Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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Sw33ty said:
There is loads of info out there about the costs & carbon foot prints of making the batteries for EV's so it's not false info, ok you like your Nissan Leaf but in a way you are trying to tell everyone that they should switch over to an EV but there are down sides to them & as a time served mechanic I know first hand how bad the build quality of Nissan's are due to working on them & also from owning 2.
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Carbon footprint of making the battery is indeed higher than making ICE. But over the car's lifetime, carbon footprint of EV has been consistently proven to be lower than ICE cars. There's no denying that lifetime carbon footprint is more important than one small part of a car's life.
wuyanxu said:
Whereas here are the articles (with multiple references in each link) that say EV lifetime carbon emissions is much lower than ICE cars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_aspects_of_the_electric_car
https://www.nextgreencar.com/electric-cars/environmental-benefits/
https://www.eea.europa.eu/signals/signals-2017/infographics/range-of-life-cycle-co2/view
https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions
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Not surprised about Nissan build quality. They are like the worst Japanese brand. Here's an example:
https://www.speakev.com/threads/front-strut-top-bearing-failure.135124/page-2#post-2544120

But it's unrelated to the EV/petrol/diesel discussion, every brand of cars have its random quirks. Tesla Model 3 lets water run into the boot when opened. Mercedes engine had black death problem, VAG waterpump are known to fail, VW DQ200 and Ford dry-clutch gearboxes are known develop problems, etc.
 
My son tried a Model S, he really liked it, but very expensive, perhaps not compared to similar performance vehicles but as a stand alone price it's an expensive car. Still as rich people can avoid income tax perhaps it's a democratising car :)

(He tried the Tesla as part of his job, he cant afford to buy one).
 
wuyanxu said:
Carbon footprint of making the battery is indeed higher than making ICE. But over the car's lifetime, carbon footprint of EV has been consistently proven to be lower than ICE cars. There's no denying that lifetime carbon footprint is more important than one small part of a car's life.



Not surprised about Nissan build quality. They are like the worst Japanese brand. Here's an example:
https://www.speakev.com/threads/front-strut-top-bearing-failure.135124/page-2#post-2544120

But it's unrelated to the EV/petrol/diesel discussion, every brand of cars have its random quirks. Tesla Model 3 lets water run into the boot when opened. Mercedes engine had black death problem, VAG waterpump are known to fail, VW DQ200 and Ford dry-clutch gearboxes are known develop problems, etc.
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And BMW keep their "issues" in-house, my Series 1 had "problems" that weren't generally known, same as with their motorcycles.
 
Quick comparison between EV's (and ICE):
https://www.speakev.com/threads/road-trips-comparing-long-range-evs.138280/

Derby to Ullapool, UK. Just under 500 miles. Charging using UK's current infrastructure, assuming no refuelling in ICE.

ICE 8h04m + 2x20min breaks = 8h44m

Tesla Model 3 LR AWD 8h47m = +3mins
Tesla Model 3 P .......... 9h = +16mins
Tesla Model 3 SR+ ...... 9h22m = +38mins
Tesla Model S 85 ........ 9h30m = +46mins
Tesla Model X 90D ...... 9h43m = +59mins
Hyundai Kona 64 ........ 10h21m = +1h37mins
Kia Niro 64 ................. 10h23m = +1h39mins
Hyundai Ioniq 38 ........ 10h25m = +1h41mins
Jaguar iPace .............. 11h07m = +2h23mins
Nissan Leaf 40 ........... 11h16m = +2h32mins
Audi e-tron .................. 11h49m = +3h6mins

Shows how far ahead Tesla's are with their infrastructure.

Funny how Ioniq with only 38kWh (although current Ioniq are 29kWh, page 2 of thread says 38kWh is soon to be released) is able to travel this distance a lot quicker than 90kWh I-Pace and 95kWh E-tron. Putting bigger and bigger battery in cars is not the answer.
 
nilagin said:
Price of Nissan Leaf increases by almost £2k.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/nissan-leaf-electric-car-price-increased-uk
Nissan claim pcp deals will be cheaper due to increasing residuals. Odd that this increase flies in the face of the EV's actually supposed to be getting cheaper as demand and production increases.
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Production hasn't increased has it? I can't see the source of your statement.
Demand increase....... price increase, seems logical. Where are the other traditional manufacturers' volume electric car to match this high demand in 2019? Ford?


Good development by RAC, although only a stepping stone with their use of slower AC charging due to using ICE as power generator, only giving 28 miles after 1 hour of charging (assuming 7kW, might be slower).
It is possible to have one battery charge another, this is how Tesla superchargers work at 12+ stall locations, using stationary battery. If the recovery vehicle were electric, they can use their battery to directly DC quick charge the other EV, giving them 32 miles within 10min.


Ice cream vans should all be electric. They produce a huge rattle and pump out toxic air just to sit there generate electricity for freezers. Efficiency must be in single digits.
Freezer consumption: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/much-run-freezer-per-month-67647.html
"25 cubic feet will use about 956 kilowatt-hours per year" => 2.62 kWh per 24 hours. So 5kWh of battery is more than enough for multiple freezers over day-time period.
Take a 2014 22kWh e-NV200 for example, 5kWh used to keep the freezer's going, that's still over 15kWh left to drive over 60 miles, more than enough to move the van around local street all day, and to/from home.
Shame the council doesn't distinguish the difference in ice cream van powertrains. If they have an exemption for EV's, sellers would look at ice cream EV's and find they are perfectly suited for their needs.
 
wuyanxu said:
Production hasn't increased has it? I can't see the source of your statement.
Demand increase....... price increase, seems logical. Where are the other traditional manufacturers' volume electric car to match this high demand in 2019? Ford?


Good development by RAC, although only a stepping stone with their use of slower AC charging due to using ICE as power generator, only giving 28 miles after 1 hour of charging (assuming 7kW, might be slower).
It is possible to have one battery charge another, this is how Tesla superchargers work at 12+ stall locations, using stationary battery. If the recovery vehicle were electric, they can use their battery to directly DC quick charge the other EV, giving them 32 miles within 10min.
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I think you mean higher demand not high demand, there is a huge difference.
Car sales are currently decreasing but out of those sales, the number of Ev's has risen so production will have naturally increased. Nissan obviously haven't found a way to make the cars cheaper. I would assume the loss of sales in ice vehicles which actually make a profit has been offset by the EV price increase.
It isn't a natural thing for increased demand and manufacture of cars to mean a price increase unless it is for the reason already mentioned.

Not much point in having an electric rescue vehicle recharging another electric vehicle using it's own battery as it reduces the range and work time of that vehicle and would mean more vehicles would be required.
 
nilagin said:
Not much point in having an electric rescue vehicle recharging another electric vehicle using it's own battery as it reduces the range and work time of that vehicle and would mean more vehicles would be required.
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In comparison having the recovery vehicle stationary for 1 hour doesn't reduce the range and work time of that vehicle?

1 hour attendance to recharge ~28 miles, using diesel while we are at it, 1 hour of engineer not actually doing work.
10min attendance to recharge ~32 miles, reducing charge in recovery vehicle by ~32 miles. Happier customer and recovery vehicle can go recharge for 10min to get over 50miles range if there are 150kW chargers available in UK.

Happier customer, able to attend more customers over same amount of time compared to ICE powered slow chargers I don't see how more vehicles would be required........
 
nilagin said:
Tesla Model 3 UK prices released.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/tesla-model-3-sale-uk-£38900
£38900 for the entry level car isn't exactly affordable for the masses.
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At £10k down and £560pm hire purchase for SR+ with midnight silver paint, I'm quite tempted...... That's up to £4000 I'll have to find somewhere after selling Octavia, then £560pm for 5 years to own the car outright. I'll put over 100k miles on it over 8-10 years before consider selling it, That's £8k on fuel saving alone, 2p per mile compared to 10p per mile for fuel, compared to 50+mpg Skoda diesel. 2p per mile is based on Leaf, we know Model 3 is more efficient.

So with HP interest, it'd cost £43k, but after fuel saving it'd be equivalent to £35k. With potentially high resale value thanks to always updating firmware and the changing public perception towards EV.

Also low maintenance, Tesla now doesn't require regular servicing to be eligible for warranty repairs. I'll just take it to a standard garage for MOT-like checks every year for an hour's fee.

It's comparable to high spec 3-series/C-class. It has the following as standard: vegan-leather seats, huge panoramic roof, heated front seats, Google traffic based sat-nav, adaptive cruise control and active lane centring, keyless system. Many of those are expensive options on other manufacturers.
 
wuyanxu said:
I don't see how more vehicles would be required........
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These are recovery vehicles that also have the towing dolly in the back. Rescue vehicles don't just cover localised areas. Ev's aren't yet capable of providing that sort of service so you would have to rely on specific EV rescue vehicles for that service and due to a more limited range you would need more of them to cover the UK.
 
wuyanxu said:
At £10k down and £560pm hire purchase for SR+ with midnight silver paint, I'm quite tempted......

It's comparable to high spec 3-series/C-class. It has the following as standard: vegan-leather seats, huge panoramic roof, heated front seats, Google traffic based sat-nav, adaptive cruise control and active lane centring, keyless system. Many of those are expensive options on other manufacturers.
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That is a hell of a lot of money for a car with plastic seats.
 
nilagin said:
That is a hell of a lot of money for a car with plastic seats.
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The BMW 320i M sport saloon is on "offer" for HP
Monthly Payments £557.80 over 4 years
Customer Deposit £10,000
APR: 4.9% APR
https://offers.bmw.co.uk/finance-offers/result/?offerCode=e8049984-f129-4381-8072-7b6bfc88268e

Compared to Model 3, it will be a lot more expensive to run. The 2.0l petrol lacks power and slow to accelerate. At that price, hasn't got panoramic glass roof, adaptive cruise control and active lane centring and keyless entry on quick glance.

You were saying?
 
wuyanxu said:
It's comparable to high spec 3-series/C-class. It has the following as standard: vegan-leather seats, huge panoramic roof, heated front seats, Google traffic based sat-nav, adaptive cruise control and active lane centring, keyless system. Many of those are expensive options on other manufacturers.
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Alternatively you could buy a Mondeo Vignale Estate AWD. around £32k with real leather seats as standard. Add heated and cooled front seats with heated rear seats, Blind spot monitoring, road sign recognition, perpendicular and parallel parking assist, panoramic glass roof, adaptive cruise control all for £36132. Or around £34.6k after the dealers have discounted it.
Focus Vignale Estate has pretty much same options apart from cooled front seats or heated rear seats. Doesn't have awd but does have lane assist. That totals around £32.5k before any discount.
 
As mentioned - The Model 3 configurator is now live in the UK https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3
Base price is £38050 which is more than the £30-£35k I was expecting, then Long Range is £47,050 and performance £56,050

Anything but black paint is extra and the self driving thing is a whopping £4900
Not quite the amazing deal we hoped for
 
Byker28i said:
As mentioned - The Model 3 configurator is now live in the UK https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/model3
Base price is £38050 which is more than the £30-£35k I was expecting, then Long Range is £47,050 and performance £56,050

Anything but black paint is extra and the self driving thing is a whopping £4900
Not quite the amazing deal we hoped for
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Start putting a few extras on the base model taking it to £40k will also mean 5yrs of VED too.
 
So wizz through the configurator - those aero wheels look terrible, so long range, speced is £56k (4900 for the self drive or even more if added later)

Tesla say you'll save £9500 on fuel over 5 years assuming 12.5K miles a year
We've assumed a fuel economy of 7.4 miles per litre for a comparable petrol powered car. We've also assumed the national average of £0.16 per kilowatt hour for electricity and £1.31 per litre for premium petrol over the next five years.

£867 /mo to buy... Hum can't see that taking off. What about the lease market?
 
nilagin said:
Alternatively you could buy a Mondeo Vignale Estate AWD. around £32k with real leather seats as standard. Add heated and cooled front seats with heated rear seats, Blind spot monitoring, road sign recognition, perpendicular and parallel parking assist, panoramic glass roof, adaptive cruise control all for £36132. Or around £34.6k after the dealers have discounted it.
Focus Vignale Estate has pretty much same options apart from cooled front seats or heated rear seats. Doesn't have awd but does have lane assist. That totals around £32.5k before any discount.
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Yes, a Ford costing £34600 with £££ in maintenance costs and would cost you over £10,000 to fuel it over 100k miles.
Or a Tesla costing £38900 with hardly any maintenance costs and would cost you ~£2000 to charge over 100k miles. Plus, you get 1500 miles per year free supercharging credit. Also possibility of upgrading it into robotaxi when you are bored with the car and want to buy the latest and greatest.


The £4900 self driving pack is able to:
  • Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from motorway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
  • Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the motorway.
  • Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
  • Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a car park. Really.
Coming later this year:
  • Recognise and respond to traffic lights and stop signs.
  • Automatic driving on city streets.
Autopilot (which is adaptive cruise control and lane centering) comes as standard on all cars.

I personally would not upgrade the wheels. I very much hate how manufacturers bundle large wheels with higher trim. I want all the tech and interior comfort but also best ride comfort and cheaper tyres.
 
All the Model 3s are £40k+ before PICG so they all have the luxury car tax VED applied.
 
Those aero wheel look awful on the configurator, as does the black paint. The red looks good.
Maintenance on the ford would be what £500-600 a year tops

Tesla suggest £9500 saving over 5 years from fuel - so thats £200/month for 250 miles a week commute - that works, but you've then got to factor in the extra £320 a year for having an over 40K car, the £1k for the home power point...
Decent top speed works also 140mph top speed on the basic means you won't be stuck as a mobile traffic jam on the motorway like leaf owners etc all driving at 65mph . 250 mile range is good also.

It's a lot of money to put down over an equivalent ICE car, which might just about work out the same over a 5 year life, the advantage being you don't have large monthly bills due to fuel, but may be left trying to find somewhere to charge it...

So EV car spec is pushing forward, just the infrastructure improvements needed now
 
Byker28i said:
Those aero wheel look awful on the configurator, as does the black paint. The red looks good.
Maintenance on the ford would be what £500-600 a year tops

Tesla suggest £9500 saving over 5 years from fuel - so thats £200/month for 250 miles a week commute - that works, but you've then got to factor in the extra £320 a year for having an over 40K car, the £1k for the home power point...
Decent top speed works also 140mph top speed on the basic means you won't be stuck as a mobile traffic jam on the motorway like leaf owners etc all driving at 65mph . 250 mile range is good also.

It's a lot of money to put down over an equivalent ICE car, which might just about work out the same over a 5 year life, the advantage being you don't have large monthly bills due to fuel, but may be left trying to find somewhere to charge it...

So EV car spec is pushing forward, just the infrastructure improvements needed now
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Having run 2 Ford Focus for over 100K miles each I'm fascinated to know where you get £600/year maintenance, mine was nothing like that (2.0 ltr diesel)

Do Tesla running costs include consumables, such as brake pads, brake fluid, tyres (I doubt they are more than £100/corner) and I wonder how long they last, shall we say 30K miles at £800 for 4, so in 100K we're looking at 3 sets, maybe 4 so about £3000 in it's lifetime (£300/year that seems to have been "forgotten"). Are winter tyres available in the size a Tesla runs, they were for my Focus and weren't expensive. How do they compare insurance wise?
There's just so much more to car running costs that a bit of fuel once a week.
 
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Byker28i said:
the £1k for the home power point...
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How much? We're still waiting for the bill for ours a year after it was fitted but it will be under £200 if/when it comes.
 
Yep, I'm not too sure where the maintenance cost are coming from either. I know that my current BMW diesel car has/is costing £499 for a service pack that covers it for 120k Kilometres (around 74k miles), including MOT's if required, mine will have it's first MOT within the plan. Once I have covered that mileage I have a quote from the dealer that equates to about the same for the following 2 years.

If I drove the 10-12k per year that some here do the servicing would be £100 per year for the first 5 years.............
 
Nod said:
How much? We're still waiting for the bill for ours a year after it was fitted but it will be under £200 if/when it comes.
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The Tesla one is £460 to purchase plus installation by either their approved electricians or your local electrician, the manuals are available. Installation cost will obviously vary per customer and electrician.
 
It was free for us to fit 3.5kW charger, matching our Leaf. We paid £99 to upgrade to 7kW, maximum for single-phase home charger. Far from braking the bank.

MatBin said:
Do Tesla running costs include consumables, such as brake pads, brake fluid, tyres (I doubt they are more than £100/corner) and I wonder how long they last, shall we say 30K miles at £800 for 4, so in 100K we're looking at 3 sets, maybe 4 so about £3000 in it's lifetime (£300/year that seems to have been "forgotten"). Are winter tyres available in the size a Tesla runs, they were for my Focus and weren't expensive. How do they compare insurance wise?
There's just so much more to car running costs that a bit of fuel once a week.
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The Tesla running cost is savings in comparison to petrol/diesel cars. Does your petrol/diesel car not need consumables such as brake pads, brake fluid, tyres?

As I said, there's no servicing requirement to claim under warranty. There is also no maintenance required on the electric powertrain, no engine oil, no filters, etc. So you could just do a test similar to MOT every year to check car's safety.
 
PaulF said:
The Tesla one is £460 to purchase plus installation by either their approved electricians or your local electrician, the manuals are available. Installation cost will obviously vary per customer and electrician.
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minus £500 OLEV grant

So it'd likely cost £100-300 depending on your home wiring.
 
wuyanxu said:
Yes, a Ford costing £34600 with £££ in maintenance costs and would cost you over £10,000 to fuel it over 100k miles.
Or a Tesla costing £38900 with hardly any maintenance costs and would cost you ~£2000 to charge over 100k miles. Plus, you get 1500 miles per year free supercharging credit. Also possibility of upgrading it into robotaxi when you are bored with the car and want to buy the latest and greatest.


The £4900 self driving pack is able to:
  • Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from motorway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
  • Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the motorway.
  • Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
  • Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a car park. Really.
Coming later this year:
  • Recognise and respond to traffic lights and stop signs.
  • Automatic driving on city streets.
Autopilot (which is adaptive cruise control and lane centering) comes as standard on all cars.

I personally would not upgrade the wheels. I very much hate how manufacturers bundle large wheels with higher trim. I want all the tech and interior comfort but also best ride comfort and cheaper tyres.
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Once again you are ignoring the fact that it is going to take you along time to realise those savings with the EV whilst it is already in the bank with the ice.
The model 3 was promised to be an affordable EV to get more people into Ev's but it has failed at such a high price tag. They would have done better to forget about all the bull that people don't really need and sell cars people can afford straight away.
 
MatBin said:
Having run 2 Ford Focus for over 100K miles each I'm fascinated to know where you get £600/year maintenance, mine was nothing like that (2.0 ltr diesel)
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My RS doesn't even cost that much. Minor service is around £230 and major service is around £300 and those prices are higher than standard because of the oil used.
 
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MatBin said:
Having run 2 Ford Focus for over 100K miles each I'm fascinated to know where you get £600/year maintenance, mine was nothing like that (2.0 ltr diesel)
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Worse case over 5 years, tyres, brakes, disks and servicing at main dealer. £3K, so £600 a year. Thats not an unreasonable worse case scenario?

(12 years with the TVR has cost me £30K, but then it's now valued at £35K)
 
PaulF said:
Of which Tesla don't seem to qualify for.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...cheme-approved-chargepoint-model-list#history

Nothing stopping you getting one from the approved list though, but, I'd guess a lot of Tesla owners are 'bought in' to the brand and will want the official one.
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If you remember I looked last year to see if I could stretch to a Model S. Part of that was looking into teh charge point, of which Testla want £460 and you couldn't use the govt grant. Then I needed to rewire the garage, new consumer unit and feed from the house.... Total cost was £1k quoted.
 
nilagin said:
Once again you are ignoring the fact that it is going to take you along time to realise those savings with the EV whilst it is already in the bank with the ice.
The model 3 was promised to be an affordable EV to get more people into Ev's but it has failed at such a high price tag. They would have done better to forget about all the bull that people don't really need and sell cars people can afford straight away.
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Spec wise it's good though and a step in the right direction. Decent top speed, acceleration and range

It still doesn't make it an alternative to ICE for mainstream use though.
 
nilagin said:
Once again you are ignoring the fact that it is going to take you along time to realise those savings with the EV whilst it is already in the bank with the ice.
The model 3 was promised to be an affordable EV to get more people into Ev's but it has failed at such a high price tag. They would have done better to forget about all the bull that people don't really need and sell cars people can afford straight away.
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Short term gain vs long term sustainability. Great insight into the car industry :clap:

The Model 3 has always supposed to be comparable to likes of 3 series, C class and A4. It has never been promised to rival less premium, more affordable cars like the Golf or Focus.
 
wuyanxu said:
Short term gain vs long term sustainability. Great insight into the car industry :clap:

The Model 3 has always supposed to be comparable to likes of 3 series, C class and A4. It has never been promised to rival less premium, more affordable cars like the Golf or Focus.
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It's the size of car and up until the new 3 series came out it was between the size of a Focus and a Mondeo, which is why I gave the two options. Mondeo hatchback is also around £1500-£2000 cheaper than the estate with all extras. If you want to forgo the premium leather seats and just have leather seats without cooling you could have a Mondeo ST Line and save another £2k. 0% finance too.
 
nilagin said:
It's the size of car and up until the new 3 series came out it was between the size of a Focus and a Mondeo, which is why I gave the two options. Mondeo hatchback is also around £1500-£2000 cheaper than the estate with all extras. If you want to forgo the premium leather seats and just have leather seats without cooling you could have a Mondeo ST Line and save another £2k. 0% finance too.
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So size of the car is important now? Never mind Model 3 is classed as a compact exec.
Many pages ago in this thread, you insisted the small size of I-Pace doesn't matter and can be compared to large Model X. You said they are both premium SUV thus comparable.

You have a very vivid imagination :) making up every opportunity to put Tesla in a negative light.
 
I just wish the base price of the 3 was nearer the £30K suggested. It's got the range & performance to move EV forward
 
You and me both!
 
Indeed it would be better at £30k and light an even hotter flame under traditional manufacturers.

Unfortunately the per kWh battery price is not there yet. I also don't believe Tesla is interested in the lower-end business.

They've achieved their original mission statement. Many traditional manufacturers have promised many models of EV's in 2020 (notably VW) With release of Model Y, I fully expect Musk to step down as CEO and let the company grow organically.

Alternatively, if Musk stays on as CEO, they'll likely to concentrate on AI and Robotaxi. Musk is quite concerned about AI getting out of hand like Skynet. So I feel you'll not get a cheaper Tesla ever, not while Musk is at the helms.
 
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