Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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Not sure its always assistance and more often incentivise through pricing off the road. It depends if you think the government work to help you or the car industry.
The previous scheme was primarily to help the car industry as there were so many cars already built but it also helped remove some of the older dirtier cars from the roads, plus it also boosts the economy.
Car manufacturers need to make money to invest in future technology after all.
 
But if you already own a car, can't afford the outlay to buy a new car and governments want people in cleaner vehicles, then they need to assist people with a scrappage scheme. Subsidies on something that is still out of reach for those people is of no help whatsoever.
The scrappage scheme is more helping the car industry (in fact, dealers more than manufacturers) rather than the average 15 year old car driver. I can't see how scrappage scheme can make a difference to any individual if you can't afford the outlay to buy a new car in the first place, as you've pointed out.


I think this is more likely:
Phasing out particular vehicles might take too long to achieve the emissions targets. So it's possible that the decision will be to ban some or all vehicles in particular hotspots. As is being considered in many cities.
Another thing need to be done is for ANPR cameras to be able to recognise tailpipe exhausts. Currently, there is no way to police PHEV driving into emission regulated zones. The C-charge is waived only by the class of the car, meaning you can run your engine all day driving an extra heavy Range Rover PHEV in central London and still doesn't cost you a penny, but the supermini next to you might be outputting half the CO2 but have to pay the full C-charge.

When EV are norm, we no longer have this problem. Any improvements in electricity generate are passed onto ALL EV in the country instantly.
 
The scrappage scheme is more helping the car industry (in fact, dealers more than manufacturers) rather than the average 15 year old car driver. I can't see how scrappage scheme can make a difference to any individual if you can't afford the outlay to buy a new car in the first place, as you've pointed out.
Because the extra money paid to trade in brings down the repayments and makes it more affordable to get a new car. It is alot cheaper if you are getting £2k for your old car instead of £500.
 
Another thing need to be done is for ANPR cameras to be able to recognise tailpipe exhausts. Currently, there is no way to police PHEV driving into emission regulated zones.
Somehow I don't think you are ever going to get an anpr camera to measure a vehicles emissions.
 
Even if it was possible (to synchronise ANPR/CC cameras and exhaust analysers), people would just switch to full E mode as they passed the analysis points and switch back to their preferred mode as soon as they were past them.
 
Because the extra money paid to trade in brings down the repayments and makes it more affordable to get a new car. It is alot cheaper if you are getting £2k for your old car instead of £500.
But if you already own a car, can't afford the outlay to buy a new car
Sort of contradiction here.

Let's say you drive a £500 worth car, depreciation is no longer an issue. Monthly TCO is roughly £100 per month including everything.
After scrappage scheme, you'll likely have to pay more than £120 per month for a car, road tax has not gone down a lot at £140, fuel cost has gone down slightly but offset by having to use dealer servicing. In the end, monthly TCO is going to be over £200, more than double the previous costs.

If I were in that situations, I'd definitely not use the scappage scheme, because only offering on new cars is completely useless to me as someone who needed the assistance.

I can't see how you can argue for scrappage scheme but write off EV completely on the same affordability basis. The argument that manufacturer need the funding doesn't make sense either, how come Nissan/Renault, Hyundai/Kia, BMW, VW, JLR and GM all have EV to buy right now? Whereas Ford only have one horrible hybrid and needs the money from scrappage scheme?
 
Even if it was possible (to synchronise ANPR/CC cameras and exhaust analysers), people would just switch to full E mode as they passed the analysis points and switch back to their preferred mode as soon as they were past them.
Aren't ANPR cameras hidden? There isn't a database of their locations anywhere public.

The PHEV concept is the problem. When you demand maximum power, the engine always kicks in. The electric motor is always underpowered in PHEV, so there's no real incentive to drive in EV mode. I've been saying this for a while now, REx EV is the solution, it is an EV first and engine as backup power plant. Sticking a tiny electric motor on ICE only makes a compliance car.
 
Sort of contradiction here.

Let's say you drive a £500 worth car, depreciation is no longer an issue. Monthly TCO is roughly £100 per month including everything.
After scrappage scheme, you'll likely have to pay more than £120 per month for a car, road tax has not gone down a lot at £140, fuel cost has gone down slightly but offset by having to use dealer servicing. In the end, monthly TCO is going to be over £200, more than double the previous costs.

If I were in that situations, I'd definitely not use the scappage scheme, because only offering on new cars is completely useless to me as someone who needed the assistance.

I can't see how you can argue for scrappage scheme but write off EV completely on the same affordability basis. The argument that manufacturer need the funding doesn't make sense either, how come Nissan/Renault, Hyundai/Kia, BMW, VW, JLR and GM all have EV to buy right now? Whereas Ford only have one horrible hybrid and needs the money from scrappage scheme?
However the older the car the more likely it will be to need replacement parts as well as the older it being the higher the likely VED. The average emissions are dropping by about 35% every 15 years with a typical 2.0 litre now having lower emissions than a 1.2 in 2002. So it wouldn't be difficult for the government to make the VED for that 1.2 £1000+ per year. The crossover would soon come if that were the case.
 
However the older the car the more likely it will be to need replacement parts as well as the older it being the higher the likely VED. The average emissions are dropping by about 35% every 15 years with a typical 2.0 litre now having lower emissions than a 1.2 in 2002. So it wouldn't be difficult for the government to make the VED for that 1.2 £1000+ per year. The crossover would soon come if that were the case.

A good way of ensuring that the numbers of untaxed vehicles on the road increases.
 
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Sort of contradiction here.

Let's say you drive a £500 worth car, depreciation is no longer an issue. Monthly TCO is roughly £100 per month including everything.
After scrappage scheme, you'll likely have to pay more than £120 per month for a car, road tax has not gone down a lot at £140, fuel cost has gone down slightly but offset by having to use dealer servicing. In the end, monthly TCO is going to be over £200, more than double the previous costs.

If I were in that situations, I'd definitely not use the scappage scheme, because only offering on new cars is completely useless to me as someone who needed the assistance.

I can't see how you can argue for scrappage scheme but write off EV completely on the same affordability basis. The argument that manufacturer need the funding doesn't make sense either, how come Nissan/Renault, Hyundai/Kia, BMW, VW, JLR and GM all have EV to buy right now? Whereas Ford only have one horrible hybrid and needs the money from scrappage scheme?
Ford only have the one hybrid in Europe at the moment because the market just isn't strong enough. In America Ford have several hybrids and Ev's. Over the next few years, Ford are investing $11Bn in Ev's and hybrids. Ford don't need the scrappage scheme, they have been financing their own scrappage scheme since September allowing people to traded in their old petrol and diesel cars on new petrol and diesel cars, whilst some manufacturers are only taking in old diesels against new diesels.
You don't have to use dealer servicing on a new car. They only have to be VAT registered and use correct spec parts to not make the warranty invalid, so there is no excuse for over spending on that.
 
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Aren't ANPR cameras hidden? There isn't a database of their locations anywhere public.
Doesn't matter if they are on view or hidden, the only way of accurately measuring the emissions on any vehicle is with a probe inserted in the tailpipe.
 
with a probe inserted in the tailpipe.
Best place for them, I never did like them, bring back the 2.8is Capri (y)

Oh sorry ...... I see what you mean :p
 
However the older the car the more likely it will be to need replacement parts as well as the older it being the higher the likely VED. The average emissions are dropping by about 35% every 15 years with a typical 2.0 litre now having lower emissions than a 1.2 in 2002. So it wouldn't be difficult for the government to make the VED for that 1.2 £1000+ per year. The crossover would soon come if that were the case.

However, as has been proved in recent years, when the tax revenue drops significantly the government changes the method for measuring how much VED is charged. Hasn't it gone more cost of vehicle as it's been realized that having £30 VED for a diesel because it has stop start is losing a lot of revenue.
Follow that pattern and when EV's are a lot more popular it's more likely that they will be hit with higher VED charges as that will be the simplest solution. Taking an extra £50 from many will out weigh taking £1000 from the fewer. Of course they could do both!
 
The PHEV concept is the problem. When you demand maximum power, the engine always kicks in. The electric motor is always underpowered in PHEV, so there's no real incentive to drive in EV mode. I've been saying this for a while now, REx EV is the solution, it is an EV first and engine as backup power plant. Sticking a tiny electric motor on ICE only makes a compliance car.
But if you are driving in traffic, you won't be demanding maximum power and the car is likely to be complying. If someone has gone to the trouble of buying a prev, they are likely to want to save fuel when possible.
 
Sort of contradiction here.
Not a contradiction at all. £2000 for the trade in from scrappage will make repayments cheaper than £500 or less for trade in without. Making ownership of ICE cars drastically more expensive to try to get someone to buy EV instead isn't going to work.
 
Let's say you drive a £500 worth car, depreciation is no longer an issue. Monthly TCO is roughly £100 per month including everything.
After scrappage scheme, you'll likely have to pay more than £120 per month for a car, road tax has not gone down a lot at £140, fuel cost has gone down slightly but offset by having to use dealer servicing. In the end, monthly TCO is going to be over £200, more than double the previous costs.
No-one has to use main dealer servicing, not even for a car still in the manufacturer's warranty period.
 
You don't have to use dealer servicing on a new car. They only have to be VAT registered and use correct spec parts to not make the warranty invalid, so there is no excuse for over spending on that.
No-one has to use main dealer servicing, not even for a car still in the manufacturer's warranty period.
Of course you don't have to, but then the pressure will be on you to proof you were listening to the correct music when unscrewing the engine oil drain nut. What about when you are under finance contract, like how most new cars are sold these days.

This indeed sounds very much like magic roundabout, where EV it must be serviced by main dealers but not needed for other cars.

Not a contradiction at all. £2000 for the trade in from scrappage will make repayments cheaper than £500 or less for trade in without. Making ownership of ICE cars drastically more expensive to try to get someone to buy EV instead isn't going to work.
Who is making ICE cars more expensive? Sorry, I don't understand.

Also, I thought the argument against EV is that people can't afford new cars? Magic roundabouts!
 
Of course you don't have to, but then the pressure will be on you to proof you were listening to the correct music when unscrewing the engine oil drain nut. What about when you are under finance contract, like how most new cars are sold these days.

This indeed sounds very much like magic roundabout, where EV it must be serviced by main dealers but not needed for other cars.


Who is making ICE cars more expensive? Sorry, I don't understand.

Also, I thought the argument against EV is that people can't afford new cars? Magic roundabouts!
It doesn't matter if a car is on finance or not, so long as the garage is VAT registered any garage can service a car during and after the warranty period.
EV cars are expensive, even with government subsidies. But if an additional scrappage scheme was applied for people to trade in their older dirtier cars, they suddenly become more affordable. It really isn't that hard to grasp.
 
This is the point what I've been saying regarding multiple car families: (supposed to start at 7m 7s)
View: https://youtu.be/Zgt4-CMHi1I?t=7m7s

That was quite interesting to be fair. I started it from the 7 minute mark.
It kind of backs up what a lot of people on this thread are saying, once the infrastructure is in place then EV's become more usable, not quite there yet, in a few years maybe but not now.

I did have a look at their youtube channel too, watched the Oslo to London for 5 euro video. In a Tesla P85 so not really an affordable option but did show that the Tesla superchargers are getting there.
Kind of lost a bit of credibility at the end when comparing the cost to doing the trip in a comparable ICE car (Audi/Mec/BMW) claiming the average mpg for those was 25mpg?, ok they chose to use a 'petrol' car for the comparison when there's an awful lot of German diesel cars to choose from, mine averages double that without trying too much! and concluding that the Tesla was both cheaper and quicker, err with a top speed of 125 for the Tesla and most comparable German cars are limited at 150ish it certainly wasn't quicker on the autobahns nor were the ICE cars quite as expensive as they made out. But I guess a difference of less than £40 for the trip didn't have the same impact.

Would be interesting to see a similar experiment using the Tesla Model 3 when that is available in a few years as that is when it may be hitting the mainstream for the Audi/Merc/BMW money.
 
Another thing need to be done is for ANPR cameras to be able to recognise tailpipe exhausts. Currently, there is no way to police PHEV driving into emission regulated zones.
Aren't ANPR cameras hidden? There isn't a database of their locations anywhere public.

Oh My. I've been staying out of this but really theres some b****x on here.

One of the huge projects I did last year was on camera infrastructure for Police forces, including ANPR, Speed cameras etc.
I wonder why ANPR locations aren't detailed to the public. Could it be because of the work they do in identifying criminals as they move around the country?

As for emissions, what do you want to do, detect an output? How do you know in heavy traffic you've got the right vehicle? It's easy to pick up overall levels, not that detailed and certainly not with cameras.
Most PHEV have a range from a couple of miles to 25 or so on electric only and a co2 level of 50-100. The driver can't always control when it's on which power, so you just police the area by co2 level vehicles allowed into that area, for which the vehicle is recognised by numberplate...
 
Speaking of PHEV, I'm liking the look of the Mini Countryman PHEV All 4 - cheaper than the leaf, 1.5 litre engine driving the front wheels, electric motor driving the rear, 0-60 in 6.8 secs, 123mph top speed so doesn't run out of oomph on the motorway
 
As for emissions, what do you want to do, detect an output?
Most PHEV have a range from a couple of miles to 25 or so on electric only and a co2 level of 50-100. The driver can't always control when it's on which power, so you just police the area by co2 level vehicles allowed into that area, for which the vehicle is recognised by numberplate...
Yes. Detect exhaust output. Do things like link in IR cameras and detect increased temperature at the tailpipe location of cars, relative to the number plate location.

The driver can't always control non-plug-in hybrid power source (eg on mild hybrids). And there isn't any point to do so when EV range is only 1 mile.
On PHEV, driver is always able to control power source, there's always an EV mode.

I pointed out there's no public resource on ANPR locations, you are agreeing with me. :) The BS is Nod's comment regarding switching between power sources like braking for speed cameras.


Kind of lost a bit of credibility at the end when comparing the cost to doing the trip in a comparable ICE car (Audi/Mec/BMW) claiming the average mpg for those was 25mpg?, ok they chose to use a 'petrol' car for the comparison when there's an awful lot of German diesel cars to choose from, mine averages double that without trying too much! and concluding that the Tesla was both cheaper and quicker, err with a top speed of 125 for the Tesla and most comparable German cars are limited at 150ish it certainly wasn't quicker on the autobahns nor were the ICE cars quite as expensive as they made out. But I guess a difference of less than £40 for the trip didn't have the same impact.

Would be interesting to see a similar experiment using the Tesla Model 3 when that is available in a few years as that is when it may be hitting the mainstream for the Audi/Merc/BMW money.
Yes, you can't take all of his comment to heart. The channel is good for news and reporting on new EV's, comparison to ICE cars are a bit iffy.

But on the point of being quicker. To achieve similar acceleration speed you'd need to be pushing M/AMG spec, M3 gets 4s 0-60 while base spec Model S 75D does the same in 4.2s, both are similar money but one is in a higher class. The top speed is indeed slower on Model S, but how much time is a car spent at top speed? How many 0-30mph accelerations do you do every trip? I'd personally take immediate throttle response and acceleration over straight up top speed.

Also, more performance after driving the car for months, via software updates? yes please: https://electrek.co/2017/10/21/tesla-unlocking-extra-power-older-model-s-x-75d-acceleration/
 
Also, more performance after driving the car for months, via software updates? yes please: https://electrek.co/2017/10/21/tesla-unlocking-extra-power-older-model-s-x-75d-acceleration/

Of course, if you modify the ECU away from the spec it left the factory to increase power you need to tell the insurers, who will now class it as a modified vehicle and slap a healthy increase on the premium ;) just like if you "chip" an ICE powered vehicle to increase power by a software update.

I have no objection to coaxing more power from a motor, I've done it to multiple petrol engined vehicles over the time I've owned cars.
 
Yes. Detect exhaust output. Do things like link in IR cameras and detect increased temperature at the tailpipe location of cars, relative to the number plate location.
If it was as easy as that to pin point emissions and get an accurate measurement, don't you think car manufacturers would be using such a method instead of having to install equipment in the boot and a probe up the exhaust to measure the cars for the real world emissions tests.
I don't know about the magic roundabout you mentioned before, but I believe you have either eaten too many magic mushrooms or you have been doing some diy maintenance on your EV and given yourself too many nasty jolts.
 
Yes, you can't take all of his comment to heart. The channel is good for news and reporting on new EV's, comparison to ICE cars are a bit iffy.

But on the point of being quicker. To achieve similar acceleration speed you'd need to be pushing M/AMG spec, M3 gets 4s 0-60 while base spec Model S 75D does the same in 4.2s, both are similar money but one is in a higher class. The top speed is indeed slower on Model S, but how much time is a car spent at top speed? How many 0-30mph accelerations do you do every trip? I'd personally take immediate throttle response and acceleration over straight up top speed.

Also, more performance after driving the car for months, via software updates? yes please: https://electrek.co/2017/10/21/tesla-unlocking-extra-power-older-model-s-x-75d-acceleration/

Personally, on my way to my base site I'll do on average of about seven 0-30mph (or faster), I also on average do about 30 miles of motorway driving, I'll take the top end speed thanks, it'll be overall quicker!
I mean, you may gain a few seconds in the first few hundred yards of the journey on the autobahn but lose a hell of a lot over the next 30,40 or 50 miles doing about 25mph less.

I know that's not really applicable to the UK and the Tesla is well capable of cruising at 70mph, but, when people start to basically make stuff up to justify an argument they, at that moment, lose the whole argument. How can we be sure that the 'news' on that youtube channel resembles anything other than the authors biased opinion? and boy is he biased, have you read any of his replies to comments?
 
Of course, if you modify the ECU away from the spec it left the factory to increase power you need to tell the insurers, who will now class it as a modified vehicle and slap a healthy increase on the premium ;) just like if you "chip" an ICE powered vehicle to increase power by a software update.
We are in uncharted waters here...... modified vehicles are modified by the end user. I've asked my insurer about changing wheel size, to go from 18inch (who puts 18 inch on a Skoda!) down to 16inch, both manufacturer out-of-the-factory wheels. The insurance company doesn't class this as a modification because it is still manufacturer spec, you can buy the same car from a dealer. So I'd think firmware updates are classed differently to "chip" ICE.

If it was as easy as that to pin point emissions and get an accurate measurement, don't you think car manufacturers would be using such a method instead of having to install equipment in the boot and a probe up the exhaust to measure the cars for the real world emissions tests.
The point is not to accurately measure emission. The point is to identify presence of tailpipe emission, a yes or a no. This is to ensure people stay in zero-emission EV mode inside the highest polluting zones. We know vehicle emissions from other testing, this can be linked to the vehicles via the number plate. But the problem is:

The C-charge is waived only by the class of the car, meaning you can run your engine all day driving an extra heavy Range Rover PHEV in central London and still doesn't cost you a penny, but the supermini next to you might be outputting half the CO2 but have to pay the full C-charge.

I know that's not really applicable to the UK and the Tesla is well capable of cruising at 70mph, but, when people start to basically make stuff up to justify an argument they, at that moment, lose the whole argument. How can we be sure that the 'news' on that youtube channel resembles anything other than the authors biased opinion? and boy is he biased, have you read any of his replies to comments?
I don't read any youtube comments because it's only setup for short sentence replies. Hardly the best medium for a logical discussion. The video does show he's quite biased. But the news are all widely publicised stuff and the interviews and specials are all standard PR practice.
 
We are in uncharted waters here...... modified vehicles are modified by the end user. I've asked my insurer about changing wheel size, to go from 18inch (who puts 18 inch on a Skoda!) down to 16inch, both manufacturer out-of-the-factory wheels. The insurance company doesn't class this as a modification because it is still manufacturer spec, you can buy the same car from a dealer. So I'd think firmware updates are classed differently to "chip" ICE.


The point is not to accurately measure emission. The point is to identify presence of tailpipe emission, a yes or a no. This is to ensure people stay in zero-emission EV mode inside the highest polluting zones. We know vehicle emissions from other testing, this can be linked to the vehicles via the number plate. But the problem is:




I don't read any youtube comments because it's only setup for short sentence replies. Hardly the best medium for a logical discussion. The video does show he's quite biased. But the news are all widely publicised stuff and the interviews and specials are all standard PR practice.
Normally I'd agree ref YouTube comments but take a look at some of his replies in the 5 euro trip one, they are full on massive replies, longer than a lot of posts here!
 
We are in uncharted waters here...... modified vehicles are modified by the end user. I've asked my insurer about changing wheel size, to go from 18inch (who puts 18 inch on a Skoda!) down to 16inch, both manufacturer out-of-the-factory wheels. The insurance company doesn't class this as a modification because it is still manufacturer spec, you can buy the same car from a dealer. So I'd think firmware updates are classed differently to "chip" ICE.
Your replies are getting more and more deluded. If a firmware update means a car can accelerate quicker or have a higher top speed, it will have the same implications.
Regardless of what modifications are made to a vehicle, you are obliged to tell your insurance company. It is then up to individual insurance companies if they just make a note of it on your policy or also charge you more.
 
Your replies are getting more and more deluded. If a firmware update means a car can accelerate quicker or have a higher top speed, it will have the same implications.
Regardless of what modifications are made to a vehicle, you are obliged to tell your insurance company. It is then up to individual insurance companies if they just make a note of it on your policy or also charge you more.
My insurance company does not class any optional extras fitted by the manufacturer at the time of purchase as modifications.
I suspect that an upgrade after it leaves the factory would be considered differently in the current market. That may change though as EV updates become more commonplace, provided the update is not an optional thing, i.e. all cars if that model receive an update. Who knows, at the moment I'd be informing the insurance company to be safe.
 
My insurance company does not class any optional extras fitted by the manufacturer at the time of purchase as modifications.
I suspect that an upgrade after it leaves the factory would be considered differently in the current market.
Some insurance companies will at least want to know what optional extras were fitted at the factory, even though they may not make an extra charge for it.
Some manufacturers will even have alternative spec fitted at the dealers prior to an owner taking delivery. But like you say disclose everything and you can't go wrong.
 
Had a call from the Nissan dealer after my test drive. If I want a Leaf to get in quick as the prices go up 3% in April and the free charger offer runs out as well. Delivery dates would still be August/September
 
Took a '14 Leaf out for a test drive this morning. Mrs Nod is picking it up on Saturday. Much nippier than the s***box A Class. Will be sorting a fast charger ASAP but will be able to charge it from a 13A socket in the mean time, especially since it will be used mainly for short journeys.
 
Took a '14 Leaf out for a test drive this morning. Mrs Nod is picking it up on Saturday. Much nippier than the s***box A Class. Will be sorting a fast charger ASAP but will be able to charge it from a 13A socket in the mean time, especially since it will be used mainly for short journeys.

Worth having a look on zapmap for nearby rapid chargers too. Always handy if you decide you want to use the car again and can't be bothered to wait for it to charge up :)
 
We've got "real" cars to use when needed but I'll have a look to see what's available. Thanks for the tip.


ETA FREE 3 hour fast charge if shopping at our usual Sainsbury's... :D
 
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