Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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Given the choice between any of the current (excuse the pun) affordable (to joe public) EVs and £4/wk road tax on an RS I know where my money would go.

Except my wife's back wouldnt tolerate an RS's suspension (or lack of ;-) )
They aren't as bad as you might expect. The standard Recaro seats as well as the Shell Recaro sport seats are very comfortable and very supportive, especially if you have a bad back. I would say the RS suspension gives a much better ride than my wife's Ka.
 
They aren't as bad as you might expect. The standard Recaro seats as well as the Shell Recaro sport seats are very comfortable and very supportive, especially if you have a bad back. I would say the RS suspension gives a much better ride than my wife's Ka.
My son writes for a motoring magazine and I have had a go, as a passenger, in the RS Fiesta, what a beast! Brakes are either on or off, nothing inbetween, very firm suspension, so we're looking at a Fiesta ST Line this weekend (only the 125 engine though, although they do have a 140, so maybe she'll have a go in that too, hopefully) which should be a tad softer and more of a town car.
 
That figure is for 2016 to pre April 2017 models. On April 1st 2017 VED changed for cars registered on or after that date which included the additional £345 a year for the first 5 years of any car with a list price exceeding £40k. My car was registered last September, first years registration VED was £800 and included in the initial on the road costs but my renewal and each year after is just £140.
 
My son writes for a motoring magazine and I have had a go, as a passenger, in the RS Fiesta, what a beast! Brakes are either on or off, nothing inbetween, very firm suspension, so we're looking at a Fiesta ST Line this weekend (only the 125 engine though, although they do have a 140, so maybe she'll have a go in that too, hopefully) which should be a tad softer and more of a town car.
RS Fiesta? There hasn't been one of those since the 90's. Did you mean Focus RS or the new Fiesta ST? The Focus RS Been no brakes do pull up quick the first few times you use them, but it doesn't take too long to get a feel for the pedal, so you don't apply too much pressure. The 1.0 Ecoboost engine has just been redeveloped although I am not sure if they are fitting it into all cars yet. The original engine has the exhaust and turbo at the front of the engine. The new version has the exhaust and turbo at the back of the engine. The new version has cylinder deactivation meaning between certain engine speeds and loads and the car is just cruising or crawling along, cylinder 1 can shutdown, reducing emissions and fuel consumption. It automatically reactivates when more power is required to accelerate. If it were me, I would wait for that engine if they aren't already fitting them.
 
it's been happy enough to get out into lane 3 (and be keeping up with the other vehicles there!).
I didn't realise they did 80+ ?
How stable are they at that speed?
(Curious of MK)

How so? It wasn't me that brought up the subject of Ev's "amazing performance"
Just take the compliment Neil (y) :D

In both tragedies, human error is to blame.
There have been a lot more than two, but that's by-the-by.
Autonomous cars saves lives.
If human error is still to blame what use is all this "Stuff" ?
 
Except my wife's back wouldnt tolerate an RS's suspension (or lack of ;-) )
TBH I've driven 2 ford focus's one ST and one Ghia, I found them both uncomfortable, and thats coming from someone that has had a myriad of Capri's and loved each one,
from the 3l auto through to the 2.8is (y)
 
Have built (EVType). Harry Wales drove one after his wedding. The conversion is allegedly going to be available as a retrofit to any car that uses an XK engine.
.
At an expected cost of around £60k.
£300k if you want Jaguar to build you a new EV Type.
 
Fiesta ST, beast, but good fun.
 
I didn't realise they did 80+ ?
How stable are they at that speed?
(Curious of MK)

90 or so top end (so I've read, not taken it that high.) Plenty stable - feels far more planted than the A Class and gets up to speed far quicker too. Most of the mass is under the floor so it's got a nice low CoG.

At an expected cost of around £60k.
£300k if you want Jaguar to build you a new EV Type.

So? Cost isn't a factor in this part of the conversation.
 
So? Cost isn't a factor in this part of the conversation.

A constant theme in this thread is one of the main advantages of EV is the savings to be made on fuel costs, so cost is always a factor.
 
A constant theme in this thread is one of the main advantages of EV is the savings to be made on fuel costs, so cost is always a factor.
He was referring to the Prince and a hand made Jaguar. So it was a slightly different topic.
 
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Which you brought up I believe.
No. I had nothing to do with that.

I too was curious about the reply, and read back a few posts. And then understood. Which is why I replied to try to clarify.
 
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There is a constant moving of the goalposts by EV supporters.
I don't know who here has moved their goalposts.
But one main goal, and a driving factor in the progress being made, is a solution to the acute air pollution in many cities.
 
He was referring to the Prince and a hand made Jaguar. So it was a slightly different topic.
And I merely pointed out the expected cost of converting an existing E Type or having a new one built.
 
I don't know who here has moved their goalposts.
But one main goal, and a driving factor in the progress being made, is a solution to the acute air pollution in many cities.
By 'moving the goalposts' I'm referring to way the EV supporters pick what to compare to any given point and seem incapable of accepting a like for like comparison based on similarly priced/spec of vehicle.
For instance, cost of ownership is generally compared to the cheaper EV's, Leaf etc but if the performance is brought up (both speed and range) then all of a sudden the average Ice car is thrown up against a Tesla costing around £80k.
So, it would be helpful if similar priced cars were being compared for all comparisons.
Compare the Leaf against a similar car for all aspects and bring Tesla in when a M3/4/5 is mentioned.
 
Except for the towns and cities near to the sourcing and manufacturing of battery materials.

It's really not a silver bullet for global pollution.
That doesn't get round the fact that cities have air pollution problems, and that it is a goal to reduce it.
Likewise, it is a goal to reduce or remove the use of certain minerals in batteries. And a massive amount of money is going into researching new electricity storage technologies.
 
By 'moving the goalposts' I'm referring to way the EV supporters pick what to compare to any given point and seem incapable of accepting a like for like comparison based on similarly priced/spec of vehicle.
For instance, cost of ownership is generally compared to the cheaper EV's, Leaf etc but if the performance is brought up (both speed and range) then all of a sudden the average Ice car is thrown up against a Tesla costing around £80k.
So, it would be helpful if similar priced cars were being compared for all comparisons.
Compare the Leaf against a similar car for all aspects and bring Tesla in when a M3/4/5 is mentioned.
You can compare running cost of Tesla against any other 7 series/S class, but I don't think that's representative of people wanting to save a few bucks. Either way, running cost of Tesla is not much more than Leaf, what is 20% more of the really tiny fuel bill?

Similarly, you can compare Leaf against other 110bhp ICE cars. But Fiasta ST kept being bought up, a 300bhp car. Leaf against a diesel Micra would be good, I stepped out of former directly into latter as courtesy car, I can tell without shadow of doubt which one drives much much better on every single aspects.

If human error is still to blame what use is all this "Stuff" ?
These autonomous stuff are currently only assistive, but people don't fully understand their limitations.

Read the F manual! Frankly Darwinism at its finest.
 
You can compare running cost of Tesla against any other 7 series/S class, but I don't think that's representative of people wanting to save a few bucks. Either way, running cost of Tesla is not much more than Leaf, what is 20% more of the really tiny fuel bill?

Similarly, you can compare Leaf against other 110bhp ICE cars. But Fiasta ST kept being bought up, a 300bhp car. Leaf against a diesel Micra would be good, I stepped out of former directly into latter as courtesy car, I can tell without shadow of doubt which one drives much much better on every single aspects.

LOL, micra - £19k, Leaf - £27k, fair comparison.
Ford Fiesta St - £22k, so £5k of fuel before reaching the purchase cost of the Leaf.

Think again on the Tesla running costs similar to a Leaf, take the purchase price into account.
 
You can compare running cost of Tesla against any other 7 series/S class, .........
But Fiasta ST kept being bought up, a 300bhp car. Leaf against a diesel Micra would be good, I stepped out of former directly into latter as courtesy car, I can tell without shadow of doubt which one drives much much better on every single aspects.

These autonomous stuff are currently only assistive, but people don't fully understand their limitations.
But you were comparing a Tesla likely to cost at least £80k with a £56k BMW M3, so not really comparative.

Fiesta ST has barely been mentioned, last model was 180PS and the new model only just launched is 200PS, I have no idea where your getting 300bhp from.
An entry level Leaf is a little under £28k which is a hefty sum for what it is, plus residuals aren't great when you come to trade them in. You can buy a 1yr old example for anything from £14k to £17k which would suggest a trade in figure of £12k to £15k. I don't think there is a single similarly priced ice car that would lose that amount of money in 1 year. So you haven't really saved any money at all by not having to buy fossil fuels, you will already have lost it in depreciation by buying the EV.
I wouldn't say comparing a Leaf with a Micra is exactly going to sell your point to anyone, well not unless they themselves are Micra owners.

Autonomous features are best left as being just assistive. If you can't be bothered to drive, get a cab or better still take the train, don't bother with buses they're just slow and keep causing congestion every time they stop.
 
Autonomous features are best left as being just assistive.
Autonomous driving will reduce the huge human error fatalities we have today. Even if you can't imagine it. You can't see round corners, or know the routes planned by other vehicles. That's what autonomous driving will do. It will also remove the massive gridlock and congestion problems created by manual drivers. Especially 1 person per car cases.

If you can't be bothered to drive, get a cab or better still take the train, don't bother with buses they're just slow and keep causing congestion every time they stop.
Each bus at rush hour is often nearly full, and is taking huge numbers of cars off the road. It's obvious to a lot of people that you should be thanking every bus you see. My bus takes me to the underground, that whisks me across town way faster than any car. Regardless of any macho engine. Then you get some t***, sitting all alone, in his little racing car, actually causing the traffic jams, yet somehow believing it is everybody else's fault. And spewing out noxious gasses at the same time. Then getting all surprised and more angry when the law ends up preventing little racer boy from driving in town, yet buses and autonomous cars are prioritised. This is what we've got ahead of us. The future has great improvements in store for us.
 
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Autonomous driving will reduce the huge human error fatalities we have today. Even if you can't imagine it. You can't see round corners, or know the routes planned by other vehicles. That's what autonomous driving will do. It will also remove the massive gridlock and congestion problems created by manual drivers. Especially 1 person per car cases.

Each bus at rush hour is often nearly full, and is taking huge numbers of cars off the road. It's obvious that you should be thanking every bus you see. Then you get some t***, sitting all alone, in his little racing car, actually causing the traffic jams, yet somehow believing it is everybody else's fault. And spewing out noxious gasses at the same time. Then getting all surprised and more angry when the law prevents little racer boy from driving in town, yet buses and autonomous cars are prioritised.
With years of driving experience you get a sixth sense of what other drivers are going to do. You assume automated systems won't fail, what do you think will happen in that situation.
Buses cause a darn sight more pollution than several cars, I don't think they even have stop start for every time they are stationary, which lets face it is a lot.
Most of the buses in British cities barely conform to Euro 5 emissions let alone Euro 6. That is where vast amounts of pollution is coming from.
 
With years of driving experience you get a sixth sense of what other drivers are going to do. You assume automated systems won't fail, what do you think will happen in that situation.
Buses cause a darn sight more pollution than several cars, I don't think they even have stop start for every time they are stationary, which lets face it is a lot.
Most of the buses in British cities barely conform to Euro 5 emissions let alone Euro 6. That is where vast amounts of pollution is coming from.
Sixth sense? Do you really believe what you write? Face-palm. Do you also not realise that many here are not impressed when you say how experienced you are, or how many bhp your car has?

Buses can take 50 cars off the road. So dirty cars have a long way to go to match their emissions.

And they are already hybrid and electric ones are coming in. Buses are not subject to individuals hangups about new technologies like some unimaginative car drivers are.
 
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Sixth sense? Do you really believe what you write? Face-palm. Do you also not realise that many here are not impressed when you say how experienced you are, or how many bhp your car has?
.
I don't really care if people are impressed or not, that isn't what the statements are about. But your driving inexperience sticks out like a sore thumb and it is obvious why'd you feel the need for automated cars to do the job for you.
Next you'll be wanting an automated bicycle so you don't have to pay attention cycling too.
 
I don't really care if people are impressed or not, that isn't what the statements are about. But your driving inexperience sticks out like a sore thumb and it is obvious why'd you feel the need for automated cars to do the job for you.
Next you'll be wanting an automated bicycle so you don't have to pay attention cycling too.
You don't care? You have no clue about my driving experience. Speculating that I am "inexperienced" based on nothing can't work. And looks like smoke and mirrors again to distract from my last points.

I do care about how I drive, how I affect other motorists, what I feel about motorists who don't care about anybody else, what pollution I cause, and whether the death toll due to bad driving is acceptable. I'm drawn to look for better ways, that benefit everyone. It does not lead me to defend the current terrible and toxic situation and brag about my fantastic car or my excellent driving skills.

But if you don't care, you probably won't understand any of this.
 
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You don't care? You have no clue about my driving experience. Speculating that I am "inexperienced" based on nothing has failed.

I do care about how I drive, how I affect other motorists, what I feel about motorists who don't care about anybody else, what pollution I cause, and whether the death toll due to bad driving is acceptable. I'm drawn to look for better ways, that benefit everyone. It does not lead me to defend the current terrible and toxic situation and brag about my fantastic car or my excellent driving skills.
But you need an automated car to anticipate what other road users are going to do. That tells me you are inexperienced and not taking in everything not just in your vicinity but further afield as well. The fact that you assume I am bragging about my driving and car, just goes to prove how clueless you are.
If you're that worried about pollution in the city, move.
 
But you need an automated car to anticipate what other road users are going to do. That tells me you are inexperienced and not taking in everything not just in your vicinity but further afield as well. The fact that you assume I am bragging about my driving and car, just goes to prove how clueless you are.
If you're that worried about pollution in the city, move.
You said autonomous cars are best left assistive. So you don't realise will be happening. They will be able to see round corners. In the dark an in adverse weather. They will negotiate a route with other vehicles, so no-one needs to stop, give way or even slow down. They will remove traffic lights completely from streets, that manual drivers are prevented from gridlocking up. They will remove bad, arrogant, aggressive boy racers from putting other peoples lives in danger. They will be saving many, many lives.
I see this as a good thing. How can you convince yourself that it is not great. And that todays carnage is in any way ok.
 
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You said autonomous cars are best left assistive. So you don't realise will be happening. They will be able to see round corners. In the dark an in adverse weather. They will negotiate a route with other vehicles, so no-one needs to stop, give way or even slow down. They will remove traffic lights completely from streets, that manual drivers are prevented from gridlocking up. They will remove bad, arrogant, aggressive boy racers from putting other peoples lives in danger. They will be saving many, many lives.
I see this as a good thing. How can you convince yourself that it is not great. And that todays carnage is in any way ok.

I do hope you're not expecting to see this, as yet mythical, car in your lifetime.
 
But you need an automated car to anticipate what other road users are going to do. That tells me you are inexperienced and not taking in everything not just in your vicinity but further afield as well. The fact that you assume I am bragging about my driving and car, just goes to prove how clueless you are.

Don't you ever wonder how the human race survived without all the automated bits vehicles have now.
The pool vans that come down from the workshop when ours go in for repair are often older basic models,
main complaint seems to be "no parking sensors".
Can people really not judge for themselves anymore
As for automatics, I personally hate them.
As you have already said, preconception of what another driver may do is all part of daily driving, someone
once said to me "You are only as good as the worst driver on the road" not quite true if you anticipate and can react quickly.
Got a dashcam in my car to prove the point, some interesting footage shows what idiots are out there
 
You said autonomous cars are best left assistive. So you don't realise will be happening. They will be able to see round corners. In the dark an in adverse weather. They will negotiate a route with other vehicles, so no-one needs to stop, give way or even slow down. They will remove traffic lights completely from streets, that manual drivers are prevented from gridlocking up. They will remove bad, arrogant, aggressive boy racers from putting other peoples lives in danger. They will be saving many, many lives.
I see this as a good thing. How can you convince yourself that it is not great. And that todays carnage is in any way ok.

Assumptions and fantasy again, you really should try to keep your arguments in the real world or at best only mention technology that is actually in development by real people and not just in your head.

The closest I know of of an automated town was one near the Audi factory were they were developing a system that linked to the towns traffic light network and it would interact with the car to advise what speed to travel at in order to get to the lights when they were on green. That was quite a few years ago and as far as I know it's only being adopted by a select few cities in America.
 
Fiesta ST has barely been mentioned, last model was 180PS and the new model only just launched is 200PS, I have no idea where your getting 300bhp from.

You told me:
At stop lights, my lowly 110bhp Leaf will be a car length ahead of your 200bph car while you are leisurely shifting into 2nd gear.
200bhp? Try 345bhp.

LOL, micra - £19k, Leaf - £27k, fair comparison.
Ford Fiesta St - £22k, so £5k of fuel before reaching the purchase cost of the Leaf.

Think again on the Tesla running costs similar to a Leaf, take the purchase price into account.
I did take EVERYTHING into account when I bought my second hand Leaf, and it's still cheaper than fuel cost of my previous car.

I did a similar spreadsheet of a £40k new Tesla Model 3, it'll cost similar to my previous 10 year old Merceds C coupe over 6 years. Including depreciation.

End of the day, if you can't see any way for a EV to work financially, it's your loss. I'm saving big time by driving around in an EV. Second hand town runabout EV makes HUGE financial sense.
 
These autonomous stuff are currently only assistive,
Autonomous features are best left as being just assistive.
Absolutely (y)

Leaf - £27k,
Seriously? wtf? :eek:
Your average "Joe" can't afford that! and probably never will!

Each bus at rush hour is often nearly full, and is taking huge numbers of cars off the road.
See, now I agree with you here, (don't feint) Certainly in the large cities they should be developing an efficient and clean public transport the money would be
much better spent here than wasting it on a pipe dream.

And they are already hybrid and electric ones are coming in.
As I posted a little way back
We have a few electric buses, they are only a "local" service.
I was following a bus, yesterday, and there was a big notice on the back,
"I'm sorry I'm not electric, but while my brothers and sisters are charging, I'm here for you"
I still can't get the image of one milk float towing another or said milk floats on the back of a pick up truck.
This used to happen regularly years ago. But I guess at the time the thoughts were more about "early morning noise" then any such pollution.

the Audi factory were they were developing a system that linked to the towns traffic light network and it would interact with the car to advise what speed to travel at in order to get to the lights when they were on green. That was quite a few years ago
Years ago, I guess it still exists, there is (was) a stretch of the A4 near slough that had the lights set at 30mph, ie if you went through on a green light you could do the
whole stretch at 30 anything more or less you "got caught" by a red one.
 
You said autonomous cars are best left assistive. So you don't realise will be happening. They will be able to see round corners. In the dark an in adverse weather. They will negotiate a route with other vehicles, so no-one needs to stop, give way or even slow down. They will remove traffic lights completely from streets, that manual drivers are prevented from gridlocking up. They will remove bad, arrogant, aggressive boy racers from putting other peoples lives in danger. They will be saving many, many lives.
I see this as a good thing. How can you convince yourself that it is not great. And that todays carnage is in any way ok.
For that to happen, all other cars would have to be banned from the road. That isn't going to happen for many many decades.
I notice you avoided answering my question about what you think will happen when a cars system fails or suffers a momentary glitch. It has the potential to cause disaster just as a driver making a mistake or doing something stupid.
You seem to be fixated on boy racers for some obtuse reason, you do realise they predominantly only come out on a Saturday night and will be found doing burnouts in a superstore car park.
 
For that to happen, all other cars would have to be banned from the road. That isn't going to happen for many many decades.
Banning manual cars will occur in the hotspots first. Such as parts of cities.
I notice you avoided answering my question about what you think will happen when a cars system fails or suffers a momentary glitch. It has the potential to cause disaster just as a driver making a mistake or doing something stupid.
Yes. It could happen. But still the death toll would be significantly less than today. We will still be much better off.
 
You told me:




I did take EVERYTHING into account when I bought my second hand Leaf, and it's still cheaper than fuel cost of my previous car.

I did a similar spreadsheet of a £40k new Tesla Model 3, it'll cost similar to my previous 10 year old Merceds C coupe over 6 years. Including depreciation.

End of the day, if you can't see any way for a EV to work financially, it's your loss. I'm saving big time by driving around in an EV. Second hand town runabout EV makes HUGE financial sense.
No I didn't, You really don't know cars do you. The Fiesta ST is a small hot hatch, with 200PS about 197bhp. That car has only just recently been mentioned in the thread. There is no Ford car in the UK with 300bhp from the factory. However the Focus RS, a medium sized family hatchback has 350PS or 345bhp.

Financially an EV doesn't make sense new because it's depreciation is far greater in it's first year than an equivalently priced ice car. They seem to lose around 50% in their 1st year, against most ice cars losing around 30%. Ice cars tend to be at 50% after 3yrs. So how much is that EV worth after another 2 years a great deal less again I would imagine. So even though you think you have got a bargain buying a 2nd hand EV and save money on fuel, you will still have a bigger financial loss when the time comes to off load the car.
 
You told me:




I did take EVERYTHING into account when I bought my second hand Leaf, and it's still cheaper than fuel cost of my previous car.

I did a similar spreadsheet of a £40k new Tesla Model 3, it'll cost similar to my previous 10 year old Merceds C coupe over 6 years. Including depreciation.

End of the day, if you can't see any way for a EV to work financially, it's your loss. I'm saving big time by driving around in an EV. Second hand town runabout EV makes HUGE financial sense.

More and more fantasy thinking. You have managed to produce a cost forecast for a car that is a) Not being produced until 2019 and b) Tesla have not released the UK price for yet.

The currently available UK Tesla's are in the £80k bracket and I think it's fair to assume that when anyone mentions Tesla without qualifying which model the assumption would be the currently available ones.
Even with you taking everything into account, you are comparing a £40k (guess) Tesla with a 10yr old Merc worth god only knows, but I'd guess considerably less than £10k, so £30k on fuel over 6 years, really, are you sure. Unless of course I have completely misunderstood your point, which I could have easily done considering how you seem to move around with your references depending on the point being made.
 
Years ago, I guess it still exists, there is (was) a stretch of the A4 near slough that had the lights set at 30mph, ie if you went through on a green light you could do the
whole stretch at 30 anything more or less you "got caught" by a red one.

Yep, many cities have that setup, if you manage to go through on green at the speed limit you could end up never stopping. Think London cabbies refer to it as riding the green wave.
Nothing to do with autonomous cars though. The Audi solution sounds interesting and workable if it's compatible with all manufacturers, it must link in with the cars navigation system. Hell, my car advises me when to lift of the accelerator when approaching a junction if I have it in Eco Pro mode.
 
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