Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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I probably do as well. More if I try to run!
 
gman said:
I think I produce 141mg/km, not great.
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The latest limit is 168, so it's not bad. To bring the 80mg/km limit forward by 3 years is madness. Some manufacturers are still struggling to get their cars through the current standard to meet the WLTP real world emissions from last September.
 
There are already some diesels that meet the new limit in the real world. Loads of manufacturers share engines anyway. They'll just have to do it a bit more until they can get their own ones acceptable.
 
There's that new adblue alternative in trial phase which has been mentioned on here previously where they reduced things by almost 100% in testing. Not sure what stage it is currently at.
 
srichards said:
There are already some diesels that meet the new limit in the real world. Loads of manufacturers share engines anyway. They'll just have to do it a bit more until they can get their own ones acceptable.
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It's not just a case of dropping in an engine. Engines have to be tested for specific applications, the cars then have to be tested, the engines then have to be homologated for that installation, then the vehicle has to be tested for emissions and fuel economy. An engine that produces 70mg/km in one vehicle could be producing 85mg/km in another.
 
It might not be easy to do but it's either that or quit altogether. Manufacturers have whinged and had emissions standards watered down over the years.

More EVs might be the result which is far better for everyone's lungs.
 
srichards said:
It might not be easy to do but it's either that or quit altogether. Manufacturers have whinged and had emissions standards watered down over the years.

More EVs might be the result which is far better for everyone's lungs.
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Also like so many other things, the general population have only recently started to take this issue (emissions) seriously. The scientific world hasn't helped us either, don't forget it was not that long ago they were encouraging us to buy diesels.
 
srichards said:
Manufacturers have whinged and had emissions standards watered down over the years.

More EVs might be the result which is far better for everyone's lungs.
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Take a look at how emissions standards have become more stringent since 2000 and you will realise your statement is complete bull.
Where do you think the money comes from to develop EV's? The fact that Tesla is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy whilst other car manufacturers aren't, ought to give you a clue.
 
What's the crack with modern diesel engines now regarding DPF issues?

I work and live in the same village so short journeys back and forth mainly, with town being about 4 miles away. We are a family of 5 with twins in car seats and a dog so needed a 7 seater for the space as even without the dog the kids need seperating to make any journey enjoyable, so ended up buying a 2 litre petrol Mazda 5.

We do the occasional longer journey, like tomorrow to Bluestone which will hurt the wallet with the MPG figures but I know if I go diesel then the DPF will clog up due to the type of driving I do. If I do get a diesel are there brand to avoid? I know the 1.6 diesel is in nearly everything now but from reading how the DPF works, it over fuels the car so diesel goes to the DPF and there it is heated to ignite which is great but if its mid regeneration and you switch the engine off then the over fuel goes past the piston rings and into the oil where if not caught, is big bucks to repair or the engine goes bang!

I've read some now use a seperate tank located by the rear axle area that direct injects the DPF so no engine issues but still there is the issue of the DPF clogging due to short journeys.

I'd like the newer petrols as I've seen some one point something turbo engines in MPV's but these are still to pricey for me.

So, do I stick with my 2 litre petrol or look to diesel ?
 
I would be very wary of buying any diesel car given your driving routine. I have read that some brands have had more DPF problems than others (Mazda, Land Rover amongst others). I would stick with what you have until you can afford a more economical petrol turbo variant. Be aware though, some manufacturers are now fitting GPF (VAG for example) although these are supposed to be less of a problem clogging up as the petrol engine exhaust temperature rises more rapidly than diesel so regeneration takes less time.
 
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nilagin said:
Take a look at how emissions standards have become more stringent since 2000 and you will realise your statement is complete bull.
Where do you think the money comes from to develop EV's? The fact that Tesla is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy whilst other car manufacturers aren't, ought to give you a clue.
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I would be very wary of buying a Tesla , my next door neighbour had a shunt in his before Xmas and its been waiting for parts, the ETA of the parts is April !!!!!! He is not remotely impressed that his £90k car is not easily repairable particularly as it wasn't even a big shunt! I wouldn't bet on Tesla being here this time in 12 months!
 
broc said:
I would be very wary of buying any diesel car given your driving routine. I have read that some brands have had more DPF problems than others (Mazda, Land Rover amongst others). I would stick with what you have until you can afford a more economical petrol turbo variant. Be aware though, some manufacturers are now fitting GPF (VAG for example) although these are supposed to be less of a problem clogging up as the petrol engine exhaust temperature rises more rapidly than diesel so regeneration takes less time.
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Yeah will do. My Mazda engine is apparently bulletproof but after an RAC visit today after the heat shield decided to come adrift and a quick check over I found it had no oil in and it was serviced 11 months ago. No oil leaks so presumably burning oil
 
Not good....
Most engines use a bit of oil, how many miles have you done since it was serviced? Have you topped it up yet, and if so how much oil did it need?

If it is using more than a litre of oil per couple of thousand miles then something is amiss.

There are a number of possible causes for oil consumption, things like worn valve stems, piston rings to name a couple but there may be a problem with the emissions system on the engine instead. Many modern engines use a valve to prevent 'oily' gases from the engine crankcase escaping. If you google PCV and Mazda you should find it's not an uncommon problem, if it's the PCV it's a cheap fix.
 
nilagin said:
@Mr Bump ain't gonna like it. :)
https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/air-index-nox-emissions-rating-launched/amp/
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You work at Ford don't you?
  • 2018 Land Rover Discovery 3.0 TD6 (diesel): A
  • 2017 Nissan Qashqai 1.2 DiG-T (petrol): B
  • 2015 Mini Cooper SD (diesel): C
  • 2018 Dacia Duster 1.5 dCi (diesel): D
  • 2017 Ford Focus 1.5 TDCi (diesel): D
  • 2017 Renault Clio 1.5 dCi (diesel): E
270-600 mg/km of NOx emission............

What did I say about Ford being a follower, not an innovator? I was talking about EV's, but looks like they don't do so well with their ICE either. :)
 
I'm sure there's a problem with LR associated with achieving these emissions in that the oil becomes heavily contaminated (over 8%) due to over-fueling in order to raise the temperature and burn off the soot and consequently the on-board service schedule is brought forward considerably (in particular an oil and filter change).
 
wuyanxu said:
You work at Ford don't you?
  • 2018 Land Rover Discovery 3.0 TD6 (diesel): A
  • 2017 Nissan Qashqai 1.2 DiG-T (petrol): B
  • 2015 Mini Cooper SD (diesel): C
  • 2018 Dacia Duster 1.5 dCi (diesel): D
  • 2017 Ford Focus 1.5 TDCi (diesel): D
  • 2017 Renault Clio 1.5 dCi (diesel): E
270-600 mg/km of NOx emission............

What did I say about Ford being a follower, not an innovator? I was talking about EV's, but looks like they don't do so well with their ICE either. :)
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You do realise it is now 2019? As of September 1st 2018 only cars that have passed the WLTP (real world driving) emissions test can be sold. The whole of the Ford car range passed the test well before the August 31st cut off date and as such didn't have to withdraw any models from sale unlike a lot of manufacturers have had to do. UK dealers for these other manufacturers had to pre-register a lot of there stock by Aug. 31st as they wouldn't have been able to sell them after that date. There are still manufacturers to this date who have been unable to reinstate these vehicles as they have yet to pass the test. VAG had to reduce the performance output for some of their vehicles to get them through the test and keep the vehicles on sale, yet Ford have maintained their performance figures.
So looks like they are doing very well and certainly not following.
 
gman said:
I'm sure there's a problem with LR associated with achieving these emissions in that the oil becomes heavily contaminated (over 8%) due to over-fueling in order to raise the temperature and burn off the soot and consequently the on-board service schedule is brought forward considerably (in particular an oil and filter change).
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I have seen this reported for the Ingenium range of diesel engines as fitted to the Discovery Sport and Range Rover Evoque. I am sure LR have been offering some customers 'free' oil changes as a consequence.
 
gman said:
I'm sure there's a problem with LR associated with achieving these emissions in that the oil becomes heavily contaminated (over 8%) due to over-fueling in order to raise the temperature and burn off the soot and consequently the on-board service schedule is brought forward considerably (in particular an oil and filter change).
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I would imagine it is down to how the vehicle is used. If it is just a lot of short town driving trips as opposed to longer motorway journeys where a full regeneration is possible any diesel car is susceptible to diluted contaminated oil and likely to get a message come up on the dash advising an oil and filter change is required.
 
nilagin said:
I would imagine it is down to how the vehicle is used. If it is just a lot of short town driving trips as opposed to longer motorway journeys where a full regeneration is possible any diesel car is susceptible to diluted contaminated oil and likely to get a message come up on the dash advising an oil and filter change is required.
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Certainly agree with this, although one guy in particular reported that his driving was almost exclusively on motorways yet it was still happening. He ended up sending his oil away for lab tests to then take to Land Rover. He ended up getting rid of the car because the risk to the engine was too great.
 
I seem to recall reading somewhere that using the wrong engine oil can cause DPF problems too. You are supposed to use SAPS low ash oil. Not all garages bothered using SAPS oil, which led to premature DPF clogging.

In hindsight I suspect that was what caused my problem 10 years ago with a DPF equipped Nissan XTrail I had which was fine for the first year but suffered repeated DPF problems just after a main-dealer service. My daily commute was 34 miles round trip with 14 miles of fast dual carriageway each way, I got rid of it & bought a petrol engined car shortly after as my job changed, affecting my daily route to work.
 
wuyanxu said:
You work at Ford don't you?
  • 2018 Land Rover Discovery 3.0 TD6 (diesel): A
  • 2017 Nissan Qashqai 1.2 DiG-T (petrol): B
  • 2015 Mini Cooper SD (diesel): C
  • 2018 Dacia Duster 1.5 dCi (diesel): D
  • 2017 Ford Focus 1.5 TDCi (diesel): D
  • 2017 Renault Clio 1.5 dCi (diesel): E
270-600 mg/km of NOx emission............

What did I say about Ford being a follower, not an innovator? I was talking about EV's, but looks like they don't do so well with their ICE either. :)
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Ford are garbage.
 
Mr Bump said:
Ford are garbage.
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Britain's best selling car manufacturer for last 42 consecutive years - Ford

Britain's best selling Commercial vehicle for last 52 consecutive years - Ford Transit

Europe's best selling Commercial vehicle for last 40 consecutive years - Ford Transit

USA best selling vehicle for last 41 consecutive years - Ford F -Series.

Fairly good achievement for apparent garbage. ;)
 
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Their actions around the Pinto were appalling though.
 
Nod said:
Their actions around the Pinto were appalling though.
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True, not one of their best moments, but they had only followed established risk guide lines which are still used today.
There has been other scandals from other manufacturers which never had such a high profile, but some actually resulted in more deaths or injuries.
http://fortune.com/2015/09/26/auto-industry-scandals/
 
nilagin said:
Britain's best selling car manufacturer for last 42 consecutive years - Ford

Britain's best selling Commercial vehicle for last 52 consecutive years - Ford Transit

Europe's best selling Commercial vehicle for last 40 consecutive years - Ford Transit

USA best selling vehicle for last 41 consecutive years - Ford F -Series.

Fairly good achievement for apparent garbage. ;)
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Imagine how many more they'd have sold if they weren't garbage :)
 
gman said:
I think they get very good economy, is it the 10-17 model? French cars always have nice soft comfy seats, good for town driving.
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pretty good economy yes it is the 1.2 pure tech petrol, around town nice and gently 48mpg and nice and low on the emmisions as well, very comfy seats as all citroens have suspension made of jelly and sponges.
 
Mr Bump said:
Tesla is reducing prices

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47410636
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In before Neil's spin on this. According to him, Tesla must be bankrupt by now?

Tesla have delivered their promised $35k Model 3. You can now order one and delivery is said to be in 2-4 weeks.

The "Standard Range Plus" for only $2000 more is most attractive. You get more range and premium interior for front seat area. This would be the one I'd order if it's available in UK.

Remember, it's not just about the cars. It's more about the customer experience on offer by Tesla. Paying more to buy a Tesla over likes of Kona gives you access to their supercharger network instead of using currently horrible public charging network, the phone app is very reliable in comparison to Nissan or non-existent Hyundai/Kia apps, and all the hardware built-in for later software unlocking.

While traditional car manufacturer talks about how Tesla have an competitive advantage by doesn't need to worry about ICE sales.
https://electrek.co/2019/02/28/vw-admits-tesla-advantage-protect-gas-car-business/
 
nilagin said:
No I said close to bankruptcy. You're beginning to get as bad as Mr Bump.
Perhaps you ought to read this for insight for the reduced prices.
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/elon...r-cheaper-as-it-battles-for-survival-11651399
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Where's the insight? It's a simple news article describing almost everything that was announced. (but no mention of SR plus trim)

I don't see how teasing you is a bad thing, we just have a difference in opinion in the same way you view diesels differently to Mr Bump. Cheer up :)


Speaking of cheering up. My workplace have just installed charging points, the payment system is yet to be turned on. So far, I've done 2 days of my commute without paying for energy. :D
 
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wuyanxu said:
Where's the insight? It's a simple news article describing almost everything that was announced. (but no mention of SR plus trim)

I don't see how teasing you is a bad thing, we just have a difference in opinion in the same way you view diesels differently to Mr Bump. Cheer up :)


Speaking of cheering up. My workplace have just installed charging points, the payment system is yet to be turned on. So far, I've done 2 days of my commute without paying for energy. :D
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The insight is that they are desperate to make a profit.
Tesla shares rose when they said an announcement was coming, if the announcement was such a good thing, why did share prices fall again straight after?
Musk has already said they expect to make another loss in this 1st quarter, he is just hopeful of a profit in the 2nd quarter.
He refused to answer questions after the announcement concerning how many dealerships would be closed or how many jobs would be lost.
Tesla also have a lot of work to do to overcome poor build quality issues, the percentage of cars that leave the production line not needing attention is very low and roughly equals the percentage of cars other manufacturers need to fix issues on. As Tesla has in the past month or so been reducing it's production work force, it causes concern for future quality.
Saying your views differ to mine just as Mr Bumps differ with regard to diesels doesn't make it look good for you. None of his views are actually based on fact especially when latest diesel cars conforming to WLTP emissions are cleaner than his petrol car. Yet he still continues to try to slate them.

My workplace has had free charging spaces for at least 7yrs and as far as I am aware, no plans to start charging.
 
You did a bit!
 
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