Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[ianp5a]

No it will require someone experieced and specificallyv trained to work on hybrids and ev's instead

Trained yes. But a remove and reinstall can be done by someone with with basic nuts and bolts experience. There is very little that needs checking. This is a world away from someone who knows how to set up an engine.

Even though they'll want to keep the price similar, this is in a different league. And they will start to hire different people.

 

[PaulF]

Upgrading a battery, or most electronic units, is a whole lot easier than replacing mechanical parts in an engine car. These can be designed to be swapped out, as you will want to keep pace with the changes as they come in. They will not need an experienced mechanic to do it either.

I've no doubt that the consumer versions of EV will be a lot simpler to work on, but, when a whole team of highly skilled engineers/mechanics take a step back from an F1 car because it's battery is charged I don't think the average person is going to be messing around with a massive battery.

On occasions I need to install or replace batteries on UPS's and power supplies on IBM SP frames which have large capacitors in them, I wouldn't advise anyone to do this without the relevant training.

On another safety related question, I'm sure they've been tested etc but as the Leaf has it's charge port at the front of the car, what happens in a front end collision if that port/wires are damaged exposed, is there not an electrocution or fire risk there? I am making the assumption that the battery is placed in such a way that it would be var near impossible to damage it no matter how hard the crash, the EV car that Richard Hammond rolled took six days to put the fire out! it kept reigniting itself because the batteries were damaged.

 

[Mr Bump]

No it will require someone experieced and specificallyv trained to work on hybrids and ev's instead

of course it will, I think the swapping things out kit car style is rubbish but companies will start up that specialise in zoe of leaf updates down the line.
It will be collected from your home and returned 14 days later with a new battery and maybe even a more efficient motor.

people who think in 5 years time all these leafs and zoes etc will be obsolete are deluding themselves they will be snapped up as school run local cars for what an average corsa costs now.

 

[ianp5a]

On another safety related question, I'm sure they've been tested etc but as the Leaf has it's charge port at the front of the car, what happens in a front end collision if that port/wires are damaged exposed, is there not an electrocution or fire risk there? I am making the assumption that the battery is placed in such a way that it would be var near impossible to damage it no matter how hard the crash, the EV car that Richard Hammond rolled took six days to put the fire out! it kept reigniting itself because the batteries were damaged.

They are designed to withstand the usual crash scenarios. Front, offset, side etc. As battery damage is a fire hazard, it has to be carefully protected at up to the usual speeds defined by the legal requirements. But at higher speeds, yes the battery could be damaged. Side impact is particularly tricky.

 

[Overexposed]

of course it will, I think the swapping things out kit car style is rubbish but companies will start up that specialise in zoe of leaf updates down the line.
It will be collected from your home and returned 14 days later with a new battery and maybe even a more efficient motor.

people who think in 5 years time all these leafs and zoes etc will be obsolete are deluding themselves they will be snapped up as school run local cars for what an average corsa costs now.

In 5 years time the batteries will not be working anywhere near their original capacities and you will not want to buy a 5 yr old leaf/zoe to change the battery at between £5-*£8k Current battery technology is not good enough

 

[nilagin]

They are designed to withstand the usual crash scenarios. Front, offset, side etc. As battery damage is a fire hazard, it has to be carefully protected at up to the usual speeds defined by the legal requirements. But at higher speeds, yes the battery could be damaged. Side impact is particularly tricky.

They had trouble putting the fire out on the car that Hammond crashed. Apparently it is now standard practice that if a battery gets damaged and causes a fire, a vehicle has to be quarantined for 48hrs to ensure the battery does not reignite.

 

[Mr Bump]

In 5 years time the batteries will not be working anywhere near their original capacities and you will not want to buy a 5 yr old leaf/zoe to change the battery at between £5-*£8k Current battery technology is not good enough

the key bit to re-read is IN FIVE YEARS TIME.

Batteries will plummet in price, they will do a swap out at Kwik-FIT EV.

 

[wyx087]

Got to disagree with you there as with the pace of battery technology the current vehicles will be totally out of date, there is also the issue of the cost of replacing batteries and no one will want the pitiful range these vehicles currently offer which will decrease as they get older.

I'd want one, I'd be okay with running my first gen Leaf to the ground, it will still function as a school run car if it had 1/5 of its original range!

In 5 years time the batteries will not be working anywhere near their original capacities and you will not want to buy a 5 yr old leaf/zoe to change the battery at between £5-*£8k Current battery technology is not good enough

FYI, my 3.3 year old Leaf has 95% of its original capacity left, read from battery management system directly using Leafspy Pro, a OBD2 port reader. I expect more than 90% at 5 years old, more than 80% capacity when the car is 10 years old, and still 100% of its original horsepower (unlike ICE engines).
Bravo for your powers of assumption though.

Now to making the numbers add up.
A Leaf costs around 22k for the lowest spec, an Astra (similar size) cost around 18k for the mid range 1.4 petrol. To compare the costs between the two, assume 50 miles per day for 5 days a week, the Leaf would be about £12.50 a week cheaper on 'fuel' assuming 5p per mile to charge (think someone mentioned earlier that's what it was costing).
With the 4k price difference it'd take about 6 years before the Astra is costing more to run on fuel costs alone. OK, there'd be a difference in service and VED costs but I'd guess that would be in the region of 1 service per year so minimal.

It costs around 3p per miles for the Leaf: 20kWh needed during winter for 60 miles commute. I pay 9p per kWh if charging overnight so £2 per trip during coldest days, less during summer. My commute costs are around £6 per day for 53mpg diesel or £2 a day for EV. £4 per day difference, over 220 working days is £800+ saving.
Servicing is cheaper on EV, also no £400 cambelt change needed.
Tyres likely to wear less because you are rewarded if driven smoothly by regenerative braking
Brake lasts a lot longer
More tech in the car than the Astra for the price difference
Accelerates in town driving quicker than the Astra 1.6l
Also no gear changes, not sure if you've added the £1000 often needed to upgrade to auto gearbox.
Less stress when driving in traffic because no engine vibration or noise

The only thing stopping me doing it now is money. Any electric car remotely desirable is way out of my price range, I still enjoy driving and don't want to give that up. Hopefully five years time they will be a bit more mainstream and there will be some more interesting but affordable options out there.

Test drive a Tesla. You'd be surprised at how well it handles. Most other EV are currently lacking in power, but still drives great. The Leaf handles brilliantly up to 50mph, after that it lacks the power. For a tall car, I feel it handles as well previous my Mercedes coupe. It's all about the centre of gravity.

 

[jamesev]

the key bit to re-read is IN FIVE YEARS TIME.

Batteries will plummet in price, they will do a swap out at Kwik-FIT EV.

Worth a watch

View: https://youtu.be/9k7k3Mzknm8

 

[ianp5a]

Leaf batteries have been surprisingly good after 5 years. However, new technology will make them look dated. and people will want the upgrade.

the key bit to re-read is IN FIVE YEARS TIME.
Batteries will plummet in price, they will do a swap out at Kwik-FIT EV.

The manufacturers will be naturally looking to make money on these services. But other manufacturers will want to offer better value. On top of that, the classic car manufacturers will be sharing the market with all the new upstarts with no ICE history, like the new Chinese companies, Tesla etc, and many others, market forces will keep that in check.

 

[Byker28i]

Trained yes. But a remove and reinstall can be done by someone with with basic nuts and bolts experience. There is very little that needs checking. This is a world away from someone who knows how to set up an engine.

Even though they'll want to keep the price similar, this is in a different league. And they will start to hire different people.

Have you seen F1 Teams and the safety measures they go through. The ampage etc is huge so would need special training

 

[nilagin]

I'd want one, I'd be okay with running my first gen Leaf to the ground, it will still function as a school run car if it had 1/5 of its original range!


FYI, my 3.3 year old Leaf has 95% of its original capacity left, read from battery management system directly using Leafspy Pro, a OBD2 port reader. I expect more than 90% at 5 years old, more than 80% capacity when the car is 10 years old, and still 100% of its original horsepower (unlike ICE engines).
Bravo for your powers of assumption though.

If serviced properly an engine shouldn't lose anywhere near 20% of It's original power over a 10yr period. Engine construction and lubricants have moved on along way since engines being worn out at 100k miles.

 

[Byker28i]

the key bit to re-read is IN FIVE YEARS TIME.

Batteries will plummet in price, they will do a swap out at Kwik-FIT EV.

Yeah, maybe not...

FYI, my 3.3 year old Leaf has 95% of its original capacity left, read from battery management system directly using Leafspy Pro, a OBD2 port reader. I expect more than 90% at 5 years old, more than 80% capacity when the car is 10 years old, and still 100% of its original horsepower (unlike ICE engines).

Surely that depends on your usage/charging and when you do the reading. It's not unknown for cars to show 100% full then drop more than expected after a few minutes of usage.
How many miles have you on the car? Studies on usage have shown you lose about a bar on the battery every 12K miles after the first 16K miles. As you've 8K miles a year thats 40K miles so I'd expect your battery to be 75-80% after 5 years use.
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/nissan-leaf-battery-capacity-range

My 20 year old car allegedly left the factory with 350bhp but always measured 343-346bhp, until I had some work done, where it was 380bhp Cars don't lose a huge amount of power over years now.

 

[Byker28i]

Test drive a Tesla. You'd be surprised at how well it handles. Most other EV are currently lacking in power, but still drives great. The Leaf handles brilliantly up to 50mph, after that it lacks the power. For a tall car, I feel it handles as well previous my Mercedes coupe. It's all about the centre of gravity.

I've driven:
Nissan Leaf over a weeks hire. 0-30 or 0-40 was ok, but after that it slowed down. Joining the motorway at 70-75 was ok but it was happier cruising at 65-70 and you needed that speed for best battery. Top speed was about 85 but it was eating battery. If I played traffic light grand prix at either ends of the journey it ate the battery. Ok to do if it was getting charged after and was quite fun to leave people standing for the first few yards.

Renault Zoe 45 min test drive. Felt slow, 0-60 felt like an age but nippy in town traffic speeds, struggled to get above 80mph with two people in, or I ran out of dual carriageway
BMW i3 - small, nippy, nice feel to it, but so pricy for what it was.

Handling on both was ok but pushed in trying to carry speed they understeered more than I expected, so you just went slower. Eco tyres on these?

When I was thinking about trading in the TVR and putting in cash
BMW i8 - two year old model, 20K miles, Hybrid. Very, very nice, felt sporty, good handling but so pricey, as was
Tesla S 70D - 2016 - just different. I thought well laid out, brilliant spec, good size.

I just couldn't put another £20k into it right now.

The Leaf just became transport, there was no joy after the first couple of days as I was just finding I was constantly watching battery info and I think thats my issue with EV at the moment. I've got over 600 mile range on a run in the Mazda 6 diesel sitting at 80mph with a good acceleration throughout the range.

Small local journeys I can see an EV would work as a second car.

 

[Overexposed]

I'd want one, I'd be okay with running my first gen Leaf to the ground, it will still function as a school run car if it had 1/5 of its original range!


FYI, my 3.3 year old Leaf has 95% of its original capacity left, read from battery management system directly using Leafspy Pro, a OBD2 port reader. I expect more than 90% at 5 years old, more than 80% capacity when the car is 10 years old, and still 100% of its original horsepower (unlike ICE engines).
Bravo for your powers of assumption though.

I admire your optimism, but id love to see some real data, not just what you expect. My experience of higher power rechargeable batteries is woeful when they have some use on them , they also tend to die very quickly! Also when they are subjected to cold temperatures capacity just vanishes.



Test drive a Tesla. You'd be surprised at how well it handles. Most other EV are currently lacking in power, but still drives great. The Leaf handles brilliantly up to 50mph, after that it lacks the power. For a tall car, I feel it handles as well previous my Mercedes coupe. It's all about the centre of gravity.

I admire your optimism, but id love to see some real data, not just what you expect. My experience of higher power rechargeable batteries is woeful when they have some use on them , they also tend to die very quickly! Also when they are subjected to cold temperatures capacity just vanishes.

You are talking about a £70k+ car with a Tesla and you can buy a whole lot of power and performance for £70k. If im spending £70k it wont be on a Tesla or indeed any EV!

 

[Nod]

The Leaf just became transport,

Cars are just transport anyway. Other than track days, how often can you use even a quarter of the TVR's capabilities?

Roll on, dry roads!

 

[Byker28i]

Cars are just transport anyway. Other than track days, how often can you use even a quarter of the TVR's capabilities?

Roll on, dry roads!

None at the moment, the engines being rebuilt
Cars aren't just transport, they can be very emotive. Even those that say they aren't still pick a colour

 

[Nod]

I didn't have much choice in colour - the only one they had in with the toys I wanted was Vapour Grey - good job I liked it! It's still just transport - very comfortable transport but still just transport.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Cars are just transport anyway. Other than track days, how often can you use even a quarter of the TVR's capabilities?

For anything with a sensible amount of power, the answer is "slip roads joining a motorway is pretty much it" but even then the legal limit arrives very fast. On my car (not a TVR) that's just before the 7300 rev limiter in second. At least it sounds nice as the engine winds up in second gear while it gets there though

 

[ancient_mariner]

Cars aren't just transport, they can be very emotive. Even those that say they aren't still pick a colour

Indeed - cars can be fun or involving to drive, or they can be dull and miserable, and it's not just about power (though that is nice too). I'd rather drive a Mini than a Micra, and it's not just about the looks.

 

[decigallen]

Drove my friend's dad's Tesla and was impressed, but more with the tech than the handling. I imagine that Tesla will always be relatively niche in Europe. As soon as BMW and VAG put out their EVs it will be harder to put forward a case for buying a Tesla. By the time they have the Model 3 in Europe, VW will have their ID range ready to go. There are any number of VW garages in my city. There's no Tesla dealer/garage within 100miles (and Brexit could make cross-border purchases/repairs difficult).

At the upper end, by the end of 2019 we'll have the Jaguar I-Pace and XJ, Aud E-tron quattro, A9 and sportback. Tesla Roadster will be going up against the Porsche Mission E - anyone reckon the Tesla will be the better drive? Merc, BMW, Volvo and Aston Martin all have incoming EVs as well as most of the Korean and Japanese brands.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

I've driven:
Nissan Leaf over a weeks hire. 0-30 or 0-40 was ok, but after that it slowed down. Joining the motorway at 70-75 was ok but it was happier cruising at 65-70 and you needed that speed for best battery. Top speed was about 85 but it was eating battery. If I played traffic light grand prix at either ends of the journey it ate the battery. Ok to do if it was getting charged after and was quite fun to leave people standing for the first few yards.

Renault Zoe 45 min test drive. Felt slow, 0-60 felt like an age but nippy in town traffic speeds, struggled to get above 80mph with two people in, or I ran out of dual carriageway
BMW i3 - small, nippy, nice feel to it, but so pricy for what it was.

Handling on both was ok but pushed in trying to carry speed they understeered more than I expected, so you just went slower. Eco tyres on these?

When I was thinking about trading in the TVR and putting in cash
BMW i8 - two year old model, 20K miles, Hybrid. Very, very nice, felt sporty, good handling but so pricey, as was
Tesla S 70D - 2016 - just different. I thought well laid out, brilliant spec, good size.

I just couldn't put another £20k into it right now.

The Leaf just became transport, there was no joy after the first couple of days as I was just finding I was constantly watching battery info and I think thats my issue with EV at the moment. I've got over 600 mile range on a run in the Mazda 6 diesel sitting at 80mph with a good acceleration throughout the range.

Small local journeys I can see an EV would work as a second car.

Of that lot BMW i8 will hold value and may even appreciate at some point the others probably have no chance. It is only shame it has no sporting pedigree.

 

[ianp5a]

Drove my friend's dad's Tesla and was impressed, but more with the tech than the handling. I imagine that Tesla will always be relatively niche in Europe. As soon as BMW and VAG put out their EVs it will be harder to put forward a case for buying a Tesla. By the time they have the Model 3 in Europe, VW will have their ID range ready to go. There are any number of VW garages in my city. There's no Tesla dealer/garage within 100miles (and Brexit could make cross-border purchases/repairs difficult).

At the upper end, by the end of 2019 we'll have the Jaguar I-Pace and XJ, Aud E-tron quattro, A9 and sportback. Tesla Roadster will be going up against the Porsche Mission E - anyone reckon the Tesla will be the better drive? Merc, BMW, Volvo and Aston Martin all have incoming EVs as well as most of the Korean and Japanese brands.

Don't miss out the many 'new' brands taking a slice of the pie away from the classic manufacturers. Many Chinese brands too. No need to have years of engine history to complete any more.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Don't miss out the many 'new' brands taking a slice of the pie away from the classic manufacturers. Many Chinese brands too. No need to have years of engine history to complete any more.

A car is so much more than engine.

Korean manufacturers took over a decade to approach the level of quality and feel of german counterparts. You have the interiors, bodywork, design, suspension, handling, infotainment, reliability issues, SAFETY and more to contend with. Safety is one criteria where you really don't want to crash in any chi-com branded car. I am sure they will get better as they mainly acquire technology from companies like Volvo (Geely) and now 10% stake in Mercedes. Battery technology is the area where most innovation needs to be done, and make no mistake they will buy or leak from factories in China making Jaguars and Mercs... In china there are hardly any safety laws so they don't really care if the car catches fire or else. You get the picture hopefully.

 

[ianp5a]

A car is so much more than engine.

Korean manufacturers took over a decade to approach the level of quality and feel of german counterparts. You have the interiors, bodywork, design, suspension, handling, infotainment, reliability issues, SAFETY and more to contend with. Safety is one criteria where you really don't want to crash in any chi-com branded car. I am sure they will get better as they mainly acquire technology from companies like Volvo (Geely) and now 10% stake in Mercedes. Battery technology is the area where most innovation needs to be done, and make no mistake they will buy or leak from factories in China making Jaguars and Mercs... In china there are hardly any safety laws so they don't really care if the car catches fire or else. You get the picture hopefully.

Yes I know. It's my field. Some Chinese manufacturers will be offering poor vehicles. Others have set up design centres next door to European ones to poach whole teams for their experience, and have been working hard on upping their game for many many years. They are all very determined and many have big money to invest. And the change to EVs is giving them a leg up.

Which is why it would be a mistake to ignore them. Especially at the low price end.

 

[nilagin]

Of that lot BMW i8 will hold value and may even appreciate at some point the others probably have no chance. It is only shame it has no sporting pedigree.

Sorry to burst your bubble but 3yr old examples are advertised at £30-40k below the original list price. Adding insult to injury that at one point dealers were selling cars at 50% over list price in 2014/15, some people may well have lost £80-90k in that 3-4yr period.

 

[jamesev]

Yes the current batch of EVs may be old tech very soon but they have paved the way for the infrastructure to be built to support EVs. There are more charging points at service stations at supermarkets and high streets.Other good signals have come from Government (French) saying no more sales of Petrol or Diesel engines from 2040. With a lifecycle in development of a new vehicle being about 5 years this means no new designs from about 2035. I suspect this may be even earlier as very few people will buy Petrol or Diesel cars from 2035 because they are unlikely to be able to resell them on after 2040.

 

[Byker28i]

Sorry to burst your bubble but 3yr old examples are advertised at £30-40k below the original list price. Adding insult to injury that at one point dealers were selling cars at 50% over list price in 2014/15, some people may well have lost £80-90k in that 3-4yr period.

Yup I was looking at a two year old BMW i8 and Teslas at around the £50K.

 

[nilagin]

Yes the current batch of EVs may be old tech very soon but they have paved the way for the infrastructure to be built to support EVs. There are more charging points at service stations at supermarkets and high streets.Other good signals have come from Government (French) saying no more sales of Petrol or Diesel engines from 2040. With a lifecycle in development of a new vehicle being about 5 years this means no new designs from about 2035. I suspect this may be even earlier as very few people will buy Petrol or Diesel cars from 2035 because they are unlikely to be able to resell them on after 2040.

Why wouldn't they be able to sell them on after 2040. It's only the sale of new ice cars they plan on stopping, not the actual fuel.

 

[ianp5a]

Yes the current batch of EVs may be old tech very soon but they have paved the way for the infrastructure to be built to support EVs. There are more charging points at service stations at supermarkets and high streets.Other good signals have come from Government (French) saying no more sales of Petrol or Diesel engines from 2040. With a lifecycle in development of a new vehicle being about 5 years this means no new designs from about 2035. I suspect this may be even earlier as very few people will buy Petrol or Diesel cars from 2035 because they are unlikely to be able to resell them on after 2040.

If you saw the analysis graph in the video posted above (Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel)
the situation will be massively different way before 2040. With the price tipping point is only a couple of years away.

Why wouldn't they be able to sell them on after 2040. It's only the sale of new ice cars they plan on stopping, not the actual fuel.

There will be too few petrol stations. Just specialist places selling to hobbyists.

See the original slideshow: https://www.slideshare.net/PodPoint

 

[jamesev]

Why wouldn't they be able to sell them on after 2040. It's only the sale of new ice cars they plan on stopping, not the actual fuel.

Who would buy a vehicle that is no longer made, the infrastructure to support it will begin to dwindle

 

[omens]

I've read bits of this thread. I agree that EV is the way forward. I just don't think we will own cars in any way, shape or form in the future.

With the likes of Google self driving cars, and PCP (where people don't own the cars unless balloon payment finalised), I reckon there will be a future where driverless taxis are the normal. It'll probably be subscription based along the lines of current internet streaming eg netflix.

I remember watching Jay Leno on some show once where he showed off his garage. It may have been a decade ago but his opinion was that people will own petrol-fuelled cars in the same way people now own horses. Horses used to be a main form of transport. Now people own horses for sports or for hobby. Cars will go the same way and it will probably happen in the next 20-30 years.

 

[wyx087]

Surely that depends on your usage/charging and when you do the reading. It's not unknown for cars to show 100% full then drop more than expected after a few minutes of usage.
How many miles have you on the car? Studies on usage have shown you lose about a bar on the battery every 12K miles after the first 16K miles. As you've 8K miles a year thats 40K miles so I'd expect your battery to be 75-80% after 5 years use.
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/nissan-leaf-battery-capacity-range

My 20 year old car allegedly left the factory with 350bhp but always measured 343-346bhp, until I had some work done, where it was 380bhp Cars don't lose a huge amount of power over years now.

My car has 22k on the clock, bought at 18k 3 years old in October. Battery condition went up from 94% on purchase to 95%, probably due to minor self adjustment and the increased number of cell balancing opportunities when I do my deep discharge daily commute.

The link you provided is fishy. Only sampled across 500 cars, 2011-2015-ish Leaf in America are known to have battery degradation in hot weather. 2013-2017 Sunderland built Leaf 24 and 30 are much more robust. This 2013 built Leaf with 100k miles on the clock in 2015 still has full battery bars: https://www.zap-map.com/electric-taxi-company-clocks-100000-miles-in-nissan-leaf/

I admire your optimism, but id love to see some real data, not just what you expect. My experience of higher power rechargeable batteries is woeful when they have some use on them , they also tend to die very quickly! Also when they are subjected to cold temperatures capacity just vanishes.

You are talking about a £70k+ car with a Tesla and you can buy a whole lot of power and performance for £70k. If im spending £70k it wont be on a Tesla or indeed any EV!

EV battery are hardly the same as high power rechargeable batteries. When you leave your EV plugged in, it doesn't trickle charge the car at 100% like your laptop/phone. My experience with high powered Li-Po drone batteries tells me they are excellent as long as not left sitting at extremes (0 or 100% charged), I've had my drone for 3 years now and still get the same amount of flight time as before.

The cold temperature issue is true with my Leaf, 20% reduction in range compared to 10% reduction in MPG for ICE cars. Not too dissimilar. Similarly, I had to queue 1 hour to get out of a town last Friday in the snow, nudging forward slowly, a total distance of 1.2 miles. My fuel economy was in single digits. But in an EV, I would have only used 3kWh to keep the heater on, zero power is wasted moving forward slowly.

If I were to be spend £50k+ on a car, it will definitely be a Tesla Model S, No question about it. The EV powertrain driving experience is just so much better than ICE powered cars. As mentioned previously, Tesla supercharger infrastructure provides long range travel so there's no longer any real advantage to ICE cars.

For anything with a sensible amount of power, the answer is "slip roads joining a motorway is pretty much it" but even then the legal limit arrives very fast. On my car (not a TVR) that's just before the 7300 rev limiter in second. At least it sounds nice as the engine winds up in second gear while it gets there though

Driving an EV lets you enjoy great acceleration from stand still up to 30 mph Higher power EV such as a Tesla gives you fantastic sense of power all the way to legal speed limits.

The sense of immediate power is very addictive. No turbo lag, no unpredictable kick-down power surge, no wait for slush-box to shift mid-roundabout. Just press the go-peddle and you always get exact amount of power you demand.

Cars aren't just transport, they can be very emotive. Even those that say they aren't still pick a colour

But the emotional attachment to ICE is going to go the same way as preferring to tend to a horse for your transport needs. The attachment to a brand that has "sporting pedigree" just seems plain stupid to me. If a new brand makes a superior product, then why dismiss it? I honestly don't see ANY reason to choose Jag I-Pace over a Tesla. The former doesn't have the charging infrastructure, no OTA updating firmware, and still sells their cars using slimy dealers.

 

[nilagin]

Who would buy a vehicle that is no longer made, the infrastructure to support it will begin to dwindle

People that buy second hand cars. Failing that there would have to be a very expensive scrappage scheme.

 

[Gaz J]

Read somewhere last night that the average CO2 emissions from cars has gone up for the first time since 2000. The motor industry are blaming it on the backlash against diesels. Green peace are blaming people buying SUVs and others are blaming the road tax policy of not keeping the low tax bands for the least polluting petrol and diesel cars which doesn't give drivers the incentive of buying them.

 

[jamesev]

People that buy second hand cars. Failing that there would have to be a very expensive scrappage scheme.

But people who buy second hand cars now know that every petrol station sells diesel, there are parts available for repairs etc.

Once they no longer make these cars the demand drops and this is followed by the infrastructure to support.

 

[Gaz J]

The idea that we will all be driving electric by 2040 is pie in the sky. There will still be hybrid vehicles being sold. This country would have to invest an enormous amount of money in an infrastructure to support electric and who's going to pay for it? In the town where I live there are 4 charging points of which two are being used at this time. They will be charging vehicles owned by the council. Whilst big towns and cities may be installing them at a brisker pace in rural communities it's a non starter.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Driving an EV lets you enjoy great acceleration from stand still up to 30 mph Higher power EV such as a Tesla gives you fantastic sense of power all the way to legal speed limits.

The sense of immediate power is very addictive. No turbo lag, no unpredictable kick-down power surge, no wait for slush-box to shift mid-roundabout. Just press the go-peddle and you always get exact amount of power you demand.

My internal combustion engine powered car suffers from none of those things, having a naturally aspirated engine with a manual transmission

I'm not arguing against electric power, and when I can 'refuel' an electric vehicle for 400 miles range in the same time as it takes me to put the 12 gallons of petrol in I would need to do that distance at 70mph on the motorway, I would seriously consider them. However, given that I've owned the same car for 14 years, the EV would need to be pretty inspiring to persuade me to replace it.

 

[jamesev]

The idea that we will all be driving electric by 2040 is pie in the sky. There will still be hybrid vehicles being sold. This country would have to invest an enormous amount of money in an infrastructure to support electric and who's going to pay for it? In the town where I live there are 4 charging points of which two are being used at this time. They will be charging vehicles owned by the council. Whilst big towns and cities may be installing them at a brisker pace in rural communities it's a non starter.

The same people who paid for the petrol and diesel infrastructure when ICE cars came about. If there are signals to the market that a technology will come then people will invest. The French have done it the UK have done it. Volvo and Ford are giving investment signals. If the analysts suggest that the consumption of diesel and petrol on forecourts will half / quarter by 2040 they will ramp down the investment in them.

 

[ianp5a]

I've read bits of this thread. I agree that EV is the way forward. I just don't think we will own cars in any way, shape or form in the future.

This is already a reality. Most of my friends don't own cars right now. Yes I'm lucky to live in a city with good public transport. And have apps to find the nearest car to rent-by-the-minute if I really need it. Including electric ones. The money saved in fuel, insurance, maintenance, storage/parking, the purchase/lease cost, and those furry dice you hang on the interior mirror, is more than enough to cover, public transport, taxis and picking up a car of my choice just when I need it. And for a few rounds at the Go-Kart track if I ever felt the need to go "brmm- brmm"!