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Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel
- Thread starter Mr Bump
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With some sort of trolly & jack system I don't see why not. The idea of swap out batteries just makes the whole idea much easier. And just think, your std car comes with 2 batteries but 3 battery bays, so you can add an additional battery and extend the range.
Manufacturers need to do something to make the idea of EV's & and battery power more appealing.
Nod
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Lovely idea but getting two manufacturers to agree on a standard would be all but impossible - what would suit a small city car would be no use for a mile eater (and that could be in the same manufacturer's range, let alone an industry standard!)
Yes, a full 200 mile battery would be a heavy old lump but a 30 mile booster (like in the link on the last page) would be reasonably manageable.
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The battery alone in the 30 mile booster is 48lb or around 22kg, not that manageable really, especially for anyone who isn't that fit or healthy. Can you imagine an oap doing that swap.
I know on paper it doesn't sound a lot but I've had to handle enough UPS batteries to know they're not the easiest things to sling around.
If you make the EV batteries modular, which in principle sounds a fine idea, you will have no end of issues with connections. After all, if you expect the owner to change their own they would need to be easily accessible while still being fitted low in the vehicle. Water ingress would need to be 100% avoided, you don't want to short out such high voltage.
Imagine the law suit if one failed resulting in damage or loss of life.
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The EV batteries are modular. They are sealed units to the customer but if you open them up they will be lots of smaller modules linked together.
Safety would dictate that you don't let unqualified people open them up without it being at their own risk and obviously invalidates any warranty.
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I suggested the idea of battery-exchange stations a couple of pages back, but team EV didn't like the idea, at least partly because they saw ownership of the battery as being a key part of EV ownership.
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The true unit cost of cars from manufacturers to the dealers also fluctuate and are hidden to the buyer. The dealer makes a bigger profit if the buyer is bad negotiator.
If you want to buy a car that is factory order, Hyundai dealer's wording, you'd have to pay maximum which is the RRP. I tried to buy Ioniq hybrid start of 2017, delivered by March for zero tax. They couldn't do it as the model was so new, and no dealer were able to give any discount on factory order.
Model variants come and go from all manufacturers. Only difference is Tesla is under the media's microscope.
Whilst the weight of current battery technology is an issue for end users to do battery swaps, as mentioned above. The idea of carrying around large battery JUST for occasional long trips doesn't really make sense in terms of vehicle efficiency.
If I had a 200+ miles EV, I would prefer to have something like 1/3 of the battery installed in my long distance EV for my daily 60 miles commute. Rest of the modules at home, charging from excess solar for next day's commute. Only install all modules for family holidays.
One possible reason why EV battery isn't modular is perhaps because the cells has to be matched to eachother. If you install one used AA battery with 3 other good AA, the whole pack will be used up quicker than 3/4. So if your modular batteries aged differently, your total distance of whole pack will be heavily affected.
This is why I feel series hybrid with moderate EV range (eg. 130 miles that covers vast majority people daily use), plus a small range extender (fossil fuel or hydrogen or anything with high energy density) makes a lot of sense. Normal day-to-day use, the car is like an EV, you never have to visit somewhere specifically for fuel and you have flexibility of the battery storage device. The range extender would only be used outside the city, and hopefully less than once a month, only for people covering huge distances not wanting to stop, or in remote areas.
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Nod
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Only (in our case) because the rental/leasing cost of the battery for the Zoe is more than our petrol bill was for the A class the Leaf replaced.
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You couldn't store an extra battery and only carry it when you need it? I don't like carrying any extra weight in my car than necessary, so I wouldn't lug a battery around "just in case". It would mean that you could go on that 200 mile trip without stopping if you wanted to.
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Car manufacturers generally only change their pricing and model specs once a year, and it is usually towards the tail end of the year, becoming next year's model. I believe this is the 3rd or possibly 4th time Tesla have altered their prices and model specs since January.
Not all manufacturers/dealers will want full price for a factory order car. It usually depends on the demand for the vehicle, but if a dealer has a car that has been in stock for a month or so they are more likely to offer a bigger discount especially toward the end of the month, so they can refresh their stock.
The 3 wheeled Noble AWD EV has a range of 160 miles but you can buy a small additional battery to plug in yourself and extend the range to 193 miles.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...AhAB&usg=AOvVaw2nzf7KS0A1t8IX1A6MY247&cf=1
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The problem with the public wanting "500 miles EV" without considering their actual daily mileage is that you will have to carry extra weight of the battery everywhere to enable the extra miles people may use once a blue moon.
So, in effect, everyone driving long range EV, and PHEV that are never plugged in, are lugging around extra weight that is not being used often. Also the extra pollution needed to produce the unused battery capacity.
I don't really know what's the solution for this........ an additional battery to extend the range may be the answer, like the Noble mentioned above? Or fuel-based range extenders? Or just recharge whenever the car isn't moving.
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What puzzles me is, if cars from the factory are fixed price for duration of the year, how come some dealers are able to offer more discount than other dealers? How come the lowest bidding dealer changes all the time?
Isn't it how CarWow and other brokers work? Dealerships order in bulk to get better price from the factory, then this saving is passed on to customers. Just walking into a dealership rarely gets the best price, wanting exotic list of specs also rarely gives you good price.
With the new standard multi-coat white paint on Model 3, and PCP monthly of £303 for 10k annual miles for 48 months, 10k deposit. I'm tempted......... The absolutely standard 3 has everything I'd want for my car. From keyless Bluetooth entry to ACC + lane centering autopilot to supercharger access for long distance driving to future improvements as they issue updates. If only it is below luxury car tax, I suspect they are using the luxury car tax as "demand leaver" as media would call it.
It's roughly man-maths-equivalent to buying a 55mpg car that is ~£240 monthly payment. The ICE car should be 10p/mile on fuel whereas Tesla should do as well as my Leaf at 2.5p/mile. So 10k annual miles give £750 fuel savings, which is £62 per month extra to spend on EV.
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If the EV running costs are the same, (as your Leaf), the question you need to ask is am I happy to spend £24.5K over 4 years for 40K miles, just finance costs alone, that's just over 61p a mile (don't forget to add maintenance/trye costs etc bringing it closer to 70p a mile). I think the man maths of savings over ICE, has just paled into insignificance........
My 55mpg ICE car, which I have owned from new stands me at approx 25p per mile. I've spent 50K in 7 years, but covered 5 times the mileage of your PCP. My approx costs 20K car purchase, 20K fuel and 10K maintenance.
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There are "independent" lone dealers and there are dealers that are members of a large group. The latter will have a larger stock to draw from where as the lone dealership will just have a few examples. The lone dealership prices will likely be higher as they will probably be selling fewer cars. A bigger dealership will likely be selling more cars at lower prices because the greater number of cars sold each month means they get a bigger bonus from the manufacturer as well as a larger amount of cars coming in for servicing as a result of those sales.
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Perhaps what we need is an EV with a modular ICE/Hydrogen fuel cell range extender that can be plugged in or removed by the owner as & when he/she needs it? Something a bit like a portable generator? You could even 'hire them if/when you wanted the extra range .......alternatively maybe you could use a small trailer with the range extender & fuel tank pre-installed? Either way you don't need to haul the range extender around with you when you can manage with batteries & destination charging.
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Yeah, my heart says yes, my head says no. Wife probably will also say no
The sensible way forward for me is to drive my Skoda a further ~40k miles. Flip it before the DPF will be a problem. I've read people having problems as early as 150k miles, so if I sell it before 130k, hopefully the car should not have any DPF problems.
Hopefully by then, in ~4 years time, there will be competitively priced EV's.
For Model 3:
Maintenance within the new car 4 years finance period will be less than ICE vehicles, Tesla don't mandate services as part of their service schedule. The required items should be do-able at any tyre-place: https://www.speakev.com/threads/model-3-service-requirements.137287/#post-2677606
Tyres are 235/45 R18, more expensive than similar sized cars with the popular 205/55 R16 size. Let's say £50 more per tyre, new tyres every 20k?
Insurance will be very expensive........
For your 20k spent in fuel, you could have spent 10k more on a EV instead, plus pocket ~5k because recharging would only cost ~5k. If suitable EV and infrastructure were available.
BMW i3 range extender lives under the boot. Can the lower section of the boot be opened like a stable door? allowing people to wheel a range extender into the same place? Or front of the car opened to wheel a range extender into the now-empty bonnet. There's probably vehicle structural requirements stopping this, but I think this is better than putting 90kWh batteries into inefficient cars that rarely gets used.
Speaking of I-Pace, Jaguar has been green lit £500m to develop EV's
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/jagua...s-500m-government-loan-guarantee-to-build-evs
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For your 20k spent in fuel, you could have spent 10k more on a EV instead, plus pocket ~5k because recharging would only cost ~5k. If suitable EV and infrastructure were available.
We've been through all this before, lets do the sums simply.
The equivalent EV vehicle would be nearer 40K - I have a Volvo V50 Estate R-Design (I actually do regularly 350+ miles in a day, so EV would be a pain, but that's a side issue here) - can't find an equivalent EV estate, but a similar specced Golf to my current car is £37,250 (without government grant), so another couple of K for an estate doesn't seem unreasonable.
For 200K miles using your figure of 2.5p per mile, we get £5K, and lets be really generous and halve the maintenance costs to £5K (from 10K ICE), and thats assuming the batteries would be happy after 1000+ charges (say recharge on average every 200 miles)
That means for the first 200K miles and 7 years of ownership the costs of my Volvo and an equivalent EV would be roughly the same, so only after 200K are you actually starting to save money........
And thats not taking into account the range (an issue for me), the lack of infrastructure and the increased interest charges as I've had to borrow 40K not 20K.
Now you could say to compare like for like if we took a new Volvo V40 R-Design D2 and the equivalent spec E-Golf then the price difference is £11K (24K v 35K), using my figures in 200K miles the Volvo will use 20K fuel and cost 10K in Maintenance, and the Golf would use 5K in fuel and my generous 5K maintenance, so at 200K the EV is 5K up, making the crossover point around 150K miles, its still a big mileage to see benefit in your back pocket.
So all this man-maths about saving money is complete ********* (insert a word of your choice). If you are doing it to save money, then its not happening, if you are driving EV for other reasons then fair enough.
BTW my DPF failed at 194K miles, I took the view that £600 for a new one was less than two months on an HP agreement for a new vehicle so happily changed it.
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The 2 key points I got from your post is that there isn't enough choice of EV's to allow you to choose a suitable vehicle for your needs. (eg. no Volvo estate EV)
There is also not enough charging to allow you to cover your distance. (200k miles over 7 years is 80 miles every single day! I assume you don't drive that distance 356 days a year and your driving pattern is more sporadic, thus would require en-route charging)
So although man-maths seems to work out over 150k miles, as you've pointed out, it still requires more reasons to switch to EV at current pricing increase.
What I am trying to point out, is that you have fuel savings to allow you to spend slightly more on your EV if there are ones tickle your fancy. Eg. if you had been paying £250 a month on ICE car, you can now afford a £300 a month for an EV.
There is also not enough charging to allow you to cover your distance. (200k miles over 7 years is 80 miles every single day! I assume you don't drive that distance 356 days a year and your driving pattern is more sporadic, thus would require en-route charging)
So although man-maths seems to work out over 150k miles, as you've pointed out, it still requires more reasons to switch to EV at current pricing increase.
What I am trying to point out, is that you have fuel savings to allow you to spend slightly more on your EV if there are ones tickle your fancy. Eg. if you had been paying £250 a month on ICE car, you can now afford a £300 a month for an EV.
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You are the true master of missing the point, or trying to make it work your way!!!
You are not saving any money with an EV using your figures unless you are going to do more than 150K miles in that vehicle - period
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PCP is generally for people who want to trade in the car at the end of the term. Very few people pay off the balance and keep the car. £10K Deposit seems very high to be still paying £303 per month over 4yrs. That is either a very low settlement figure which is usually related to the future value or the interest rate is very high.
I very much doubt there will be anywhere near £10k equity in the car for a deposit for another car.
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What you are neglecting to take into account is that in order to purchase an EV equivalent car you would NEED to spend the extra cash on the monthly payments to cover the additional cost of the EV in the first place over the ICE car.
In so doing you have finally come to the conclusion that buying and running an EV is not cheaper than an ICE, a point that has been evading you for some time, got there in the end though.
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And at 150K mileage the battery will be toast, probably before that actually.
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True life Miami to Orlando by conventional car about 4 hours. By a Tesla 6 hours. It had four people in it had to stop and recharge a couple of times. We are given figures and people who own these cars experience. But we don’t all drive the same way or distance. Not sure we are ready for this technology yet
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If a basic 24kWh Leaf can do 150K miles on the same battery, a car that looks after its bigger battery will do the miles easily.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2014/5/8/nissan-leaf-taxi-hits-150-000-miles/52361/
Well, your 150k comes from comparing Volvo V40 with e-Golf, your baseline is flawed, sorry. I'm not sure where you got £37k price of the e-Golf.
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/assets/common/pdf/pricelists/golf-pricelist.pdf
VW Golf pricelist lists e-Golf as £30,340 OTR and Golf GTD auto (which doesn't have CarNet, does have LED headlight and digital dashboard) OTR price is £30,775.
Interest rate is 4.9%. Settlement figure is £17,156. PCP payment of £303, £10,000 deposit.
BMW 330e OTR cash price £39,275:
Interest rate is 4.9%, Settlement figure is £13,283. PCP payment of £373, £12,317 deposit. (BMW calculator: https://offers.bmw.co.uk/finance-offers/result/?offerCode=912249db-53fa-4bea-9edd-1ffa1aab0a6d)
Residue value looks healthy, interest rate seems in-line with others.
Fixed it for you
That is my point. You can afford to spend more on the car itself, paying extra cash on the monthly payment to cover the additional cost of EV because of the fuel savings.
I have never said buying an EV is cheaper. But buying and running an EV could be cheaper than equivalent well equipped ICE car, if you can make it work (driveways, etc)
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4.9% still isn't a good rate. Plenty of manufacturers offer 0% or below 2% and can make a big difference to repayments. £10K -12K deposit it a large amount of money to have to save in the first place, never see again, and you are going to be needing to save most of that again for your next deposit in 4yrs time whilst still making your car payments.
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BMW previously shown to be 4.9%.
3 series 330e OTR cash price £39,275:
Interest rate is 4.9%, Settlement figure is £13,283. PCP payment of £373, £12,317 deposit.
Mercedes C-class is even worse at 5.7%. This is not a calculator so I can't get a comparable figure over 48 months https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/pas...Offer_headline_cta_060619&csref=mbcom_w205_pc
Audi A4 is also 4.9%. https://www.audi.co.uk/quote-my-audi.html#/wizard/finance
The A4 48 month finance with a 40 TDI S-line at £37,870 is as follow:
Interest rate is 4.9%, Settlement figure is £13,790. PCP payment of £384, £10,000 deposit
Jaguar is better at 3.9%. https://www.jaguar.co.uk/offers-and...e_k20__4kwqn__a-20p-250a_a-sp3_a-swb_a-x760__
The XE P250 auto HSE spec is £38,535, 48 month finance:
Interest rate is 3.9%, Settlement figure is £12,962. PCP payment of £280, £10,026 deposit
Tesla Model 3 SR+, putting it here to keep it in same post, costs £40,000
Interest rate is 4.9%. Settlement figure is £17,156. PCP payment of £303, £10,000 deposit.
So interest rate is similar at 4.9%, with Merc higher, Jag lower.
Deposit and the money spent never going to be seen is going to be the same on any of car on PCP.
Deposit is something that has to be calculated together with the monthly price to make comparisons if it's different. Putting down zero deposit and paying £500 per month is equivalent to £10,000 deposit and paying £291 per month, for example. I think your previously mentioned total cost of PCP over the period is a good way to compare.
So, in summary. Over 48 months, on finance:
BMW 330e costing £39,275 would cost £30,221
Audi A4 40 TDI S-line costing £37,870 would cost £28,432
Tesla Model 3 SR+ costing £40,000 would cost £24,544
Jag XE P250 HSE costing £38,535 would cost £23,466
Then, there's fuel costs. Over 40k miles:
BMW 330e costing £39,275 would cost £30,221 + £1000 to over £4000, depend on percentage of electric-only miles.
Audi A4 40 TDI S-line costing £37,870 would cost £28,432 + ~£4000 for diesel
Tesla Model 3 SR+ costing £40,000 would cost £24,544 + ~£1000 for electric
Jag XE P250 HSE costing £38,535 would cost £23,466 + more than £4000 for petrol
It seems Model 3 might be cheaper than cheapest of the compact executives to own and run....... depends on exact amount of more expensive insurance, more expensive tyres, £310*3 luxury car tax, etc.
If you are driving as company car, Tesla has zero BIK in comparison to high level of BIK for other cars, including the plug-in hybrid.
My point is, if someone has £22000 to spend over 48 months on finance of ICE car (eg. family class Golf GTI), with EV fuel savings, they can afford to spend more on the car itself and buy a class higher, the Tesla Model 3.
Although looking at similar cars, the EV is only very slightly more expensive to buy......
VW calculator: https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/financ...ustomerType=personal&paymentBreakdown=deposit
10,000 annual miles, 36 months, £4000 deposit:
e-Golf cash price £30,340.00, PCP monthly £403.33
Golf GT 2.0 TDI auto (no GTD in the calculator) cash price £27,805.00, PCP monthly £401.96
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The report says its FLEET of Nissan Leafs have passed the 150K mark, not an individual car, it took delivery of its first 12 months ago and now has 5, so on average 30K miles per car, do please read things properly. It also says they only use it to do trips of 40 miles or less, what a ringing endorsement for an EV, not.
150K miles for an average person will be 10/12/15 yeas, probably a lot more, way past any guarantee and as I said previously probably well below best condition if not totally useless by that time, but this is irrelevant unless your stated break even point is at 150K miles and even that relies on using todays metrics for "fuel", running costs, taxes etc. You simply cant rely on those for the next 10 years to predict what will be cheaper to own and run.
We have 10 employee, each with 30 years experience, so we have 300 years of experience, not that one employee has 300 years experience. I have driven for 50 years done approx. 18K miles per year oddly enough my current car hasn't done 900,000 miles (in total they all have), could I therefore quote like the Cornwall cab company that in 900,000 miles I haven't changed a clutch, so can I extrapolate from that (as you have done) that every clutch in an ICE lasts 900,000 miles?
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Why is there always someone who insists on spoiling these threads by inserting facts into them...so can I extrapolate from that (as you have done) that every clutch in an ICE lasts 900,000 miles?
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Sorry, I quoted the wrong article.
Wizzy, the single Nissan Leaf have completed 100k miles when this article was written: http://www.electriccardriver.co.uk/wizzy-the-100000-mile-electric-taxi/
Wizzy was required at 170k miles. Only "lost 26%" battery capacity. View: https://BANNED/candctaxis/status/821651868862545921?lang=en
The fact remains: A single Leaf with 24kWh can do over 150k miles without trouble. That is well over 1500 charge cycles. It is said to still have over 60 miles of range left, far from
The 150k miles breakeven is calculated using outdated EV price against a cheaper car. See my above post, e-Golf is already similarly priced to comparable Golf GTD. Model 3 is already similarly priced to 4 other compact exec.
Wizzy, the single Nissan Leaf have completed 100k miles when this article was written: http://www.electriccardriver.co.uk/wizzy-the-100000-mile-electric-taxi/
Wizzy was required at 170k miles. Only "lost 26%" battery capacity. View: https://BANNED/candctaxis/status/821651868862545921?lang=en
The fact remains: A single Leaf with 24kWh can do over 150k miles without trouble. That is well over 1500 charge cycles. It is said to still have over 60 miles of range left, far from
The 150k miles breakeven is calculated using outdated EV price against a cheaper car. See my above post, e-Golf is already similarly priced to comparable Golf GTD. Model 3 is already similarly priced to 4 other compact exec.
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Mondeo Vignale is in the premium brand market. You can have a hybrid estate model for £10k deposit and £195 / month over 38 months and 12k miles a year allowance all on 0% finance. Reduce the deposit to £6k sees the monthly payment rise to £300/ month over 38 months 12k miles per annum.
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May I quote
1 Swallow a Summer does not make.
or maybe
Trigger's broom?
So at 174K miles it's down to 70% which in real terms during a winter would be useless as you cant venture more than probably 15/20 miles from home unless you know you are going to be able to charge it away from home, maybe a bigger battery would give you greater distance when down to 70% but in real terms who's going to buy a 2nd hand EV with a range of 70% of its original. So they have run an EV with minimal maintenance costs but will now be hit with a virtually worthless car and the associated depreciation that a diesel simply wont suffer. Running costs should reflect this.
AN EV cannot be justified on costs, other things maybe but cost isn't one of them.
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Sorry, must be the Engineer in me.Why is there always someone who insists on spoiling these threads by inserting facts into them...
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Indeed. It's one data point amongst a large amount of variables. Here's a few more data points for high mileage EV's:
350k Model X? https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/28/350000-miles-in-a-tesla-model-x-just-18000-in-maintenance/
Crowd sourced data from 350 owners suggest "The trend line currently suggests that the average battery pack could cycle through over 300,000 km (186,000) before coming close to 90% capacity." for Model S.
https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/
All data points to busting the misconception that EV battery will "be toast" at high mileage.
Time, however, is a different question and one we'll have to wait and see. I personally think time has more effect on EV battery than mileage. If you had said "at 15 years, the battery may be toast" it would have closer to the truth.
Sorry, must be the chartered engineer in me.
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It would be interesting to see if different environments played a part in batter life too e.g. do they degrade quicker or maybe slower in say a cold location? I wonder if Tesla (or anyone for that matter) have investigated that?
Chartered - ooh er!! Get her!
They didn't do "Chartered" when I started out, well they did but only for toffs. ;-)
Chartered - ooh er!! Get her!
They didn't do "Chartered" when I started out, well they did but only for toffs. ;-)
dod
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not sure if anyone has posted this, trials on smart charging. This could/should improve the economics.
https://www.edie.net/news/8/UK-Powe...wsletter, 296a814d83-dailynewsletter_COPY_596
https://www.edie.net/news/8/UK-Powe...wsletter, 296a814d83-dailynewsletter_COPY_596
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I know early 2011 to 2013 Leaf battery suffered really badly in hotter American states. A lot of them (anecdotal) even triggered warranty replacements. Norway could probably provide data on how well battery held up in cold, not seen reports of early excess degradation though.
There had been multiple spy shots of a lot of manufacturers taking their new cars, including EV, to do tests in snow and cold temperature. Not sure whether that would test long term battery degradation though.
From 2013, all Leaf battery worldwide had new chemistry that had improved longevity and heat tolerance. This is known as Gen 2 Leaf within the 24kWh Leaf community, or lizard battery. These battery seems to last very long, anecdotal data on forum suggests ~15% degradation (when the first health bar disappears) after ~5 years. Currently not enough data for when the next bar would be gone. 85% over 11 bars suggest 7.7% per bar.
Nice one. Although a lot of price conscious EV drivers are already receiving "incentives" by using Economy 7 or EV specific time-of-use electricity tariff.
What smart charging could do, is to allow mass of connected batteries to be used to store excess renewable energy, so wind turbines no longer need to get paid to not generate.
https://www.ref.org.uk/ref-blog/348-constraint-payments-to-wind-farms-in-2018
If just half of "134,000 vehicles in 2017" (edie article) were able to receive additional 1kWh when required, that's 67MWh of excess capacity storage available.
So for example, you have a 50kWh 200 miles car, you drive ~25kWh 100 miles everyday. You charge to 90% 45kWh everyday*, with 2kWh made available for "grid services", such as receiving free electricity or be used for peak demands. So every morning*, you could have anything between 43kWh or 47kWh. No big deal because you only need 25kWh for your 100 miles daily drive.
Further possibility when you get home with 15kWh left (for example), plug in* and your house becomes battery powered. You will remove any strain on the grid during peak times (likely most expensive price). Use 5-10kWh of your battery for oven/kettle/evening entertainment. Then overnight your car recharges using cheapest off peak electricity.
Essentially, with smart V2G technology, your EV becomes your personal energy capsule.
(* driveway required)
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Tesla now publishes their internal data as port of "safety report":
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/VehicleSafetyReport
The vehicle fire data we must be careful. The US NFPA data is from vehicles of all ages. Oldest Tesla data they have is from 2012, 7 year old cars.
Unfortunately this data is not as exciting as isolated fires on new types of vehicle. So mass media doesn't report on this.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/VehicleSafetyReport
Sounds like Tesla drivers are just more careful drivers. But comparing Autopilot vs non Autopilot, there is a clear decrease in accidents per mile driven when autonomous features were used.
The vehicle fire data we must be careful. The US NFPA data is from vehicles of all ages. Oldest Tesla data they have is from 2012, 7 year old cars.
Unfortunately this data is not as exciting as isolated fires on new types of vehicle. So mass media doesn't report on this.
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Does the data include near misses or just crashes? I was watching a compilation video on Facebook, of people losing control of their cars, mostly after a daft manoeuvre or as a result of someone else doing stupid. But there was dash cam footage from a Tesla on Autopilot on a winding mountain road, the driver had to grab the wheel and swerve left as his Tesla had failed to take a bend and was about to take him off down the mountain side. There are other videos of Tesla's trying to steer into central reservations on straight roads.
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You can read their report for yourself. I don't have any more information beyond what's been reported by their report, sorry.
All those problems are part of the reason why it is a driver aid system, not full autonomous system. Like every other driver aid system on the market, you are still in full control. I have confidence other ACC, AEB and lane assistive system will have similar stats if they were collected and published.
But difference for the Tesla system is they will improve overtime. With each OTA update there are more edge cases that get covered, you don't have to buy a new car to get this improvement.
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