Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[Byker28i]

The link you provided is fishy. Only sampled across 500 cars, 2011-2015-ish Leaf in America are known to have battery degradation in hot weather.

It's hardly fishy, its the only usage report based on a high number of users. Got a better example of a detailed examination of battery usage for leafs using more cars? I deliberately ignore the ones based on 50 or so cars. Your dismissing this case using 500 cars, yet want us to fully accept your experience based on a sample of one!

We get it, your an evangelist for EV and your usage falls into the exact point where these cars make sense, small journeys, limited mileage and you have an accessible charge point.

 

[srichards]

Fastned have just installed the first 350kw charger. That's 7x faster than the current normal rapid. Podpoint are installing 150kw ones.

The charging speed is getting there.

With an EV you don't start with an empty car as the majority would have charged it over night. For 400 miles you'd be adding another 100 or so with a Tesla. That's a lunch stop at worst.

 

[Gaz J]

The same people who paid for the petrol and diesel infrastructure when ICE cars came about. If there are signals to the market that a technology will come then people will invest. The French have done it the UK have done it. Volvo and Ford are giving investment signals. If the analysts suggest that the consumption of diesel and petrol on forecourts will half / quarter by 2040 they will ramp down the investment in them.

Running down investment in garage forecourts isn't going to put charging points all over the county where I live. I'm sure that Ford etc will be more than happy to invest an enormous amount of money into a nationwide infrastructure that's going to take decades to get a return on investment. Dream on.

 

[Mr Bump]

This is already a reality. Most of my friends don't own cars right now. Yes I'm lucky to live in a city with good public transport. And have apps to find the nearest car to rent-by-the-minute if I really need it. Including electric ones. The money saved in fuel, insurance, maintenance, storage/parking, the purchase/lease cost, and those furry dice you hang on the interior mirror, is more than enough to cover, public transport, taxis and picking up a car of my choice just when I need it. And for a few rounds at the Go-Kart track if I ever felt the need to go "brmm- brmm"!

Have to agree this is the future and in urban sprawl is just a complete winner, would absolutely love to see a car pool scheme in my town of Mirfield.but Britain is just not that place that likes to share like that, we are a bit mongrel with our cars. I loved car share lanes and thought they were a big idea but people should won't share.

 

[onomatopoeia]

This is already a reality. Most of my friends don't own cars right now. Yes I'm lucky to live in a city with good public transport. And have apps to find the nearest car to rent-by-the-minute if I really need it. Including electric ones. The money saved in fuel, insurance, maintenance, storage/parking, the purchase/lease cost, and those furry dice you hang on the interior mirror, is more than enough to cover, public transport, taxis and picking up a car of my choice just when I need it. And for a few rounds at the Go-Kart track if I ever felt the need to go "brmm- brmm"!

I can imagine doing without a car if I lived in Zones 1-2 of the tube map. Can't think of anywhere else though. Certainly not in Bristol, because First Bus and "good public transport" do not belong in the same sentence. I was at a gig last night for example, it finished after the last bus to where I live just outside the city.

I have a friend in central London that uses something like 'zip car' (think that's what she said) when she needs to rent one, which is rarely, and most of the time it works.

 

[swanseamale47]

I can imagine doing without a car if I lived in Zones 1-2 of the tube map. Can't think of anywhere else though. Certainly not in Bristol, because First Bus and "good public transport" do not belong in the same sentence. I was at a gig last night for example, it finished after the last bus to where I live just outside the city.

I have a friend in central London that uses something like 'zip car' (think that's what she said) when she needs to rent one, which is rarely, and most of the time it works.

My last bus is around five pm, and none on a sunday. Public transport will need a MASSIVE shake up if they want people to use it.

 

[Mr Bump]

I wouldn't be surprised if large supermarkets started installing E chargers to give an added incentive to shop there.
Asda and Tescos etc, spend £50 and get an hour charge for free, proper winner.

 

[jamesev]

Running down investment in garage forecourts isn't going to put charging points all over the county where I live. I'm sure that Ford etc will be more than happy to invest an enormous amount of money into a nationwide infrastructure that's going to take decades to get a return on investment. Dream on.

I didn't say Ford would be the ones that invest but if a) government tell manufacturers that they can't sell any ICE cars from 2040 and b) the manufacturers declare they are investing in EV then that tells the market there is a level of certainty for a need for EV charging then someone will invest.

 

[Byker28i]

Fastned have just installed the first 350kw charger. That's 7x faster than the current normal rapid. Podpoint are installing 150kw ones.

The charging speed is getting there.

With an EV you don't start with an empty car as the majority would have charged it over night. For 400 miles you'd be adding another 100 or so with a Tesla. That's a lunch stop at worst.

Fastened 350Kw point is near Amsterdam, where's podpoint putting in the 150Kw ones?
Aren't most EV cars limited to 50Kw charging though?

It's where it needs to be. Thats a suitable solution if you could drive 200 miles, then take a 20-30 minute toilet/coffee break whilst the car charges back to 80% like a Tesla supercharger.
How much do these charge? Tesla charge 20p per KwH

I'd imaging that when these become popular then the charging points will become more numerous (next to parking spaces?) and no doubt the government will add tax to offset the revenue lost through fuel.

 

[nilagin]

There will be too few petrol stations. Just specialist places selling to hobbyists.

Do you know that for a fact? There will likely be more charging points than actual pumps at petrol stations, but I doubt there will be that much of a decline in the number of stations because you still have to cater for the people unable to recharge at home.

 

[Byker28i]

Do you know that for a fact? There will likely be more charging points than actual pumps at petrol stations, but I doubt there will be that much of a decline in the number of stations because you still have to cater for the people unable to recharge at home.

Unless theres a universal battery with a long range that can be quickly swapped? Drive in, battery is swapped out, slide and replace system? 5 mins later drive out with a fully charged battery
or we're into 20 min charging, which means the petrol station becomes more like the cafe stops etc they are becoming anyway.

 

[nilagin]

But people who buy second hand cars now know that every petrol station sells diesel, there are parts available for repairs etc.

Once they no longer make these cars the demand drops and this is followed by the infrastructure to support.

And what about the scrappage scheme that would be necessary to buy everyone out of their old cars to buy an EV. Governments won't be able to afford it.

 

[Byker28i]

The other issue of course is all the extra training and equipment needed to put out the fires on these cars if there's an accident. Reading the Tesla guide, the car can take 24 hours to fully extinguish, quarantine the car for 48 hours because of this as it can reignite. The theres the risk of death if the power isn't cut, they have detailed info on how to cut the power on their models.
Then the subtle mention of breathing apparatus because of the fumes given off, ulphuric acid, nickel, lithium, copper and cobalt are all emitted when an electric car goes up in flames.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/firstresponders?redirect=no

 

[jamesev]

Do you know that for a fact? There will likely be more charging points than actual pumps at petrol stations, but I doubt there will be that much of a decline in the number of stations because you still have to cater for the people unable to recharge at home.

Its not a known. The whole infrastructure will probably change. The reason there are petrol stations is a safety thing. As has been mentioned charging points for people who cant do it at home will most likely be at points where they already have their cars static for 20 mins or so Supermarkets, Multistory car parks. The clever people at the companies who invest will ensure they optimise the position of charge points.

Of course if money was no object they would tear up all the roads and relay them with wireless charging lanes. There are probably think tanks developing innovation as we speak.

 

[nilagin]

Unless theres a universal battery with a long range that can be quickly swapped? Drive in, battery is swapped out, slide and replace system? 5 mins later drive out with a fully charged battery
or we're into 20 min charging, which means the petrol station becomes more like the cafe stops etc they are becoming anyway.

When Formula E can do a battery change instead of a car change, then car manufacturers will be able to follow suit soon after, but as yet, I think we are a long way off from that.

 

[srichards]

Those that can't charge at home should be able to charge somewhere. Work, supermarket, train station. A normal 50kw rapid can put in quite a lot of charge in 20 minutes. That's easily a supermarket visit.

100kw charging cars include the Soul and the Ioniq already. The Model S is 120kw I think.

Battery swapping schemes have been tried before. They were unpopular. There's also the risk that your good battery will be swapped for a duffer and there's the warranty issue. If you buy a car with a battery and then go and swap it, it would have to be a manufacturer provided one doing these exchange schemes. . It's faster to charge the thing than set up such a complicated system.

 

[Byker28i]

When Formula E can do a battery change instead of a car change, then car manufacturers will be able to follow suit soon after, but as yet, I think we are a long way off from that.

I agree. It would need an agreed spec for batteries within all manufacturers, I can't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[nilagin]

The same people who paid for the petrol and diesel infrastructure when ICE cars came about. If there are signals to the market that a technology will come then people will invest. The French have done it the UK have done it. Volvo and Ford are giving investment signals. If the analysts suggest that the consumption of diesel and petrol on forecourts will half / quarter by 2040 they will ramp down the investment in them.

Obviously the investment for petrol and diesel will fall, the infrastructure is already there, they only need to maintain it.

 

[jamesev]

And what about the scrappage scheme that would be necessary to buy everyone out of their old cars to buy an EV. Governments won't be able to afford it.

Why would they have a scrappage scheme, reduced infrastructure and support as well as potential yearly duty rates on these cars would just price them off the road.

 

[Byker28i]

Those that can't charge at home should be able to charge somewhere. Work, supermarket, train station. A normal 50kw rapid can put in quite a lot of charge in 20 minutes. That's easily a supermarket visit.

100kw charging cars include the Soul and the Ioniq already. The Model S is 120kw I think.

There's only a few of the new models, most ev cars on the road are the slower charge, most ev points are 3Kw or 7Kw and there aren't that many.
So to get back to an increased uptake for general use rather than just short local journeys, we're back to longer range, more infrastructure of chargers and a simplified system of payment? There's about 20 different providers at the moment on charging points. We need a roaming agreement so you just have your one scheme.

 

[nilagin]

This is already a reality. Most of my friends don't own cars right now. Yes I'm lucky to live in a city with good public transport. And have apps to find the nearest car to rent-by-the-minute if I really need it. Including electric ones. The money saved in fuel, insurance, maintenance, storage/parking, the purchase/lease cost, and those furry dice you hang on the interior mirror, is more than enough to cover, public transport, taxis and picking up a car of my choice just when I need it. And for a few rounds at the Go-Kart track if I ever felt the need to go "brmm- brmm"!

It maybe a reality, but you and your friends are in a very small minority by a long shot. I don't know anyone who rents a car just for when they need one and I doubt there will be many on this forum that does either. Having to rent a car would be a major inconvenience to me. I much prefer to have my car sitting there waiting for me.
I have no intention of sharing my car or any car with anyone else. I don't even use public transport.

 

[nilagin]

Why would they have a scrappage scheme, reduced infrastructure and support as well as potential yearly duty rates on these cars would just price them off the road.

So people can afford to replace the cars that would then be made redundant.

 

[jamesev]

So people can afford to replace the cars that would then be made redundant.

That would be a decision that each needs to make whether they can afford a new lower day to day running car or an older car that cost 2x or 3x as much to run. That's just basic home economics. The government just provides incentives to shift the mind set. In this case just making it more expensive to run ICE cars.

 

[Byker28i]

So people can afford to replace the cars that would then be made redundant.

80% of people buying new cars do it on some sort of finance, mostly PCP these days, so don't actually own the cars, they just lease them for X amount a month.
It suits them as they have a nice new car on the driveway, it definitely suits the car manufacturers and the finance people. They'll just pick a different model based on the price at the time.

I don't think it will affect me. I tend to buy a car and keep it for 10+ years so it's not worth much at the end

 

[Byker28i]

That would be a decision that each needs to make whether they can afford a new lower day to day running car or an older car that cost 2x or 3x as much to run. That's just basic home economics. The government just provides incentives to shift the mind set. In this case just making it more expensive to run ICE cars.

It's got to be a lot though - we've already seen that just significantly increasing the price of fuel leads to annoyance, but no real drop in the consumption.

 

[nilagin]

That would be a decision that each needs to make whether they can afford a new lower day to day running car or an older car that cost 2x or 3x as much to run. That's just basic home economics. The government just provides incentives to shift the mind set. In this case just making it more expensive to run ICE cars.

But the incentive should be to make EV cheaper, not ICE more expensive. Even in 20yrs time hybrid is likely to be a ot more common place than outright EV.

 

[jamesev]

It's got to be a lot though - we've already seen that just significantly increasing the price of fuel leads to annoyance, but no real drop in the consumption.

It is but if they do it gradually over the next 25 years.... after all they now change an extra £310 annual duty on cars with a list price over £40,000, if they increase fuel prices by 1-2p / litre slowly this will see a reduction.

But the incentive should be to make EV cheaper, not ICE more expensive. Even in 20yrs time hybrid is likely to be a ot more common place than outright EV.

Cheaper than what. Its all relative. EV will become the cheaper.... option.

 

[nilagin]

It's got to be a lot though - we've already seen that just significantly increasing the price of fuel leads to annoyance, but no real drop in the consumption.

Exactly, cost of fuel hasn't deterred me. I don't even look at the price anymore, i just fill up, pay whatever it comes to and go. They could double the cost and it still wouldn't deter me.

 

[Byker28i]

But the incentive should be to make EV cheaper, not ICE more expensive. Even in 20yrs time hybrid is likely to be a ot more common place than outright EV.

The incentive has to go in to the infrastructure to make this even viable. At the moment, even in services there's only a few charge points, council buildings generally have two. Until then we just won't get past EV as a local use only.

 

[jamesev]

Exactly, cost of fuel hasn't deterred me. I don't even look at the price anymore, i just fill up, pay whatever it comes to and go. They could double the cost and it still wouldn't deter me.

if you can aford it then ok. What would be the cross over point though?
Double petrol price
£2000 Annual VED

?

 

[Byker28i]

It is but if they do it gradually over the next 25 years.... after all they now change an extra £310 annual duty on cars with a list price over £40,000, if they increase fuel prices by 1-2p / litre slowly this will see a reduction.

That won't - people will just pay it. The car is ingrained into our preferred mode of transport. Ev has to become cost comparable or just slightly more than the ICE equivalent not 150-200% more to attract people to buy (or lease)

 

[jamesev]

That won't - people will just pay it. The car is ingrained into our preferred mode of transport. Ev has to become cost comparable or just slightly more than the ICE equivalent not 150-200% more to attract people to buy (or lease)

Which it will - see the barriers to EV you tube video

 

[nilagin]

It is but if they do it gradually over the next 25 years.... after all they now change an extra £310 annual duty on cars with a list price over £40,000, if they increase fuel prices by 1-2p / litre slowly this will see a reduction.

Yes and now it costs £310/yr for 5 years to tax a new Tesla, meanwhile replacing my 4yr old car with a new car in a higher tax band sees my tax fall to £140/year for years 2-5.
Fuel is always creeping up 1-2p a litre. As I posted before, I have become immune to it and don't even bother looking at the price. I even continue to use 98RON where as I could be using 95RON which is about 7 or 8p a litre cheaper.

 

[nilagin]

if you can aford it then ok. What would be the cross over point though?
Double petrol price
£2000 Annual VED

?

At the moment nothing will deter me, my current car I have bought to keep and my sons will inherit it or I may pass it onto them sooner. I will get an additional car at some point, but the only EV that has got me interested at the moment would be the Mustang when they launch it.

 

[Cobra]

Public transport will need a MASSIVE shake up if they want people to use it.

My son used to do what is a five mile journey, in a car or on a bike, but on a bus, 3 changes and 10 miles later, it was actually quicker for him to walk!
( and he did several times)

The car is ingrained into our preferred mode of transport.

For many its the only realistic option. ( as above)

 

[ianp5a]

It maybe a reality, but you and your friends are in a very small minority by a long shot. I don't know anyone who rents a car just for when they need one and I doubt there will be many on this forum that does either. Having to rent a car would be a major inconvenience to me. I much prefer to have my car sitting there waiting for me.
I have no intention of sharing my car or any car with anyone else. I don't even use public transport.

Lots of people in cities really do use a pay per minute car. Whether you know anyone who does that or not, just says something about what you know, rather than what is actually going on. And regarding whether it's the minority, I personally don't need to do things because the majority do it.

I was replying to say that non-ownership is already here. It's not just the future, it is already a preferred choice for many people. As an example to learn from. And likely to become more widespread.

 

[Mr Bump]

Playing devils advocate petrol to me has gone down a lot over years adjusted for inflation hasn't it?

 

[jamesev]

Lots of people in cities really do use a pay per minute car. Whether you know anyone who does that or not, just says something about what you know, rather than what is actually going on. And regarding whether it's the minority, I personally don't need to do things because the majority do it.

I was replying to say that non-ownership is already here. It's not just the future, it is already a preferred choice for many people. As an example to learn from. And likely to become more widespread.

This will also be the case when the circular economy bites. There is already talk of non ownership of domestic appliances such as washing machines. Manufactures will find materials needed too expensive for the consumer approach of buy and throw away at the end of life.

The move to the manufacturer owning the product and selling it to you for x cycles (say 2000) and manufacturing it in such a way it can be broken down and the parts reused in a new product.

Playing devils advocate petrol to me has gone down a lot over years adjusted for inflation hasn't it?

or has the % or disposable income gone up?

 

[PaulF]

Ok, I've skipped a few pages of this thread on my phone but I have a question.
With people mentioning the Tesla infrastructure of chargers and maybe Ford and other manufacturers investing in a charger infrastructure of some sort, is it the case that theses chargers can only be used with thier make of car? Surely they have a common connector type.

 

[jamesev]

Ok, I've skipped a few pages of this thread on my phone but I have a question.
With people mentioning the Tesla infrastructure of chargers and maybe Ford and other manufacturers investing in a charger infrastructure of some sort, is it the case that theses chargers can only be used with thier make of car? Surely they have a common connector type.

You would have thought so. At some point there will need to be. It can't be economic to have charge point per manufacturer.