Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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wuyanxu said:
In before Neil's spin on this. According to him, Tesla must be bankrupt by now?

Tesla have delivered their promised $35k Model 3. You can now order one and delivery is said to be in 2-4 weeks.

The "Standard Range Plus" for only $2000 more is most attractive. You get more range and premium interior for front seat area. This would be the one I'd order if it's available in UK.

Remember, it's not just about the cars. It's more about the customer experience on offer by Tesla. Paying more to buy a Tesla over likes of Kona gives you access to their supercharger network instead of using currently horrible public charging network, the phone app is very reliable in comparison to Nissan or non-existent Hyundai/Kia apps, and all the hardware built-in for later software unlocking.

While traditional car manufacturer talks about how Tesla have an competitive advantage by doesn't need to worry about ICE sales.
https://electrek.co/2019/02/28/vw-admits-tesla-advantage-protect-gas-car-business/
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Musk also doesn't care about making money from Tesla or SpaceX. His goals for Tesla are to bring electric cars into the mainstream. It's why they open sourced their patents. So anyone saying they're nearing bankruptcy, as if it's a bad thing, is missing the point somewhat
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Musk also doesn't care about making money from Tesla or SpaceX. His goals for Tesla are to bring electric cars into the mainstream. It's why they open sourced their patents. So anyone saying they're nearing bankruptcy, as if it's a bad thing, is missing the point somewhat
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So if they do go bankrupt, the thousands of jobs lost, the lack of after sales back up won't matter then? If their patents are open sourced, why is it they have different chargers?
The fact that Tesla cars are overly expensive and badly built is hardly inspiration for making electric vehicles mainstream. If you really think that is the purpose then I am afraid it is you that just doesn't get it.
 
At a guess, they have different chargers so that users of other makes can't tap in to their infrastructure for free.
 
nilagin said:
So if they do go bankrupt, the thousands of jobs lost, the lack of after sales back up won't matter then? If their patents are open sourced, why is it they have different chargers?
The fact that Tesla cars are overly expensive and badly built is hardly inspiration for making electric vehicles mainstream. If you really think that is the purpose then I am afraid it is you that just doesn't get it.
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I never said the jobs didn't matter, but Tesla as a car manufacturer are pretty insignificant, but as charging and battery advancement goes, they've brought that on leaps and bounds since they were incepted.

And Elon has stated the aim multiple times. As with SpaceX. He put half of what he made out of PayPal into them and said he was prepared to lose it all because he thought they were important things to advance on it. Muddied a little since they were floated on the market as they now have to also keep shareholders happy.

The patents for the batteries and motors are open sourced, anyone can use them. Doesn't mean they have to have exactly the same socket. But it does mean that companies that have a better track record in mass manufacturing can use their technology to get cars delivered to market faster. Battery technology is what has been holding things back for a long while.
 
Elon Musk owns around 20% of Tesla stock, I would imagine the shareholders holding the other 80% are more interested in Tesla making money (or not losing their stake in the company) even if he is not. According to the US media, lack of senior management with automotive experience is Tesla's biggest problem.
 
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The Polestar 2 is set to have impressive range which I believe some engineering trickery has made happen. Other than the slab of a touch screen plonked on the dash it is a seriously impressive car with some very nice tech. I agree that battery technology is what holds us back, just as our current power technology holds us back with space travel. But I'm sure at some point in the future we will have a major breakthrough with generating power and also storing it - most likely a whole new type of technology.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
I never said the jobs didn't matter, but Tesla as a car manufacturer are pretty insignificant, but as charging and battery advancement goes, they've brought that on leaps and bounds since they were incepted.
But it does mean that companies that have a better track record in mass manufacturing can use their technology to get cars delivered to market faster. Battery technology is what has been holding things back for a long while.
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All still pointless if no one can make a profit from it though.
A lot of car manufacturers develop their cars through motorsport. 3 or 4 years ago Tesla built a Model S race car with the intention of a one make race Series, the world is still waiting for it to happen, yet we have had Formula E for several years now. Even Jaguar has introduced an E Pace race Series as support package for this year's Formula E season. Tesla have been in the car manufacturing game for over 10yrs now and if it was that innovative, the cars would be affordable and better quality whilst still improving range and battery life. Every time they start a new model, they seriously struggle with production. Perhaps the time and money could have been better spent actually working with car manufacturers capable of building cars and they would be further along with their advancements in the technology.
 
Their highway efficiency, their battery management, their autopilot software and their OTA update system are not innovative?

Which car can beat Model 3 on efficiency? Certainly none of the Formula E sponsors. https://insideevs.com/autobahn-range-tesla-model-x-audi-e-tron-jaguar-i-pace/
Which car have better battery temperature management? Certainly not the best selling non-Tesla EV.
Which car can upgrade their assistive technology without owner buying a whole new car?

If Ford or any traditional manufacturer were innovative, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Because they would have invested in software and battery tech more than 10 years ago.

Say what you will about financial aspect of Tesla, but you can't deny as an industry disputer, they have innovated the most and have successfully kickstarted a big change on the whole industry.

nilagin said:
Tesla also have a lot of work to do to overcome poor build quality issues, the percentage of cars that leave the production line not needing attention is very low and roughly equals the percentage of cars other manufacturers need to fix issues on.
Saying your views differ to mine just as Mr Bumps differ with regard to diesels doesn't make it look good for you. None of his views are actually based on fact especially when latest diesel cars conforming to WLTP emissions are cleaner than his petrol car. Yet he still continues to try to slate them.
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Well then, share the source of facts you have stated. I always back up what I say with facts.
 
wuyanxu said:
Their highway efficiency, their battery management, their autopilot software and their OTA update system are not innovative?

Which car can beat Model 3 on efficiency? Certainly none of the Formula E sponsors. https://insideevs.com/autobahn-range-tesla-model-x-audi-e-tron-jaguar-i-pace/
Which car have better battery temperature management? Certainly not the best selling non-Tesla EV.
Which car can upgrade their assistive technology without owner buying a whole new car?

If Ford or any traditional manufacturer were innovative, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Because they would have invested in software and battery tech more than 10 years ago.

Say what you will about financial aspect of Tesla, but you can't deny as an industry disputer, they have innovated the most and have successfully kickstarted a big change on the whole industry.


Well then, share the source of facts you have stated. I always back up what I say with facts.
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So Tesla has the best battery temperature management. That is odd seeing as poor battery temperature management / cooling is one of the main reasons that the race series, has still yet to happen. It's autopilot is pretty a combination of different elements that other manufacturers have had for years. The reason no one has bothered with a full system is because there has been no need.
Being able to update the assistive system technology without buying a new car is fine, but where will these updates come from if the company has gone bankrupt?
As for evidence of build quality issues.
https://nordic.businessinsider.com/tesla-hit-model-3-target-by-reworking-thousands-of-cars-2018-8/
Just 14% on average of Tesla production passes out ok without the need for rework, whilst most other car manufacturers are operating at an 80% success rate.

If you think car manufacturers haven't been investing in EV and battery technology for longer than 10years then you truly are out of touch. Lack of interest and expense of the end product has meant it has been slow and not worthwhile.
 
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What is not mentions is diesel cars per galleon do a lot more to the gallon than a petrol car. Therefore less pollution per mile which has been overlooked with equal size engines.
What causes pollution is idiots driving kids to school when they could walk, short journeys such as shopping trips when there is a local shop in the next road . Those are the pollution makers.

Chris Grayling talks out of his backside with stupid statements like that, he is not a vehicle mechanic and betting he doesn't know even the difference between a petrol and diesel engine if he looked at them. He is a politician which proves he knows nothing like the rest of them. To him a BIG END of a PISTON is someones backside
 
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But does that have any bearing on the discussion?
 
I'm sure it'll all come to a head before too long :D
 
Got them covered.
 
Pat of the fire reignighted 6 hours later after being put out as well.

Of course it was green smoke produced, from renewable sources... :D
 
nilagin said:
Saw that earlier. One way to start closing down dealerships and claim on the insurance too. ;)
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Are you honestly suggesting that the fire was deliberate? Possibly verging on libel if you are.
 
Possibly, although given his previous attacks on Tesla, possibly not - maybe just an attempt to make it seem so.
 
So Tesla are going 'online only' for car sales, that seems a leap of faith that customers will splash out a considerable amount of money to purchase a new car they have not had the chance to really have a good look at previously.
 
Nod said:
Possibly, although given his previous attacks on Tesla, possibly not - maybe just an attempt to make it seem so.
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It was one of 4 service centers, not the sales centers which they are closing
 
Byker28i said:
There'sUS mechanics who buy scrap tesla's and fix them up (Tesla does not like this) or re-purpose the batteries.

The clip below shows what happens when it goes wrong - each battery cell is like a big torch battery, and when they blow they really set on fire

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdDi1haA71Q
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The bit from 11:30 is a bit telling! At least in their native application, the batteries are managed, cooled and rather better contained than they are were in that car!
 
Byker28i said:
Pat of the fire reignighted 6 hours later after being put out as well.
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If any of the cars caught fire, it could be a battery reuniting. Cars have to be taken to a secure compound after an accident which has resulted in a fire because of the batteries reigniting.
 
Byker28i said:
Tesla 3 is exactly whats needed to make EV more mainstream. 220 mile range for under £27k, longer range versions available
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1094853/Tesla-Model-3-news-price-UK-for-sale

Just need the infrastructure...
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That under £27k price is just a conversion of the $ price and doesn't include import fees. Musk has predicted the base Model 3 will be £33k.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....usk-predicts-base-tesla-model-3-uk-price/amp/
 
PaulF said:
So Tesla are going 'online only' for car sales, that seems a leap of faith that customers will splash out a considerable amount of money to purchase a new car they have not had the chance to really have a good look at previously.
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They did say that they will have cars for people to view and they also operate a limited period buy and try, where if you decide you don't like the car, you can get a full refund.
 
Byker28i said:
There'sUS mechanics who buy scrap tesla's and fix them up (Tesla does not like this) or re-purpose the batteries.

The clip below shows what happens when it goes wrong - each battery cell is like a big torch battery, and when they blow they really set on fire

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdDi1haA71Q
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Indeed. Damage overheating or shorting pretty easily leads to fire with any battery, even single aa. It's why couriers hate sticking them on airplanes.

A single aa at 16 mins, granted he disassembles it, goes up pretty quick:

View: https://youtu.be/tBg4ximDrsk
 
Since it's
part of its strategy to electrify its range of cars
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, he should, although since it's JLR, he probably won't!
 
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