Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[srichards]

Ok the 41Kw battery has a real range of 190-200 miles and there's a waiting list for the 2018 model. So your example means the driver charges it after every 150mile journey reaqdy for the trip homs. Has around 25% in reserve, which is doable.

However - They've a mandatory battery hire. **Price excludes mandatory battery hire from £59 per month for the Z.E. 40 battery, based on 4,500 per annum, excess mileage will be charged at 8p/mile including VAT. You will not own the battery
So on his 300 mile daily commute, he's doing 66000 miles a year, so thats another £5k a year in battery rental alone which is 900 gallons of fuel so the cost is the same as a small petrol car with a reasonably economical engine.

No it isn't. The unlimited annual mileage option is £110 a month which includes full breakdown cover with free car hire with fuel costs reimbursed.
.
The person actually bought the car outright anyway. It was a top spec car but as far as I remember they paid under £20k.

 

[nilagin]

I keep hearing all this twaddle about how many miles the average person commutes in a day?
but how much is it realy?

I only do around 16 miles a day, but on the occasions I go to Silverstone and go and take the detour to pick my sister up, even if I left home with a full charge I would have to recharge on the way and recharge again on the way home. In my previous car I could do it on one tank of fuel and have a few miles to spare before the refuel light came on, present car does slightly less to the gallon and has a smaller tank, but I would only need to stop once on the way home.

 

[PaulF]

But you are dead wrong the numbers below show the ral truth over 90% of people do less than 100 miles a day and a whopping 60% do less than 33 according to data

1. 33 miles or less 59.4%
   
2. 30-40 miles 13.0%
3. 0-60 miles 7.2%
   
4. 60-80 miles 5.1%
   
5. 80-100 miles 6.5%

Interesting statistics, where are they from?

The really interesting figures would need to include how many of those 90% have the capability to own/run an EV
How many have a suitable driveway, so remove anyone who lives in a terrace/town house, flat, apartment etc.
How many need to make use of a decent sized boot, or put another way how many would the affordable EV's be suitable for.
How many never take a longer journey, the average daily commute may not have taken into account the semi regular journeys for hobbies, visiting families etc etc.
What percentage are running less than 3 year old cars worth in the 20k range, i.e. how many would be in the position to purchase an EV in the first place

Now to making the numbers add up.
A Leaf costs around 22k for the lowest spec, an Astra (similar size) cost around 18k for the mid range 1.4 petrol. To compare the costs between the two, assume 50 miles per day for 5 days a week, the Leaf would be about £12.50 a week cheaper on 'fuel' assuming 5p per mile to charge (think someone mentioned earlier that's what it was costing).
With the 4k price difference it'd take about 6 years before the Astra is costing more to run on fuel costs alone. OK, there'd be a difference in service and VED costs but I'd guess that would be in the region of 1 service per year so minimal.

The closer you get to the range limit of the EV the sooner it'd be more cost effective though.

Once the technology in the Tesla is more refined and more widely available and therefore cheaper then they'd be more viable but at the moment I just can't see that they are overall suitable for most.

I'd be interested to know as a bit of a straw poll, how many on this forum actually drive an EV.

 

[nilagin]

I'd be interested to know as a bit of a straw poll, how many on this forum actually drive an EV.

Not many I am willing to bet. They only form a small proportion of cars on the road anyway. I only know of 2 friends or family, who drive an EV and I can go weeks, or even months without seeing one.
Personally I have no interest in driving an EV at the moment. That could change in the future though, when the electric Mustang comes out which should have power equivalent to the V8.

 

[jamesev]

Not many I am willing to bet. They only form a small proportion of cars on the road anyway. I only know of 2 friends or family, who drive an EV and I can go weeks, or even months without seeing one.
Personally I have no interest in driving an EV at the moment. That could change in the future though, when the electric Mustang comes out which should have power equivalent to the V8.

I suspect a poll done in 5 years time will see a significant rise when the cost and range economics start to cross over

 

[Byker28i]

No it isn't. The unlimited annual mileage option is £110 a month which includes full breakdown cover with free car hire with fuel costs reimbursed.
.
The person actually bought the car outright anyway. It was a top spec car but as far as I remember they paid under £20k.

It wasn't the top spec car, I spoke to Renault yesterday. To buy the Zoe outright, the ZOE i ‘full purchase’ start from £19,845 (OTR) after the Government Plug-in Car Grant, giving the buyer full ownership of the car and battery and no monthly battery lease payment. It's worth waiting as the new model launches later this month, however there's a waiting list so if you fancy one we can put your name down.

You get £4500 back from the government on a Zoe, last years models pricing, going back through my emails, which I looked at were:
80kW Dynamique Nav R110 40kWh 22kWCh 5dr Auto - £22,920
80kW Signature Nav R110 40kWh 22kWCh 5dr Auto - £25,170
65kW Signature Nav Q90 40kWh 43kWCh 5dr Auto - £25,920
80kW i Dynamique Nav R110 40kWh 22kWCh 5dr Auto - £28,520
65kW i Dynamique Nav Q90 40kWh 43kWCh 5dr Auto - £29,270
65kW i Signature Nav Q90 40kWh 43kWCh 5dr Auto - £31,520

If you go for the i models you own the battery rather than renting it, but you only get a 4 year warranty. So I suggest this person bought the Dynamic Nav with the lesser charger. It's the only way the price gets under £20K for the new car, but then you're renting the battery at £110 a month.

I'm all for EV cars in the right occasion, not only for the silly performance, but at least lets not get all evangelical about cost and speak about it rationally. The Zoe is tiny though

 

[Byker28i]

Interesting statistics, where are they from?

It's be interesting, I couldn't find those figures
Rac found over 61% of people get to work by car, rising to 75% in rural areas. There's limited charging in rural areas, some councils have a couple of points. There won't be more until teh cars pick up, yet its a limitation for b buying the cars...

I'd be interested to know as a bit of a straw poll, how many on this forum actually drive an EV.

One so far on this thread I think,

 

[jamesev]

It's be interesting, I couldn't find those figures
Rac found over 61% of people get to work by car, rising to 75% in rural areas. There's limited charging in rural areas, some councils have a couple of points. There won't be more until teh cars pick up, yet its a limitation for b buying the cars...

One so far on this thread I think,

I appear to have been misquoted

 

[srichards]

I have a current Carwow offer for one for under £20k for thr top model battery owned. Prices have gone up since the person I know bought and the UK allocation of those Zoes has all been sold anyway. There's a newer version out soon.

List prices are guff. Take out a PCP and renault give you a chunk off. My offers include about £6k from Renault.

 

[jamesev]

I have a current Carwow offer for one for under £20k for thr top model battery owned. Prices have gone up since the person I know bought and the UK allocation of those Zoes has all been sold anyway. There's a newer version out soon.

List prices are guff. Take out a PCP and renault give you a chunk off. My offers include about £6k from Renault.

But what are the PCP terms relating to mileage allowance and what is the overall cost once you add on the interest terms?

With Carwow its always best to get the ball rolling before mentioning how you will pay. Sometimes discounts are offered on the basis they think you are going to get a finance loan. I was offered £6k under list on carwow then they tried to retract when i pulled out the debit card.

 

[Byker28i]

I appear to have been misquoted

I was agreeing with you about wanting the source for those figures - sorry if it dodn't look like that

 

[srichards]

You take the PCP and then settle it in full then the mileage doesn't matter. Most new cars are bought with finance anyway so it's probable that a customer will take finance.

 

[Byker28i]

But what are the PCP terms relating to mileage allowance and what is the overall cost once you add on the interest terms?

With Carwow its always best to get the ball rolling before mentioning how you will pay. Sometimes discounts are offered on the basis they think you are going to get a finance loan. I was offered £6k under list on carwow then they tried to retract when i pulled out the debit card.

I looked at Carwow when getting figures, their discounts apply to their finance loans or pcp deals not out right buying.
The figures I was quoted were that from renault. There was a slight movement on price but not much because as they said, we would be getting £4500 off from the government.

 

[Byker28i]

You take the PCP and then settle it in full then the mileage doesn't matter. Most new cars are bought with finance anyway so it's probable that a customer will take finance.

I don't. I guess I'm unusual in that, but then I tend to buy a car and keep it for 10 years.

What are you looking at buying, which car/model?

 

[srichards]

It's be interesting, I couldn't find those figures
Rac found over 61% of people get to work by car, rising to 75% in rural areas. There's limited charging in rural areas, some councils have a couple of points. There won't be more until teh cars pick up, yet its a limitation for b buying the cars...

One so far on this thread I think,

Rural areas have electricity. Those living there are also much more likely to have a private drive so they can have a home charger so the car is fully charged every morning. The fact the public charging infrastructure is no good isn't so relevant. Lidl are chucking in rapid chargers in a lot of places, so are Polar and Instavolt. It won't be long before there is decent charging just about everywhere.

 

[Byker28i]

Rural areas have electricity. Those living there are also much more likely to have a private drive so they can have a home charger so the car is fully charged every morning. The fact the public charging infrastructure is no good isn't so relevant. Lidl are chucking in rapid chargers in a lot of places, so are Polar and Instavolt. It won't be long before there is decent charging just about everywhere.

lets be honest, it's mostly heavily populated areas at the moment.

What car are you looking at?

If we do get more EV on the road, then it'll push manufacturers to invest more, so we'll get more models, capabilities which will then make them more attractive.

 

[srichards]

I don't. I guess I'm unusual in that, but then I tend to buy a car and keep it for 10 years.

What are you looking at buying, which car/model?

I was looking at a battery owned zoe but decided I'd wait for the newer longer range Kia Soul or the Kia Niro. They both have 64kwh batteries and come with 7 year warranties. The Ioniq is also possible as it's so much more efficient.

I wouldn't buy an EV outright. The tech is changing too fast. Leasing is probably what I'd do for now until it settles down.

 

[Phil V]

I actually just looked at the specs for that Zoe and Wow for £18k to buy it seems a lot of technology for your money.
They even install a charging point for free at your house

My mate has one, it’s perfectly usable, better than many small cars I’ve used.

 

[jamesev]

I looked at Carwow when getting figures, their discounts apply to their finance loans or pcp deals not out right buying.
The figures I was quoted were that from renault. There was a slight movement on price but not much because as they said, we would be getting £4500 off from the government.

Interesting - when I went with Carwow the price quoted was £6k under list without any payment method defined. 5 dealers came back to me with 2 offering about the same £6K under list (they were part of the same group) and the others came back with about £1K-£2K under.

 

[bass_junkie83]

I reckon I will be driving fully electric in five years. My current car really only gets used at weekends, rarely more than 150 mile round trips. Once or twice a year we might do a camping trip further afield, but fortunately my wife is weird and likes service stations, we always end up stopping for a bite to eat to stopping to top up the charge would be no hardship in these rare occasions. I've got a drive and the mains power enters the house at the perfect location so fitting a charge point will be simple.

The only thing stopping me doing it now is money. Any electric car remotely desirable is way out of my price range, I still enjoy driving and don't want to give that up. Hopefully five years time they will be a bit more mainstream and there will be some more interesting but affordable options out there.

 

[Mr Bump]

The realy interesting thing that people don't seem to be getting though is how little their diesels are going to be worth in 5 years time.
A new diesel bought now may seem like a good deal as prices are being murdered, a guy I work for was offered a V W Golf GTD at over £7k off list price and turned it down.

EVs and hybrids will win the next 10 year gap while the next leap in tech takes place, the death of diesel will be a great celebration over that period.

 

[srichards]

New diesel sales have tanked. It also means if you want a second hand diesel in a few years you won't find one so prices may not fall as much as you think. But that does depend on what electric cars are available and what hybrids etc.

Honda are going to make their urban concept which is about the coolest looking EV I've seen.

 

[Byker28i]

The realy interesting thing that people don't seem to be getting though is how little their diesels are going to be worth in 5 years time.
.

Never worries me, I bought mine in 2014 tend to keep my cars 10 years of more so they aren't worth much anyway.
But then others are saying it's all PCP or leasing these days so they won't care about that either, it's just a monthly cost. 80% of all new car sales apparently.

10 years and I can see EV being a major player. Be interesting to see the % of sales next month. Diesel sales are certainly dropping, down 10%, petrol sales are up 14%, electric and hybrid are lumped together but are up 7%.

 

[Byker28i]

I was looking at a battery owned zoe but decided I'd wait for the newer longer range Kia Soul or the Kia Niro. They both have 64kwh batteries and come with 7 year warranties. The Ioniq is also possible as it's so much more efficient.

I wouldn't buy an EV outright. The tech is changing too fast. Leasing is probably what I'd do for now until it settles down.

Ioniq is certainly interesting as are the Kia's. There's some other technology coming along driven by Williams F1 as well.

 

[nilagin]

The realy interesting thing that people don't seem to be getting though is how little their diesels are going to be worth in 5 years time.
A new diesel bought now may seem like a good deal as prices are being murdered, a guy I work for was offered a V W Golf GTD at over £7k off list price and turned it down.

EVs and hybrids will win the next 10 year gap while the next leap in tech takes place, the death of diesel will be a great celebration over that period.

VW's are over priced compared to the competition anyway. They certainly never did themselves any favours with the emissions scandal.

People are just waking up to the fact that diesel cars are really only suitable for a certain usage and as a result sales have dropped.

 

[Mr Bump]

VW's are over priced compared to the competition anyway. They certainly never did themselves any favours with the emissions scandal.

People are just waking up to the fact that diesel cars are really only suitable for a certain usage and as a result sales have dropped.

I don't think that is strictly true, most people I know are acknowledging diesel has had its day and are also looking at future taxes for diesel cars which will increase.
Also people buy cars hoping when they come to sell or trade them in 3/5 years they will be worth something.

German diesels always had a high resale value but that will plummet over the next 5 years.
however a tasty hybrid may cost more but in 5 years I know which one I will want to own to sell or trade.

 

[jamesev]

VW's are over priced compared to the competition anyway. They certainly never did themselves any favours with the emissions scandal.

People are just waking up to the fact that diesel cars are really only suitable for a certain usage and as a result sales have dropped.

Have petrol's caught up on an efficiency basis with diesels now?

 

[nilagin]

New diesel sales have tanked.

Have they though? The biggest growth at the moment in the car industry in the UK is for SUV's and most of those are bought as diesel.

 

[Cobra]

Personally I have no interest in driving an EV at the moment. That could change in the future though, when the electric Mustang comes out which should have power equivalent to the V8.

And of course the "piped in" V8 burble is a must

 

[nilagin]

Have petrol's caught up on an efficiency basis with diesels now?

They aren't that far behind to be honest. It depends on the car and how it is used. There are plenty of very economical petrol engines cars out there.

 

[PaulF]

As the EV technology is moving forward at quite a pace now, wouldn't the value of the first, second or third gen also plummet (as a used vehicle) as the newer versions are predicted to be better. Similar to the last generation of phone cost drops once the new one is out. I know I wouldn't want to pay a significant amount for an EV with two year old tech, on the battery/motor side of things.

Probably better to wait until the technology has settled a little before taking the plunge, once range, chargers etc is in the right area.

 

[nilagin]

And of course the "piped in" V8 burble is a must

I prefer it when it roars.
Yesterday Ford announced that it's 50th anniversary Bullitt Mustang will be on sale in Europe as well as USA.

 

[Byker28i]

641bhp Alfa Giulia hybrid looks good

 

[Byker28i]

Rural areas have electricity.

Might be worth EV owners keeping an eye on this website, because if we get more storms with global warming knocking out power, such as: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5286171/Thousands-without-power-95mph-gales.html


ukpower.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/power-cut-list

 

[onomatopoeia]

The realy interesting thing that people don't seem to be getting though is how little their diesels are going to be worth in 5 years time.

Only matters if you're the sort of person that has to drive a new or nearly new (less than six years old) car though to show off to your mates in the office car park / gym / school gates / outside the post office when collecting the pension etc.

 

[Overexposed]

I don't think that is strictly true, most people I know are acknowledging diesel has had its day and are also looking at future taxes for diesel cars which will increase.
Also people buy cars hoping when they come to sell or trade them in 3/5 years they will be worth something.

German diesels always had a high resale value but that will plummet over the next 5 years.
however a tasty hybrid may cost more but in 5 years I know which one I will want to own to sell or trade.

Got to disagree with you there as with the pace of battery technology the current vehicles will be totally out of date, there is also the issue of the cost of replacing batteries and no one will want the pitiful range these vehicles currently offer which will decrease as they get older. Hybrids are not particularly fuel efficient when the engine has to be used but no one mentions that. Diesel has been demonised but Hybrid /EV technology is not yet mature enough to take its place and the current vehicles will not be worth anything in a few years time. Have a look at the second hand vales of Mitsubishi PHEVs!

 

[nilagin]

Only matters if you're the sort of person that has to drive a new or nearly new (less than six years old) car though to show off to your mates in the office car park / gym / school gates / outside the post office when collecting the pension etc.

To me that sums up a lot of people that by hybrids or evs. They want to be seen as being eco-friendly.
I buy a car based on what I want, other people' thoughts on it or their perception of me because of what I drive and how old it is means nothing.

 

[ianp5a]

As the EV technology is moving forward at quite a pace now, wouldn't the value of the first, second or third gen also plummet (as a used vehicle) as the newer versions are predicted to be better. Similar to the last generation of phone cost drops once the new one is out. I know I wouldn't want to pay a significant amount for an EV with two year old tech, on the battery/motor side of things.

Probably better to wait until the technology has settled a little before taking the plunge, once range, chargers etc is in the right area.

Got to disagree with you there as with the pace of battery technology the current vehicles will be totally out of date, there is also the issue of the cost of replacing batteries and no one will want the pitiful range these vehicles currently offer which will decrease as they get older. Hybrids are not particularly fuel efficient when the engine has to be used but no one mentions that. Diesel has been demonised but Hybrid /EV technology is not yet mature enough to take its place and the current vehicles will not be worth anything in a few years time. Have a look at the second hand vales of Mitsubishi PHEVs!

Upgrading a battery, or most electronic units, is a whole lot easier than replacing mechanical parts in an engine car. These can be designed to be swapped out, as you will want to keep pace with the changes as they come in. They will not need an experienced mechanic to do it either.

 

[nilagin]

Upgrading a battery, or most electronic units, is a whole lot easier than replacing mechanical parts in an engine car. These can be designed to be swapped out, as you will want to keep pace with the changes as they come in. They will not need an experienced mechanic to do it either.

No it will require someone experieced and specificallyv trained to work on hybrids and ev's instead

 

[Byker28i]

Upgrading a battery, or most electronic units, is a whole lot easier than replacing mechanical parts in an engine car. These can be designed to be swapped out, as you will want to keep pace with the changes as they come in. They will not need an experienced mechanic to do it either.

It's not that easy at the moment. More design needs to be put into these areas. The cost is huge as well, I was quoted around £8k to upgrade a 22Kw zoe to the 41Kw zoe as I'd found a cheap one with battery issues. If it was leased it was just under £3k but then it got complicated about the payments etc. One dealer told me I had to stop the lease and take out a new one with the bigger battery, another told me he'd have to look into it.

If I had the money, I could swap the engine in my car in around 3 hours. It only takes an hour to get it out.