Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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What about the ~60% of energy wasted as heat or sound by the internal combustion engine?

Petrol engine getting 40% efficient is news worthy and world leading apparently:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-toyota-20-litre-petrol-engine-world’s-‘most-thermally-efficient’


I just learnt Westminster have great EV incentive. Pay for 10min to park for 4 hours anywhere in their council controlled zone.
https://www.westminster.gov.uk/electric-vehicles.

I certainly am not going to get stressed over losing thermal energy.
40% thermal efficiency isn't the most efficient. Go back and try harder.
I, like most people, have no reason to park in Westminster. I parked my car in London a few months back prepaid for the space and regardless of how the car is powered it cost me £1.82 for 6hrs. Now if that isn't a good incentive to avoid using London Transport, I don't know what is.
 
Ford released news of the Mustang inspired SUV long before anyone was aware of the VW ID-R. You only have to look at the number of EV cars on the road before the recent surge to realise people just weren't interested.
People weren't interested because:
The change to EV will require consumer education, people don't like change, when presented with choices without explaining the benefit of change, people will not change.

Tesla have done education by being in the media spotlight and doing many things differently. VW are doing now with their ID-R records. Jag have done with their PR stunts when I-Pace came out. Porsche are doing with their Taycan.
Releasing news of upcoming vehicle without even picture of the car will not educate people why they will want the car.

Also, VW ID R made its debut on June 24, 2018. When was the Ford SUV announced?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_I.D._R

Where does a car get its energy? It's fuel. You said you don't like braking because it is burning the energy you have paid for. You have paid for the fuel. So in other words you think it is burning fuel.
Yet, you were going on about how braking does not burn fuel. Meaning you do not understand the concept of energy transformation.

A lot of the kinetic energy remains in the engine keeping it turning. It also recharges the battery. It isn't wasted as much as you believe. The rest is used to slow the car.
Please do explain how the car's forward kinetic energy is used to slow the car.

If a lot of kinetic energy remains in the engine, this only suggests the amount of inefficiency in the engine.

The 12v battery is usually no bigger than 1kWh. It is usually kept at high state of charge, meaning it can accept no where near 1kWh. It does not have the ability to hold enough energy to slow down the vehicle sufficiently.

The only place kinetic energy can go when engine braking is work done against the engine internal resistance (heat), a very small amount get converted to charge 12v battery.
 
People weren't interested because:

Releasing news of upcoming vehicle without even picture of the car will not educate people why they will want the car.

Also, VW ID R made its debut on June 24, 2018. When was the Ford SUV announced?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_I.D._R


Yet, you were going on about how braking does not burn fuel. Meaning you do not understand the concept of energy transformation.


Please do explain how the car's forward kinetic energy is used to slow the car.

If a lot of kinetic energy remains in the engine, this only suggests the amount of inefficiency in the engine.

The 12v battery is usually no bigger than 1kWh. It is usually kept at high state of charge, meaning it can accept no where near 1kWh. It does not have the ability to hold enough energy to slow down the vehicle sufficiently.

The only place kinetic energy can go when engine braking is work done against the engine internal resistance (heat), a very small amount get converted to charge 12v battery.
I will repeat again.
Ford released details of the number of cars they would be releasing in 2016/17. This news stated plans for electric and hybrid vehicles 16 of which will be fully electric. This news release included a few details of an electric F Series truck that could be used to power tools and small plant machinery on building sites. The news release also included an SUV inspired by the Mustang.
In September 2018 Ford released a teaser photo of the back end of the vehicle and every now and then drip feed snippets of information.
Ford keep full details etc. close to their chest until the time is right to release them. Take the 2016 Ford GT for instance, they kept that so quiet, there was less than 20 people in the world that knew about it prior to it being launched. Applications to buy, were way above the planned production run.
No one outside of Ford were aware of a mk3 Focus RS being in development in 2013. In 2014 test mules based on Focus ST's were photographed at the Nurburgring. Which started to make it hard to deny that a car was planned and under development. The media started to get excited and so did prospective buyers. Lots of rumours flying about and everyone was pretty much settled on the idea of around 300bhp and fwd. You can imagine their surprise when the official launch day arrived in 2015 and it was revealed the car would produce 300PS and have an intelligent AWD system.
Same goes for the 1.0 3 cylinder Ecoboost engine. When it was first unveiled at a motor show in 2010/11, VW were about to unveil their own 3 cylinder 1.0 engine. Not only had Ford got the jump on VW, but VW realised the Ford engine was much better, VW scrapped the launch of their engine to go away and improve it.
It doesn't pay always to be too early with news and details. Sometimes you just need to drip feed little bits of info and pictures. Tesla obviously like the idea as they have been doing the exact same thing with their pick up truck.

I take it being a chartered engineer doesn't require any sort of intelligence.
Braking doesn't burn fuel. The injectors shut off, no fuel goes into the combustion chambers. How hard is that to understand. When the engine is firing, the clutch engaged and the car is in gear, the kinetic energy is transferred to the wheels and the vehicle moves, take your foot off the accelerator and allow the car to engine brake or apply the brake yourself and the injectors will shut off but the rotation of the wheels will keep the engine turning by transferring kinetic energy back into it again. When the engine revs become too low the injectors start injecting fuel again.
 
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Braking doesn't burn fuel. The injectors shut off, no fuel goes into the combustion chambers. How hard is that to understand. When the engine is firing, the clutch engaged and the car is in gear, the kinetic energy is transferred to the wheels and the vehicle moves, take your foot off the accelerator and allow the car to engine brake or apply the brake yourself and the injectors will shut off but the rotation of the wheels will keep the engine turning by transferring kinetic energy back into it again. When the engine revs become too low the injectors start injecting fuel again.


"Engine braking" in an EV effectively creates fuel - far more than is possible in an ICE doing the same thing. You'd need one hell of a big flywheel to get anywhere close!
 
Yes, I was wrong. Referral programs is a form of marketing, so Tesla did spend on marketing.

But I'm sorry. I feel other manufacturer's spend is still very relevant to the discussion:
I said Model 3 sold well without marketing, you corrected me and said they have spent $30mil on referral programs (how much of that is specifically for Model 3 is unknown). Building on the information you've provided (without reference though) I then re-enforced my point by pointing out $30 million is tiny compared to what other manufactures are spending.

So, in summary, Model 3 had much smaller marketing spend, yet selling better than cars in similar class.

Neither you nor I know how much Tesla spend on marketing, it may well be a lot less than other car manufacturers as they seem to be engaging their customers to spread the word, you only need to browse Youtube to see the many vloggers putting out Tesla content and touting their referral codes. Not a bad strategy really and shows a willingness to try something different.

Which cars are in the same class as the Model 3 that it is out selling?
The Model 3 doesn't appear in the top 25 cars sold in the US this year, although there are a high percentage of SUV's and Pickups which are not really the Model 3's competition.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/res...icles-in-america-—-2019-q1/ss-BBVCmLN#image=1

This link has more of a breakdown, some look good for the Model 3 in the monthly sales which looks like it correlates to Tesla's production ramp up. What I'd really like to see is the figures for the new orders in the last few months not the pre-order deliveries. Only time will tell on that front.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/us-vehicle-sales-figures-by-model/
 
In the USA, it seems new car buyers are deserting 'sedans' in favour of pickup trucks & SUVs. In the UK sales seem to be dominated by small to medium sized cars, in neither case does Tesla (or other EV makers) offer much by way of affordable choice to these customers.

As owners of a diesel SUV (caravan towcar) and a small petrol convertible who do below average UK annual mileage I don't see anything yet that will encourage us to change.
 
... There is no point in bringing products to market if the market isn't big enough or doesn't exist at all.

Unless you intend to disrupt the market, like, let me see, hmm, maybe, ummm,
Tesla?
 
"Engine braking" in an EV effectively creates fuel - far more than is possible in an ICE doing the same thing. You'd need one hell of a big flywheel to get anywhere close!
I never said or implied that ice engine braking created fuel. I just stated that it doesn't use any.
 
In the USA, it seems new car buyers are deserting 'sedans' in favour of pickup trucks & SUVs.
USA new car buyers have favoured pick up trucks for the last 42 years. Sales of SUV's have been taking over from sedans.
 
Unless you intend to disrupt the market, like, let me see, hmm, maybe, ummm,
Tesla?
I have just been reading an article via Facebook from an EV online magazine, as it came through as a suggested site I can't find it again, but it was asking when we can expect the full reveal of the Tesla pick up. It is expected to happen around October. But the author of the article wrote that from what Musk has been saying about the truck and the F150 it is aimed at, Tesla will finally have a vehicle to disrupt the industry. So from the "pen" of an EV advocate, Tesla haven't disrupted anything yet.

Found the article.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/2...months-away-while-ford-impresses-joe-sixpack/
 
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No surcharge for recent diesels. This sounds like London "govt" think they are clean enough, for now.
Oh I love how you twist and wriggle your views. When I suggested tax and electric prices or road fund licence may go up in future for EV you categorically stated there was no way that could happen, yet here you are stating "for now" in relation to diesel surcharge, so clearly pricing and savings cannot be guaranteed for any vehicle as neither you nor I know what changes lie ahead.
 
I think it's inevitable that EV drivers will have to share the burden of vehicle taxation in the future; the UK Government will not give up on the fuel duty, VED, VAT it currently takes from motorists at present. I would expect some form of mileage tax or road toll fees and possibly increased VAT on energy bills to replace the £29 billion fuel duty if & when EVs replace ICE powered vehicles.
 
Neither you nor I know how much Tesla spend on marketing, it may well be a lot less than other car manufacturers as they seem to be engaging their customers to spread the word, you only need to browse Youtube to see the many vloggers putting out Tesla content and touting their referral codes. Not a bad strategy really and shows a willingness to try something different.

Which cars are in the same class as the Model 3 that it is out selling?
The Model 3 doesn't appear in the top 25 cars sold in the US this year, although there are a high percentage of SUV's and Pickups which are not really the Model 3's competition.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/research-guides/best-selling-vehicles-in-america-—-2019-q1/ss-BBVCmLN#image=1

This link has more of a breakdown, some look good for the Model 3 in the monthly sales which looks like it correlates to Tesla's production ramp up. What I'd really like to see is the figures for the new orders in the last few months not the pre-order deliveries. Only time will tell on that front.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/us-vehicle-sales-figures-by-model/
There must be a reason for customers wanting to shout from the roof tops about their cars. With the recent end of referral program, I don't think there will be less videos promoting Tesla cars.

The Model 3 is best selling in its class, source here (though from Tesla):



Oh I love how you twist and wriggle your views. When I suggested tax and electric prices or road fund licence may go up in future for EV you categorically stated there was no way that could happen, yet here you are stating "for now" in relation to diesel surcharge, so clearly pricing and savings cannot be guaranteed for any vehicle as neither you nor I know what changes lie ahead.
You are very much mistaken with your memory. I had never twisted or wiggled my views.

I have never said EV will escape tax or road fun license. I only said EV will not get penalised on exhaust emissions like ULEZ on 5 years old diesels. In fact, many pages ago, I had proposed (I think fair) way of taxing EV based on its battery size (the biggest source of pollution during production) and putting tax on quick chargers (50kW+) that is only used by people driving long distances.

The "for now" comment is due to changing regulations. Euro 6 is considered clean for now. But when there is deeper market penetration from zero exhaust emission vehicles, all vehicles with exhaust emissions could then be considered dirty. It's a moving goalpost, and you know it.
 
Here, ladies and gentlemen, is a twist and wriggler. First cannot read, now is ignoring the regenerative braking advantages.

First, he questioned why would EV burn fuel when braking? Without reading my original comment:
Why would your EV be burning energy when you brake anyway, ICE cars don't burn fuel when you brake, ICE
Then, claimed regenerative braking is present in pure ICE vehicles in form of turning the engine:
You get regenerative braking even when you put your foot on the brake. In an ICE regardless of whether you take your foot off the accelerator or touch the brake to slow, you are not burning any fuel, the injectors have shut off and the engine is just motoring being driven by the road wheels.
Also claim there is no energy transfer into heat by using engine braking:
It doesn't burn fuel. It also doesn't generate heat in an engine block, it will lose heat as there is no combustion.
Finally, when quested this post:
A lot of the kinetic energy remains in the engine keeping it turning. It also recharges the battery. It isn't wasted as much as you believe. The rest is used to slow the car.
How does forward kinetic energy is used to slow forward motion of the car? Niel, here decided to repeat the basic concept he memorised, does not try to think of what's been said and work it out using basic principles studied by every teenager: conservation of energy.
Braking doesn't burn fuel. The injectors shut off, no fuel goes into the combustion chambers. How hard is that to understand. When the engine is firing, the clutch engaged and the car is in gear, the kinetic energy is transferred to the wheels and the vehicle moves, take your foot off the accelerator and allow the car to engine brake or apply the brake yourself and the injectors will shut off but the rotation of the wheels will keep the engine turning by transferring kinetic energy back into it again. When the engine revs become too low the injectors start injecting fuel again.

I'll just say 2 thing:
- EV Regenerative braking that gains you energy rather than vast majority is burnt away as heat in pure ICE cars is much better.
- EV regenerative braking is very configurable. To the point where you can lift off throttle and gain same amount of braking force as changing down 2/3 gears instantly. I was laughed at when I pointed this out many pages ago when I drove a manual courtesy car, people saying slowing down should use brakes (to burn the energy as heat and produce brake dust)
Want to slow down with engine braking? change down.
Your comment about engine braking is laughable. The brakes on the car are there to slow it down, the engine is to make it go. Changing down to increase engine braking is absurd.




Now, when Ford is finally making noises on their EV pickup trucks. Neil spins the story that you need to make pickup trucks to disrupt a global industry:
I have just been reading an article via Facebook from an EV online magazine, as it came through as a suggested site I can't find it again, but it was asking when we can expect the full reveal of the Tesla pick up. It is expected to happen around October. But the author of the article wrote that from what Musk has been saying about the truck and the F150 it is aimed at, Tesla will finally have a vehicle to disrupt the industry. So from the "pen" of an EV advocate, Tesla haven't disrupted anything yet.

Found the article.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/2...months-away-while-ford-impresses-joe-sixpack/
I wonder, what is the percentage of pickup trucks in comparison to total global personal transport (inc pickup, vans, cars, ex lorries, buses) sales. What is percentage of passenger cars?
 
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The Model 3 is best selling in its class, source here (though from Tesla):
How many more times are you going to post that crap? Your previous link about the Bloomberg estimate showed a graph of Tesla registrations in America, using Tesla's own figures and they are still clearing the backlog on pre orders. The graph clearly stacks up with Tesla's quotes of ramping up production to acceptable levels that this "best selling" is just people finally getting their cars en mass.
 
Tesla were the first as far as I can see to offer a vehicle that was desirable and had reasonable range. Just a pity it wasn't affordable. It's my opinion that if they hadn't the traditional manufacturers would simply have continued to ignore the market, but I'll quickly concede, it's an opinion. Prior to that the only vehicle which was remotely in the public eye was the Prius.

This is the other issue. My wife loves her Mini, it's only an R56 One, but she loves the look. We tried smaller cars, but they all felt cheap inside, even the VW. She's no petrolhead, but she does like here cars to look good, sadly almost all small EV's fail in this respect. She won't even try an I3, but may be interested in the new Mini E.

However, now we have just moved to the countryside we will have to see what our driving is like for the next few months before we can make any decisions.
 
Here, ladies and gentlemen, is a twist and wriggler. First cannot read, now is ignoring the regenerative braking advantages.

First, he questioned why would EV burn fuel when braking? Without reading my original comment:

Then, claimed regenerative braking is present in pure ICE vehicles in form of turning the engine:

Also claim there is no energy transfer into heat by using engine braking:

Finally, when quested this post:

How does forward kinetic energy is used to slow forward motion of the car? Niel, here decided to repeat the basic concept he memorised, does not try to think of what's been said and work it out using basic principles studied by every teenager: conservation of energy.


I'll just say 2 thing:
- EV Regenerative braking that gains you energy rather than vast majority is burnt away as heat in pure ICE cars is much better.
- EV regenerative braking is very configurable. To the point where you can lift off throttle and gain same amount of braking force as changing down 2/3 gears instantly. I was laughed at when I pointed this out many pages ago when I drove a manual courtesy car, people saying slowing down should use brakes (to burn the energy as heat and produce brake dust)






Now, when Ford is finally making noises on their EV pickup trucks. Neil spins the story that you need to make pickup trucks to disrupt a global industry:

I wonder, what is the percentage of pickup trucks in comparison to total global personal transport (inc pickup, vans, cars, ex lorries, buses) sales. What is percentage of passenger cars?
You really do need to learn how to read and comprehend what it says. I never said ice had regenerative braking. I said the alternator recharges the battery under such conditions. That isn't the same as recharging an EV battery as a 12v battery isn't an ICE cars source of fuel.

When an engine isn't firing it cools down, there all that is being ignited is the air in the combustion chamber, air doesn't burn very well without the fuel and as such combustion temperatures fall. The engine block is still being cooled by the coolant and oil passing through it. The thermocouples that measure engine temperatures that I am monitoring every working day are proof of this.

When engine braking the kinetic energy is transferred into the engine, tyres have rolling resistance and because the engine is now no longer powered that resistance slows the car.
If you disengage the clutch, the car will still stop.

If regenerative braking is the same as dropping a couple of gears to slow down, you really need to learn how to drive properly and plan ahead. Just backing off early enough if you are actually watching the road is all that is required, you can carry enough speed whilst checking for traffic and get back up to speed with minimal effort being put back into the engine and burn little fuel. If regen braking is like dropping a couple of gears you will be using a lot of the regen energy to get back up to speed again.
Firstly Ford announced their plans for an EV pick up years ago. I have made no spin on it at all. An EV advocate, himself, said that the Tesla pick up would be the disruptor, not me.
The F Series truck is still a passenger vehicle, most trucks bought are in the crew cab configuration. But as you are trying to point out, pick up truck sales only play a percentage part of world car sales. But if you want some statistics.
Tesla world sales 2018 approx. 243k vehicles which includes, Models S, X and 3.
Ford F Series USA sales (Not world sales) 2018 909k vehicles. That is F Series trucks alone, no other vehicles included.
Tesla World sales 2019 Q1+Q2 249k vehicles. (All models)
Ford F Series USA sales 2019 Q1+Q2 448k vehicles. (F Series only)
Top selling vehicle UK 2018 Ford Fiesta 95+k vehicles.
Total alternative fuel vehicle sales 2018 including hybrid, plug in hybrid and full electric from all manufacturers 141k vehicles.
 
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How many more times are you going to post that crap? Your previous link about the Bloomberg estimate showed a graph of Tesla registrations in America, using Tesla's own figures and they are still clearing the backlog on pre orders. The graph clearly stacks up with Tesla's quotes of ramping up production to acceptable levels that this "best selling" is just people finally getting their cars en mass.
Just answering a question that was has been directly asked. The link provides information on which car Tesla considered to be same class to Model 3.

You are welcome to take Bloomberg source as "still clearing backlog" and live in your bubble of latching on every possible bad news about Tesla. But there are multiple anecdotal stories that have claimed to have ordered the car and received within weeks (some even days), in the US and mainland Europe. That doesn't sound like "still clearing backlog". Being stories, I won't put a claim on they have or have not cleared their backlog, because we don't know without a PR.

When an engine isn't firing it cools down, there all that is being ignited is the air in the combustion chamber, air doesn't burn very well without the fuel and as such combustion temperatures fall. The engine block is still being cooled by the coolant and oil passing through it. The thermocouples that measure engine temperatures that I am monitoring every working day are proof of this.

When engine braking the kinetic energy is transferred into the engine, tyres have rolling resistance and because the engine is now no longer powered that resistance slows the car.
See, you are simply stating what you see, not working out the science from first principle. Yes, the engine may cool down as result of no combustion. BUT vehicle kinetic energy is being converted into heat in the engine block as result of doing work against resistance in the engine. As you've put there (bold).

If regenerative braking is the same as dropping a couple of gears to slow down, you really need to learn how to drive properly and plan ahead. Just backing off early enough if you are actually watching the road is all that is required, you can carry enough speed whilst checking for traffic and get back up to speed with minimal effort being put back into the engine and burn little fuel. If regen braking is like dropping a couple of gears you will be using a lot of the regen energy to get back up to speed again.
Are you saying you can drive without ever touching the brake? Do you live in an empty country with zero traffic or junctions?

Do go and drive an EV with an open mind, spend sometime get used to one pedal driving. It feels more natural than engine braking in high gears (eg. the gear you'd be in when maintaining constant speed for economy) Once you've mastered one pedal driving, driving in traffic actually becomes very easy.

But yes, constantly changing speed by regen and speeding up is not efficient. Most efficient way to drive is to coast. A practice illegal in ICE cars UK but not illegal with EV. In ICE car to coast, you will have to decouple the engine, which means loosing ability to instantly regain power (something along those lines were reason given in highway code). In EV, you can balance the throttle to not energise the motor and thus coast, or in some cars you can decrease re-gen amount to 0.

The F Series truck is still a passenger vehicle, most trucks bought are in the crew cab configuration. But as you are trying to point out, pick up truck sales only play a percentage part of world car sales. But if you want some statistics.
Tesla world sales 2018 approx. 243k vehicles which includes, Models S, X and 3.
Ford F Series USA sales (Not world sales) 2018 909k vehicles. That is F Series trucks alone, no other vehicles included.
Tesla World sales 2019 Q1+Q2 249k vehicles. (All models)
Ford F Series USA sales 2019 Q1+Q2 448k vehicles. (F Series only)
More twists and turns, comparing one pickup truck series stat against a young car manufacturer. Deliberately avoid answering the question.
Why don't you tell us Ford world wide vehicle sales and Ford pickup truck world wide sales number? What percentage is pickup compared to all vehicle sales?
But then, we know Ford F series is a popular pickup, so it would be safe to say Ford pickup percentage is going to be higher than data from all manufacturers world wide.

One thing for sure, I've not seen many pickup trucks in UK, mainland Europe and China. The last one is said to be fastest growing car market.

So please stop focusing on pickup trucks, or EV's we can't buy on this island.
 
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You are very much mistaken with your memory. I had never twisted or wiggled my views.

I have never said EV will escape tax or road fun license. I only said EV will not get penalised on exhaust emissions like ULEZ on 5 years old diesels. In fact, many pages ago, I had proposed (I think fair) way of taxing EV based on its battery size (the biggest source of pollution during production) and putting tax on quick chargers (50kW+) that is only used by people driving long distances.

The "for now" comment is due to changing regulations. Euro 6 is considered clean for now. But when there is deeper market penetration from zero exhaust emission vehicles, all vehicles with exhaust emissions could then be considered dirty. It's a moving goalpost, and you know it.

So you never said "electricity prices for EV will never be raised above normal electricity prices" - your reasoning being that if they are charged at home you will pay the same price as any other electricity you use because the technology (at present - my words) doesn't exist to differentiate.
I suggested there were many ways EV could pay extra, annual mileage check and a fee per mile was one example.
In your post above you now recognise "for now" as being a valid statement in respect to pollution charging in London that could change and yet still you believe that EV "fuel" will continue to be "cheap" by comparison to fossil fuels, when you know as much as I do that no-one can guarantee that, if that were the case why is it the Govt is guaranteeing the nuclear industry much higher price per unit that the current price. In my view electricity will get more expensive (although if a miracle were to happen it might get cheaper, I certainly cant claim more expensive as a fact) so EV running costs will escalate and your continued belief that they are cheaper to run will be false.
 
So you never said "electricity prices for EV will never be raised above normal electricity prices" - your reasoning being that if they are charged at home you will pay the same price as any other electricity you use because the technology (at present - my words) doesn't exist to differentiate.
I suggested there were many ways EV could pay extra, annual mileage check and a fee per mile was one example.
In your post above you now recognise "for now" as being a valid statement in respect to pollution charging in London that could change and yet still you believe that EV "fuel" will continue to be "cheap" by comparison to fossil fuels, when you know as much as I do that no-one can guarantee that, if that were the case why is it the Govt is guaranteeing the nuclear industry much higher price per unit that the current price. In my view electricity will get more expensive (although if a miracle were to happen it might get cheaper, I certainly cant claim more expensive as a fact) so EV running costs will escalate and your continued belief that they are cheaper to run will be false.
For EV to be always be cheaper to run than ICE cars, it's a very low bar to clear........

Let me start by pointing out this is all speculation. Only concrete numbers are today's running costs, we already know today, EV are fast becoming cheaper to run. The other certain factor is that we can never escape tax. ;)

Unlike my "battery size tax + rapid charging tax" idea, your suggestion on per-mile fee will make EV more expensive is based on the assumption this will only apply to EV at current prices. This per-mile fee may be rolled out to all cars, which will not change EV to become more expensive to run than ICE cars. (also the tax need to bridge the per-mile difference, see last point)
In my post above, I recognise new ICE cars are considered clean for now. I maintain the belief that due to zero tailpipe emission nature of EV's, tailpipe emission based taxation like ULEZ will never be levied against EV's.
For EV fuel to cost similar to ICE, you'd need to increase current charging cost by ~4x. It's do-able but by that time, EV price may well be cheaper to purchase than ICE cars. You'd need to get from 2.5p per mile to 10p per mile for EV fuel to be more expensive than ICE cars. That translates to £750 per year on tax for 10k miles!

Electricity costs may go either way. As demand increases, there can be smart tariff to control peak demand. As non-peak demand increases, it would better utilise unclear power stations and thus price may not increase too much. As more cars are connected, V2G and home battery can help the grid infrastructure, not requiring expensive capacity upgrades. As renewables get even cheaper, we may never need to build another expensive centralised power station.


Of course, the opposite could happen. That is at very late stage of EV adoption (way after 2040), as fossil fuel demand drops so low, there could be a point where government decides fuel duty is no longer worth it and drops it. With low demand and no fuel duty, ICE cars would become very cheap to run, while government piles the tax on EV's.

But for the next few years, up to 2040 at least, I can't see tax used as disincentive against adoption of EV's.
 
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if that were the case why is it the Govt is guaranteeing the nuclear industry much higher price per unit that the current price. .
To guarantee capacity, nothing more nothing less. It ensures that new entrants get a rate of return that justifies them making the billions of investment required. That will increase prices to all customers, not just EV owners.

More info here if you're interested

However, looking at your reasoning it's quite feasible that energy for EV's could actually be reduced in price, relative to average prices, it gets complicated :). Would be very similar to the old restricted hours tariffs of the past only allowing charging at cheap rate periods. That makes it more advantageous to the grid and you get the benefit. Tie it up with a battery and who knows how cheap it could get ;)

It's already been shown that they can be cheaper to run, see my post earlier. It depends entirely on the circumstances as far as I can see.
 
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USA new car buyers have favoured pick up trucks


So, they don't buy CARS, they buy pick-ups instead.

Edited to correct typo.
 
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You are welcome to take Bloomberg source as "still clearing backlog" and live in your bubble of latching on every possible bad news about Tesla.

Are you saying you can drive without ever touching the brake? Do you live in an empty country with zero traffic or junctions?

Do go and drive an EV with an open mind, spend sometime get used to one pedal driving.

One thing for sure, I've not seen many pickup trucks in UK, mainland Europe and China. The last one is said to be fastest growing car market.

So please stop focusing on pickup trucks, or EV's we can't buy on this island.
FFS you were the one that provided the Bloomberg link to back up your claim that Tesla weren't still clearing the backlog. You were the one that claimed that Tesla had recieved it had recieved 400k pre orders for the Model 3. One graph in that Bloomberg article shows the number of Model 3's produced so far using Tesla's own figures. The total was less than 300k cars. The only person living in a bubble would be you. You can't accept cold hard facts. You were trying to make a false claim, I corrected it. Deal with it like a man and stop whingeing.

I didn't say I can drive without touching the brake, I just use the brake pedal sparingly. I allow the car to slow by engine braking, and dab the brake lightly to ensure correct speed or if I do actually have to stop. Observe the road properly, you can keep the car rolling when you approach a junction, if the road is clear, keep going, if the road isn't clear gentle pressure on the brakes will stop the car with very little dust.

On several occasions, I drove my sister in law's 66 plate leaf when she had it. Bloody awful car. About as good as driving a Bradshaw Personnel Carrier only quicker.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0b_UegIX6dMtFZuUDlZfIh
In fact the Bradshaw is more fun to drive.
I can't speak for China but if you haven't seen many pick up trucks in Europe or UK, you must have your head firmly up your arse.
Just last month alone 50.9k Ford Rangers were sold in Europe. You would have more chance of seeing one of them than an EV as only 44k Ev's were sold in total in Europe last month. As VW, Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi and other manufacturers sell pick up trucks in Europe, they are outselling Ev's by a big margin even though EV sales are on the increase.

Once the F150 is available as an EV, there is every chance it will be available in the UK, it has only been down to the fuel economy that has prevented many F Series trucks being sold in this country. But they have been sold in the past, in fact I know for a fact one will be in Norfolk this weekend. You may even see it in action on itv4 on Sunday, failing that it will be in Hampshire, a fortnight later, in Scotland a few weeks after that, then Northampton and then Kent. You will likely have to wait until March or April next year after that. Or if you are in Essex just outside the M25 you may catch a glimpse of another one, 6.7L V8 turbodiesel 450bhp and 935lb-ft of Torque. ;)
 
There must be a reason for customers wanting to shout from the roof tops about their cars. With the recent end of referral program, I don't think there will be less videos promoting Tesla cars.

The Model 3 is best selling in its class, source here (though from Tesla):

Yes, there will still be youtubers creating Tesla related content for as long as it generates subscribers, views, likes and shares as that is making them revenue.

Interesting quote from the Tesla 'model 3 is the best selling in class' link you provided:
“In Q2, Model 3 deliveries reached an all-time record of 77,634. Not only was Model 3 once again the best-selling premium vehicle in the US, outselling all of its gas-powered equivalents combined, this product also gained traction in other markets.”

Deliveries, not sales. These are the cars they had pre-orders for going back a couple of years, they are not current sales in the same way the other models in the same 'class' are.
A more accurate comparison would be if one of the competitors took orders for the last few years and then delivered them all in the last 6 months!

I'm still not sure which vehicles Tesla consider to be in the same class as the Model 3 though, the build quality issues they are having doesn't really make them premium cars in my opinion.
 
You are welcome to take Bloomberg source as "still clearing backlog" and live in your bubble of latching on every possible bad news about Tesla.

Are you saying you can drive without ever touching the brake? Do you live in an empty country with zero traffic or junctions?

Do go and drive an EV with an open mind, spend sometime get used to one pedal driving.

One thing for sure, I've not seen many pickup trucks in UK, mainland Europe and China. The last one is said to be fastest growing car market.

So please stop focusing on pickup trucks, or EV's we can't buy on this island.
FFS you were the one that provided the Bloomberg link to back up your claim that Tesla weren't still clearing the backlog. You were the one that claimed that Tesla had recieved it had recieved 400k pre orders for the Model 3. One graph in that Bloomberg article shows the number of Model 3's produced so far using Tesla's own figures. The total was less than 300k cars. The only person living in a bubble would be you. You can't accept cold hard facts. You were trying to make a false claim, I corrected it. Deal with it like a man and stop whingeing.

I didn't say I can drive without touching the brake, I just use the brake pedal sparingly. I allow the car to slow by engine braking, and dab the brake lightly to ensure correct speed or if I do actually have to stop. Observe the road properly, you can keep the car rolling when you approach a junction, if the road is clear, keep going, if the road isn't clear gentle pressure on the brakes will stop the car with very little dust.

On several occasions, I drove my sister in law's 66 plate leaf when she had it. Bloody awful car. About as good as driving a Bradshaw Personnel Carrier only quicker.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0b_UegIX6dMtFZuUDlZfIh
In fact the Bradshaw is more fun to drive.
I can't speak for China but if you haven't seen many pick up trucks in Europe or UK, you must have your head firmly up your arse.
Just last month alone 50.9k Ford Rangers were sold in Europe. You would have more chance of seeing one of them than an EV as only 44k Ev's were sold in total in Europe last month. As VW, Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi and other manufacturers sell pick up trucks in Europe, they are outselling Ev's by a big margin even though EV sales are on the increase.

Once the F150 is available as an EV, there is every chance it will be available in the UK, it has only been down to the fuel economy that has prevented many F Series trucks being sold in this country. But they have been sold in the past, in fact I know for a fact one will be in Norfolk this weekend. You may even see it in action on itv4 on Sunday, failing that it will be in Hampshire, a fortnight later, in Scotland a few weeks after that, then Northampton and then Kent. You will likely have to wait until March or April next year after that. Or if you are in Essex just outside the M25 you may catch a glimpse of another one, 6.7L V8 turbodiesel 450bhp and 935lb-ft of Torque. ;
You are welcome to take Bloomberg source as "still clearing backlog". But there are multiple anecdotal stories that have claimed to have ordered the car and received within weeks (some even days), in the US and mainland Europe. That doesn't sound like "still clearing backlog". Being stories, I won't put a claim on they have or have not cleared their backlog, because we don't know without a PR.



But yes, constantly changing speed by regen and speeding up is not efficient. Most efficient way to drive is to coast. A practice illegal in ICE cars UK but not illegal with EV.

More twists and turns, comparing one pickup truck series stat against a young car manufacturer. Deliberately avoid answering the question.
You are right, Tesla supplying a car within weeks or days of an order being placed doesn't sound like "clearing backlog" it sounds like total b******t. There is only 3 ways any car company could supply a car that quick.
1. The car company only has a handful of orders.
2. The car company has already built a car to the same specification and the order has been cancelled
3. The build of the same spec car has already been started and the order cancelled.

Coasting isn't the most efficient way, the engine is still burning fuel. Also it isn't illegal to coast in an ICE car, but if you are coasting and involved in an accident you could then possibly be prosecuted for not having proper control of the vehicle.

The only reason I haven't answered the question of how many pick up trucks are sold in the world compared to saloon cars is because I have been unable to find the answer. I am not avoiding answering your stupid question at all.. If you are that desperate to know the answer try looking it up yourself.
 
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Found the number of pick up trucks sold worldwide in 2018. 6.19 million pick up trucks out of 86.01million cars and light commercial vehicles ( which includes pickups). The F-series was not only the best selling vehicle in America at over 900k but also the world's best selling vehicle at 1.1 million sales. Ford's total pickup truck sales worldwide was 1.35 million. Total number of electric cars sold worldwide last year, 1.2 million.
 
If regenerative braking is the same as dropping a couple of gears to slow down
It isn't. Regen braking in an EV is much more pronounced then engine braking, even on something like my race car that has a 12.5:1 compression ratio, so its engine braking is more noticeable than in most conventional combustion engined cars with lower comp ratios. On an EV releasing the throttle is like applying a medium braking effort on an ICE vehicle, at least in my experience of driving an i3.

If you let an EV roll up to a junction with no throttle like you might an ICE vehicle (ICE vehicle in gear with no throttle in this example), you'll find the EV stops a long way before the junction because regen braking is so effective. Also a long way before an ICE would stop if you changed the ICE into the lowest gear it would take without buzzing the rev limiter.
 
Found the number of pick up trucks sold worldwide in 2018. 6.19 million pick up trucks out of 86.01million cars and light commercial vehicles ( which includes pickups). The F-series was not only the best selling vehicle in America at over 900k but also the world's best selling vehicle at 1.1 million sales. Ford's total pickup truck sales worldwide was 1.35 million. Total number of electric cars sold worldwide last year, 1.2 million.
So, pickup trucks make up 7.2% of total global cars and light commercial vehicle sales in 2018. Does cars have a higher percentage? Which vehicle segment is more important as an entry point for a global vehicle industry disruptor?

Yet, you were keen to twist the author's word about pickup truck industry to your "Tesla isn't a motor industry disruptor" view:
But the author of the article wrote that from what Musk has been saying about the truck and the F150 it is aimed at, Tesla will finally have a vehicle to disrupt the industry. So from the "pen" of an EV advocate, Tesla haven't disrupted anything yet.



There is only 3 ways any car company could supply a car that quick.
1. The car company only has a handful of orders.
2. The car company has already built a car to the same specification and the order has been cancelled
3. The build of the same spec car has already been started and the order cancelled.
Or 4. There are so few configurations, Tesla are able to bulk build vehicles and people are able to buy vehicle like from Amazon warehouse.

Unfortunately rest of your post doesn't dignify a reply. Due to rude insults and desperate "clarification".


Deliveries, not sales. These are the cars they had pre-orders for going back a couple of years, they are not current sales in the same way the other models in the same 'class' are.
A more accurate comparison would be if one of the competitors took orders for the last few years and then delivered them all in the last 6 months!
I've never seen Tesla report sales, only "we have so many orders in transit". I think the reason they report deliveries is because only after delivery, they get paid.
Out of interest, how do dealerships work? At what point does dealers pay manufacturers?

If you want to do "more accurate" comparison like that, why not go all the way and say last 2 years (from whenever Model 3 has started delivering). Or even all car sales from the start of preorder!
 
Which vehicle segment is more important as an entry point for a global vehicle industry disruptor?

Yet, you were keen to twist the author's word about pickup truck industry to your "Tesla isn't a motor industry disruptor" view:





Or 4. There are so few configurations, Tesla are able to bulk build vehicles and people are able to buy vehicle like from Amazon warehouse.

Unfortunately rest of your post doesn't dignify a reply. Due to rude insults and desperate "clarification".
When a disruptor comes along, we may have an answer.
I haven't twisted anything. It was the authors own words. Just because they don't suit your agenda, it doesn't mean I have twisted it to suit what I have been saying.

Option 4. There are 60 configuration options plus software options which can be added afterwards. But you are still ignoring the fact that Tesla's own production figures fall short by over 100k from the pre-order 400k number that you quoted. Other than showroom samples, media cars and cancelled orders, why would Tesla be building cars in bulk when there are customers that have been waiting over a year for their orders to be fulfilled.

What rude insults?
What desperate clarification?
 
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It isn't. Regen braking in an EV is much more pronounced then engine braking, even on something like my race car that has a 12.5:1 compression ratio, so its engine braking is more noticeable than in most conventional combustion engined cars with lower comp ratios. On an EV releasing the throttle is like applying a medium braking effort on an ICE vehicle, at least in my experience of driving an i3.

If you let an EV roll up to a junction with no throttle like you might an ICE vehicle (ICE vehicle in gear with no throttle in this example), you'll find the EV stops a long way before the junction because regen braking is so effective. Also a long way before an ICE would stop if you changed the ICE into the lowest gear it would take without buzzing the rev limiter.
So what you are saying is, he has supplied misinformation again.
The ironic thing is he has then hit the like button on your post.
 
so many car experts on a photography forum . but if you look at current world climate news and the attitude of some of the largest abusers on the planet , what the hell difference is our small island going to make . just enjoy things as they are as I think we have passed the point of no return on Gaia . and are now hurtling towards a mass extinction event .

perhaps its our duty as photographers to record current wildlife/insects/birds/sea-life/views etc for posterity as i'm certain in a 100 years this planet will be unrecognisable
 
So what you are saying is, he has supplied misinformation again.
The ironic thing is he has then hit the like button on your post.
What are you on about? Another attempted spin on the truth, either that or you have zero understanding on this subject.

In my Leaf, it's akin to dropping down 2 gears compared to the Merc C220 I had before. Different cars have different braking feel when dropping gears for engine braking (as he has alluded to with compression ratios). Some doesn't have strong braking feel, some a lot.
The i3 has stronger regen, what he says is entirely correct.

Option 4. There are 60 configuration options plus software options which can be added afterwards. But you are still ignoring the fact that Tesla's own production figures fall short by over 100k from the pre-order 400k number that you quoted. Other than showroom samples, media cars and cancelled orders, why would Tesla be building cars in bulk when there are customers that have been waiting over a year for their orders to be fulfilled.
I count 3 car configurations, 5 paint options, 2 interior options. 30 different permutation of Model 3. Far easier to manage than the dizzying amount of options offered by VAG/BMW/etc.

I think you need to consider other possibilities. They may have finished delivering all pre-orders and are now building for new orders, they build in bulk to reduce retooling downtime. They have inventory of new cars, something other manufacturers get dealership network to handle for them.

But you, on the other hand, just flat out deny they have cleared pre-orders without concrete evidence from within Tesla. Just like your claims in the Tesla fire, all based on most pessimistic speculation.

What rude insults?
you must have your head firmly up your arse.

What desperate clarification?
I didn't say I can drive without touching the brake, I just use the brake pedal sparingly. I allow the car to slow by engine braking, and dab the brake lightly to ensure correct speed or if I do actually have to stop. Observe the road properly, you can keep the car rolling when you approach a junction, if the road is clear, keep going, if the road isn't clear gentle pressure on the brakes will stop the car with very little dust.
Coasting isn't the most efficient way, the engine is still burning fuel. Also it isn't illegal to coast in an ICE car, but if you are coasting and involved in an accident you could then possibly be prosecuted for not having proper control of the vehicle.
On several occasions, I drove my sister in law's 66 plate leaf when she had it. Bloody awful car. About as good as driving a Bradshaw Personnel Carrier only quicker.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0b_UegIX6dMtFZuUDlZfIh
In fact the Bradshaw is more fun to drive.
 
I'm still not sure which vehicles Tesla consider to be in the same class as the Model 3 though, the build quality issues they are having doesn't really make them premium cars in my opinion.

Strange, I've not been in one for about 6/8 months but both I've driven very much had a premium feel. That shouldn't be confused with issues building them though, which is fair comment.
 
Strange, I've not been in one for about 6/8 months but both I've driven very much had a premium feel. That shouldn't be confused with issues building them though, which is fair comment.

I must admit, I'm not really keeping a keen eye on Tesla for anything really. If they have resolved the quality issues, mainly bodywork panels having various gap widths, doors not lining up quite right etc, then fair enough, oh and the waterfall inducing rear boot opening!

I have seen a few model X's knocking around and even when on the motorway the misaligned door panels can be clearly seen. Now if that was on a £10-15 budget SUV then fine, you get what you pay for but for the cost of a Model X it doesn't meet the standard of a premium car in my view. The cost however is certainly in the premium bracket :)

Not seen a Model 3 in the flesh so to speak.

Does anyone know what Tesla judge to be in the same class as the Model 3, serious question.
 
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What are you on about? Another attempted spin on the truth, either that or you have zero understanding on this subject.

In my Leaf, it's akin to dropping down 2 gears compared to the Merc C220 I had before. Different cars have different braking feel when dropping gears for engine braking (as he has alluded to with compression ratios). Some doesn't have strong braking feel, some a lot.
The i3 has stronger regen, what he says is entirely correct.


I count 3 car configurations, 5 paint options, 2 interior options. 30 different permutation of Model 3. Far easier to manage than the dizzying amount of options offered by VAG/BMW/etc.

I think you need to consider other possibilities. They may have finished delivering all pre-orders and are now building for new orders, they build in bulk to reduce retooling downtime. They have inventory of new cars, something other manufacturers get dealership network to handle for them.

But you, on the other hand, just flat out deny they have cleared pre-orders without concrete evidence from within Tesla. Just like your claims in the Tesla fire, all based on most pessimistic speculation.
You said regenerative braking in an EV is like dropping 2-3 gears. He said it isn't that severe. The compression ratio of my engine is 9.5:1 and dropping 2 or 3 gears to slow down is severe. You are now back pedaling as you have been called out again.
If Tesla's own figures are that they had 400k pre orders for the Model 3 and their own figures say they have built less than 300k cars, they can't have delivered all the preorders.
In fact this article from June 21st, this year, just after the first UK customers had finally recieved their Model 3's has quoted Tesla statements, they had only recieved 325k pre orders, not the 400k you stated. Tesla also state that they had delivered 140k Model 3 cars. Where the other approximate 130k cars are that they claim to have built are, I don't know, but at the end of June this year they still had a backlog of 40-50k cars to build and supply.

"They build in bulk to reduce retooling downtime"
What retooling? There is no retooling required. You obviously haven't a clue about car production either.
 
Does anyone know what Tesla judge to be in the same class as the Model 3, serious question.
I'm afraid to invoke wraith of Neil...... but the link I've replied to you, last time you posted this question, contains the models Tesla have used to compare their Model 3.

You said regenerative braking in an EV is like dropping 2-3 gears. He said it isn't that severe. The compression ratio of my engine is 9.5:1 and dropping 2 or 3 gears to slow down is severe. You are now back pedaling as you have been called out again.
Please re-read @onomatopoeia comment and make sure you fully understand what he is saying. Please re-read my comment you've quoted and make sure you fully understand what I'm saying. Sorry to say, you have shown you have absolutely zero ability to read.

If Tesla's own figures are that they had 400k pre orders for the Model 3 and their own figures say they have built less than 300k cars, they can't have delivered all the preorders.
In fact this article from June 21st, this year, just after the first UK customers had finally recieved their Model 3's has quoted Tesla statements, they had only recieved 325k pre orders, not the 400k you stated. Tesla also state that they had delivered 140k Model 3 cars. Where the other approximate 130k cars are that they claim to have built are, I don't know, but at the end of June this year they still had a backlog of 40-50k cars to build and supply.
Where does 400k come from? Is that the most up-to-date figures? Or have you taken a figure from years ago and ran all your assumptions based on outdated information.
Where is this article you are quoting?



In other news, Porsche thinks their upcoming performance EV will outsell their 911 performance car.
https://jalopnik.com/porsche-says-the-electric-taycan-will-outsell-the-911-1836835500
Looks like Porsche don't have their head in the sand, unlike some other manufacturers.
 
I'm afraid to invoke wraith of Neil...... but the link I've replied to you, last time you posted this question, contains the models Tesla have used to compare their Model 3.


Please re-read @onomatopoeia comment and make sure you fully understand what he is saying. Please re-read my comment you've quoted and make sure you fully understand what I'm saying. Sorry to say, you have shown you have absolutely zero ability to read.


Where does 400k come from? Is that the most up-to-date figures? Or have you taken a figure from years ago and ran all your assumptions based on outdated information.
Where is this article you are quoting?



In other news, Porsche thinks their upcoming performance EV will outsell their 911 performance car.
https://jalopnik.com/porsche-says-the-electric-taycan-will-outsell-the-911-1836835500
Looks like Porsche don't have their head in the sand, unlike some other manufacturers.
Why would your link about models competing against the Model 3, invoke any wrath from me.
You are losing your grip on reality.

I read what you said and he said and understood the implications of both perfectly.
You said regenerative braking in an EV is configurable and can be akin to dropping 2 or 3 gears in an ICE vehicle. He said it wasn't even similar to dropping 2 gears, it was more moderate. You "liked" his post which means you are now disagreeing with your own statement.
You are now seriously losing you your grip on reality.

The 400k figure came from you.



You have now completely lost your grip on reality.
 
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In other news, Porsche thinks their upcoming performance EV will outsell their 911 performance car.
https://jalopnik.com/porsche-says-the-electric-taycan-will-outsell-the-911-1836835500
Looks like Porsche don't have their head in the sand, unlike some other manufacturers.
Most Porsche 911 are a weekend toy and at over £90k plus so only sell 35k a year. The Taycan is a sports saloon car, will likely be used everyday of the week and is expected to be cheaper than a base 911, of course they expect to sell more. About the same number as the Panamera in fact, their current sports saloon, but around half the number of Macan or Cayenne Subs they sell.
So what is the point your trying to make?
 
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