Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[Kieranstandishphoto]

Not read all the posts, but I assume people have mentioned that EV’s are simply out of the question for people who live in homes without drives, or dedicated ev parking spots, which will be a lot.

 

[Nod]

Yup, many (many) times.

 

[Kieranstandishphoto]

Yup, many (many) times.

Cool, was way to many posts to read there is also things like BMW and Mercedes insist on new battery packs if an airbag or seatbelt tensioner is activated during a collision, Mercedes are 12 grand each. Electric is coming, no doubt, and it is slightly cheaper to run at the moment, but it won’t be once the electric companies prices up like the oil companies do.

 

[gman]

More new @Mr Bump isn't going to like.
https://www.westmonster.com/jaguar-land-rover-planning-major-investment-in-brexit-britain/

There is still that uncertainty around their reliability (in particular and perhaps ironically with their electrics) but I reckon if they changed their manufacturer's warranty to 5 years it could threaten the Bavarian hordes somewhat. I for one would like to see JLR have great success.

 

[Nod]

Slightly cheaper? Around 4p/mile at current prices. The A150 that our Leaf replaced was doing about 25-28MPG; I'll let you do the sums! Still waiting for the bill for the home charge point installation which happened back in May/June - chased them a few times but bored of that! If/when the bill arrives, it'll be under £100 (IIRC).

 

[Cobra]

hased them a few times but bored of that! If/when the bill arrives, it'll be under £100 (IIRC).

I hope you are right, My daughters FiL got bill for around the £500 mark for the cable to his house and another couple of 100 for the "power point"

 

[Nod]

Just 4m of cable, the point and labour for us - wired into existing house distribution board. 75% subsidy as well.

 

[Cobra]

Fairy nuff, this was a "whole new service"

 

[wyx087]

So Tesla has the best battery temperature management. That is odd seeing as poor battery temperature management / cooling is one of the main reasons that the race series, has still yet to happen. It's autopilot is pretty a combination of different elements that other manufacturers have had for years. The reason no one has bothered with a full system is because there has been no need.
Being able to update the assistive system technology without buying a new car is fine, but where will these updates come from if the company has gone bankrupt?
As for evidence of build quality issues.
https://nordic.businessinsider.com/tesla-hit-model-3-target-by-reworking-thousands-of-cars-2018-8/
Just 14% on average of Tesla production passes out ok without the need for rework, whilst most other car manufacturers are operating at an 80% success rate.

If you think car manufacturers haven't been investing in EV and battery technology for longer than 10years then you truly are out of touch. Lack of interest and expense of the end product has meant it has been slow and not worthwhile.

So your figure comes from during a sprint for 5000 per week production, first time ever producing at that rate for a young car company, the need for rework is high. Which other recently established car manufacturer have hit that production rate?

Tesla have the best battery temperature management for consumer cars. The only car that is better at managing temperature is Porsche Mission-E (Taycan, spelling correct?) but it isn't out yet and it is designed specifically for constant hammering.
Lane centring like Autopilot only became available in recent years, whereas Autopilot was available back in 2015. Please do show me a car that can do lane centring "for years" before 2015. Also, where is the mythical car that you claim can do autonomous lane change "for years"?

EV investment by traditional manufacturers are so slow, a glacier could catch up! As I posted earlier, slow EV adoption means more polluting ICE sales. But thanks to Tesla, EV investments have now been sped up multiple folds. Musk have said the goal of Tesla had always been to speed up EV adoption, I'd consider this a success.

Tesla has just upset a lot of it's existing customers by devaluing their cars considerably. But it will be ok for new customers.
As way of compensation existing owners have been told they can spend more money.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla...ke-top-model-s-and-model-x-over-40000-cheaper

I expected no less from your ability to spin this.

Cheaper car => more people tempted to buy => faster adoption to EV.
The existing owners had experienced an exceptionally low depreciation rate up to now. This price change would most likely put them on par to other luxury vehicles.

So now you can get supercar 2.4s to 60 acceleration for cheaper than the slow 3.3s BMW M5, but with more interior space and more range than most petrol cars (my parent's Volvo S40 petrol, a Ford creation, can only do a bit over 300 miles a tank)

I hope you are right, My daughters FiL got bill for around the £500 mark for the cable to his house and another couple of 100 for the "power point"

It was fixed price of £99 for me to install Pod-point EV charger, thanks to gov grant and Nissan. Would have been free if I didn't spec it up to 7kW for future cars.
About a year later, it costed me £140 for an electrician to supply and install a double external socket close to the EV charger, using the same beefy 40amp armoured cable and also an additional fuse box.
The external socket can be used to charge 2 EV's at 3kW without worrying about overloading the wiring. With dedicated 7KW EV charger, my driveway have wiring to charge 3 EV's at the same time.

Without government grant, I'd expect ~£350 to buy the charger (would be much cheaper when mass production kicks in and no more government grant), <£150 for a sparky. The gov grant is making the companies get away with charging more for installs and chargers. It would be fairer to put a smaller grant on ALL chargers sold rather than house/EV specific (eg. £50+ after grant to buy a charger). Then another small grant for install costs that is based on house/EV.

 

[nilagin]

So your figure comes from during a sprint for 5000 per week production, first time ever producing at that rate for a young car company, the need for rework is high. Which other recently established car manufacturer have hit that production rate?

Tesla have the best battery temperature management for consumer cars. The only car that is better at managing temperature is Porsche Mission-E (Taycan, spelling correct?) but it isn't out yet and it is designed specifically for constant hammering.
Lane centring like Autopilot only became available in recent years, whereas Autopilot was available back in 2015. Please do show me a car that can do lane centring "for years" before 2015. Also, where is the mythical car that you claim can do autonomous lane change "for years"?

EV investment by traditional manufacturers are so slow, a glacier could catch up! As I posted earlier, slow EV adoption means more polluting ICE sales. But thanks to Tesla, EV investments have now been sped up multiple folds. Musk have said the goal of Tesla had always been to speed up EV adoption, I'd consider this a success.


I expected no less from your ability to spin this.

Cheaper car => more people tempted to buy => faster adoption to EV.
The existing owners had experienced an exceptionally low depreciation rate up to now. This price change would most likely put them on par to other luxury vehicles.

So now you can get supercar 2.4s to 60 acceleration for cheaper than the slow 3.3s BMW M5, but with more interior space and more range than most petrol cars (my parent's Volvo S40 petrol, a Ford creation, can only do a bit over 300 miles a tank)

Tesla have been building cars since 2008. Every time they have brought out a new model they have struggled with production.

2013 Audi A6 has lane keeping.
Lane keeping is just an extension of the lane warning system which cars had prior to 2010. Not sure why you feel Autopilot is a big deal or a necessity , if you can't steer a car and control it, you really shouldn't be driving.
You still can't grasp car value depreciation can you. It has nothing to do with my spin on something it is all there in the link, if you can't get your head round it and see it for what it really is you think it is just putting a spin on it.
Volvo S40 is a Volvo creation not a Ford creation it merely shared the same platform as the Focus and Mazda 3. All engines used were Volvo none were Ford. Other than sharing things like brake discs and calipers and the Focus ST and RS using the Volvo T5 engine there are no other connections.

I can get 400+ miles out of a tank full of fuel from my Focus if I try and it only has a 10 gallon tank as opposed to 12.5 gallons that a normal Focus has. But like a Tesla or any Other car for that matter maximum mileage per tank depends on how it is driven. I could quite easily get my car below 200 miles per tank.
The sudden take up in EV and manufacturer involvement would have more to do with the impending banning of the sale of new ice vehicles within the next 11-20yrs and diesel scaremongering than Tesla.

 

[wyx087]

Tesla have been building cars since 2008. Every time they have brought out a new model they have struggled with production.

2013 Audi A6 has lane keeping.
Lane keeping is just an extension of the lane warning system which cars had prior to 2010. Not sure why you feel Autopilot is a big deal or a necessity , if you can't steer a car and control it, you really shouldn't be driving.

The sudden take up in EV and manufacturer involvement would have more to do with the impending banning of the sale of new ice vehicles within the next 11-20yrs and diesel scaremongering than Tesla.

Everytime Tesla have bought out a new car, it's completely new. They never mass produced made a car before Model S, no one ever produced complex twin hinged falcon wing door before Model X, no manufacturer have never produced any EV in such number as Model 3.

Lane keep is different to lane centering. Former is assistive tech to keep you within the lines only, left by itself you'll be driving like a drunk. Latter keeps you centered like a normal driver. By your logic, automatic gearbox is just an extension of manual gearbox, if you can't change gears, then you really shouldn't be driving.

Let's be realistic, there is only banning of pure ICE vehicles. Hybrids of some form will still be allowed. But why are every manufacturer bringing out pure EV's? If it was only due to the ban as you have suggested, simple solution that still makes the most money, with the least investment would be to add hybrid motor to all vehicles, followed by slowly increasing the battery size.

Why are VAG investing in huge battery factory and electric only MEB platform?

 

[nilagin]

Everytime Tesla have bought out a new car, it's completely new. They never mass produced made a car before Model S, no one ever produced complex twin hinged falcon wing door before Model X, no manufacturer have never produced any EV in such number as Model 3.

Lane keep is different to lane centering. Former is assistive tech to keep you within the lines only, left by itself you'll be driving like a drunk. Latter keeps you centered like a normal driver. By your logic, automatic gearbox is just an extension of manual gearbox, if you can't change gears, then you really shouldn't be driving.

Let's be realistic, there is only banning of pure ICE vehicles. Hybrids of some form will still be allowed. But why are every manufacturer bringing out pure EV's? If it was only due to the ban as you have suggested, simple solution that still makes the most money, with the least investment would be to add hybrid motor to all vehicles, followed by slowly increasing the battery size.

Why are VAG investing in huge battery factory and electric only MEB platform?

Basic fundamentals of building a car is the same regardless of powertrain. Yet Tesla struggle regardless of the number they are building.
If you really think a choice of automatic or manual gearbox is the same as being able to control a car and keep it in a lane without wandering, then perhaps you shouldn't be driving. One is downright dangerous and could cause serious accidents and the other is perfectly safe.

As i said before Autopilot or Lane centering etc. is just a combination of systems that other manufacturers have had before. Lane warning, adaptive cruise control, traffic sign recognition, ABS, parking sensors, active city stop, self parking.
Hybrids will have to increase their electric range to be sold after 2040. A lot of current hybrids won't meet requirements. As I have said before some manufacturers are developing all powertrain options for their cars.

VAG may be investing as you say but that does not mean they are going fully EV just yet. VAG have tied up with Ford on commercial vehicle development and there is to be tie ups with regards cars too. There is a chance Ford engines/hybrids will be finding there way into VAG cars and Ford have joint invested with VAG into electrification and batteries etc.

 

[Cobra]

Every time they have brought out a new model they have struggled with production.

So much so, he keeps firing them into space

 

[wyx087]

If you really think a choice of automatic or manual gearbox is the same as being able to control a car and keep it in a lane without wandering, then perhaps you shouldn't be driving. One is downright dangerous and could cause serious accidents and the other is perfectly safe.

As i said before Autopilot or Lane centering etc. is just a combination of systems that other manufacturers have had before. Lane warning, adaptive cruise control, traffic sign recognition, ABS, parking sensors, active city stop, self parking.
Hybrids will have to increase their electric range to be sold after 2040. A lot of current hybrids won't meet requirements. As I have said before some manufacturers are developing all powertrain options for their cars.

If you really can't tell the difference between lane centering vs lane keep assist (or lane departure warning), then all hope is lost explaining why 2015 Autopilot is only matched by recently released Nissan ProPilot or Volvo Pilot Assist.

Traditional car manufacturer loves incremental changes isn't it? Change a few small parts, a minor bumper re-shape count as facelift.
In a world without Tesla, the micro-hybrid like 48v system on VAG cars are normal development, with mild-hybrid thrown in as engine option for "green credential". Plug-in hybrids will come around 2020 and car manufacturers will have 20 years to develop cars with enough EV range to satisfy the ban. The ban that would have been relaxed multiple times due to lobbying pressure from car industry.
But now, there's whole new factories built for EV's, because all legacy manufacturers face an existential crisis if they followed too far behind.
https://evannex.com/blogs/news/german-automakers-face-existential-challenge-fighting-tesla

 

[nilagin]

Your ineptitude to read is astounding. I have listed all the functions that cars have had for years that combined together make Lane Centering possible.
I have managed to find a video of yourself and a few other similarly skilled motorists on your way to a Tesla dealership before they are closed down.

 

[nilagin]

In a world without Tesla, the micro-hybrid like 48v system on VAG cars are normal development, with mild-hybrid thrown in as engine option for "green credential".

There were EV cars long before Tesla you know. Ford had an electric pickup truck as I mentioned before and a 2 seater city car over 20yrs ago. But total lack of interest from motorists meant the vehicles were canned and investment in development reduced in favour of cars people actually wanted to buy.
Had Tesla continued basing their Ev's on existing more affordable cars then perhaps they could be taken seriously and their products would be of better quality to suit the price.

 

[wyx087]

There were EV cars long before Tesla you know. Ford had an electric pickup truck as I mentioned before and a 2 seater city car over 20yrs ago. But total lack of interest from motorists meant the vehicles were canned and investment in development reduced in favour of cars people actually wanted to buy.
Had Tesla continued basing their Ev's on existing more affordable cars then perhaps they could be taken seriously and their products would be of better quality to suit the price.

It's so naïve of you to think it's all about number of cars sold.

Have you considered WHY there was a total lack of interest in EV's? It's all because the electric vehicle was not made to look like a highly desirable high performance vehicle. How many BHP does those Ford EV have? Can Ford EV compete with your Ford RS line of vehicles?

There is also a conflict of interest. Traditional ICE manufacturer have spent billions making sure their engine plants are able to build ICE as fast and as cheaply as possible. Why would they take the effort to change public interest to a completely different powertrain which forces them to throw away their bread and butter?

Tesla is different, Tesla's survival depends on people WANTING an electric car. So they start by building them to be highly desirable and give them supercar performance. Tesla (or any EV-only manufacturer for that matter) would not have survived if they based their EV's on existing affordable cars and chased sales numbers.

Your ineptitude to read is astounding. I have listed all the functions that cars have had for years that combined together make Lane Centering possible.

Another example of traditional car manufacturer's tickbox mentality. All those functions although ticks the "lane assist" box, but they are nowhere near the level that allows you to sit back ready to take over and only monitor the car.

I call your way of thinking "tickbox mentality", this is where as soon as a feature is passable it gets slapped a marketing name and get a tickbox. For example: built-in sat-nav, would anyone consider those early sat-nav in 00's really usable? They are slow to calculate route, laggy to browse and difficult to enter address. Yet the exact same car with sat-nav ticked can be sold far more than the car without.

 

[Nod]

One thing confuses me about the autonomous Teslas - WHY?! It's supposed to be a really good drivers' car so why make it not need a driver? The "supervisor" can't (or should that be MAY not) leave the car to do it all on its own. Besides, they're not that good at it in the current world.

 

[wyx087]

Because Musk?

I don't know to be honest.

But I do know I want my driving aids to be constantly improving as software develops and legislation catches up. I don't want to be required to buy a whole new car just to get a minor increase in functionality and tiny change to the bumper. Tesla is the only ones doing over-the-air updates to the whole car.

 

[Nod]

I don't really want any driving aids. Sat nav is quite handy when going to a new destination but I can do it using maps if necessary. Cruise control I dislike, although I do use it in reverse, having a limit set a few MPH over the limit (real speed rather than speedo reported) could be a license saver! If you're not aware that you're drifting over lane markings, you're driving without due care (and I've lost a few mates to SMIDSY).

 

[nilagin]

It's so naïve of you to think it's all about number of cars sold.

Have you considered WHY there was a total lack of interest in EV's? It's all because the electric vehicle was not made to look like a highly desirable high performance vehicle. How many BHP does those Ford EV have? Can Ford EV compete with your Ford RS line of vehicles?

There is also a conflict of interest. Traditional ICE manufacturer have spent billions making sure their engine plants are able to build ICE as fast and as cheaply as possible. Why would they take the effort to change public interest to a completely different powertrain which forces them to throw away their bread and butter?

Tesla is different, Tesla's survival depends on people WANTING an electric car. So they start by building them to be highly desirable and give them supercar performance. Tesla (or any EV-only manufacturer for that matter) would not have survived if they based their EV's on existing affordable cars and chased sales numbers.


Another example of traditional car manufacturer's tickbox mentality. All those functions although ticks the "lane assist" box, but they are nowhere near the level that allows you to sit back ready to take over and only monitor the car.

I call your way of thinking "tickbox mentality", this is where as soon as a feature is passable it gets slapped a marketing name and get a tickbox. For example: built-in sat-nav, would anyone consider those early sat-nav in 00's really usable? They are slow to calculate route, laggy to browse and difficult to enter address. Yet the exact same car with sat-nav ticked can be sold far more than the car without.

Until the last few years where EV range has started to improve, Ev's have only really been useful as a town or city car. They wouldn't need RS performance in an environment where the average speed is around 20mph and being stuck in stop start traffic.

You need to Google Tesla as you obviously think the 1st Tesla was the S, but you would be wrong, the first Tesla was a roadsters which was based on the Lotus Elise.
Of course Tesla need to sell the cars in numbers, that is how companies stay in business. Because Tesla have been unable to sell enough cars since 2008 is one of the reasons they have been unable to make a profit and put themselves on the verge of bankruptcy.
You really are deluded if you think Lane Centering or Autopilot is more than the combination of the list of features I mentioned as they are the exact features required for them to work. Add in the satnav/GPS and you would also be able to get the car to come to you like the Model X. The only drawback to overcome would be a conventional car having a gearbox unlike an EV. But an autobox should be easy enough to control to overcome that.
Building EV, hybrid and ICE variants of each model of car isn't conflict of interest, it is giving customers the choice of powertrain which can suit their needs best.
You obviously don't know much about cars or have been buying the wrong cars if you think that a facelift or replacement model is just new bumpers. There is improvement in engines, then there are suspension improvements, weight savings and lots of other things that you can't improve with a simple software download.

 

[nilagin]

@Mr Bump isn't going to like it.
Jaguar i Pace wins 2019 European Car of the Year after tie breaker.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-geneva-motor-show/jaguar-i-pace-wins-2019-car-year.

I am disappointed the Focus came in at 4th as it was powered by a mild hybrid engine the like of which I have been testing and developing the last few years.

 

[PaulF]

Because Musk?

I don't know to be honest.

But I do know I want my driving aids to be constantly improving as software develops and legislation catches up. I don't want to be required to buy a whole new car just to get a minor increase in functionality and tiny change to the bumper. Tesla is the only ones doing over-the-air updates to the whole car.

Because Musk?

I don't know to be honest.

But I do know I want my driving aids to be constantly improving as software develops and legislation catches up. I don't want to be required to buy a whole new car just to get a minor increase in functionality and tiny change to the bumper. Tesla is the only ones doing over-the-air updates to the whole car.

Wow, upgrading the whole car over the air, that's impressive, especially the bumper bit

My non Tesla gets automatic updates over the air, communicates back with the manufacturer any issues to the point that I have been requested to book it in to have some warranty repair/upgrades performed (physical parts).

Been looking into a Model 3 in the last couple of days but its difficult to find costs on Tesla's website with regard to servicing etc. You can get a maintenance pack but doesn't really say at what cost.
I did find a forum that had the prices for servicing a model S and they were scary prices for a service schedule of every 12500 miles, first one was £400 and the second was £700, they alternated so I'd be looking at £1100+ per year at that rate assuming no non warranty parts were required.

Still interested in more detail on the model 3 though.

 

[gman]

Are Tesla parts readily available? I've heard that there are supply problems. This is something which put me off getting a JEEP SRT, I was hearing first hand from mechanics of a four month wait for relatively routine parts - in the UK that is. Shame because I kinda liked the look, spec and capability of the JEEP although worried about reliability and obtaining parts.

 

[Nod]

ISTR that when Smarts were first around, there were severe problems with obtaining tyres.

 

[wyx087]

You really are deluded if you think Lane Centering or Autopilot is more than the combination of the list of features I mentioned as they are the exact features required for them to work.

Lane warning, adaptive cruise control, traffic sign recognition, ABS, parking sensors, active city stop, self parking.

Let's get this straight, you think Lane departure warning is the same as the car actively centering the car in a lane?

You need to Google Tesla as you obviously think the 1st Tesla was the S, but you would be wrong, the first Tesla was a roadsters which was based on the Lotus Elise.
Of course Tesla need to sell the cars in numbers, that is how companies stay in business. Because Tesla have been unable to sell enough cars since 2008 is one of the reasons they have been unable to make a profit and put themselves on the verge of bankruptcy.

Building EV, hybrid and ICE variants of each model of car isn't conflict of interest, it is giving customers the choice of powertrain which can suit their needs best.

How many original Roadsters were there? I said S was the first car Tesla mass produced, was that a wrong statement to make?
Answering my own question: 2,450 total Roadsters were delivered. Model S production is more than that number in 1 month. You tell me Mr car manufacturer employee, whether S was their first mass produced car.

Offering consumer a choice is all well and good. But why are there no flagship halo electric cars from any of the traditional car manufacturers? All of their halo cars are hybrid at best, and are programmed to fire up ICE the moment you floor it. As though wagging their finger and say: "no, no, ICE is still the power source you want."

Luckily, there are new manufacturers. We are no longer locked in by complexity of ICE, new manufacturers now have lower barrier to entry. The fastest road car is an electric: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47418405

Are Tesla parts readily available? I've heard that there are supply problems. This is something which put me off getting a JEEP SRT, I was hearing first hand from mechanics of a four month wait for relatively routine parts - in the UK that is. Shame because I kinda liked the look, spec and capability of the JEEP although worried about reliability and obtaining parts.

Special parts that has to be custom made will be slower than big manufacturers. Such as whole new bonnet with correct colour.

Normal parts are easily obtained: https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=...ta=&aq=f&aqi=g3g-s1g6&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&cad=h

Wow, upgrading the whole car over the air, that's impressive, especially the bumper bit

My non Tesla gets automatic updates over the air, communicates back with the manufacturer any issues to the point that I have been requested to book it in to have some warranty repair/upgrades performed (physical parts).

Out of interest, what car have you got?

Does it introduce new features through OTA updates? Features like dashcam, semiautonomous lane change. Do you get a newly updated user interface after OTA update?

 

[nilagin]

Let's get this straight, you think Lane departure warning is the same as the car actively centering the car in a lane?



How many original Roadsters were there? I said S was the first car Tesla mass produced, was that a wrong statement to make?
Answering my own question: 2,450 total Roadsters were delivered. Model S production is more than that number in 1 month. You tell me Mr car manufacturer employee, whether S was their first mass produced car.

You are really struggling with this aren't you. The Tesla Lane Centering system will rely on something like the Lane Departure Warning system to actually register the car is wandering off line. Instead of giving the driver an audible warning (which lets face it is more than necessary because the driver should be paying attention anyway) but Tesla has taken it a step further and using a combination of other features that I listed, steers the car back on course. How can it be so hard to understand that?
If Tesla is only building around 2500 Model S a month that still isn't in the realms of mass production.
In it's first year of production Tesla were struggling to build 20 cars a week. It took them 3 years to get up to 1000 cars per week. When the Model 3 went into production Tesla's aim was for 5000 cars per week, yet in it's first year they only managed to build and deliver around 2000 cars in total and something like 80% of those cars were actually built in the last month or so of it's production.

If you think the Model S is a mass production vehicle, your claim that a new bonnet would have to be custom made makes no sense at all.

 

[wyx087]

You are really struggling with this aren't you. The Tesla Lane Centering system will rely on something like the Lane Departure Warning system to actually register the car is wandering off line. Instead of giving the driver an audible warning (which lets face it is more than necessary because the driver should be paying attention anyway) but Tesla has taken it a step further and using a combination of other features that I listed, steers the car back on course. How can it be so hard to understand that?

You are the one struggling here. Let's put it in simple terms, there are 3 levels of lane assist: passive lane departure warning, active lane keep assist, active lane centering. How can it be so hard to understand that?
You can't just lump all lane assistive technology into one category. Similarly, adaptive cruise are not all made equal (I know you are aware of this). For example, Ioniq hybrid ACC will deactivate below ~10mph, whereas the Ioniq BEV ACC deals with stop-go traffic. But this difference was not made clear. I also had to search high and low for Nissan's 2018 Leaf Intelligent CC (when didn't buy ProPilot package) to find out whether it can handle stop-go traffic.

Let's put it this way for Tesla:
- 2500 cars delivered in 4 years by 2012 (Roadster)
- 4000 cars built every month by 2016 (S and X)
- over 7000 cars built every week by 2018 (all 3 models)
Which other car manufacturer have managed such an impressive ramp within 10 years of existing?
It's no surprise they are always on the verge of bankruptcy, because they are pushing the boundary, unlike traditional manufacturers.

 

[Mr Bump]

Tesla are putting every other car maker to shame, whether they succeed in domination is not relevant any more, they have proved the technology is not made up science fiction as a lot of people here would like it to be.

 

[nilagin]

You are the one struggling here. Let's put it in simple terms, there are 3 levels of lane assist: passive lane departure warning, active lane keep assist, active lane centering. How can it be so hard to understand that?
You can't just lump all lane assistive technology into one category. Similarly, adaptive cruise are not all made equal (I know you are aware of this). For example, Ioniq hybrid ACC will deactivate below ~10mph, whereas the Ioniq BEV ACC deals with stop-go traffic. But this difference was not made clear. I also had to search high and low for Nissan's 2018 Leaf Intelligent CC (when didn't buy ProPilot package) to find out whether it can handle stop-go traffic.

Let's put it this way for Tesla:
- 2500 cars delivered in 4 years by 2012 (Roadster)
- 4000 cars built every month by 2016 (S and X)
- over 7000 cars built every week by 2018 (all 3 models)
Which other car manufacturer have managed such an impressive ramp within 10 years of existing?
It's no surprise they are always on the verge of bankruptcy, because they are pushing the boundary, unlike traditional manufacturers.

How am I the one struggling? There is no lumping of the 3 systems together. You obviously believe it all works by magic. For the Lane keeping and centering system to work they will need something like the Lane warning system to actually detect the car has wandered out of lane in the first place. Instead of giving just an audible warning to alert the driver, it activates other systems within the car to steer it back within or keep within the lines.
Tesla would have had a basic knowledge and understanding of manufacturing cars from the 4yrs of manufacturing the Roadster. Not mass production levels but a start. Then the Model S went into production, very slowly they managed to ramp up production to an almost acceptable level, you could almost call it mass production. Then they introduced the Model X. Once again they struggled to build cars, you'd think they had no experience of how to build cars. Slowly production ramps up. Then came the Model 3 and history repeats itself all over again. You have a very slim argument in the case of the Model X but to still have trouble come the third car which was in production for almost 10 months before they actually started producing cars in anywhere near a decent number can only be described as pathetic. Let's face it Ford did the hard work for them in 1913 when they introduced the first moving production line and that would be 10yrs after they first started building cars.

Most manufacturers can introduce a new model to a plant and be running at full production within a couple of months, not struggling for almost a year and still unable to meet production capacity or targets.

 

[nilagin]

Tesla are putting every other car maker to shame, whether they succeed in domination is not relevant any more, they have proved the technology is not made up science fiction as a lot of people here would like it to be.

Why haven't you bought one then? You can afford it.

 

[wyx087]

How am I the one struggling? There is no lumping of the 3 systems together. You obviously believe it all works by magic. For the Lane keeping and centering system to work they will need something like the Lane warning system to actually detect the car has wandered out of lane in the first place. Instead of giving just an audible warning to alert the driver, it activates other systems within the car to steer it back within or keep within the lines.

You first said other manufacturers had lane assistant for years (possibly referring to passive lane departure warning?)

It's autopilot is pretty a combination of different elements that other manufacturers have had for years.

I pointed out lane centring like Autopilot only became available in recent years. You stated A6 had lane keeping, which is a very bad system that bounces you within the lines, totally different to lane centering capability of Autopilot/ProPilot cars.

2013 Audi A6 has lane keeping.

So now you are going back on your previous statements by saying there is no misunderstanding from your, that you had never lumped the 3 different system with 3 very different capability together.

Now you goes on to state lane centering system will only need "something like lane departure warning". The departure warning only needs door mirrors to look at white lines, zero sensor fusion. Lane centering must predict where the road goes and centers the car as the road curves. Door mirror based system cannot predict road curvature.

Tesla would have had a basic knowledge and understanding of manufacturing cars from the 4yrs of manufacturing the Roadster. Not mass production levels but a start. Then the Model S went into production, very slowly they managed to ramp up production to an almost acceptable level, you could almost call it mass production. Then they introduced the Model X. Once again they struggled to build cars, you'd think they had no experience of how to build cars. Slowly production ramps up. Then came the Model 3 and history repeats itself all over again. You have a very slim argument in the case of the Model X but to still have trouble come the third car which was in production for almost 10 months before they actually started producing cars in anywhere near a decent number can only be described as pathetic.

Most manufacturers can introduce a new model to a plant and be running at full production within a couple of months, not struggling for almost a year and still unable to meet production capacity or targets.

Most manufacturers have a decade of experience to draw upon, processes in place and re-use proven tooling. Most manufacturers introduce a new model that is usually an incremental change to their previous vehicle.

Model S and X are mostly aluminium. 3 is mostly steel.
S and X numbers are 4000-5000 in one month. Production goal for 3 was 5000 in a week, over 4 fold increase with very little previous experience. That's two major hurdles noted by an outsider the 3 production ramp needs to overcome.

You'd think an established manufacturer like Ford could do a car like Model 3 quicker and cheaper. Considering Model 3 had almost half a million reservations, it is still in high demand, why wouldn't other manufacturers offer this choice? Why would those who do offer choices still limit their production (eg. e-Niro, Kona, Ioniq)? My money is on the fear of destroying their established ICE business, as I said, car industry are all fast followers, no one is really pushing the envelope unless they have to. If there were no legislation, the polluting engines from 30 years ago would still be offered as budget choice.

 

[nilagin]

You first said other manufacturers had lane assistant for years (possibly referring to passive lane departure warning?)

I pointed out lane centring like Autopilot only became available in recent years. You stated A6 had lane keeping, which is a very bad system that bounces you within the lines, totally different to lane centering capability of Autopilot/ProPilot cars.

So now you are going back on your previous statements by saying there is no misunderstanding from your, that you had never lumped the 3 different system with 3 very different capability together.

Now you goes on to state lane centering system will only need "something like lane departure warning". The departure warning only needs door mirrors to look at white lines, zero sensor fusion. Lane centering must predict where the road goes and centers the car as the road curves. Door mirror based system cannot predict road curvature.


Most manufacturers have a decade of experience to draw upon, processes in place and re-use proven tooling. Most manufacturers introduce a new model that is usually an incremental change to their previous vehicle.

Model S and X are mostly aluminium. 3 is mostly steel.
S and X numbers are 4000-5000 in one month. Production goal for 3 was 5000 in a week, over 4 fold increase with very little previous experience. That's two major hurdles noted by an outsider the 3 production ramp needs to overcome.

You'd think an established manufacturer like Ford could do a car like Model 3 quicker and cheaper. Considering Model 3 had almost half a million reservations, it is still in high demand, why wouldn't other manufacturers offer this choice? Why would those who do offer choices still limit their production (eg. e-Niro, Kona, Ioniq)? My money is on the fear of destroying their established ICE business, as I said, car industry are all fast followers, no one is really pushing the envelope unless they have to. If there were no legislation, the polluting engines from 30 years ago would still be offered as budget choice.

I haven't back tracked at all, it is all down to your lack of comprehension. Not that it matters as it is still an unnecessary function as drivers should be steering the car anyway not relying the car to do it for them.
Doesn't matter whether a car is made of aluminium or steel. Other car manufacturers manage to build both. The only difference being aluminium cars are bonded and welded, steel cars are just welded.
You still keep ignoring the fact that lack of interest in buying EV cars has meant manufacturers haven't really bothered to go into mass production. It doesn't mean they haven't been working on the options in the background whilst actually building and selling cars that the majority of buyers can afford.
Last year Ford produced over 6.6 million cars a small percentage of which were electric or hybrid.
You know nothing about engines if you think manufacturers would still be offering 30 year old engine technology if it wasn't for emissions regulations.
Engines have moved on a lot in terms of performance in 30yrs even N/A engines produce more power from a smaller capacity than was possible 30yrs ago.

 

[wyx087]

I haven't back tracked at all, it is all down to your lack of comprehension. Not that it matters as it is still an unnecessary function as drivers should be steering the car anyway not relying the car to do it for them.
Doesn't matter whether a car is made of aluminium or steel. Other car manufacturers manage to build both. The only difference being aluminium cars are bonded and welded, steel cars are just welded.
You still keep ignoring the fact that lack of interest in buying EV cars has meant manufacturers haven't really bothered to go into mass production. It doesn't mean they haven't been working on the options in the background whilst actually building and selling cars that the majority of buyers can afford.
Last year Ford produced over 6.6 million cars a small percentage of which were electric or hybrid.
You know nothing about engines if you think manufacturers would still be offering 30 year old engine technology if it wasn't for emissions regulations.
Engines have moved on a lot in terms of performance in 30yrs even N/A engines produce more power from a smaller capacity than was possible 30yrs ago.

Let's write a statement about a forum member and doesn't back up with any evidence, despite evidence have shown you don't understand difference in lane assist technology and continue to be ignorant despite the differences have been pointed out. But if you say it doesn't matter, then let's move on.

I'll put my hands up and say I don't understand engines like you do, and I don't understand how car manufacturers work beyond public knowledge.

But it IS public knowledge that car manufacturers regularly lobby for less strict emission standards, also asking for EV incentives to be taken away. All while the fossil fuel industry receive huge amount of incentives. It seems the reason is that public want the same old ICE as before (according to a Ford employee)

Now consider the two following photos, taken 13 years apart. What would the average man say when you ask whether you want a horse or a car in 1900?

Now in 2019, what does the average Joe say when asked whether they want an ICE car or EV?

 

[nilagin]

Let's write a statement about a forum member and doesn't back up with any evidence, despite evidence have shown you don't understand difference in lane assist technology and continue to be ignorant despite the differences have been pointed out. But if you say it doesn't matter, then let's move on.

I'll put my hands up and say I don't understand engines like you do, and I don't understand how car manufacturers work beyond public knowledge.

But it IS public knowledge that car manufacturers regularly lobby for less strict emission standards, also asking for EV incentives to be taken away. All while the fossil fuel industry receive huge amount of incentives. It seems the reason is that public want the same old ICE as before (according to a Ford employee)

Now consider the two following photos, taken 13 years apart. What would the average man say when you ask whether you want a horse or a car in 1900?

Now in 2019, what does the average Joe say when asked whether they want an ICE car or EV?

Very few manufacturers come up with the same approach to car systems unless it is shared technology. Hence why they work differently and some work better than others. Regardless of how Tesla cars read the road or lanes it needs to follow it still uses a combination of other systems that cars already have had for years previously for it to actually steer and control the car. Tesla's systems won't likely be exactly the same but they are based on those that cars had previously.
If fossil fuels are receiving more incentives etc compared to renewable energy sources, perhaps it is because there is more demand for fossil fuels than renewable energies.
In 1900 (14yrs after the very first car) a car would have cost $1000, probably a good reason why not many people could afford one. By 1908 when the Model T went into production you could buy one for $850, by 1924 you could buy a new Model T for $295.
In 2019 the average Joe will be asking for an ICE powered car as is evident by car sales.
Car manufacturers have to lobby for less restrictive emissions regulations because the people who impose them are pretty much clueless on how or whether it is achievable especially in the timescales they come up with as well as expense.
A lot of the WLTP compliant diesel cars produce very little CO2 and next to no NOX.

 

[neil_g]

I hate the late correction on my Skud, feels so unnatural for the steering wheel to kick back. First thing that got turned off.

they have proved the technology is not made up science fiction as a lot of people here would like it to be.

Who said that? I think everyone in here agrees that electric or, me personally, hydrogen will, ultimately be a good thing. However in its current form its not practical for everyone and actually that some of the modern diesels really aren't that polluting.

 

[nilagin]

Luckily, there are new manufacturers. We are no longer locked in by complexity of ICE, new manufacturers now have lower barrier to entry. The fastest road car is an electric: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47418405

In terms of outright speed and accelerating up to anywhere near that speed, yes it will be the fastest road car. But in terms of 0-62mph (0-100km/h) which is the standard to which road cars are measured. That article says under 2 seconds, question is, how much under 2 seconds? An unrestricted 600bhp Fiesta WRC car can do it in 1.6 seconds. All WRC cars are road legal and you could buy 3 maybe even 4 of them for the price of that one electric car.

 

[Nod]

Shows what cheap crap Fords are!

 

[nilagin]

Shows what cheap crap Fords are!

Good value for money
In terms of top speed the Koenigsegg Jesko, which has been unveiled today is the fastest road car with a top speed of 300mph.

 

[broc]

'Supercar' performance from an EV must surely be unsustainable for any length of time, flooring it must hammer the batteries & severely limit range somewhat?

Also, while I agree with neil_g that EVs or possibly hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles are desirable, the manufacturers have yet to deliver the choice (style) of non ICE vehicles people might want?

Personally I would be looking for something rated as being capable of pulling a 1700kg caravan for 300-400 miles to replace our diesel 4x4 or a small convertible 'fun' car to replace our other car, a Mini convertible. As far as I can see, neither vehicle exists yet?