Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[Byker28i]

64 reg 18k odometer 95% battery health Sunderland built Leaf Tekna 24kWh. PCP is £114 per month for 8k annual miles 36 months. But including my trade-in value, the grand total I will pay for the car will be £9100, then I'll own the car outright. Finance deal includes 2 years free servicing, 1 year free warranty including MOT and free home charger install. I also have solar panels on my roof and pay 100% renewable electricity company for my imported electricity.

I've been driving the Leaf on my daily commute of 60 miles, mostly motorway

Thats why I couldn't make it work for my daily commute and I took a serious look at options - even thinking about selling the TVR towards a tesla because of the mileage. It just doesn't work with the smaller cars, it certainly doesn't work for me on PCP because of the low mileage, I would have to buy outright.

2 year old Leaf Tekna 24kWh is around £12K upwards so you didn't trade in much, however thats still a cost. I hired a similar leaf for a week, stuck the charger through my power monitor and it was costing me around 2.5p a mile to charge it at home (overnight economy 7 ), or free at a couple of clients with chargers. Thats around 4-5 times cheaper than my petrol or diesel car which is why I took a serious look at it. The range was terrible with motorway driving and I got bored trying to eek out the range. I think it had a realistic range of 90-100 miles.

You're solar panels are fine, but you need to add the cost of what you're losing on the tariff by not selling the excess back. It's not free.


I don't get this why you've bought it on 8K miles. You've a daily commute of 60 miles which is what I do, if I don't go to clients or sites. Call it 250 working days a year, less 30 days if you've generous holidays and that's 220 days @ 60 miles is 13200 miles.
So you're nowhere near capable of doing your annual mileage on your PCP of 8K miles, roughly half the mileage if you add in some private running around in the year.

So you either take the hit and pay the additional mileage, or use another car, but your sums don't add up.

 

[wyx087]

I don't get this why you've bought it on 8K miles. You've a daily commute of 60 miles which is what I do, if I don't go to clients or sites. Call it 250 working days a year, less 30 days if you've generous holidays and that's 220 days @ 60 miles is 13200 miles.
So you're nowhere near capable of doing your annual mileage on your PCP of 8K miles, roughly half the mileage if you add in some private running around in the year.

This is wife's car (bright red paint). I only get to drive it when she doesn't need it. Her mileage is less than 3000 miles annual 100% local trips where the 80% charge setting (it's called long life mode) is more than sufficient for her use. So I'll fill up rest of the mileage by using it to commute cheaply. I've already put 4500 miles on it so far in 5 months, as my wife is currently on maternity leave. Yes, I've got my own diesel for my mostly motorway commute and for family road trips.

My Leaf actually had a sticker price of £11k. I used Nissan's switch scheme to trade in the old diesel. Negotiated another £600 off to effectively get free finance. The grand total of £9100 is exactly that, including my old car's trade-in value of £1000 because it was my asset. Some people calculate without trade-in, then it would have been £8100.
Switch scheme is still going now: https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/offers/the_switch_scheme.html Really good value, most other manufacturers only do new cars, which makes the scheme pointless for most old car drivers.

I look at it this way: Either way, we'll need to spend £5000+ on a new secondary car with the baby's arrival the old diesel only had 2 doors. Wife will only drive automatic, and the only bulletproof auto for town driving I can find is a Toyota Yaris/Auris hybrid, which costs around £9000. Same price I can get a Leaf, I get to save money on some of my commute and it works really well for my wife when she need the car. She loves her "big red" because of preheating and driving it is just so effortless.

Export tariff is insignificant compared to generation tariff, it's only 4p per kWh.
(Currently, solar panel's export amount are actually set at 50%, doesn't matter if you use it or not.)



Did I mention almost no maintenance needed on the Leaf? minor service is only check-ups, major service only adds brake fluid change, tyre rotation and cabin air filter change. At the end of 3 years we'll decide whether to keep it or hand it back for a different EV, keeping it means we'll use the 2 free servicing and then DIY from 3rd onwards. So £40 brake fluid at a garage and easily DIY the other 2, Zero mess, super easy, super cheap!

 

[Byker28i]

Ah ok, you made it sound like you'd bought it for commuting, which is where I tried to make it work but just couldn't for the range and mileage I travel. So actually you bought it for your wife who does small, local journeys, which is where an EV is good for currently and you're using it for occasional commutes.

I agree it works for those journeys, although we had an issue with the leaf as the dog wouldn't fit in the boot. EV isn't yet evolved enough to be a full replacement for petrol/diesel cars

 

[StewartR]

Export tariff is insignificant compared to generation tariff, it's only 4p per kWh. (Currently, solar panel's export amount are actually set at 50%, doesn't matter if you use it or not.)

5.03p/kWh currently for me. The export ratio can be metered via a smart meter, but if it isn't metered then the default assumption is 50%. We export 76% so clearly it makes sense for us for the export to be metered. If you're regularly using solar to charge your car, then it probably makes sense for your export to be unmetered.

 

[jamesev]

5.03p/kWh currently for me. The export ratio can be metered via a smart meter, but if it isn't metered then the default assumption is 50%. We export 76% so clearly it makes sense for us for the export to be metered. If you're regularly using solar to charge your car, then it probably makes sense for your export to be unmetered.

It will be about 5 years until the range and initial cost cross over happens

 

[Byker28i]

What really needs to happen is for more of the major manufacturers to get into the market. Ford are ramping p a plant int e US, Jaguar are starting to produce models, but you've either high end models with the range etc, or low end, low cost models only good for small local journeys.

So at the moment we're stuck with petrol or diesel, or hybrid

 

[ian-83]

I find it interesting what manufacturers are making regards to EV cars, I work for VW and am getting heavily involved in training to be able to work on the electric cars be it hybrids or full electric cars. I have been told by different instructors on training course that VW diesel development is almost as far as it can go. And with the recent "issues" in the press there scaling back.

As for overall carbon footprint of EV v Petrol/Diesel. What factors are taken into account? I guess production of the car and then fuelling the car? Be it producing electricity to charge an EV or the electricity used to refine crude oil to produce petrol/diesel. And then also any service items which add to the carbon footprint such as oil for services?

 

[wyx087]

EV isn't yet evolved enough to be a full replacement for petrol/diesel cars

I agree, and I'd even go as far to say EV won't be able to fully replace a good diesel for long range driving for a long time. The only viable long distance EV for next 10 years is still a Tesla, doesn't matter what battery size Nissan/Jaguar/VW/etc fit into their latest car, a long journey is heavily dependent on the (currently totally unreliable) rapid charging network.

Problem is, PHEV isn't the answer. PHEV are essentially traditional hybrid cars with a bigger battery. It's compromised as ICE car because of the added weight, worse fuel economy, robbed boot space. It's compromised as an EV because of the added weight and laughable EV range. It also creates problem where uninformed driver see a plug that fits (known as Type 2 for 43kW AC charging) and park their PHEV on a rapid charging spot, hogging the 50kW capable rapid charger for hours and only charging at 3kW. (Rapid charger are designed to charge battery EV to 80% within 40min). PHEV are made to be charged at 7kW chargers. But UK 7kW "fast" chargers don't have cable attached, I can't imagine PHEV drivers struggle with thick unwieldy charging cables for 10 extra miles.
PHEV are cars created by marketing department to sell a tick in the box for cheap BIK tax rates. After a few years, major manufacturers can then say people isn't interested in electrification and go back to selling profitable oil burners.

Short of buying a Tesla, the only real long distance EV is a REx, range extended EV. This combines good EV range with a tiny light-weight generator, enable long distance EV travel by providing a backup plan. Unfortunately this means the car needs to be designed as an EV from ground up, so only car on the market is BMW i3 REx and Vauxhall Ampera.

I personally won't buy any EV that started life as an ICE car (eg. e-Golf). The packaging of two powertrains are completely different. Even my Leaf has disappointing compromises due to produced on the same production line as Juke: Where is my front boot? I'd rather buy from likes of Tesla because they are not tied down to their ICE heritage.
The Hyundai Ioniq battery EV is excellent though, has good motorway aero (thus lower motorway consumption, more range when driving long distances) and is future proof with 100kW CCS charging capability. I'd even go as far to say this the second hand car to buy for occasional long distance travel, this is certainly way better than the new 2018 Leaf.

 

[nilagin]

The only viable long distance EV for next 10 years is still a Tesla,
.

The range on a Tesla is 310 miles, other manufacturers expect to be there at a minimum within the next couple of years, so unless Tesla have progressed onto 400+ miles, I don't see them being the only option.

Best option for recharging is having a small simple engine to act as a generator as and when needed.

 

[wyx087]

The range on a Tesla is 310 miles, other manufacturers expect to be there at a minimum within the next couple of years, so unless Tesla have progressed onto 400+ miles, I don't see them being the only option.

Quoted range and battery size isn't everything:
The 28kWh Ioniq did same journey as 40kWh 2018 Leaf, But the Ioniq with less quoted range completed the journey faster

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj3MsS9M3dE


I also don't think there's any reason for 300+ miles range. Current battery tech means the large battery is too heavy for an efficient car. You can refuel it at home, always start a journey with full charge, unlike ICE cars having to detour to a petrol station every other week. We already accept 400 miles ICE cars, 300 miles EV are actually easier to live with on a daily basis. People need to think of EV differently to ICE cars, your refuelling happens at home, most days you don't even have to think about range!
My wife is now used to get home and plug in, only takes 5s. She no longer asks whether her car has enough fuel for next week, I no longer have to assure her 1/4 tank is enough for next week. Because she knows she always start the day with enough range for 3+ of her daily trips.

I think future EV need to be measured using a "time to complete 1000 miles" metric. Simple metric such as battery size and range are completely useless for long distance driving. Charging speed, aero efficiency and heater efficiency are also very important. The 2018 Leaf lost because it can't recharge fast enough and it has horrible high speed drag. 2018 Leaf is just a bigger battery version of the original 2011 24kWh Leaf. (It's almost like the marketing department got to lead the designing of 40kWh Leaf 2.....)

Tesla has their supercharger network. This is the biggest asset most car buyers don't realise. The ability to see charging space availability in the entertainment system is so important. The ability to plug in and charge is so valuable. I've driven my Leaf 300 miles in one weekend to experience the charging infrastructure. It's almost non-existence, 1 or 2 rapid chargers at motorway service stations whereas Tesla has 8 or 12 nearby. You also need different membership/apps for each company. Imagine you have to be a Tesco clubcard member to refuel your car at Tesco, BP need you to download their app to start fuelling and Shell use a different app. Then Asda give you cheaper fuel, but you have to pay £8 per month. All this isn't set to change for the next few years.

 

[nilagin]

People need to think of EV differently to ICE cars, your refuelling happens at home, most days you don't even have to think about range!
My wife is now used to get home and plug in, only takes 5s.

That is all fine and dandy if you have provision to charge at home. A lot of people don't. I certainly don't, I don't have a drive, if I am lucky, I get to park my car across the road, if I am unlucky it is down the road somewhere. If I am really unlucky, which happens on occasion on getting home from a late shift, I have to park in another road entirely.
Unless someone lives somewhere very remote and has very few petrol stations, filling the tank up isn't much of an inconvenience.

 

[Byker28i]

The BMW i3 with range extender is still poor. We have two clients drive from London to the data center, about 100 miles, and charge all day when they get here. The range extender doesn't add lots, the second hand ones available tend to be the 22kw models, not the newer 33kw models.
2 gallon fuel tank on the range extender, 100 miles on battery, 160 miles with the range extender in real use by these two clients, and they are expensive.

 

[wyx087]

On-street lamp post charging: https://www.zap-map.com/kensington-and-chelsea-announce-more-lamppost-ev-charge-points-due/

Filling up petrol tank takes ~10min depend on the queue at petrol station and the traffic near it. In my use-case, I need to visit petrol station every 8 working days. Plugging in and unplug takes 10s each day. Overall it saves time and energy for me to simply plug-in every day.
It's like phones, people used to turn up their nose at my first-gen iPhone that must be re-charged everyday. Now everyone is doing the same. Similar to smart phones, EV have so many ownership benefits such as leaving with a full charge, less maintenance required, cheaper to drive and better driving experience.

100 miles in one sitting is not ideal use-case for current EV's. Due to current lacking infrastructure, it's best to stay within range of the battery (eg. 30 miles each way for my Leaf)

 

[ianp5a]

It's like phones, people used to turn up their nose at my first-gen iPhone that must be re-charged everyday. Now everyone is doing the same. Similar to smart phones, EV have so many ownership benefits such as leaving with a full charge, less maintenance required, cheaper to drive and better driving experience.

Yes. It was noticed that acceptance of reduced battery life in smartphones has had a positive influence on people's view of electric vehicles.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Yes. It was noticed that acceptance of reduced battery life in smartphones has had a positive influence on people's view of electric vehicles.

Which is interesting. TBH I'd be really hacked off if my phone needed charging daily (generally does 3-5 days) unless I could charge it wirelessly, and charging a phone is considerably less hassle than charging a car (bet it does NOT take 5sec to plug in either unless you're frantic). Is it better to spend 5-6min in a petrol station (pay at pump, no queues) or 5-6 min farting around with cables and plugs over the same period - there's probably little to chose and plugging in would become a part of the vehicle operation discipline, although it *sounds* really irritating to me as a non-owner.

 

[Mr Bump]

Seeing a few Leafs around my part of Yorkshire nowadays, amazing looking things and so nice and quiet.
such a great "sounding future" electric.

 

[Byker28i]

I also don't think there's any reason for 300+ miles range.

100 miles in one sitting is not ideal use-case for current EV's. Due to current lacking infrastructure, it's best to stay within range of the battery (eg. 30 miles each way for my Leaf)

You need to make your mind up.
If you want EV cars to be mainstream. They aren't there yet for most people, only those who do short, local journeys, who never want to go far,have a driveway or charging point available.

 

[Mr Bump]

I keep hearing all this twaddle about how many miles the average person commutes in a day?
but how much is it realy?

 

[PaulF]

I keep hearing all this twaddle about how many miles the average person commutes in a day?
but how much is it realy?

Speaking personally, minimum 70 miles per day, 5 days a week. I also often need to travel to other sites as part of my job so can be up to 200 plus easily.

Yes, EV cars work for 'some' people but not for 'most' people at the moment. For those that they do work for, great, go for it if the numbers (in terms of cost) stack up but please don't let yourselves become like some preaching vegetarians condemning anyone who they don't work for. The only sensible choice for me at the moment is a diesel.

 

[Mr Bump]

Speaking personally, minimum 70 miles per day, 5 days a week. I also often need to travel to other sites as part of my job so can be up to 200 plus easily.

Yes, EV cars work for 'some' people but not for 'most' people at the moment. For those that they do work for, great, go for it if the numbers (in terms of cost) stack up but please don't let yourselves become like some preaching vegetarians condemning anyone who they don't work for. The only sensible choice for me at the moment is a diesel.

But you are dead wrong the numbers below show the ral truth over 90% of people do less than 100 miles a day and a whopping 60% do less than 33 according to data

1. 33 miles or less 59.4%
   
2. 30-40 miles 13.0%
3. 0-60 miles 7.2%
   
4. 60-80 miles 5.1%
   
5. 80-100 miles 6.5%

 

[wyx087]

You need to make your mind up.
If you want EV cars to be mainstream. They aren't there yet for most people, only those who do short, local journeys, who never want to go far,have a driveway or charging point available.

For EV to be mainstream, there need to be much more reliable 50+KW rapid charger than current petrol pumps. Otherwise EV are tied to your only reliable charge point: home.

Battery range is different, and I think 200-300 is enough, as long as you can get a charge at every stop. (This is where Tesla's infastructure comes in)



Yes, it really only takes 5s to plug in or unplug: 1. grab the cable from wall holster. 2. plug in. Unplug in reverse. It does require some planning on location of the charger so it will work this quickly. But definitely go for a tethered cable.

FYI, I'm the most meat loving person you can probably meet And never once did I say EV will work for everyone. But as a second car on the driveway, you'd have to be both driving serious miles to dismiss a cheap EV such as the Leaf without working out the numbers.

 

[ianp5a]

Which is interesting. TBH I'd be really hacked off if my phone needed charging daily (generally does 3-5 days) unless I could charge it wirelessly, and charging a phone is considerably less hassle than charging a car (bet it does NOT take 5sec to plug in either unless you're frantic). Is it better to spend 5-6min in a petrol station (pay at pump, no queues) or 5-6 min farting around with cables and plugs over the same period - there's probably little to chose and plugging in would become a part of the vehicle operation discipline, although it *sounds* really irritating to me as a non-owner.

Despite your use of the terms "hacked off" and "farting around", you can probably see the undeniable mass "acceptance" of daily phone charging.
This is how you can tell which way things will go, rather than looking at one individuals preference. Yes they might be a load of sheep. And yes they might have a different use case than you. But I expect you could imagine some step change in convenience, that would trigger even wider acceptance.

 

[Cobra]

But you are dead wrong the numbers below show the ral truth over 90% of people do less than 100 miles a day and a whopping 60% do less than 33 according to data

Figures and data ... ah yes good for the soul...
I would fall into the category of 33 miles or less / day.. averaged over a year.
but, I drive 250 + miles a day, to and from work in my diesel van. which in reality is about 60,000 / year.

I rarely drive my car, but when I do, its normally a much longer trip than a battery car would "do".

 

[Byker28i]

FYI, I'm the most meat loving person you can probably meet And never once did I say EV will work for everyone. But as a second car on the driveway, you'd have to be both driving serious miles to dismiss a cheap EV such as the Leaf without working out the numbers.

Or bootsize - I couldn't get the dog in the boot of the leaf we hired... Not ever car has a one person driver, there are other requirements

See boot:
https://www.whatcar.com/nissan/leaf/hatchback/review/space-practicality/

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

But you are dead wrong the numbers below show the ral truth over 90% of people do less than 100 miles a day and a whopping 60% do less than 33 according to data

1. 33 miles or less 59.4%
   
2. 30-40 miles 13.0%
3. 0-60 miles 7.2%
   
4. 60-80 miles 5.1%
   
5. 80-100 miles 6.5%

I don't use my car through the week. But once a month I drive approx 260 miles, so an EV wouldn't be any good. Well, not one that I could afford.

 

[srichards]

On one of the forums I go on there is a person on there that has a 300 mile a day round trip commute. They have a new Renault Zoe. I think that proves it can be done with an EV. I personally think they're idiotic for living that far from where they work but they still manage it in a cheap french car.

 

[Byker28i]

I keep hearing all this twaddle about how many miles the average person commutes in a day?
but how much is it realy?

Speaking personally, minimum 70 miles per day, 5 days a week. I also often need to travel to other sites as part of my job so can be up to 200 plus easily.

Yes, EV cars work for 'some' people but not for 'most' people at the moment. For those that they do work for, great, go for it if the numbers (in terms of cost) stack up but please don't let yourselves become like some preaching vegetarians condemning anyone who they don't work for. The only sensible choice for me at the moment is a diesel.

56 mile commute to the office, or 72 mile to another site I regularly go to, with 30+ miles of that is motorway . For the last 2.5 years I've been working on different projects in the south west, Taunton, Exeter, Bridgewater etc, a 250 mile commute when I go to the client site (too frequently). If it's Exeter then it's a 20min queue plus at that end, can have a 10 min queue this end before I can get on the M4/M5, then you've M4/M5 accidents, hold ups.

 

[Mr Bump]

56 mile commute to the office, or 72 mile to another site I regularly go to, with 30+ miles of that is motorway . For the last 2.5 years I've been working on different projects in the south west, Taunton, Exeter, Bridgewater etc, a 250 mile commute when I go to the client site (too frequently). If it's Exeter then it's a 20min queue plus at that end, can have a 10 min queue this end before I can get on the M4/M5, then you've M4/M5 accidents, hold ups.

And yet you are still using the words the wrong way round.

EV will work for MOST not the FEW which you are though, you have made that very clear and I salute you for it, but you are the minority.

 

[Byker28i]

On one of the forums I go on there is a person on there that has a 300 mile a day round trip commute. They have a new Renault Zoe. I think that proves it can be done with an EV. I personally think they're idiotic for living that far from where they work but they still manage it in a cheap french car.

How? Just how? He's telling porkies. The Zoe has a 22Kw battery, max range is 130 miles in real use in the summer, which drops to around 100 in Winter, the manufacturer claim 160 miles of perfect driving in perfect conditions.

We have two clients commute regularly (one/twice a week) 100-120 miles from London in a BMW i3 with Range extender and they say thats the most they ever want to go, and with traffic hold ups around Reading roadworks, they have had to nip into services for a top up of fuel & power

 

[Mr Bump]

I don't use my car through the week. But once a month I drive approx 260 miles, so an EV wouldn't be any good. Well, not one that I could afford.

Nor do I but in all seriousness you could rent a car for 1 day a month it would work out cheaper.

 

[Nod]

Park and ride in Exeter? Apparently works very well (according to friends who come in from the M5 and A38 sides of the city.)

 

[Byker28i]

And yet you are still using the words the wrong way round.

EV will work for MOST not the FEW which you are though, you have made that very clear and I salute you for it, but you are the minority.

The comparable cost of our estate car is a small EV like the Zoe or the Leaf.
It hasn't the boot space I need for the dog, certainly not for trips/business kit. My wife does less mileage but does travel all over Wiltshire/oxfordshire. Range/size is important and to get that EV cars are just too expensive for me.

I can see they'd work for those with a requirement for a second car, minimal mileage, but then the cost comes in. A leaf is £21k for the basic, up to £27.5K. A Vauxhall corsa is £10K basic to £15K

 

[Byker28i]

Tesla model 3 when it comes out, depending on cost, will be interesting to me. Good size car, huge boot, 220 miles or 310 mile range (claimed). At that point I could seriously consider an EV.

 

[ianp5a]

A leaf is £21k for the basic,

Yeah. They don't grow on trees you know.

 

[srichards]

How? Just how? He's telling porkies. The Zoe has a 22Kw battery, max range is 130 miles in real use in the summer, which drops to around 100 in Winter, the manufacturer claim 160 miles of perfect driving in perfect conditions.

We have two clients commute regularly (one/twice a week) 100-120 miles from London in a BMW i3 with Range extender and they say thats the most they ever want to go, and with traffic hold ups around Reading roadworks, they have had to nip into services for a top up of fuel & power

They're not. The zoe has a 41kwh battery and has done so for well over a year.

 

[Mr Bump]

They're not. The zoe has a 41kwh battery and has done so for well over a year.

New Z.E 40 Battery
The new Z.E. 40 battery was developed by Renault with a revolutionary technology which doubles the capacity of the lithium-ion battery, in exactly the same dimensions! 250 miles NEDC on one charge, with the same benefits as the 22kWh battery, such as simple recharging, no required maintenance and easy recycling at the end of its life.

 

[Mr Bump]

I actually just looked at the specs for that Zoe and Wow for £18k to buy it seems a lot of technology for your money.
They even install a charging point for free at your house

 

[Byker28i]

They're not. The zoe has a 41kwh battery and has done so for well over a year.

Ok the 41Kw battery has a real range of 190-200 miles and there's a waiting list for the 2018 model. So your example means the driver charges it after every 150mile journey reaqdy for the trip homs. Has around 25% in reserve, which is doable.

However - They've a mandatory battery hire. **Price excludes mandatory battery hire from £59 per month for the Z.E. 40 battery, based on 4,500 per annum, excess mileage will be charged at 8p/mile including VAT. You will not own the battery
So on his 300 mile daily commute, he's doing 66000 miles a year, so thats another £5k a year in battery rental alone which is 900 gallons of fuel so the cost is the same as a small petrol car with a reasonably economical engine.

 

[Byker28i]

I actually just looked at the specs for that Zoe and Wow for £18k to buy it seems a lot of technology for your money.
They even install a charging point for free at your house

Look at the battery prices - it's what put me right off the zoe

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Nor do I but in all seriousness you could rent a car for 1 day a month it would work out cheaper.

I need a car more often than that, but that's how often I make a long trip. Owning a not very expensive car that gets good mileage, is cheaper than renting one every weekend.