Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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Sw33ty said:
A Nissan Leaf isn't going to match that of my Mondeo in any way as you can't tow a caravan with one
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Well there is a plus for electric cars straight off (y)
:D
 
wuyanxu said:
Exactly, everything seems to be moving towards economy. Which are smaller and smaller engines with bigger and bigger turbo that lags more and more. Plus more and more economical gearing for lower engine RPM when driving, which in turn means always needing to wait for the gearbox.

You can't take a performance turned, expensive engine and talk about it like it is fitted as standard in all cars. Eg. most of the Fiesta sold won't have the special turbo
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Smaller capacity engines won't have a larger turbo if you are after economy.
The Fiesta 1.0 3 cylinder engine has a small low friction turbo. The engine produces it's maximum torque from 1400rpm and remains constant through to around 5000rpm before it starts to drop off.
 
nilagin said:
Smaller capacity engines won't have a larger turbo if you are after economy.
The Fiesta 1.0 3 cylinder engine has a small low friction turbo. The engine produces it's maximum torque from 1400rpm and remains constant through to around 5000rpm before it starts to drop off.
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With an automatic box, where does what engine RPM does the car sit at when driving at constant 30mph on a flat road?

It's more likely to be below 1400rpm for maximum fuel economy, where the moment you prod the throttle, you'll be waiting for the gearbox.

Sw33ty said:
If a car is driven correctly & is serviced well it won't put out a higher level of carbon as the engine gets older & I basically have no turbo lag on my Mondeo with it's 6 speed auto box. As for torque A Nissan Leaf isn't going to match that of my Mondeo in any way as you can't tow a caravan with one as the batteries would be dead in no time & tbh it would probably struggle like mad on any sort of steep hill. You mention the performance of the Leaf well i've had people try & race me in them & the outcome was they didn't do well:LOL:
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Conversely, I've had people driving all kind of cars trying to jump the queue at traffic lights by using the turning lane, the little Leaf (a first generation EV) never had problem gaining the car length initial advantage.

Obviously you need to drive an EV to understand instant torque feel. I've driven the Leaf on steepest roads in Bristol (where my two diesel dropped down gears and make loud sound), the little Leaf just got on climbing without worry in the world. Controlling its speed perfectly and smoothly like on a normal flat road.

Yes, towing is one thing cheap EV's like Nissan Leaf can't do, due to the increased load put on the battery. But large SUV styled EV's can do this no problem, like the Tesla Model X and Audi E-tron.
 
wuyanxu said:
Conversely, I've had people driving all kind of cars trying to jump the queue at traffic lights by using the turning lane, the little Leaf (a first generation EV) never had problem gaining the car length initial advantage.

Obviously you need to drive an EV to understand instant torque feel. I've driven the Leaf on steepest roads in Bristol (where my two diesel dropped down gears and make loud sound), the little Leaf just got on climbing without worry in the world. Controlling its speed perfectly and smoothly like on a normal flat road.

Yes, towing is one thing cheap EV's like Nissan Leaf can't do, due to the increased load put on the battery. But large SUV styled EV's can do this no problem, like the Tesla Model X and Audi E-tron.
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I for one don't have the huge amount of money to buy an electric suv to tow my caravan but even if I did they just can't cover the distances I need, it's just over a 300 mile round trip to go & see the Granddaughter & a nice 900 miles round trip to see the inlaws not something you can really do with an electric car as I would have to spend hours recharging the battery & another interest of mine is car audio again something else you can't do with an electric car as the current draw from an amp or multiple amps would flatten the batteries in no time. Electric cars may seem great to a lot but the batteries aren't cheap to replace & that is going to catch a lot of people out in time as the replacement batteries could easily cost more than the car is worth. I personally will drive a car with a conventional combustion engine for long as it's possible
 
wuyanxu said:
With an automatic box, where does what engine RPM does the car sit at when driving at constant 30mph on a flat road?

It's more likely to be below 1400rpm for maximum fuel economy, where the moment you prod the throttle, you'll be waiting for the gearbox.


Conversely, I've had people driving all kind of cars trying to jump the queue at traffic lights by using the turning lane, the little Leaf (a first generation EV) never had problem gaining the car length initial advantage.
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No idea what the engine speed would be at 30mph in an automatic. I don't drive an automatic. If I did I would use it as a manual and wouldn't have to wait for the gearbox.
As for traffic light grand prix, I don't need to use the launch control nor full throttle to get more than a cars length ahead with my car. My sister-in-law drives a 1st gen Leaf, she thought it was quick until I took her for a drive in my car, frightened the life out of her. ;)
 
nilagin said:
took her for a drive in my car, frightened the life out of her. ;)
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The way most of those chavwagons are driven, I'm not surprised! ;)
 
my 2.2 diesel civic has more torque than a leaf :)
so does my wifes bmw 220d xdrive which in sports mode takes off like a scolded cat which is surprising for such a big vehicle and quite satisfying when doing the light to light GP sprint :)
there's zero turbo lag too

on a more serious note the only advantage apart from the greener aspects of owning an EV is cost per mile, i can't think of anything else
 
cosmicma said:
on a more serious note the only advantage apart from the greener aspects of owning an EV is cost per mile, i can't think of anything else
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I've seen somewhere a worst case scenario where a Leaf can cost 4p/mile. The A150 auto ours replaced was doing around 25-30 MPG so at £1.20/litre and rounding up to 4.5l/gallon as well as taking the best case 30 MPG, that was 18p/mile. Best case is 0p by charging at one of the free points (we have 6 at our local Sainsbury's). Another fairly large advantage is zero exhaust emissions at point of use.
 
wuyanxu said:
I own a Skoda with DSG gearbox and had owned Mercedes slushbox, similar incarnation of which went into SLR supercar. The DSG is okay, but in the above use-case, it would have needed to drop down 2 gears and that is asking for a major disappointment.
How old is your Skoda, I did say a modern car.
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ancient_mariner said:
I work with Leaf and Zoe owners, and at times the smugness of the Leaf owner, make one wish to set about their head with a blunt instrument.
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to be honest iv'e been looking into buying an ev car quite seriously over the last 6 months or so to replace the civic.
i was looking at the Zoe because they can be had quite cheap but the battery rental put me off and it's about another 4 grand if you want one with the battery bought outright which then puts you into leaf territory price wise which to me is a better car but in my opinion to use either of those 2 vehicles without getting a bit of range anxiety isn't gonna happen for me

the next car iv'e looked at is the BMW I3 with the range extender which would suite the purpose but it means keeping the civic for another couple of years to save the money so i can afford one about 3/4 years old ( 2017/18 model by the time i can afford one ) and that's what i'm in the middle of doing now,
by 2021 if all goes well i will be in a position to get one or at least have enough money to make a decision if something better suited at the same kind of money turns up

dunno what were going to do about the wife's car in a couple of years we will have to see whats what, we still need a 7 seater vehicle of one description or another
 
cosmicma said:
to be honest iv'e been looking into buying an ev car quite seriously over the last 6 months or so to replace the civic.
i was looking at the Zoe because they can be had quite cheap but the battery rental put me off and it's about another 4 grand if you want one with the battery bought outright which then puts you into leaf territory price wise which to me is a better car but in my opinion to use either of those 2 vehicles without getting a bit of range anxiety isn't gonna happen for me

the next car iv'e looked at is the BMW I3 with the range extender which would suite the purpose but it means keeping the civic for another couple of years to save the money so i can afford one about 3/4 years old ( 2017/18 model by the time i can afford one ) and that's what i'm in the middle of doing now,
by 2021 if all goes well i will be in a position to get one or at least have enough money to make a decision if something better suited at the same kind of money turns up

dunno what were going to do about the wife's car in a couple of years we will have to see whats what, we still need a 7 seater vehicle of one description or another
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The Zoe is probably 3 years old, and a bit crap according to the driver for actual driving. Leaf appears better.
 
@cosmicma

Zoes are cheap and squeaky. The 40 sized battery ones are easier to find battery owned. You can find them near battery lease prices from dopey sellers if you're lucky :)

There's a lot of new EVs coming out in 2020. MG are doing one. They offer a 7 year warranty. There's also the new Kia Soul EV with the 64kWh battery.

The i3 Rex has issues with the Rex and you'd need an extended warranty on the car as they can throw big bills. They're quite a small car and the electric only range isn't that great compared to the competition. Even on the latest i3, it's only a 40 odd kWh battery and they've had to drop the Rex.

Zoe warranty is £300 odd a year from when it runs out. 3 years on 2018 cars on and at 4 years from earlier cars.

There's also the Hyundai Ioniq. It has a small battery compared to many other cars but it is very efficient and charges quickly so you make up a lot of time off less efficient cars. They're worth looking at too. It also has a standard 5 year warranty so you get 2 years longer than the BMW and there doesn't seem to be much that goes wrong with them.

There are no affordable people carriers apart from the Nissan ENV thing which has a lot of seats. https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/e-nv200-combi.html It's less than half the cost of a Tesla.
 
srichards said:
@cosmicma

Zoes are cheap and squeaky. The 40 sized battery ones are easier to find battery owned. You can find them near battery lease prices from dopey sellers if you're lucky :)

There's a lot of new EVs coming out in 2020. MG are doing one. They offer a 7 year warranty. There's also the new Kia Soul EV with the 64kWh battery.

The i3 Rex has issues with the Rex and you'd need an extended warranty on the car as they can throw big bills. They're quite a small car and the electric only range isn't that great compared to the competition. Even on the latest i3, it's only a 40 odd kWh battery and they've had to drop the Rex.

Zoe warranty is £300 odd a year from when it runs out. 3 years on 2018 cars on and at 4 years from earlier cars.

There's also the Hyundai Ioniq. It has a small battery compared to many other cars but it is very efficient and charges quickly so you make up a lot of time off less efficient cars. They're worth looking at too. It also has a standard 5 year warranty so you get 2 years longer than the BMW and there doesn't seem to be much that goes wrong with them.

There are no affordable people carriers apart from the Nissan ENV thing which has a lot of seats. https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/e-nv200-combi.html It's less than half the cost of a Tesla.
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thanks for the reply

iv'e gone off the zoe to be honest the more i look into them the less i like about them

iv'e got a couple of years to make a decision but i do have a limited budget i will be buying a vehicle outright
the range extender is the bit that attracts me to the I3 but iv'e got time and i can do some research into what goes wrong with them before i commit so to speak

i know there's quite a few new EV's hitting the market over the next year or so but i think they will be out of my price range when the time comes to buy one and as far as the 7 seater goes we will just have to see whats what when the time comes
 
cosmicma said:
i was looking at the Zoe because they can be had quite cheap but the battery rental put me off and it's about another 4 grand if you want one with the battery bought outright which then puts you into leaf territory price wise which to me is a better car but in my opinion to use either of those 2 vehicles without getting a bit of range anxiety isn't gonna happen for me
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When we were looking for a replacement for the A class, we looked at a couple of hybrids but decided against them because they would have needed to be run of ICE for a few minutes before switching to electric and that would have negated the environmental benefits that we were after. Next was the Zoe which we could only find as a battery lease (2nd hand) which was almost as expensive as the fuel costs for the A class. A local garage had 3 leafs with owned batteries at decent prices so we ended up with one of them. Reported range is just under 80 miles from 100% charge which is plenty for our needs. 12 months on and we're still waiting for the bill for the charge point we had fitted!

I suffer more range anxiety on one of the bikes - it has about 100 miles range from full and when the hungry light comes on, I have about 20 miles left... Got stuck in unfilterable traffic and managed to get 8.7 litres in - the tank capacity is 9.1 litres.
 
Nod said:
I suffer more range anxiety on one of the bikes - it has about 100 miles range from full and when the hungry light comes on, I have about 20 miles left... Got stuck in unfilterable traffic and managed to get 8.7 litres in - the tank capacity is 9.1 litres.
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Get yerself a Gt1050 range about 200 odd, it is like driving a Transit though :)
 
The Speedmaster has a much bigger tank if I want/need to go further in one hit, as does the T100. The Bobber's more fun though! Great as the Rocket III was, it was a bit like driving a hot rodded artic!!!
 
MatBin said:
How old is your Skoda, I did say a modern car.
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Just one year older than the Leaf, Octavia mk3 pre-bumper change (world's tiniest facelift change), 2.0L diesel with the more reliable wet-clutch DSG. Same combination is still being sold today, albeit with updated exhaust system for regulation. Hopefully that is modern enough for you.

We originally had a Mercedes C220 coupe and Fiat Panda. The Panda was sold due to unreliable automated-manual gearbox and wife have passed driving test, but don't like to drive it. A year later, we decided to start a family, so I bought the Skoda. Wife wasn't happy with baby seats in the coupe, so I looked into replacing it. To avoid the gearbox problem, I looked up the most reliable automatic gearbox for town driving, a Toyota hybrid. Auris or Yaris hybrid cost the same as Nissan Leaf, but Leaf had much MUCH cheaper running cost. So we bought the EV and enjoyed all its benefit ever since: cheap running cost, ease of recharging, excellent performance, superb silent refinement and little depreciation. All were discovered after living with the EV.

In 2000's, I laughed at Toyota hybrids, loved diesel torque and changing gears. I thought EV was a joke. Tesla changed my perception and Nissan Leaf made living with one so affordable and easy. The longer I live with EV, the more I prefer them.

Sw33ty said:
I for one don't have the huge amount of money to buy an electric suv to tow my caravan but even if I did they just can't cover the distances I need, it's just over a 300 mile round trip to go & see the Granddaughter & a nice 900 miles round trip to see the inlaws not something you can really do with an electric car as I would have to spend hours recharging the battery & another interest of mine is car audio again something else you can't do with an electric car as the current draw from an amp or multiple amps would flatten the batteries in no time. Electric cars may seem great to a lot but the batteries aren't cheap to replace & that is going to catch a lot of people out in time as the replacement batteries could easily cost more than the car is worth. I personally will drive a car with a conventional combustion engine for long as it's possible
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Depending on the car, typically recharging mid-journey takes 30min, just enough time to do a quick leg stretch, use facilities and some snack. So you are safe to continue your journey refreshed.

Power draw from main motor at constant highway speed is 10-20kW, power draw from other systems excluding heater is 0.2-0.7kW. This is in a Leaf Tekna with upgraded audio. So at worst, you'd be looking at 10% range reduction. Hardly "flatten the battery in no time".

Battery is expected to last the life of the car, most manufacturer give 8 years warranty on them. My 5 year old Leaf still have close to 90% of its original battery capacity. There are taxi Leaf's driven over 150k with not much battery degradation. Tesla and newer EV's look after the battery better than Leaf's, so should have less degradation and no problem lasting beyond life of the car. (can be re-used as stationary battery when the car goes to scrapyard)

Sure, driving 900 miles while towing is not a good use-case for current generation of EV's, but you also have to remember you don't do that everyday. End of the day, it's your personal choice, no one can make you buy one type of car or another. But please don't spread false information based on your outdated assumptions.
 
wuyanxu said:
Just one year older than the Leaf, . My 5 year old Leaf.

Sure, driving 900 miles while towing is not a good use-case for current generation of EV's, but you also have to remember you don't do that everyday. End of the day, it's your personal choice, no one can make you buy one type of car or another..
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So, quite an old car by modern standards (the Skoda). Despite diesel being vilified some manufacturers are still advancing the design, you may be surprised at how refined and responsive newer diesels are, but your second sentence above is probably the best post you have put up to date :)
 
MatBin said:
So, quite an old car by modern standards (the Skoda). Despite diesel being vilified some manufacturers are still advancing the design, you may be surprised at how refined and responsive newer diesels are, but your second sentence above is probably the best post you have put up to date :)
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The latest VAG cars still get the same EA288 engine with a slightly tweaked exhaust system. Not much would change in engine characteristics from this engine compared to my '63 reg. Either way, the ICE I currently have is very polluting for local environment so I only drive it on long trips. There is no way the current diesel car you own can magically produce 50% of original tailpipe emission in 10 years time (unless you spend £££ to retrofit emission equipment). Whereas EV has the potential to produce a lot less "long-tailpipe" emission thanks to the grid moving to more and more cheap renewable energy.

This is an important point, ICE cars is a fixed entity, you don't have much influence on its emission, you can only buy newer cars. All EV emissions reduce overtime as the grid moves towards renewables. Older EV get the same benefit and don't get left behind, older EV owners don't have to spend £££ to keep up.

I'm just here to right the wrong assumptions and disprove myths with EV :) when have I ever said EV is for everyone? when have I told people to buy EV outright? My advice has always been: consider your driving profile and see if EV suits you, never dismiss idea of EV just because of old assumptions.; there are many benefits to switching to EV, being green doesn't have to be one.
 
One thing that has to be taken into consideration is the environmental impact of the mining of the materials to make EV batteries
It’s the reason why I wouldn’t buy one
 
wuyanxu said:
The latest VAG cars still get the same EA288 engine with a slightly tweaked exhaust system. Not much would change in engine characteristics from this engine compared to my '63 reg.
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There is a lot more to it than just a tweaked exhaust system. If it was that easy, why were so many cars removed from sale because they didn't meet WLTP emissions? Why were some cars derated on power as a result?
 
wuyanxu said:
With an automatic box, where does what engine RPM does the car sit at when driving at constant 30mph on a flat road?

It's more likely to be below 1400rpm for maximum fuel economy, where the moment you prod the throttle, you'll be waiting for the gearbox.
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I checked mine and it sits at exactly 1250rpm at 30mph. But yes there is a slight lag if I slam my foot to the floor but if I just do a firm progressive push it's pretty immediate, probably thanks to having plenty of torque at low revs.

Certainly not the same instant torque as the i3 I drove, but then its torque did fall off fairly quickly whereas mine is relentless pretty much all the way towards jail.
 
LCPete said:
One thing that has to be taken into consideration is the environmental impact of the mining of the materials to make EV batteries
It’s the reason why I wouldn’t buy one
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This is one area that is as clear as mud. I have no clear, well referenced answer to this.
But do remember EV is a fledgling industry, its supply chains are not yet well established to handle the demand, so we see questionable practices down the supply chain.

nilagin said:
There is a lot more to it than just a tweaked exhaust system. If it was that easy, why were so many cars removed from sale because they didn't meet WLTP emissions? Why were some cars derated on power as a result?
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But the statement was that newer engines get more "refined" and more "responsive". Does the changes to meet stricter emission requirements make older (possibly de-rated) engine run more refined and produce sharper throttle response?

nilagin said:
Tesla and Panasonic freeze planned expansion of gigafactory due to concerns over falling demand.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...HEAQ&usg=AOvVaw186PGoRCfpTEvQMR3H7Kbx&ampcf=1
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Nikkei is generally a respected publication and they do seem to often have good sources, especially in the Asian business world and specifically in Japan, where Panasonic is based.
But in this case, they don’t even cite sources and state everything as a matter of fact.
Normally, when you are introducing new information, you cite sources even if those sources are anonymous. They didn’t do that here for some unknown reason.

Also, the report states that Panasonic is suspending a planned investment in Gigafactory 3 in Shanghai, but we didn’t even know that they planned to invest in Gigafactory 3.
Tesla has yet to announce any partner for Gigafactory 3 and they indicated that they would first focus on vehicle production and they will source cells from outside manufacturers at first.
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https://electrek.co/2019/04/11/tesla-panasonic-suspend-investments-gigafactory-expansion-report/
It's all speculations and shorting the stock to make short term profits. Unless a real change is seen on their quarterly report, no one outside of the company knows for sure what is happening.
 
wuyanxu said:
But the statement was that newer engines get more "refined" and more "responsive". Does the changes to meet stricter emission requirements make older (possibly de-rated) engine run more refined and produce sharper throttle response?



https://electrek.co/2019/04/11/tesla-panasonic-suspend-investments-gigafactory-expansion-report/
It's all speculations and shorting the stock to make short term profits. Unless a real change is seen on their quarterly report, no one outside of the company knows for sure what is happening.
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I can't speak for other manufacturers but engines receive tweaks throughout their production run. Emissions control generally make engines work harder or they are derated to meet the emissions. The engine calibration needs to be reworked to meet the new demands. This is why so many people who have had their VAG cars "fixed" since the diesel scandal have reported poorer performance and increased fuel consumption. Some people have experienced far worse.

Automotive experts had predicted a downturn in demand for Tesla cars in the 1st quarter of 2019. They gave a figure of around 15k less than the figure Musk had predicted, I saw some figures a week or so ago that were in the region of 20k less than Musks prediction.
Musk has been playing a lot of games of late trying to raise capitol from investors and trying to turn a profit.
 
wuyanxu said:
"Hold on tight, EV is coming. Let's all buy our highly profitable, expensive to run and polluting cars in the meantime, because we didn't invest in EV early enough to produce in volume yet."
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What has any of that got to do with better and enviromentally friendly batteries than most Ev's are currently using?
I notice you are still harping on about car manufacturers not investing in EV early enough, ignoring the fact that they actually have been investing in it. It is just that the market hasn't really existed until now due to the inadequacies in range.
 
I can't imagine that electric car sales will really take off until the "refueling" problem is addressed for cars that are parked on the street. One estimate I've seen is that 40% of UK houses have no off-street parking. Given the number of such houses which contain multiple adults this could mean that as much as 60% of cars are parked on street. There are various theories about how this can be addressed but none seem to have found favour with the people who would have to implement them: local authorities and the power companies.
 
It's a slightly vicious circle. Councils and power companies use the lack of demand as an excuse not to provide charge points and the lack of charge points cuts the 40-60% of cars without off street parking out of the EV market, reducing the demand. Lob in the ICE car drivers who ignore the EV charging only signs where chargers DO exist and the problem intensifies.
 
Nod said:
It's a slightly vicious circle. Councils and power companies use the lack of demand as an excuse not to provide charge points and the lack of charge points cuts the 40-60% of cars without off street parking out of the EV market, reducing the demand. Lob in the ICE car drivers who ignore the EV charging only signs where chargers DO exist and the problem intensifies.
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Don't forget the EV owners who also ignore the ev charging only signs and think they have reserved parking.
 
nilagin said:
What has any of that got to do with better and enviromentally friendly batteries than most Ev's are currently using?
I notice you are still harping on about car manufacturers not investing in EV early enough, ignoring the fact that they actually have been investing in it. It is just that the market hasn't really existed until now due to the inadequacies in range.
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How many Ford EV has been sold up until now in UK?
You are still harping on about the market doesn't exist, yet the strong demand have propped up used short-range EV prices, they are simply not dropping! Go on Autotrader, find affordable older second hand EV, what choices are there?

As a mass market car company, it's only okay to say "we've been investing in EV" if you have products that are available to buy. You can't say "we've been investing 2 billion in new clean technology" when you have invested over ten times more on polluting tech, and all you've got to show for it is a very limited production to get the carbon regulators off your back.

It's like a wood chopper chopping down trees, when being asked about deforestation, the wood chopper only plants 3 trees to be used as reference whenever anyone asks about deforestation.
 
wuyanxu said:
How many Ford EV has been sold up until now in UK?
You are still harping on about the market doesn't exist, yet the strong demand have propped up used short-range EV prices, they are simply not dropping! Go on Autotrader, find affordable older second hand EV, what choices are there?

As a mass market car company, it's only okay to say "we've been investing in EV" if you have products that are available to buy. You can't say "we've been investing 2 billion in new clean technology" when you have invested over ten times more on polluting tech, and all you've got to show for it is a very limited production to get the carbon regulators off your back.

It's like a wood chopper chopping down trees, when being asked about deforestation, the wood chopper only plants 3 trees to be used as reference whenever anyone asks about deforestation.
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It's only in the last few months that ev used prices have started to stabilise and hold. Prior to that non prestige models have been among the worst depreciating cars.
As for the number of EV cars Ford have sold in the UK, we have already covered that and why they withdrew their last EV.
Most ice car manufacturers don't need EV to lower their carbon footprint because they have enough low carbon ice engines putting them well inside the limit.
Just because Ford and other manufacturers don't sell Ev's in the UK at the present time, it doesn't mean they don't in other countries where demand makes it worthwhile. So manufacturers can say they are investing in EV.
That is why DHL have a fleet of EV Ford Transits in Germany. There is a fleet of EV and hybrid transits on loan to various companies being used in London and other cities. Ford are testing EV Transit minibuses, developing ways of maintaining heat within the vehicle for passenger comfort whilst the doors are opening and closing without using up valuable battery power needed to operate the vehicle throughout the day or night.
Car manufacturers have two options to stay in business. Make a profit from selling cars the majority of people want to buy and can use effectively or in Tesla's case, keep trying to find investors because they can't make a profit.
 
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nilagin said:
Don't forget the EV owners who also ignore the ev charging only signs and think they have reserved parking.
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Not seen that here. There are a couple of spaces that are often taken up all day by a Tesla and a Mitsubishi PHEV but they're both always plugged in. The spaces they take up are in paid car parks where the charge is free once you pay to park.
 
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