Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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nilagin said:
A man on business has used most of his electrical charge in one city. He now drives a long distance using the engine in his Phev but requires a recharge to give him enough battery for the next city where he can only use the motor. He needs to transport stuff for his work so park and ride is of no use. The Ev's pitiful range is no good for the long distances he will need to between cities so neither is really ideal but the Phev is the better option of the two.
What would be the best option is stop the unnecessary scaremongering on the latest diesel cars, remove the older dirtier diesels from the roads, that will help lower CO2 levels again, stop the use of unregulated diesel generators on building sites and refrigerated trucks, ban log burner stoves and concentrate on improving the charging infrastructure instead of enticing people into EV cars before it can cope and educate people at the point of sale or lease.
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So either way, the said man on business has to stop to charge to be able to drive in the city, PHEV means to charge for 1 hour gaining 15 miles, the EV can stop for 30min and gain 150 miles, enough to cover the distance between cities. I know for sure I'd prefer the latter, simply became the stop is not a complete waste of my time.

Question to you, removing older diesels, who will benefit the most from this? Is it the ones selling cars? Haven't we been through this in the late 90's early 2000's where everyone switched to diesels for similar reasons? Look at how that turned out?

At least with EV, it produces zero emissions. The car on your drive will not breach emission standards in 10/20 years time. It will only get greener as electricity generation get greener.

nilagin said:
EV Fuel duty?
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/smart-charging-could-lead-electric-vehicle-fuel-tax
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Again, read the actual article might help. Here's insight from industry expert:
However, McKemey concedes that taxing of en-route public rapid charging would be relatively simple. Other difficulties would include plugging loopholes, such as the use of slow, 13-amp charging cables and the fact that thousands of basic charging points, which aren't capable of smart charging, have already been installed.

McKemey goes on to say that government bodies he talks to are leaning more towards the idea of road pricing. Fuel duty is effectively an emissions tax, but EVs create no tailpipe emissions.

...

A Treasury spokesperson said, “We currently have no plans to levy a new tax on charging points for Electric Vehicles. We keep all taxes under review and any changes to the tax system would be announced at the Budget and consulted on thoroughly in the usual way.”
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As I've said previously. Too many loop holes for proper home charging taxation. En-route rapid charging tax + some sort of road-use tax is the way forward.

I'd prefer the road-use tax to be based on environmental damage from producing the vehicle. Bigger battery = more tax. But tax rate tails off as the vehicle ages, so it incentivises people to keep older big battery EV. (eg. for a big 90kWh battery, first year £300, 80% of previous year rate, so after 6 years it'll be less than £100, cheaper tax than a new 50kWh car.
 
wuyanxu said:
Question to you, removing older diesels, who will benefit the most from this? Is it the ones selling cars? Haven't we been through this in the late 90's early 2000's where everyone switched to diesels for similar reasons? Look at how that turned out?
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The initial move to diesel was because of the economy advantages over a similar powered petrol engine.
Then came the pressure from the EU to reduce CO2 levels. Diesels produce lower CO2 levels so VED was adjusted to suit and people took advantage of it. Manufacturers just built cars to suit demand. There was no interest about the other tailpipe emissions at that time.
 
nilagin said:
The initial move to diesel was because of the economy advantages over a similar powered petrol engine.
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25% increased range plus it was a cheaper fuel at the time, although the performance wasn't there. As people switched so manufacturers took diesel engines seriously and started research/work to make them more powerful, cleaner etc. Of course the government then increased tax on diesel so it became the more expensive fuel.

Quite a few parallels could be drawn there if EV cars take off the same.
 
Luckily this time round, EV won't have any tailpipe emission problems. Once you own an EV, the longer you keep it on the road, the less environmental damage you do per-mile. It's a win-win for both consumers and environment.


Byker28i said:
OH FFS!
I've some friends in Wiltshire with a Nissan Leaf 30Kw, who want to join us sometime in Pembroke. Claimed max range of the Leaf is 155 miles, realistically it's 130 miles range and they are 160 miles away...

So I'm now in the process of trying to find hows long it will take them to get here. They could stop at Swansea services and recharge, drive here, then stop again and recharge on the way back to get them home.
There's nowhere near to recharge - I even took a drive out to the Local Aldi to see if they had recharge points...
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How did the visit go?

If they haven't visited yet. Have you thought about running a (good quality) extension cable to the car from your house? EV's are best used with overnight charging. Covering 160 miles in a 100 miles EV is easily done if you set off with a full charge.

whyone said:
That's a simplistic sweeping statement which does not take into account the way the vehicle is used.

We have a Golf GTE which has a limited electric-only range (~24 miles).

However, it suits the journeys we typically do very well....hence in over 22,000 miles, it has averaged ~154 mpg.....and is frequently charged by our 4kw/h solar panels.

So, for us, it is very far from a 'very bad EV'.
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Let's be honest, it's still very very far from a good EV, because you were still forced to use non-EV drivetrain to drive it any distance.

Over 10,000 miles I've driven in my EV over last year, I've averaged infinite mpg because I used zero litres of fossil fuel. You simply cannot do the same with PHEV because its lack of range and lack of rapid charging capability. Those two are the cornerstones of a good EV.


Speaking of features for a good EV, metrics needs to change:
https://electrek.co/2018/12/21/porsche-new-electric-vehicle-metric-taycan/
Porsche are talking about distance covered in 24 hour as the new metric for EV. This is similar to what I had been saying previously, a single metric is not enough to cover the car's capabilities. We'd then have rapid-gate from the disappointing 2018 Leaf 40kwh. I had been suggesting time-to-do-600-miles as a metric, the distance-in-24hr is similar idea. This covers repeated rapid+ charging as well as the car's battery thermal management capabilities.
 
wuyanxu said:
How did the visit go?

If they haven't visited yet. Have you thought about running a (good quality) extension cable to the car from your house? EV's are best used with overnight charging. Covering 160 miles in a 100 miles EV is easily done if you set off with a full charge.
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Didn't happen. They couldn't work out a way to do it with the available charge points on route that worked, that they felt comfortable with.
Can't run a cable as it would need to run over a pavement and I'd have to leave a window open, on a busy for pedestrians main street, that has 1 hour parking 8am to 6pm and you wouldn't guarantee getting a spot. That old chestnut of EV's don't work if you haven't a driveway/dedicated charging point and the charging network isn't complete
 
wuyanxu said:
Let's be honest, it's still very very far from a good EV, because you were still forced to use non-EV drivetrain to drive it any distance.

Over 10,000 miles I've driven in my EV over last year, I've averaged infinite mpg because I used zero litres of fossil fuel. You simply cannot do the same with PHEV because its lack of range and lack of rapid charging capability. Those two are the cornerstones of a good EV.
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Can you be certain you used 'zero litres' of fossil fuel in your 10,000 miles?

You may not have put any directly into the car, but where did your electrons come from?

(And I still contend that, for us and our journey profile, with a Solar PV capability and the zero range anxiety the GTE PHEV provides (and will shift well for such a heavy vehicle, though wont save the planet whilst doing so) is for us a very good compromise indeed).
 
How much energy does it take to convert the plastics into Hydrogen? While it's a nice idea, the problems involved in production and storage of the fuel will take some solving.
 
Nod said:
How much energy does it take to convert the plastics into Hydrogen? While it's a nice idea, the problems involved in production and storage of the fuel will take some solving.
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Storage probably not much of a problem. There is a local college not far from us, that Toyota have a facility in. They have hydrogen storage that cab drivers with hydrogen cell Toyotas use to refuel.
 
Any link(s) to up-to-date Hydrogen fuel stations open to the public? Google throws up very little in the way of recent maps.
 
Today on the news they say that the average person now uses 25% less electricity then we did a few years ago
Wonder how much all these electric cars will alter that and of course with a drop in revenue the price rises will
will come so those of us with petrol/diesel vehicles will not only pay more for our motoring fuel but also
for domestic electric supplies unless they come up with something to isolate the different uses ie car charging versus
domestic use
 
Nod said:
Any link(s) to up-to-date Hydrogen fuel stations open to the public? Google throws up very little in the way of recent maps.
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According the the latest 5th Gear series there is only 2 in the London area
 
So an even worse publicly available infrastructure than that for EVs.
 
Nod said:
Any link(s) to up-to-date Hydrogen fuel stations open to the public? Google throws up very little in the way of recent maps.
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Theres a few
https://www.netinform.net/H2/H2Stations/H2Stations.aspx

but then the current cars like the Hyundai Nexo has a 500 mile range. Unlike Ev cars they only take 5 mins to refuel

Swindon had the UK’s first fully renewable hydrogen station opened in 2011, in a Honda dealership. The station is able to produce hydrogen on a commercial scale using solar power, without relying on the UK energy grid.

There are now six hydrogen-powered cars running on Swindon’s streets every day. This is thanks to leasing firms such as Arval, which has taken the leap into hydrogen and incorporated the cars into its fleet. Vehicles are now being leased to organisations such as the Science Museum Group and the National Trust, while Swindon Council has installed a second hydrogen station and may have more on the way, because Arval plans to have 170 hydrogen cars in the town by 2020.
 
Closest to me seems to be Swindon - about 2 hours away and 100 miles or so. Toyota Mirai seems to be ~ £66,000. I'll stick with the Leaf for local and the others for longer distances.
 
Problem with hydrogen is that it can't recharge at home (biggest negative, still have to detour to filling stations for daily commutes), has shorter range than a lot of traditional ICE cars and hydrogen stations are very rare.

Hydrogen fuel cell conversion efficiency is also very low, compared to battery as energy storage.
50% H2 to electricity conversion efficiency, compared to 95% efficiency for battery to discharge its stored energy. Then there's the 30% loss in electrolysis to generate the hydrogen.
Source: https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ficiency-vs-hydrogen-gasoline-diesel-analysis
The only reason Swindon solar powered hydrogen works is because there's very few cars about and their usage is managed. Same solar power fed into a stationary battery then used to charge EV's will go a LOT further.

If we want to switch to use a new fuel, we ought to start with the most efficient fuel.
 
wuyanxu said:
Problem with hydrogen is that it can't recharge at home (biggest
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Problem with EV is many people Can't recharge at home.
Like filling up petrol and diesel tanks, it can be done in a couple of minutes and your on your way. As the article I linked to says, Toyota is helping to install 100 hydrogen producing/filling stations in the UK and if demand for such vehicles increases and more car manufacturers also produce fuel cell vehicles, the network will grow. Plus it has the added benefit of using up all the plastic waste.
 
TBH if Hydrogen were only 10 years behind EV then it would be very hard to justify encouraging EV development. Hydrogen should side-step the issues with rare metals, mining, local pollution & abuse of the poor by using commonly available materials.
 
I was chatting to an MOT tester yesterday, This hadn't crossed my mind at all....
Curiously, emissions are not part of the test for a Hybrid, as the engine only kicks in when the battery is low and they can't "force" the engine to start.
There's a nice little work around waiting to happen ;)
@nilagin are there Diesel hybrids?
 
Yet...
 
nilagin said:
Problem with EV is many people Can't recharge at home.
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Whereas NOBODY can refill a Hydrogen cell at home and many people can plug their EVs in there.
 
Nod said:
Whereas NOBODY can refill a Hydrogen cell at home and many people can plug their EVs in there.
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And? They will still have to recharge overnight where as refuelling will be no more of a hindrance than the couple of minutes it takes to fill a petrol or diesel tank, a tenth of the time it takes for a rapid charge that only gives 80% charge anyway.
 
That ignores the drive each way for me to get to the closest Hydrogen dispenser. Plugging in overnight isn't a problem.
 
Nod said:
That ignores the drive each way for me to get to the closest Hydrogen dispenser. Plugging in overnight isn't a problem.
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None of us can fill our petrol or diesel powered car at home either. IF there's a decent supply netowrk then H2 is as viable as fossil fuels, but otherwise not.
 
Nod said:
That ignores the drive each way for me to get to the closest Hydrogen dispenser. Plugging in overnight isn't a problem.
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It's not ignoring it at all, I mentioned refuelling. At the moment the demand for hydrogen fuel stations is small as there are so few hydrogen cell cars on the road, but if demand increases then so will the number of fuelling stations. Just as the number of EV charging points is growing to meet the growing number of EV cars.
 
As you point out, IF there's a decent supply network. Currently, there is not, while many of us can charge EVs at home.

FWIW, I'm under no misapprehension that EVs suit everyone - they don't meet all our needs, hence we have other vehicles but for keeping as many tailpipe emissions out of the city centre, they do a pretty good job.
 
Nod said:
Yet...
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This guy is a senior tech and MOT tester at a very well respected (independent) service center.
I'm sure he knows what he's talking about...

Cobra said:
as the engine only kicks in when the battery is low and they can't "force" the engine to start.
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Pretty sure that when we looked at a hybrid, we could select which power source to use (except for the first few minutes when the ICE had to be running).
 
ancient_mariner said:
TBH if Hydrogen were only 10 years behind EV then it would be very hard to justify encouraging EV development. Hydrogen should side-step the issues with rare metals, mining, local pollution & abuse of the poor by using commonly available materials.
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Exactly this. Hydrogen is definitely something I'd be interested in down the line in 10 years for all those reasons. The potential for much better green credentials even over eV too. Depending how the hydrogen was generated. The potential for much better range and reduced refuel times are also a big plus.

Yeah there are barely any fueling points NOW but its hardly surprising when tech is in its infancy. Hopefully the supply availability is thought about much better than eV before it starts getting pushed as mainstream tech.
 
For a lot of people, there's no problem with supply availability for EVs now.
 
As I said, for a lot of people, not all.
 
Never got smelly hands from plugging the Leaf in - a normal situation when filling the XF, even using the gloves provided.
 
Nod said:
As you point out, IF there's a decent supply network. Currently, there is not, while many of us can charge EVs at home.

FWIW, I'm under no misapprehension that EVs suit everyone - they don't meet all our needs, hence we have other vehicles but for keeping as many tailpipe emissions out of the city centre, they do a pretty good job.
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If I can could charge them at home an EV would be my next car but along with 55% (I believe) of the population I can't so its a no goer for me im afraid.
 
What are people doing that results in smelly hands putting fuel in the car? :thinking:
 
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viv1969 said:
What are people doing that results in smelly hands putting fuel in the car? :thinking:
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I wondered that myself. I have had 4 diesel cars plus had to put diesel into two work cars and never ended up with smelly hands. Never worn any of the gloves neither.
 
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