Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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The MG EV SUV thing is supposed to be starting at £25k. Comes with a 7 year warranty too so it might be a better long term prospect.
 
Automotive advancements almost always come from the high end and then filter down. Often anything truly new is first seen in F1, then it starts cropping uo in super cars, then the high end mass product, and finally general consumer level.

Advancements in EVs are being made, mainly from the high end and it is unreasonable to expect the likes of ford to be pushing out equally performing cars at lower prices. But as is always the way, in time it will filter down.
 
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wuyanxu said:
So size of the car is important now? Never mind Model 3 is classed as a compact exec.
Many pages ago in this thread, you insisted the small size of I-Pace doesn't matter and can be compared to large Model X. You said they are both premium SUV thus comparable.

You have a very vivid imagination :) making up every opportunity to put Tesla in a negative light.
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Not a vivid imagination at all but aware of what cars compete against each other. Both the i Pace and Model X are premium electric SUV's at the moment they are lumped together in the same class because there are so few other options. As I said before the 3 Series, Audi A4 etc are larger than a Focus but smaller than a Mondeo, an Audi A3 / BMW 2 series, Golf and Focus are what are classed as compact saloons. If the Tesla Model 3 is classed as a premium compact saloon then it is in competition with the Audi A3, BMW 2 series, Focus Vignale etc making the Tesla very expensive.
 
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srichards said:
The MG EV SUV thing is supposed to be starting at £25k. Comes with a 7 year warranty too so it might be a better long term prospect.
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If it's like the other recent MG offerings, I wouldn't bother.
 
wuyanxu said:
It was free for us to fit 3.5kW charger, matching our Leaf. We paid £99 to upgrade to 7kW, maximum for single-phase home charger. Far from braking the bank.


The Tesla running cost is savings in comparison to petrol/diesel cars. Does your petrol/diesel car not need consumables such as brake pads, brake fluid, tyres?

As I said, there's no servicing requirement to claim under warranty. There is also no maintenance required on the electric powertrain, no engine oil, no filters, etc. So you could just do a test similar to MOT every year to check car's safety.
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But the Tesla S is a high end vehicle so running costs are likely to be higher than a mainstream non premium car, so claiming it will cheaper to run because of the savings in fuel costs isn't strictly true, it is being somewhat economical with the true cost comparison. Admittedly comparing an S to a similar priced ice might well be close but saying it's cheaper to run than a Focus isn't true. The model 3 might be comparable to a Focus in terms of running costs but then it costs a great deal more to buy new so total monthly costs would be similar if taken on lease.
 
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nilagin said:
Both the i Pace and Model X are premium electric SUV's at the moment they are lumped together in the same class because there are so few other options.
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For I-Pace: E-Pace, Evoque, Q3 millions of other small SUV
For Model X: Range Rover, Q7, X5, millions of other big SUV

If car drivetrain is more important (your defence), then Model 3 would be compared against Kona or Leaf e+, both of which are similarly priced smaller cars with no reliable public charging network. That would make Model 3 exceptional value, as seen by my travel time comparison earlier.

MatBin said:
But the Tesla S is a high end vehicle so running costs are likely to be higher than a mainstream non premium car, so claiming it will cheaper to run because of the savings in fuel costs isn't strictly true, it is being somewhat economical with the true cost comparison. Admittedly comparing an S to a similar priced ice might well be close but saying it's cheaper to run than a Focus isn't true. The model 3 might be comparable to a Focus in terms of running costs but then it costs a great deal more to buy new so total monthly costs would be similar if taken on lease.
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The Model S has never been compared against Focus. It should be compared against high powered E-class or 5 series.
The Model 3 should be compared against high powered 3 series or C class in terms of size, premium-ness and performance, I had never compared it against the Focus, it is not a fair comparison due to premium-ness, size differences.

Let me clarify the terminologies being used, comparing EV to ICE cars in the same class:
- Total cost of ownership (TCO) will be similar.
- Purchase price or monthly lease payment will be higher.
-Fuel cost will be vastly cheaper.
- Running cost (fuel cost + consumables + servicing) will be cheaper.
 
wuyanxu said:
For I-Pace: E-Pace, Evoque, Q3 millions of other small SUV
For Model X: Range Rover, Q7, X5, millions of other big SUV
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We weren't comparing SUV's in general but electric SUV's of which there are very few at the moment. They are being compared based on whether a premium brand or not as in terms of size there are so few to choose from.
 
wuyanxu said:
The Model 3 should be compared against high powered 3 series or C class in terms of size, premium-ness and performance, I had never compared it against the Focus, it is not a fair comparison due to premium-ness, size differences.
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The size difference between Model 3 and Focus 4dr saloon (available in most countries but not UK) and the Focus Estate are nominal. As for premium, I can only assume you haven't seen the Vignale models. And as said before the Mondeo Vignale which is slightly bigger than the Tesla is still a lot cheaper. Get one in fwd instead of AWD making it the same as the entry level Tesla increases the price difference even further.
 
Glowing report from Kona owners:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/hyund...ona-electric-premium-se-long-term-test-review
Most of all, though, there is affection here that goes far beyond what a combustion-engined Kona could achieve. Gill Harris has even christened her car ‘Topaz’. “I had an ix20,” she says, “and when it came time to trade it in, I realised that the EV would fit with my lifestyle. It’s just terrific.”

For others, such as Richard and Victoria Hurn, the Kona is the latest in a long line of EVs to get heavy use, with tens of thousands of miles already racked up. “It’s an environmental decision but also an economic one,” they say. “Our biggest problem is working out what we’ll switch to when the Kona’s mileage gets really high, really soon. There’s nothing quite like it.”

But for me, it’s Glenn Mason, a studious, rational former BMW X3 owner who now swears he’ll never go back to diesel, who nails the experience. “The Kona,” he says, “is a terrific first electric car. It has more than enough range for most uses, it’s pretty nicely built and there’s lots of equipment. What’s not to like?” I couldn’t agree more.
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wuyanxu said:
Let me clarify the terminologies being used, comparing EV to ICE cars in the same class:
- Total cost of ownership (TCO) will be similar.
- Purchase price or monthly lease payment will be higher.
-Fuel cost will be vastly cheaper.
- Running cost (fuel cost + consumables + servicing) will be cheaper.
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So if TCO is similar (to a premium car) the only reason to purchase is it's "green" credentials, which depending on your point of view are either wonderful or dubious and it's hardly a mass market car (although there are an awful lot of 3 series BM on the road) and if BM/Mercedes Class cars are the target market it's going to be a hell of a job to crack that market. Tesla will be going up against a market leader (BM) which has been dominant in that sector for something like 30 years and is only now beginning to come under strain from Mercedes and Audi, who themselves have been making great cars for many years. Tesla is a Johny come lately and has in most people's view got a very doubtful future (with or without Musk), personally I wouldn't sink my cash into a Tesla if there was the slightest doubt that they wont be around in 10/15 years time, some people will (in the same way there were early adopters of reborn Triumph motorcycles) but mass market requires many people to have confidence in a maker and by the time Tesla achieve that for their model 3 the big boys will be in the market (because they will have to due to Govt policy, not necessarily because they want to). Fleet buyers aren't going to buy something that might not be around for long if there's viable alternative either, I cant see the market in UK/Europe for mass market Tesla, EV's possibly/probably.
 
I'm considering an EV for my next car. Mine is the'second'car in the house only really used for to and from work and other short journeys.
Fuel cost around 1500, tax 250. Once an EV becomes available for not much more than those costs I'll be very interested.
Cheapest I can see at the moment is the Zoe at £289 which also includes free insurance. Too much at the moment for a second car but may be tempted once my current car dies.
 
Byker28i said:
Worse case over 5 years, tyres, brakes, disks and servicing at main dealer. £3K, so £600 a year. Thats not an unreasonable worse case scenario?
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I would say that was a bit more than my running costs, maybe I'm just easy on brakes and tyres, must be the biker in me :)
 
Interesting snippet on the radio this morning (Radio 4 about 6:30), a leading scientist (forget her name) suggested that if every new car sold from tomorrow in the UK was an EV, and she did say that was an impossibility due to many reasons, battery material not being the least, then it would be 15 years before all ICE cars were off our roads. So we can expect to see ICE for many years to come and snail pace infrastructure upgrades by the sound of it. I do see that as a great shame as I am sure the ICE is on it's way out and living on a main road I wont cry too much when that day comes, although one thing I have noticed where I live, it's very easy to get run over by an EV as you cant hear the damn things and most are driven by old foggies :)
 
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ancient_mariner said:
This made me chuckle. I drove a Hyundai iX 20 earlier this year on holiday, and it's almost impossible to imagine anyone having affection for one.
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that's because there are car owners and car owners (to use a Bond Line)
 
MatBin said:
I would say that was a bit more than my running costs, maybe I'm just easy on brakes and tyres, must be the biker in me :)
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As I said worse case - when the mazda dealer charges £110 an hour, it's not hard to run up bills... :)
 
Rapscallion said:
I'm considering an EV for my next car. Mine is the'second'car in the house only really used for to and from work and other short journeys.
Fuel cost around 1500, tax 250. Once an EV becomes available for not much more than those costs I'll be very interested.
Cheapest I can see at the moment is the Zoe at £289 which also includes free insurance. Too much at the moment for a second car but may be tempted once my current car dies.
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The zoe and leaf are fine until you throw in a motorway commute, 65-70mph gently cruising and watching the range. It's a whole new way of driving. Personally I think the leaf is a better car
Whats you're mileage, around 8000 miles?

The problem at the moment is that EV cars are almost £100 more a month on lease than a hyvrid
 
ancient_mariner said:
I drove a Hyundai iX 20 earlier this year on holiday, and it's almost impossible to imagine anyone having affection for one.
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I've had an I-30 for a few years now and while I'm not the sort to "have affection" for a car it's a dependable machine that gets the job done.
 
ancient_mariner said:
This made me chuckle. I drove a Hyundai iX 20 earlier this year on holiday, and it's almost impossible to imagine anyone having affection for one.
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That's because it is not an EV ;)

I drove an iX35 in New Zealand, it was a horrible car........ no power, bad auto transmission, stupidly small boot.

MatBin said:
So if TCO is similar (to a premium car) the only reason to purchase is it's "green" credentials, which depending on your point of view are either wonderful or dubious
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Point taken on fleet sales. Without any discount system, I can't see Tesla are keen to break into that market. But as you've said, there's an awful a lot of 3 series on the road, surely not all of them are company cars.

Currently, TCO is similar. But as you have seen, the only thing that is propping up the TCO on EV is the cost to purchase/lease the car. As soon as purchase price becomes similar, thus lower TCO on EV's, people won't be sticking with ICE cars.
 
Byker28i said:
The zoe and leaf are fine until you throw in a motorway commute, 65-70mph gently cruising and watching the range. It's a whole new way of driving. Personally I think the leaf is a better car
Whats you're mileage, around 8000 miles?

The problem at the moment is that EV cars are almost £100 more a month on lease than a hyvrid
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Annual is around 8000. It's a second car just used for commuting so the 140 range for the Zoe would be more than adequate for me. The furthest I've driven my current car was a circa 200mile return journey where I had a few opportunities to leave the car charging.
The Leaf may well be the better car but more expensive than the Zoe and my commuting car is all about cost...!
 
Try CarWow, you can get a 40kWh Zoe battery owned for as little as £18k. Because updated Zoe is due soon, with CCS charging.

Lack of DC rapid charging (will be fixed in the new Zoe with CCS) and all second hand cars are battery lease was what steered us towards the Leaf. We were buying to own for long term.
 
wuyanxu said:
Try CarWow, you can get a 40kWh Zoe battery owned for as little as £18k. Because updated Zoe is due soon, with CCS charging.

Lack of DC rapid charging (will be fixed in the new Zoe with CCS) and all second hand cars are battery lease was what steered us towards the Leaf. We were buying to own for long term.
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I'd be taking out a loan to fund the purchase so that would push up the overall costs hence my preference for a lease / PCP.
Do you know what warranty is on the car and if battery lease is on top of that model on CarWow?
 
Rapscallion said:
I'd be taking out a loan to fund the purchase so that would push up the overall costs hence my preference for a lease / PCP.
Do you know what warranty is on the car and if battery lease is on top of that model on CarWow?
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Carwow is just a broker. You fill in the details of what car and spec you want, they find the best price out of the dealers on their books. Finance and warranty will just be the standard new car amount for that particular manufacturer as if you had walked into the dealership yourself.
 
wuyanxu said:
Try CarWow, you can get a 40kWh Zoe battery owned for as little as £18k. Because updated Zoe is due soon, with CCS charging.

Lack of DC rapid charging (will be fixed in the new Zoe with CCS) and all second hand cars are battery lease was what steered us towards the Leaf. We were buying to own for long term.
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This - I discounted the zoe because everyone I looked had was battery lease. For the mileage I wanted it was almost the same price as the fuel I was using a month
Then I discounted the Leaf because I commuted on a motorway and unless I wanted to cruise at 65mph the battery distance was marginal in winter for a return journey.

Talking second hand 3 year old cars here. I was thinking it was a way to reduce monthly outgoings but I couldn't make it work. The range worked fine locally but not if I was sent to clients. 8K miles could work fine for you depending on your travel requirements
 
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Tesla have pulled a crafty one in Canada. The entry level Model 3 only has a range of 150km and is priced at $39999. This means that the car is eligible for the Canadian subsidy as the car is under $40k. But the Canadian subsidy rules allow the rest of the Model 3 range to be eligible because that one model meets the criteria. Tesla are unlikely to sell many, if any with such a short range but the subsidy on the rest makes them a better proposition for customers.
 
I know that's within the regs but it does seem a little dodgy.
They are allowed to basically buy credits to avoid a fine.
 
PaulF said:
I know that's within the regs but it does seem a little dodgy.
They are allowed to basically buy credits to avoid a fine.
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Seems very dodgy to me. Paying $2Bn to use another companies figures will give an idea of the fines involved, It's not as Fiat/Chrysler haven't had enough time to come up with cleaner cars. Of all the companies announcing their hybrid and electric plans, I can't say I have read of any news coming from that particular company.
 
wuyanxu said:
Launch edition expect to be similarly priced as Model 3, with similar range. But delivery aren't expected until mid-2020.
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Just after Model 3's will be delivered for anyone ordering since last week. They have to work their way through the people who had already pre ordered yet.
 
Byker28i said:
£40K for a electric Golf?
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However, it’s already likely that the first ID.3s will be considerably more expensive than the stated goal of the car costing “as much as a well-specced diesel Golf”. The UK spec is the middle trim level of the ID.3 1st range of launch models, and VW has only confirmed that the entry point for the more expensive launch line-up will be “less than €40,000 in Germany”. That could mean that the very first batch of ID.3 models to arrive will cost up to £40,000 in the UK - although there’s no confirmation yet on the final figure.
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A Golf GTD costs £30k to start with, add in a few optional extras to the same level as launch edition ID 3, I got £34k from VW website without exterior or interior upgrade, (only added stuff like active driver display, voice control, panoramic roof, LED headlight) so ~£5000 difference. Running cost is vastly cheaper than petrol/diesel Golf, only takes 50,000 miles to make EV cheaper. If not keeping the car, residual percentage will be better as more charge points popping up, more people want EV's. (just like today's second hand Leaf)

It'll also drive better than a Golf, rear wheel drive, balanced low-down weight distribution and instant throttle response. It will also have more interior space than a Golf, "similar to Passat", due to completely new MEB electric platform.

But one thing VW and all other manufacturer lacks is charging infrastructure. At that price, the Model 3, which has access to Tesla supercharger network, doesn't look so expensive after all. ;)




My car insurance was up for renewal. I live in an expensive post code, so prices may seem outrageous for most, but it's interesting comparison. (everything else equal, 8000 mileage for both cars)
Me with 9 years NCD as main driver on Skoda Octavia 2.0 TDI DSG gave me £600 best quote.
Wife with 3 years NCD as main driver on Nissan Leaf 24kWh gave me £680 best quote.
Wife with 3 years NCD as main driver on Skoda Octavia 2.0 TDI DSG gave me £800 best quote.
Me with 9 years NCD as main driver on Nissan Leaf 24kWh gave me £550 best quote.
So it seems the EV is cheaper to insure in my case.
 
I'd move! Those insurance costs are way more for your 2 cars than ours are for 3 cars (XF 3 litre Diesel, MX-5 2 litre and the Leaf) and my 4 bikes combined.
 
Blimey I only pay £330 for the TVR, and £360 for the Mazda 6 & MX-5 on a combined policy...

and of course the leaf will be cheaper - who'd want to steal that :D
 
I too live in an expensive area for car insurance but my RS (group 40) was only £389. A Leaf is only group 19-26.
 
Byker28i said:
Blimey I only pay £330 for the TVR, and £360 for the Mazda 6 & MX-5 on a combined policy...

and of course the leaf will be cheaper - who'd want to steal that :D
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Probably wouldn't get get far away, which I suppose is another plus for an ev
 
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