree that is a help but its pretty poor really, my bug bear is the way people pull of now, full throttle, new car technology with is double clutch auto gearboxes just means audi or bmw driver just floors it from standstill in all conditions.

I lived in Germany up until my teens and there was a saying then that german bmw drivers just drove at full throttle everywhere because the brakes worked much better than other cars.
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But there is the opposite where people pull away far too slowly without any regard for the people stuck in a traffic queue behind them. We have a lot of roadworks round our way at present (councils using up last of this year' budget). You don't have to pull away at a snails pace to pull away safely, but at least give the people behind a good chance to get through too.
 
nilagin said:
There would be no benefit in a scrappage scheme for manufacturers if it was available on 2nd hand cars as they would make no money to invest in further technologies.
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You are right. But the incentive isn't really effective when most old car drivers balk at the increased cost of motoring if they part ways with their reliable oil burner. It's hardly any incentive.

Decreased VED, increased MPG will not make a dent in the extra £200 or so per month to pay on the finance.

nilagin said:
Cars have had stop start technology for a while. Buying a car, not necessarily new, with stop start will help overcome that.
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This comes back to the fleet improvement point I was making, 1% improvement in the grid is reflected across the whole EV fleet instantly. Older ICE cars won't benefit from emission reduction improvements until the buyer actively buys a newer car. For many, a 15 year old car that is known to be reliable is perfectly good enough, why vastly increase motoring cost for not much personal gain?

On stop/start. In my Skoda diesel, it is not very good for slowly moving forward stop/start traffic, great for traffic lights though. So I have to manually toggle it multiple times during a journey. Off when I hit traffic, on when I am stopped at traffic lights. In an automatic the worst is when it cuts the engine as you come to a stop while the traffic moves begins to move off. Mild-hybrid will solve all problems with stop/start :D
 
nilagin said:
But there is the opposite where people pull away far too slowly without any regard for the people stuck in a traffic queue behind them. We have a lot of roadworks round our way at present (councils using up last of this year' budget). You don't have to pull away at a snails pace to pull away safely, but at least give the people behind a good chance to get through too.
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if you are behind me in my 11 year old C3 its real slow.
 
jamesev said:
Why 2030? Why not 2025
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Mr Bump said:
works for me but our governments are cowards.
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Because it's not that simple. Think about it, 2.5 million new cars every year

We haven't the local power infrastructure for a significant number of EV vehicles. Whilst there are charging points around elsewhere, such as supermarkets, they're arent actually that many provided if there are many vehicles wanting to use them.
We also don't have the models available yet for the range to replace many vehicles, nor the number of rapid charging points necessary to support longer range travel for many ev vehicles. There's a lot of investment and thought needed as to how this is going to work.

The battery technology is coming but not here yet. They are talking about doubling the power output and charge rate for the size, which will be needed if you think the 24Kw leaf battery pack is over 300Kg, add more batteries for the range you add a lot more weight, recharging time etc

Breakdown companies? Do they now refuse to touch because of the voltage and just tow/trailer off the road? Specialist rapid charge vehicles with generators for those who run out of charge?

Then at the moment, despite EV cars attracting grants, they are still priced as a premium.

The easiest way is to look at the short local town/traffic journeys and encourage use of EV vehicles for these where they are ideally suited. Congestion charge similar to London?
 
nilagin said:
And what about the scrappage scheme that would be necessary to buy everyone out of their old cars to buy an EV. Governments won't be able to afford it.
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A scrappage scheme won't be needed if fuel and car tax increases, and electric car costs decrease - leased electric cars would then be cheaper for most people, even those with a 20 year old banger.
 
Rapscallion said:
A scrappage scheme won't be needed if fuel and car tax increases, and electric car costs decrease - leased electric cars would then be cheaper for most people, even those with a 20 year old banger.
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If people can't afford to lease a car now, the cost of leasing an EV will never be that low for them to afford it.
 
Rapscallion said:
If the total annual cost of a leased electric car are lower than the total annual cost of an old banger then they could.

Heres a spreadsheet that i used to make a comparison:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P-jf5ufBbFrtRMDkUqMlu5CPDqLGaHo3mOHaCqgHBCo/edit?usp=sharing
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Just the deposit alone could put an EV beyond a lot of people, let alone the monthly cost. You could buy an old car for far less, including running it for a year and keep replacing it each year, than lease an EV.
 
nilagin said:
Just the deposit alone could put an EV beyond a lot of people, let alone the monthly cost. You could buy an old car for far less, including running it for a year and keep replacing it each year, than lease an EV.
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That is the case today, but as tax increases for fuel and excise duty a tipping point will mean that is no longer the case, very possibly within a decade.
 
Rapscallion said:
That is the case today, but as tax increases for fuel and excise duty a tipping point will mean that is no longer the case, very possibly within a decade.
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Fuel and excise duty would have to be more than double before hitting the tipping point. Especially as there is likely to be quite a high number of hybrid vehicles as they will be a more realistic viable means of enmass vehicle usage than EV.
 
nilagin said:
Fuel and excise duty would have to be more than double before hitting the tipping point. Especially as there is likely to be quite a high number of hybrid vehicles as they will be a more realistic viable means of enmass vehicle usage than EV.
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Surely it would be TCO, including initial price, annual Duty, Fuel cost and end of use value. The tipping point is when these exceed the perceived inconvenience of reduced range.
 
jamesev said:
Surely it would be TCO, including initial price, annual Duty, Fuel cost and end of use value. The tipping point is when these exceed the perceived inconvenience of reduced range.
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But if you already own a car, can't afford the outlay to buy a new car and governments want people in cleaner vehicles, then they need to assist people with a scrappage scheme. Subsidies on something that is still out of reach for those people is of no help whatsoever.
 
nilagin said:
But if you already own a car, can't afford the outlay to buy a new car and governments want people in cleaner vehicles, then they need to assist people with a scrappage scheme. Subsidies on something that is still out of reach for those people is of no help whatsoever.
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Not sure its always assistance and more often incentivise through pricing off the road. It depends if you think the government work to help you or the car industry.
 
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