Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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wuyanxu said:
Not blinkered thinking, only pointing out the obvious.
But the issue here is not stopping for pedestrians at the last second. The real issue is pedestrian awareness of your moving or about to move vehicle.
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I really struggle to understand you at times.
You want the responsibility to be loaded onto pedestrians?
What about children, old people, deaf people, blind people, those with reduced mobility?
Who said anything about "last second"

You are aware presumably that pedestrians have "right of way " even on roads (albeit still subject to not leaping out in front of a moving car)
 
MatBin said:
You are aware presumably that pedestrians have "right of way " even on roads (albeit still subject to not leaping out in front of a moving car)
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It is never a good move to quote facts to the faithful. They have been known to react badly... :thinking:
 
wuyanxu said:
10m cable must be quite a monster to get back into the boot........ it's only really required because there's not enough chargers and the bays may have cars parked but not plugged in.
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No more than a 5m cable. The 10m one was bought since we wanted/needed 10m for the reason I gave. Yes, a 2m one would be better for plugging in at some places but a 10m one will reach a 2m gap...
 
MatBin said:
I really struggle to understand you at times.
You want the responsibility to be loaded onto pedestrians?
What about children, old people, deaf people, blind people, those with reduced mobility?
Who said anything about "last second"

You are aware presumably that pedestrians have "right of way " even on roads (albeit still subject to not leaping out in front of a moving car)
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Ultimately, it's a shared responsibility - the driver is responsible for not hitting pedestrians, pedestrians are responsible for being sensible in environments when cars exist. Which is difficult if it is hard to tell if a car is about to reverse out of parking space.
Pedestrian have the right of way, but pedestrian is also responsible for their own safety. When I'm walking down the car park and became aware of a car starting, I'll be sure to not stand or walk near it.

Children, old people, blind people will all benefit from a noise-maker when a quiet vehicle without any exterior start-up sound engages reverse. Which was prevented by an outdated legislation and this new noise-maker legislation did nothing to put that right.

The "last second" bit only comes about because your system sounded similar to AEB and you are loading 100% of responsibility to the driver or car's autonomous system. By same logic, forward noise-maker wouldn't be needed because AEB has became common and driver can see any person on the road. I was just pointing out the absurdity of this.
 
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Tesla Model 3 aces Euro NCAP test, first class AEB and taking full advantage of EV architecture advantages.
https://electrek.co/2019/07/03/tesla-model-3-aces-crash-test-europe/
Matthew Avery, Director of Research at Thatcham Research, commented on the Model 3’s collision avoidance system:

“The Tesla Model 3 achieved one of the highest Safety Assist scores we have seen to date. Its Collision Avoidance Assist system is first class, with its Autonomous Emergency Braking and Forward Collision Warning systems showing high levels of performance.”​
Avery said that Model 3’s crash test results benefited from the advantages of electric vehicles:

“Tesla has done a great job of playing the structural benefits of an electric vehicle to its advantage. Impact performance is enhanced by the absence of a mechanical engine and the car’s low centre of gravity. The Tesla Model 3 really benefits from its all electric-architecture.”​
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Tesla new 250kW v3 supercharger can recharge 200 miles in under 20 minutes:
https://electrek.co/2019/07/02/tesla-supercharger-v3-range-minutes/
So you can drive 4 hours ~250 miles from home, stop and go to the toilet, have a look at the map/traffic, and the car has is ready with 200+ miles charged, ~3 more hours of motorway speed driving.

"Honda e" looks really good:
https://electrek.co/2019/07/02/honda-e-motor-video-images/
Rear wheel drive, tighter turning circle than London taxi, retro-styling and great interior.
Looking like a great candidate to replace our Leaf in many years time as a local runabout. Local runabout doesn't need any public infrastructure so can be from any brand.
 
MatBin said:
I would just move my car out if that was the case and I had reversed in, have done so a few times. The only place I drive into a slot is in the garden centre because all of the bays are angled and you can't reverse in.
I wouldn't want to reverse off my drive into the main road, plus the high boot blocks out seeing youngsters running behind my car if I'm reversing off my drive. I also have 1m high fencing down both sides (neighbors fences, both of them unusually plus a brick pillar on one side). So for me reversing on is the only safe option.
Years ago some pillock reversed off his drive and caused me to have an accident on my motorcycle so I guess I may be biased.
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I totally agree with you that reversing out into a main road is not a good idea, we are fortunate to have a drive big enough to drive in & turn around so we can always drive out forward. We also live at the top end of a cul de sac so there's little or no pedestrian movement at the end of our drive anyway.
 
MatBin said:
Writing is on the wall already apparently
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/...tric-cars-expert-claims/ar-AADMLCQ?ocid=ientp
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From the article:
And, while EVs may be grabbing the headlines and industry attention, Gress predicted that focus will be reversed within a decade or so. “The fuel cell is not ready to kick in yet,” Gress added. “By 2030, we’ll see that coming, especially in passenger cars that run long distances, or trucks.”
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So, the "writing is on the wall" for hydrogen powered cars to start coming in 10 years time....... by which time EV would be well established and many infrastructure hopefully will be built. So I personally don't see EV will disappear, ever. As more and more people drive and live with EV's, they'll see a moderately sized battery car like Honda e is still a very capable every-day car. 135 miles range is more than enough for normal daily use and occasional long distance driving (eg. 6-12 times a year)
Of course long distance passenger cars and trucks may become hydrogen powered in 10-15 years, and it's always good to have choices.
 
Mr Bump said:
removing subsidies for people buying bad PHEV vehicles was a good thing.
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I agree. If this is the official attitude of the industry...
The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders said the fall in alternatively fuelled cars, such as hybrid electric vehicles, was "a grave concern".It said efforts to sell such cars were being undermined by confusing policies and "premature" removal of subsidies.
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...it shows that they know their product isn't sufficiently attractive but they expect the tax payer to prop up their businesses.
 
Mr Bump said:
I don't want my tax money going to those people.
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Who would you like your penny's worth to go to then? Or do you need it for your pension and flights to your holiday home in Greece.
 
By law rather than conscience...
 
Nod said:
By law rather than conscience...
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Surely it doesn't matter why someone does the right thing - only that they do? :thinking:
 
He pays as little tax as he can possibly get away with while staying legal - not what I'd call doing the right thing.
 
Nod said:
He pays as little tax as he can possibly get away with while staying legal - not what I'd call doing the right thing.
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haha you make me laugh, so putting money in my pension offends you, move on dinosaur.
 
Avoiding tax while taking as much benefit from what it provides as possible offends me.
 
Its not diesels that are the problem, its the people driving them! Modern diesels are cleaner than people think, we get car after car into the workshop that isnt running properly because people dont drive them properly. A diesel vehicle for city use is a bad idea, they arnt designed for that kind of driving and people wonder why their DPF's are failing and their EGR's soot up. Then when their EML lights up they dont consider it a problem and continue to drive until their turbo seals fail.

If you own a diesel, drive it, hard. VAG for instance, their cars mostly will do a passive re-gen quite easily but you have to drive it continuously for a good 1/2 hour at 30+ without slowing down , Saabs will re-gen at much lower speeds (30 KPH) but as soon as you stop at the lights the re-gen is aborted. Constantly aborting re-gens isnt good for a DPF or your car, also, an adaptive ECU in constant heavy traffic start/stop situations isnt good for a diesel.

So, from a tech's point of view, if you live in a city, or even potter around a village, dont buy a diesel.

Or do, because they keep us in work!
 
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Mr Bump said:
not really removing subsidies for people buying bad PHEV vehicles was a good thing.
I don't want my tax money going to those people.
people will be having a think and will wait for better vehicles at the moment there are not enough decent hybrid and EV out there.
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Actually there are, some hybrids are fantastic, some fully electric cars are also pretty decent, it just depends on what you want and expect from one, and how much money you have to spend.
 
Usernameuser said:
Actually there are, some hybrids are fantastic, some fully electric cars are also pretty decent, it just depends on what you want and expect from one, and how much money you have to spend.
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I only quoted bad PHEV vehicles
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
What would you do?
Pay more than you had to?
Why would anyone do that?
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I almost certainly pay more than I'd have to if I took a lot of steps to actively avoid paying tax but I'd rather the money went to supporting the country/nation at large rather than feathering the nests of assorted accountants etc.. Why? A different moral compass maybe?
 
Mr Bump said:
I only quoted bad PHEV vehicles
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My apologies, to be fair though they are designed to recharge more cheaply plugged in than running on the engine, I wonder though, is this a greener way to recharge? I think what we need is a generator that runs while the electric motors are running, it might not be enough to fully recharge but it might give the vehicle a better range.

I also think a second battery bank that can be easily switched over would be a good idea, so, you drive home, park your car up, remove the battery bank and replace it with one that has spent all day yesterday recharging from a solar panel on the roof of your home, I know the banks are big and heavy, I also know they are incredibly dangerous, but its still dooable.
 
Usernameuser said:
Its not diesels that are the problem, its the people driving them! Modern diesels are cleaner than people think, we get car after car into the workshop that isnt running properly because people dont drive them properly. A diesel vehicle for city use is a bad idea, they arnt designed for that kind of driving and people wonder why their DPF's are failing and their EGR's soot up. Then when their EML lights up they dont consider it a problem and continue to drive until their turbo seals fail.
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my experience of diesels has been nothing like you describe
for example my wife's previous car was a ford Smax 2ltr diesel which she kept for 3 years from new and covered a mere 18,000 miles over the 3 years
no sign of DPF clogging, no warning lights no clogged EGR valve and certainly no turbo failure
the car was used for mainly town driving with a few round trips to newquay n back ( about 700 miles ) in the summer each year
she now drives a BMW 220d xdrive gran tourer which has covered around 15,000 miles in the last 18 months or so of ownership with non of the problems you describe
she could of gone for the 218i BMW with more or less the same spec but on test drive i found it gutless and that was before we filled the 7 seats with people

the question of if they are the right type of vehicle for the type of journeys we make i have to say yes they are
we need the 7 seats and i don't want something that suffers once it's seats are filled

to be honest over the years i have never had any of the problems you describe with any of the diesel vehicles i have owned and iv'e had a few but i know people have had problems it just makes me wonder how they are driving them or is it a question of poor maintenance
 
cosmicma said:
my experience of diesels has been nothing like you describe
for example my wife's previous car was a ford Smax 2ltr diesel which she kept for 3 years from new and covered a mere 18,000 miles over the 3 years
no sign of DPF clogging, no warning lights no clogged EGR valve and certainly no turbo failure
the car was used for mainly town driving with a few round trips to newquay n back ( about 700 miles ) in the summer each year
she now drives a BMW 220d xdrive gran tourer which has covered around 15,000 miles in the last 18 months or so of ownership with non of the problems you describe
she could of gone for the 218i BMW with more or less the same spec but on test drive i found it gutless and that was before we filled the 7 seats with people

the question of if they are the right type of vehicle for the type of journeys we make i have to say yes they are
we need the 7 seats and i don't want something that suffers once it's seats are filled

to be honest over the years i have never had any of the problems you describe with any of the diesel vehicles i have owned and iv'e had a few but i know people have had problems it just makes me wonder how they are driving them or is it a question of poor maintenance
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Its driving them and how you drive them, as I said, some cars do passive re-gens and some dont, so they can re-gen at lower speeds. Some older cars use a vaporiser to inject fuel into the DPF but for it to work the DPF needs to be hot, the ECU needs to see the correct parameters, and the vehicle needs to maintain a constant speed over a set distance. I take it you are driving fairly new vehicles? It might be prudent to google how your car re-gens and what parameters need to be met in order for it to do so, even fuel quantity in the tank will have a deciding factor on some vehicles.
 
It's a wonder why it took so long to get Electric ice cream vans. The article also said they are using old repurposed EV battery to power their freezers, nice re-use for old EV batteries.

For the Ford official press release, the two PDF says:
"Average daily miles using range extender 46.3 km (28.8 miles) total Longest daily journey 72.4 km (45 miles)"
"Average daily miles using range extender 46.2 km (28.7 miles) total Longest daily journey 402 km (250 miles) for one delivery"
So instead of a parallel PHEV, a 150-200 miles full EV version of the van will work just as well, allowing 100% of the journey to be taken on cheap electric power. For Speedy Hire case study highlights, it says "not suitable for full EV" despite average daily miles is very low. But for TFL case study highlights, the fact that is very suitable for full EV was not mentioned.
It just happens that Ford doesn't sell full EV vans until 2021, probably wants to sell their PHEV arriving end of this year. I'm sure by 2021, a similar research paper will appear with a different conclusion. ;)

Usernameuser said:
I think what we need is a generator that runs while the electric motors are running, it might not be enough to fully recharge but it might give the vehicle a better range.

I also think a second battery bank that can be easily switched over would be a good idea, so, you drive home, park your car up, remove the battery bank and replace it with one that has spent all day yesterday recharging from a solar panel on the roof of your home, I know the banks are big and heavy, I also know they are incredibly dangerous, but its still dooable.
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Totally agree. Range extended EV is the way to go before charging infrastructure catches up, it allows ICE to be operating at optimum load and speed. Unlike diesel filter regenerations, you no longer have to babysit the ICE. You can then have a small 20-30kWh battery that covers most of your daily needs, then have a REx to burn fossil fuel outside the city in-case you can't get a charge.

While the battery swap idea is nice, and I really like the bit where it charges from your own solar panels. Unfortunately currently batteries are too big and heavy to make it feasible. Currently, best you can do is to have a house-battery to soak up solar power and charge your EV off that. There is an electric scooter with 5kWh removable battery, which already needed the battery to be on wheels:
https://electrek.co/2019/02/15/silence-s01-electric-scooter/
 
wuyanxu said:
It's a wonder why it took so long to get Electric ice cream vans. The article also said they are using old repurposed EV battery to power their freezers, nice re-use for old EV batteries.

For the Ford official press release, the two PDF says:
"Average daily miles using range extender 46.3 km (28.8 miles) total Longest daily journey 72.4 km (45 miles)"
"Average daily miles using range extender 46.2 km (28.7 miles) total Longest daily journey 402 km (250 miles) for one delivery"
So instead of a parallel PHEV, a 150-200 miles full EV version of the van will work just as well, allowing 100% of the journey to be taken on cheap electric power. For Speedy Hire case study highlights, it says "not suitable for full EV" despite average daily miles is very low. But for TFL case study highlights, the fact that is very suitable for full EV was not mentioned.
It just happens that Ford doesn't sell full EV vans until 2021, probably wants to sell their PHEV arriving end of this year. I'm sure by 2021, a similar research paper will appear with a different conclusion. ;)
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A fully electric van wouldn't have worked just as well for two reasons. The size of the battery would encroach on payload space. The weight of the battery will reduce the payload allowed.
 
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wuyanxu said:
Nissan managed to have identical load space between NV200 and e-NV200, while EV version has higher payload capacity.
https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/nissan/nv200/2009-dimensions/

I do wonder, in 2021, would you change your tone......
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An identical small payload. Only 2.5 euro pallets compared to the 3 euro pallets capacity in the Transit. That means the Nissan will have to make more trips back to base to reload wasting valuable work time. Transit can recharge itself on the move and the business can get more work done.

Change my tone on what in 2021?
 
nilagin said:
An identical small payload. Only 2.5 euro pallets compared to the 3 euro pallets capacity in the Transit. That means the Nissan will have to make more trips back to base to reload wasting valuable work time. Transit can recharge itself on the move and the business can get more work done.
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Please stop changing the subject.

The point is that your previous statement has been proven wrong. The change to EV with NV200 van works just as well, it doesn't encroach on payload space and weight of battery did not reduce payload allowed.
nilagin said:
A fully electric van wouldn't have worked just as well for two reasons. The size of the battery would encroach on payload space. The weight of the battery will reduce the payload allowed.
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nilagin said:
Change my tone on what in 2021?
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https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/...l-electric-ford-transit-van-to-arrive-in-2021
Ford is due to bring out full EV van in 2021. I do wonder, would you change your attitude towards EV's in 2021? Is that when you will stop posting false, baseless statements on EV's like the above?
 
wuyanxu said:
Please stop changing the subject.

The point is that your previous statement has been proven wrong. The change to EV with NV200 van works just as well, it doesn't encroach on payload space and weight of battery did not reduce payload allowed.



https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/...l-electric-ford-transit-van-to-arrive-in-2021
Ford is due to bring out full EV van in 2021. I do wonder, would you change your attitude towards EV's in 2021? Is that when you will stop posting false, baseless statements on EV's like the above?
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It's not a false statement. The Nissan van had to be re- engineered to strengthen it to take the weight of the battery. Hence why It's payload was increased.
It all depends on where a vehicle is in It's lifecycle and whether a manufacturer feels it is worth reengineering a vehicle and whether they can recoup the cost before the next model is reintroduced. The fact that the next Transit is due in 2yrs means it isn't worthwhile reengineering the current model to suit as they wouldn't recoup the cost and customers would be unlikely to pay for the extra cost.
 
nilagin said:
The fact that the next Transit is due in 2yrs means it isn't worthwhile reengineering the current model to suit as they wouldn't recoup the cost and customers would be unlikely to pay for the extra cost.
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I'd love to see bank robbers doing a job in an ev Transit and having to charge it outside the target bank :)
 
I'd rather see coin operated cabled chargers (with a card pay option) than induction pads that very few cars can use without a £1000 modification.
 
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