Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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wuyanxu said:
So you agree the cars are of different size and different class. Size and capability plays a big part in vehicle pricing, comparing them as EV SUV is fine if you don't take price into consideration, but you and many articles did.

I didn't say motorway service charging points, nor did you. The press did say just exactly that, not fully understanding the reason behind it.
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I think you are failing to see how comparisons work. It's a limited choice so the grouping will be run of the mill brands against premium brands. You can't compare the Jag with the likes of Kia etc because the don't fall into the same brand category.

The press is reporting on what an expert has said about banning Phev from using motorway charge points, that's like saying a diesel car owner who only wants to put 1 gallon in his tank should have priority over a petrol car owner who wants to put two or three gallons into their tank.
 
nilagin said:
The press is reporting on what an expert has said about banning Phev from using motorway charge points, that's like saying a diesel car owner who only wants to put 1 gallon in his tank should have priority over a petrol car owner who wants to put two or three gallons into their tank.
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Go read the report properly: https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-co...f_the_UK_CPN_Harold_Dermott_December_2018.pdf

The public chargepont network (CPN) should not make any provision on motorways and trunk roads for charging PHEVs until these vehicles have an electric range that is relevant for use on motorways and trunk roads and a 50 kW Rapid charging capability
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Notice the report's bold statements. No one is saying PHEV should be banned, just that current PHEV are very bad EV's.

Your analogy shows, again, you don't understand EV. It would be more like: People filling at full speed from empty tank should be given priority over those who drip feed their car.

The PHEV are not full EV, apart from very few exceptions, they can't recharge at same speed as full EV. PHEV, as pointed out by the actual report, is designed to run on ICE for long journey. Rapid charging is designed to enable long journey for full EV's. Totally different use-cases, the only reason slow charging PHEV are using rapid is due to lack of driver education.

I have been saying this for a LONG time, none of these is a problem if we are using a time based payment system. You use 50kW charger and you pay, for example 10p per minute. If you have a full EV charging at 50kW, you pay 12p per kWh, £6 for 150 miles, very cheap. If you have PHEV and can only charge at 3kW, you'll soon learn using a 50kW charger inappropriately means paying £2 per kWh and you'd paid £6 for 10 miles. AKA a pointless exercise.
 
wuyanxu said:
Go read the report properly: https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-co...f_the_UK_CPN_Harold_Dermott_December_2018.pdf



Notice the report's bold statements. No one is saying PHEV should be banned, just that current PHEV are very bad EV's.

Your analogy shows, again, you don't understand EV. It would be more like: People filling at full speed from empty tank should be given priority over those who drip feed their car.

The PHEV are not full EV, apart from very few exceptions, they can't recharge at same speed as full EV. PHEV, as pointed out by the actual report, is designed to run on ICE for long journey.
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Try reading the paragraph from the report before the one you quoted.


EV isn't the best system at the moment because of It's lack of range so why should it have priority over public charging points. Imagine a case of a Phev owner has used up most of his battery energy in town, they now need to make a long journey to another place of work where they will only be allowed to use battery power, they will need a recharge on the way. If they get to a charging station first they should be allowed to use it and the EV owner can wait, find another and whilst doing so contemplate buying a vehicle with a powertrain more suitable to their needs.
 
nilagin said:
Try reading the paragraph from the report before the one you quoted.


EV isn't the best system at the moment because of It's lack of range so why should it have priority over public charging points. Imagine a case of a Phev owner has used up most of his battery energy in town, they now need to make a long journey to another place of work where they will only be allowed to use battery power, they will need a recharge on the way. If they get to a charging station first they should be allowed to use it and the EV owner can wait, find another and whilst doing so contemplate buying a vehicle with a powertrain more suitable to their needs.
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This one?
Irrespective of what charge rate a roadside AC chargepoint is capable of delivering, all current PHEVs will be limited by the capacity of their on-board chargers to 3.6 kW
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How is that different to what I was saying?
wuyanxu said:
The PHEV are not full EV, apart from very few exceptions, they can't recharge at same speed as full EV.
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You are ignoring the elephant in the room: difference in charging speed. It is a new concept, so I can understand it would be hard for you to grasp ;) If you often visit places where you are only allowed to use battery power, then you should have bought a batter electric car. Or range extended EV.

Its really simple: all EV can recharge slowly at destination charger (eg. 7kW home charging). Only full battery EV (and i3 REx, Outlander PHEV) can use rapid charger.

Let's put it another way, just because the petrol nozzle can fit in a diesel car, doesn't mean you should use the petrol nozzle to refill your diesel car. You are not using the right stuff for your vehicle.
 
No I'm sorry I DO own that space outside my house

https://electricbrighton.com/faqs/how-do-people-without-off-street-parking-charge-their-cars

He persuaded the council to install a charger at his cost, on the public road, that only he can park at and use. Ingenious solution to EV ownership in roads where driveways are impracticable and guarenteeing you a parking space in a busy road.

That doesn't look like council painting on the road - wonder if the home owner did that?
 
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Byker28i said:
No I'm sorry I DO own that space outside my house

https://electricbrighton.com/faqs/how-do-people-without-off-street-parking-charge-their-cars

He persuaded the council to install a charger at his cost, on the public road, that only he can park at and use. Ingenious solution to EV ownership in roads where driveways are impracticable and guarenteeing you a parking space in a busy road.

That doesn't look like council painting on the road - wonder if the home owner did that?
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Virtually on top of a bus stop too. Still, it couldn't happen in a nicer city.
 
wuyanxu said:
This one?

How is that different to what I was saying?


You are ignoring the elephant in the room: difference in charging speed. It is a new concept, so I can understand it would be hard for you to grasp ;) If you often visit places where you are only allowed to use battery power, then you should have bought a batter electric car. Or range extended EV.

Its really simple: all EV can recharge slowly at destination charger (eg. 7kW home charging). Only full battery EV (and i3 REx, Outlander PHEV) can use rapid charger.

Let's put it another way, just because the petrol nozzle can fit in a diesel car, doesn't mean you should use the petrol nozzle to refill your diesel car. You are not using the right stuff for your vehicle.
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You once again failed to see the bit about Phevs blocking rapid charge stations. If that is all that is available regardless of how quick it will charge a Phev, why should it only be available to EV cars? The EV should just wait until another charge point becomes available. At least with Jaguar's app, the charge point can be pre-booked which then gives them the right over the charge point over anyone else.

I can't speak for other car manufacturers but for over 10yrs on Ford cars, it is impossible to put a diesel nozzle in petrol cars and likewise you can't put a petrol nozzle in a diesel car.
 
nilagin said:
At least with Jaguar's app, the charge point can be pre-booked which then gives them the right over the charge point over anyone else.

I can't speak for other car manufacturers but for over 10yrs on Ford cars, it is impossible to put a diesel nozzle in petrol cars and likewise you can't put a petrol nozzle in a diesel car.
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What if an unbooked-in EV is already parked and charging at a bookable slot? Will they get their charge stopped if the slot gets booked? Any amount of booking still won't stop an ICE car parking in the slot either.

A Diesel nozzle won't fit down most petrol filler tubes. I know a petrol nozzle will physically fit down a Diesel tube but my car has a system that blocks it somehow and needs a tool to reset it before correct filling. Probably a Ford based system since the XF is based on a Ford platform.
 
Nod said:
What if an unbooked-in EV is already parked and charging at a bookable slot? Will they get their charge stopped if the slot gets booked? Any amount of booking still won't stop an ICE car parking in the slot either.

A Diesel nozzle won't fit down most petrol filler tubes. I know a petrol nozzle will physically fit down a Diesel tube but my car has a system that blocks it somehow and needs a tool to reset it before correct filling. Probably a Ford based system since the XF is based on a Ford platform.
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No idea what will happen if another person is using the overbooked space, perhaps the charge point will be inoperable until the rightful charger enters a code or registration number. Not sure what will happen if someone else is already using it or has gone over their allotted time and not yet returned to their car. Regardless of that I can envisage people unplugging cars to recharge their own and arguments and possibly fights ensuing.
If your Jag system is the same as Ford, the wrong nozzle just can't open the small flap at the top of the nozzle, not sure how, if I need to use a fuel can there is a plastic funnel in the boot which opens the flap.
 
nilagin said:
You once again failed to see the bit about Phevs blocking rapid charge stations. If that is all that is available regardless of how quick it will charge a Phev, why should it only be available to EV cars? The EV should just wait until another charge point becomes available. At least with Jaguar's app, the charge point can be pre-booked which then gives them the right over the charge point over anyone else.

I can't speak for other car manufacturers but for over 10yrs on Ford cars, it is impossible to put a diesel nozzle in petrol cars and likewise you can't put a petrol nozzle in a diesel car.
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Just because the plug fits, doesn't mean you can use it. How many years did it take the car industry to come up with petrol-preventing diesel fuel caps? We are at early days with EV, drivers need education. But educating buyers is not the main focus of traditional dealers.

Let me re-repeat this: there are 2 types of charging: up to 7kW destination charging and 50+kW en-route rapid charging. Most PHEV are only able to do 3kW destination charging. Rapid charging network is enabler for full battery EV to drive long distances, PHEV charging at 3kW is not much different to ICE car blocking the space.
Study carefully the difference between the numbers 3 and 50.

Pre-book doesn't work. Ask Source London users. Installing more than enough chargers is the only solution. The 32amp chargers (7kW or 22kW if you have 3-phase) are not very expensive, it's essentially a socket with safety checks. For PHEV, you arrive at destination, if it's available, you plug in. If it's not available, you do your return journey on petrol. For EV, if it's not available, you do a quick pit-stop at a rapid charger if needed (never needed for me because public infrastructure had been optional for my 60 miles range EV, it'll also be optional most of the time for 200+ miles EV's you buy today)
 
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The Toyota Prius was renamed the Pious because of their elitist owners reactions to ICE car owners. I can see many EV owners going the same way.
"You can't use that charger, because I need it more".
"You can't use that parking space outside my house, because I may need to recharge my car".

It's going to get far worse before it will ever run smoothly.
 
wuyanxu said:
Just because the plug fits, doesn't mean you can use it. How many years did it take the car industry to come up with petrol-preventing diesel fuel caps?


For PHEV, you arrive at destination, if it's available, you plug in. If it's not available, you do your return journey on petrol. For EV, if it's not available, you do a quick pit-stop at a rapid charger if needed (never needed for me because public infrastructure had been optional for my 60 miles range EV, it'll also be optional most of the time for 200+ miles EV's you buy today)
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For many years there was no real need for preventing putting petrol in diesel cars because there were so few diesel cars it never really posed a problem. It is only as diesel engined cars became more prolific that misfuelling became a problem.

What if the Phev needs a bit of a charge to drive in a low emissions zone where use of an ICE vehicle is banned?


Seems to me everyone is having to make way for EV because the EV cars and infrastructure are trying to run before they can walk.
 
nilagin said:
I can see many EV owners going the same way.
"You can't use that charger, because I need it more"..
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Chargers are first come first serve. Simples.

Only you are the one choosing to continue to not understand the vast difference between numbers 3 and 50.

nilagin said:
For many years there was no real need for preventing putting petrol in diesel cars because there were so few diesel cars it never really posed a problem. It is only as diesel engined cars became more prolific that misfuelling became a problem.

Seems to me everyone is having to make way for EV because the EV cars and infrastructure are trying to run before they can walk.
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Same as the initial diesel roll out. As PHEV become more prolific, misunderstanding of charger capability is also becoming a problem. The RAC report attempted to address that knowledge gap, what is your problem? Is it because the status quo of oil industry and ICE related jobs is being challenged?

PHEV is the one trying hard to impress, trying hard to appear green and trying extra hard to appear as an EV. But actually they are no more than 20 years old Toyota Prius with a slightly bigger battery. If use of ICE is banned in town and your already out-of-date PHEV's pitiful electric range isn't enough, then buy a full battery EV or use park and ride.
 
nilagin said:
It's in The Mail so won't be relevant.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...ISE-ATKINSON-says-electric-cars-shocking.html
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I knew this will be posted by you.

Here are what the sensible would say: https://www.speakev.com/threads/electric-cars-theyre-shockingly-bad.131784/
“Person does no research or thinking about the very expensive purchase they’re making and then get angry at the system when they realise that they should have done some research and thinking”
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Obviously EV's are completely impractical without a home charging point and she likely knew that beforehand. (with the free Chargemaster install from Renault, they would have contacted her before delivery to organize it)

To come up with a "story", she had to fall back to "The EV charging infastructure is shockingly bad", which is, well, basically true, and I suspect she deliberately failed to install a home charger in order to better make this argument.

Nowhere was she able to criticize the vehicle itself (a Zoe), indeed giving it some praise. The article did not support the headline "EV's are shockingly bad"

If this helps speed up infrastructure improvement, that's fine by me.
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What research do petrol car owners do around filling up? None. They expect to just be able to do it but apparently EV owners have to know all about the 80 different hoops EV owners have to jump through and know it perfectly or they're stupid and didn't do their research.
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EV isn't bad, it's the infrastructure. What is helping the infrastructure? The RAC report, by educating drivers and potential buyers.


Early Merry Christmas and Happy new year everyone :). I'm out of the country until new year.
 
wuyanxu said:
Chargers are first come first serve. Simples.

Only you are the one choosing to continue to not understand the vast difference between numbers 3 and 50.


Same as the initial diesel roll out. As PHEV become more prolific, misunderstanding of charger capability is also becoming a problem. The RAC report attempted to address that knowledge gap, what is your problem? Is it because the status quo of oil industry and ICE related jobs is being challenged?

PHEV is the one trying hard to impress, trying hard to appear green and trying extra hard to appear as an EV. But actually they are no more than 20 years old Toyota Prius with a slightly bigger battery. If use of ICE is banned in town and your already out-of-date PHEV's pitiful electric range isn't enough, then buy a full battery EV or use park and ride.
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I think you'll find it is EV that is fighting hard to prove it is green and it will continue to be fighting whilst the charging infrastucture is so poor and the ranges so low. Even a 300 mile range is poor, if 200 to 300 mile ranges were ever going to be adequate, car manufacturers wouldn't bother fitting fuel tanks giving cars twice that.
 
wuyanxu said:
PHEV is the one trying hard to impress, trying hard to appear green and trying extra hard to appear as an EV. But actually they are no more than 20 years old Toyota Prius with a slightly bigger battery. If use of ICE is banned in town and your already out-of-date PHEV's pitiful electric range isn't enough, then buy a full battery EV or use park and ride.
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A man on business has used most of his electrical charge in one city. He now drives a long distance using the engine in his Phev but requires a recharge to give him enough battery for the next city where he can only use the motor. He needs to transport stuff for his work so park and ride is of no use. The Ev's pitiful range is no good for the long distances he will need to between cities so neither is really ideal but the Phev is the better option of the two.
What would be the best option is stop the unnecessary scaremongering on the latest diesel cars, remove the older dirtier diesels from the roads, that will help lower CO2 levels again, stop the use of unregulated diesel generators on building sites and refrigerated trucks, ban log burner stoves and concentrate on improving the charging infrastructure instead of enticing people into EV cars before it can cope and educate people at the point of sale or lease.
 
There's a story here....

Jeremy Clarkson‏Verified account @JeremyClarkson Nov 18
JLR delivery people. Don’t come to London to pick up the iPace tomorrow. I couldn’t charge it so it’s not there.
 
I'd rather have an E-Type conversion (and see Ford doing something like this rather than a small company.)
 
nilagin said:
EV replica 67 Mustang
https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/tesla-mustang-aviar-r67/amp/

Now that's the sort of thing that will tempt people into an EV. A decent prospective range too. Shame it will likely be out of most people's price range.
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There were a couple of companies at Classic Le Man last year showing their conversions. One had packed their implementation to give and engine styling to the under bonnet package.
Also some at the classic car show. Most had range issues, or practicalities where the batteries were installed in cars not designed for them, i.e. luggage space
 
wuyanxu said:
Go read the report properly: https://www.racfoundation.org/wp-co...f_the_UK_CPN_Harold_Dermott_December_2018.pdf



.................. just that current PHEV are very bad EV's......................
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That's a simplistic sweeping statement which does not take into account the way the vehicle is used.

We have a Golf GTE which has a limited electric-only range (~24 miles).

However, it suits the journeys we typically do very well....hence in over 22,000 miles, it has averaged ~154 mpg.....and is frequently charged by our 4kw/h solar panels.

So, for us, it is very far from a 'very bad EV'.
 
OH FFS!
I've some friends in Wiltshire with a Nissan Leaf 30Kw, who want to join us sometime in Pembroke. Claimed max range of the Leaf is 155 miles, realistically it's 130 miles range and they are 160 miles away...

So I'm now in the process of trying to find hows long it will take them to get here. They could stop at Swansea services and recharge, drive here, then stop again and recharge on the way back to get them home.
There's nowhere near to recharge - I even took a drive out to the Local Aldi to see if they had recharge points...

I might suggest they hire a diesel :D
 
srichards said:
There's a geniepoint rapid charger at texaco withybush if thats any help.
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Havefordwest - Hum 30-40 mins away in realtime.
I know theres a 22Kw charger in the Riverside car park at Haverfordwest

So these are a couple with health issues who don't walk. I think Swansea Moto services for a full charge would work, but that's then 55 miles to here. If they don't use the car whilst here, they've got just about the range back there, provided the charging points are working, free etc. To be safe I'd have to find somewhere local we could park the car and use a domestic plug for a top up.

Just an example of real world travel - ok to the ends of Wales but...
 
Wales is particularly crap for charging. Tell them to go and buy a Hyundai kona 64kwh Would probably do there and back on one charge if they drove at leaf dawdling speeds...
 
Byker28i said:
Havefordwest - Hum 30-40 mins away in realtime.
I know theres a 22Kw charger in the Riverside car park at Haverfordwest

So these are a couple with health issues who don't walk. I think Swansea Moto services for a full charge would work, but that's then 55 miles to here. If they don't use the car whilst here, they've got just about the range back there, provided the charging points are working, free etc. To be safe I'd have to find somewhere local we could park the car and use a domestic plug for a top up.

Just an example of real world travel - ok to the ends of Wales but...
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It all goes to nicely illustrate the point that the present small battery electric vehicles can fit a particular short travel niche very effectively, but are absolutely locked into that space.
 
Byker28i said:
I might suggest they hire a diesel :D
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Not a bad idea! They haven't got the right vehicle to do the trip they want to so they'll have to spend some of their fuel and tax savings on some sort of rental.
 
srichards said:
Wales is particularly crap for charging. Tell them to go and buy a Hyundai kona 64kwh Would probably do there and back on one charge if they drove at leaf dawdling speeds...
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They've just bought the leaf!
[
It is indeed. Especially if you don't have anywhere you can run a cable
 
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