Car parts are a scam?

[Terrywoodenpic]

I put my Toyota Camry 2. 2 in to my local garage to sort out an occasional engine warning light problem. The Scan ECU fault codes showed that the engine coolant temperature sensor was faulty and that the Manifold air pressure sensor (MAP) had an intermittent fault.
The temperature sensor was easily sorted with a generic one at £22.
However Toyota the only supplier for the MAP sensor in the UK wanted £360 to supply a replacement. but they are on back order.

Now I know that Camry's were never a popular car in the UK and parts are hard to come by here, but that is ridiculous. I looked on line and found that they were easily available from the USA with Rock Auto.com having a choice of makes for that identical part. with prices ranging from $25 up to about £120 depending on make and length of guarantee. However their most popular one was at $28 + duty paid and postage coming to about £45 total. ( RockAuto run an excellent and easy to use site where you can see the delivered tax paid final price for just about any car and any part)

£55 was the price offered to me for a second hand one from a breakers yard here, which I declined.

I then did another web search and found several on the AliExpress web site (The Alibaba owned Chinese Equivalent of Ebay.)
With delivery it came in at £19.00 Rather a difference to the £360. even if I am clobbered for duty or vat. Now if it only lasts for the guaranteed 12 months it is still a bargain. Ok. I will still have to wait 20 days for it to arrive. but then I have no Idea when the Toyota supplied one would arrive anyway.

The Temperature sensor seems to have been the main culprit, as since they replaced it the engine is both smoother and the light has not reappeared.

Repairs at my local garage is far less costly than at Toyota main centre. a clutch replacement a few years ago was less than half that quoted by Toyota ( the clutch in the Camry is the same unit as in the RAV4.) so is quite cheap and is available made by all the main manufacturers as a kit for around £70. At least it is not one of the newer clutches that are combined with the flywheel, and cost an arm and leg in comparison. fitting costs depend where you go, We have a local specialist clutch fitting business that beats everyone.

It seems spending a couple of hours on the web is well worth the effort.

 

[Byker28i]

we did a group buy with a chinese manufacturer of throttle pots, as used on TVR,s and fords. Not currently available and over £80 each when they are.
Chinese version were £18 each delivered, mind you we bought a stock of 100

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

we did a group buy with a chinese manufacturer of throttle pots, as used on TVR,s and fords. Not currently available and over £80 each when they are.
Chinese version were £18 each delivered, mind you we bought a stock of 100

It seem that many Hi-Tec parts originate in China anyway, what ever the Makers name on the product. They are gaining a lot of credibility.

 

[munch]

Even a bog standard car could easily cost over £250,000 if brought as parts.

 

[Krisstiffer]

That’s one of the reasons I’ll not buy another Volvo - felt like I was being ripped a new one any time it needed a part replaced. Even my BMW cars and bikes I’ve had since are low cost - in comparison!!

 

[gman]

Front low control arm rear bush needed replacing on my car. Honda said the arm comes as one unit (with the bushes, ball joint etc all attached) and the other side was also looking on the verge. £600 a piece so they wanted £1200 just for the parts

Did some digging of my own and you can get just the bush (Febi one on eBay) for £20. Or I discovered that you can get the rear section of the arm (which just contains the bush) can be had from Honda for £80 and saves you having to get the old bush in and out. Sneaky buggers at Honda kept quiet about that even though it's clearly shown as a separately available part on the diagram. So it cost me £160 instead of £1200 whilst still keeping with genuine parts and my mate did the job for a packet of fags.

 

[nilagin]

I put my Toyota Camry 2. 2 in to my local garage to sort out an occasional engine warning light problem. The Scan ECU fault codes showed that the engine coolant temperature sensor was faulty and that the Manifold air pressure sensor (MAP) had an intermittent fault.

The Temperature sensor seems to have been the main culprit, as since they replaced it the engine is both smoother and the light has not reappeared.

Repairs at my local garage is far less costly than at Toyota main centre.

The code reader will be a lot more in depth than the generic one your local garage uses. It would give a better diagnosis of a problem than a generic one. There is a good chance there is nothing wrong with the MAP sensor and was just a red herring thrown up by the code reader.

 

[JonathanRyan]

The code reader will be a lot more in depth than the generic one your local garage uses. It would give a better diagnosis of a problem than a generic one.

Isn't that the real "rip off"? (or you could call it paying for their original R&D on the car). Presumably the code reader just reads a code off the computer, looks it up in a table and says what's wrong. For the manufacturer's code reader to be "more detailed" than a generic one it just has a better lookup table.

If the manu released the proper code table we could all go to cheap garages and get the right parts but by only having a partial table they perpetuate FUD to keep their margins. Or am I being unduly cynical?

 

[nilagin]

Isn't that the real "rip off"? (or you could call it paying for their original R&D on the car). Presumably the code reader just reads a code off the computer, looks it up in a table and says what's wrong. For the manufacturer's code reader to be "more detailed" than a generic one it just has a better lookup table.

If the manu released the proper code table we could all go to cheap garages and get the right parts but by only having a partial table they perpetuate FUD to keep their margins. Or am I being unduly cynical?

The manufacturers code reader has to be regularly updated. That costs money. It is hardly the fault of manufacturers who have invested time and money into a system giving more detailed information rather than a garage that invests in a simple code reader that just gives a clue of where a problem might be.

 

[JonathanRyan]

The manufacturers code reader has to be regularly updated.

Why? The parts on a 15 plate whatever don't change. Code readers for new models will need an update but as long as the codes were valid when the car was made, surely they are still valid.

I get that they are protecting their R&D investment and of course they have a right to do this but I don't buy the idea that engine codes on a car made 5 years ago are going to change.

 

[mj4456]

Just priced rear shock absorbers for my S2000,each, Honda £395.45, factors do Konis at circa £65, even I was shocked, until last month last month I was parts adviser in a Kia dealer so I’m aware of the differences.

 

[nilagin]

Why? The parts on a 15 plate whatever don't change. Code readers for new models will need an update but as long as the codes were valid when the car was made, surely they are still valid.

I get that they are protecting their R&D investment and of course they have a right to do this but I don't buy the idea that engine codes on a car made 5 years ago are going to change.

The manufacturers unit is a lot more complex than a code reader. It has to be able to disable, enable and reset features as well as apply software updates to the car. Plus when new cars come out their data has to be added.

 

[simon ess]

I understand the annoyance and frustration but I don't understand why it's a scam. The manufacturer offers a part at a price. A similar part is available elsewhere at a lower price. You weigh up risks and benefits and make your choice.

Good old free market capitalism at work.

 

[gman]

Just priced rear shock absorbers for my S2000,each, Honda £395.45, factors do Konis at circa £65, even I was shocked, until last month last month I was parts adviser in a Kia dealer so I’m aware of the differences.

I'm also currently looking for rear Honda shocks, although mine are £150 each for Honda genuine OEM "showa" ones. There's a few other brands about but there appears to be over five different part numbers for the same shocks with is throwing a spanner in the works. I eventually came across https://www.sparepartstore24.co.uk who do Sachs ones (also used as OEM by Honda) for £80 each, so just double checking against my VIN and hopefully that'll be me good to go. Worth checking them out if you haven't already done so.

 

[mj4456]

Isn't that the real "rip off"? (or you could call it paying for their original R&D on the car). Presumably the code reader just reads a code off the computer, looks it up in a table and says what's wrong. For the manufacturer's code reader to be "more detailed" than a generic one it just has a better lookup table.

If the manu released the proper code table we could all go to cheap garages and get the right parts but by only having a partial table they perpetuate FUD to keep their margins. Or am I being unduly cynical?

Smaller indie garages often use simpler code readers to keep costs down, it may be a “once in a month” tool, mates have code readers with a vast database but many times more, you pays your money and takes your choice, on the other hand dealers/manufacturers spend a lot of money producing the cars and of course want to recoup their outlay, and make a profit too, how long would businesses last if their data was free to all to use?

 

[Nod]

Soon after Mrs Nod bought her XK8, it developed a fuelling problem so the seller plugged it in - "Throttle body fault" according to his generic fault reader. They fitted a fresh throttle body but it still wasn't quite right (same fault reported on a tested throttle body) so we took it to a local Jag specialist who plugged it in to his reader which has the latest Jag software and codes and that reported that the thing needed to be matched to the car - a 2 minute job with the correct reader and software.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Smaller indie garages often use simpler code readers to keep costs down, it may be a “once in a month” tool, mates have code readers with a vast database but many times more, you pays your money and takes your choice, on the other hand dealers/manufacturers spend a lot of money producing the cars and of course want to recoup their outlay, and make a profit too, how long would businesses last if their data was free to all to use?

The place I use will get in an auto electrician for manufacturer specific codes or to program a new part to the ECU when required. They know someone who has the relevant software for various manufacturers. Obviously this comes with an additional cost to the customer, but it has to be weighed against main dealer labour rates.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

There is a lot of cashing in going on.

Take Hyundai parts for example. You can import them from Korea for literally a fraction of main dealer costs, which are probably more in line with Ferrari rather than budget brands.

VW charge pretty much double through dealerships vs TPS for the very same thing. OE equivalents are cheaper still.

Well the fun starts here pretty much as you go into it. There are a lot of fakes going round. It is not difficult to for example order a container of $1 wheel bearings from china and make any box you fancy and sell at say £50 here. I really don't believe there are genuine MOOG parts imported to UK from US (you can clearly see that shipping + tax would make such deal too expensive) and my experience with that label was worse than terrible. The said wheel bearing failed after just 4 weeks. Tomorrow is time for making a claim with the store.

 

[Byker28i]

The manufacturers unit is a lot more complex than a code reader. It has to be able to disable, enable and reset features as well as apply software updates to the car. Plus when new cars come out their data has to be added.

Yup I have a £20 code reader, good for resets and reading codes but that's it. The manufacturer ones offer much more detailed diagmostics and features

 

[nilagin]

Yup I have a £20 code reader, good for resets and reading codes but that's it. The manufacturer ones offer much more detailed diagmostics and features

The manufacturers ones tend to cost several thousands of pounds too.

 

[Nod]

The software isn't cheap either!

 

[ian-83]

VW charge pretty much double through dealerships vs TPS for the very same thing. OE equivalents are cheaper still.

A VW dealer will charge the retail price set by VW UK, TPS will quote a trade price. This prices varies % discount wise based on the cost of the part. Some parts have very minimal discount others such as service items seem to have a better discount. TPS should only sell to trade not to a retail customer.

I work for a VW dealer and price of some parts baffles me. Even with staff discount sometimes the retail price works out cheaper!!

 

[LeeRatters]

A good mate of mine has his own business & he has thousands invested in diagnostic software & he is also approved by VW, SEAT, & a few others too.

I mean it's good that the system can find the fault for you. But, when you can't change the battery or rear brake pads without plugging the car in I think it's a little too far!!

 

[mj4456]

There is a lot of cashing in going on.

Take Hyundai parts for example. You can import them from Korea for literally a fraction of main dealer costs, which are probably more in line with Ferrari rather than budget brands.

Until recently I worked in a Kia parts department, we used to sell the local Hyundai dealer parts as we were often much cheaper, came from the same warehouse on the same delivery truck, often in a box marked Hyundai/Kia or the part number differed by an H or a K, it's the importer who decides what the prices will be who is often a separate company from the manufacturer.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

The software isn't cheap either!

For VW / Audi at least you have an option of reasonably priced VCDS diagnostic which pays for itself many times over in a couple of years time just with your own car. It's not as easy with many of the rest brands unfortunately.

TPS should only sell to trade not to a retail customer.

That is bare minimum a completely unethical - if not plain illegal - way of conducting business. No wonder I stay well away from VW dealerships. VAG makes good cars, but VW UK is doing everything to make you consider all other alternatives.

 

[TCR4x4]

I have dealer level diagnostics for landrover discovery 2 td5 and v8 and discovery 3 TDV6 plus Saab/Vauxhall’s upto 2011.
The LR ones cost about £400 each, but they have saved me far more than that in use.
I can also help others with diagnostics, code keys, reflash ecu’s etc
Definitely worth having.

 

[tomh1982]

For VW / Audi at least you have an option of reasonably priced VCDS diagnostic which pays for itself many times over in a couple of years time just with your own car. It's not as easy with many of the rest brands unfortunately.



That is bare minimum a completely unethical - if not plain illegal - way of conducting business. No wonder I stay well away from VW dealerships. VAG makes good cars, but VW UK is doing everything to make you consider all other alternatives.

I agree tbh, I have not been impressed by vw customer service over the years.
I don’t like going in to a service dept & trying to describe what I’d like done to my car to someone who knows less about the car than I do.
Also if I pay for a fault to be diagnosed I want to return to be told what the problem is rather than sorry but we’ll have to charge you X amount more to look into it further.

VW are by no means the only brand like this. Had the same issues with BMW & others. These days anything I can do myself I do & luckily there’s a good vw specialist where I live!

 

[wyx087]

I don’t like going in to a service dept & trying to describe what I’d like done to my car to someone who knows less about the car than I do.

This right here, is the biggest problem with main dealers.

The mindless drones is an added complication between you and the guy actually working on your car. You tell them a problem, they scribble it down for the mechanics. Then the mechanic says they found a minor problem nearby, the drones will then be tasked with upsell you £££ worth of work on the consumable BEFORE they look at your warranty claim.
Or (as said) they will charge you a fee to look at a very simple problem, then turn around and have the cheek to ask for more "diagnostic fee".

It's the same with every brand. Skoda, Nissan, Mercedes, Volvo, I've had (dis)pleasure of dealing with them all. Unfortunately they hold the key to your warranty claim. As soon as the car is out of warranty, it goes off to independents where I can talk to real mechanics.

 

[nilagin]

This right here, is the biggest problem with main dealers. ........... As soon as the car is out of warranty, it goes off to independents where I can talk to real mechanics.

If you are that unhappy with main dealers and don't trust them, why are you waiting for the warranty to expire? So long as a garage is VAT registered, follows the service schedule and uses the manufacturer parts, you can have your car serviced where ever you like. The only time you have to use the main dealer then is for warranty claims.

 

[wyx087]

Because free servicing from finance deal. Also for warranty claims, as you said.

Everything else gets done at independent. Main dealers won't get a penny from me.
Except that time when waterpump failed on a less than 4 years old car. The car was flatbed to main dealer hoping for a good will gesture. Instead of paying for another flatbed, I just got timing belt and waterpump done at the same time.

 

[nilagin]

Because free servicing from finance deal. Also for warranty claims, as you said.

Everything else gets done at independent. Main dealers won't get a penny from me.
Except that time when waterpump failed on a less than 4 years old car. The car was flatbed to main dealer hoping for a good will gesture. Instead of paying for another flatbed, I just got timing belt and waterpump done at the same time.

The main dealer I use, price matches any VAT registered garage within a 10 mile radius plus I get 12 months full breakdown cover for free and the dealer is right next door to my workplace. I always make a point of wearing one of my work shirts when going to the service desk and they know they are going to have a hard job trying it on.
If you are unhappy relaying your problems or queries to the person on the service desk, ask to speak to a workshop manager or one of the mechanics most likely to be carrying out the work.

 

[wyx087]

The main dealer I use, price matches any VAT registered garage within a 10 mile radius plus I get 12 months full breakdown cover for free and the dealer is right next door to my workplace. I always make a point of wearing one of my work shirts when going to the service desk and they know they are going to have a hard job trying it on.
If you are unhappy relaying your problems or queries to the person on the service desk, ask to speak to a workshop manager or one of the mechanics most likely to be carrying out the work.

Why does it need to work this way though? Why must you wear your Ford work shirt to be spared of the nonsense?

Why have this additional man in the middle?

In fact, why have dealerships at all?
For buying: Why not just a few manufacturer delivery centre around the country? Shopping centre showrooms and test-drive locations. Then order online, everyone get the same price written on the sticker. Non of the "let me ask my manager" sales rubbish.
For servicing: Why not make parts available online, service manuals easily accessible for a daily fee, diagnostic messages should be all open source (what OBD tried to achieve). People could get their cars completely fixed at any garage or by skilled mate.

 

[nilagin]

Why does it need to work this way though? Why must you wear your Ford work shirt to be spared of the nonsense?

Why have this additional man in the middle?

In fact, why have dealerships at all?
For buying: Why not just a few manufacturer delivery centre around the country? Shopping centre showrooms and test-drive locations. Then order online, everyone get the same price written on the sticker. Non of the "let me ask my manager" sales rubbish.
For servicing: Why not make parts available online, service manuals easily accessible for a daily fee, diagnostic messages should be all open source (what OBD tried to achieve). People could get their cars completely fixed at any garage or by skilled mate.

With buying online you will be pretty much paying list price, there won't be any inclination to give discounts. How will you trade in a car if you wish too. For a lot of mass produced cars, there is very little or no profìt in the cars. It is the sale of spares etc. that really brings in the money.
Anyone can buy a proper obd code reader, it's just a case of whether they want to pay out around £6k for the initial unit or for any updates thereafter. I don't know about other manufacturers but Ford have ETIS. Just register and enter your vehicle registration or VIN and for a various fees depending on length of time (minimum 1 day) you can have access to repairs and wiring diagrams for the whole vehicle.

 

[broc]

I don't trust the dealers or their diagnostics; years ago I had a Discovery 2 with a leak in the air suspension. I suspected one of the suspension airbags. However, according to the 'technician' the diagnostics said the pump was faulty as it was running too long so it was replaced (under warranty). Surprise surprise, 30 minutes after the vehicle was returned to me the suspension had sagged again. This time I suggested the technician stick the car on a hoist & use his ears not his computer....... he heard air escaping..... from an airbag.

 

[gman]

Jaguar has TOPIx which is probably quite similar to ETIS. Prices are eye watering.

Brian, if you haven't already got one and I'm sure you already know about it but if not then there's a good device called iCarsoft LRII which is supposed to be very good for Land Rover diagnosis.

 

[broc]

Graham,
Sadly the Disco went years ago, just before it's warranty ran out. It was a typical Land Rover, marking it's territory like a dog. It leaked fluids wherever it went: air, coolant, A/C refrigerant, engine oil, gearbox oil to name but a few. I had almost £6k warranty work done on it in 30 months, it was the worst car I ever owned from a reliability viewpoint, but i loved it. I vowed never another Land Rover after that.

 

[gman]

Graham,
Sadly the Disco went years ago, just before it's warranty ran out. It was a typical Land Rover, marking it's territory like a dog. It leaked fluids wherever it went: air, coolant, A/C refrigerant, engine oil, gearbox oil to name but a few. I had almost £6k warranty work done on it in 30 months, it was the worst car I ever owned from a reliability viewpoint, but i loved it. I vowed never another Land Rover after that.

I was toying with buying one myself, either the Disco4 or Range Rover but reliability was a huge stumbling block for me and if being honest with myself I really don't need off-road ability and as for space well a decent estate is almost as good, perhaps slightly less rear legroom but for better performance, economy and running costs I can accept that shortfall.

But, there's still something about the Discos that I really like, especially the looks if you get the right colours and tinted rear windows. Same for the RR. Not a fan of their latest models across the range though.

What you driving now?

 

[bass_junkie83]

If you are that unhappy with main dealers and don't trust them, why are you waiting for the warranty to expire? So long as a garage is VAT registered, follows the service schedule and uses the manufacturer parts, you can have your car serviced where ever you like. The only time you have to use the main dealer then is for warranty claims.

Having gone through this recently, it's not that simple. I ended up back on the phone to Vauxhall telling them they can stick their extended warranty up their jacksie as I will be glad to be rid of the car if it meant never having to deal with them or any of their dealers again.

 

[broc]

@gman ,
We have a petrol engined Mini Cooper S convertible and a BMW X3 diesel. Against my better judgement we did briefly consider a Discovery Sport (petrol) before buying the X3. I discounted the LR Ingenium Diesel engine as it has had quite a few issues.

The mini is a fun car & shopping trolley, the X3 is for long distance & towing.

 

[gman]

The X3 3.0D was also on my list but not many about up here. How do you find yours?