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So are Insensitive and Pillock.
and please use their services
Caroline Flack has died...
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So are Insensitive and Pillock.
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No..what I heard Nolan saying that she was on camera (police body-camera) half-dressed too and a suggestion of self-harm...and yes, he did mention a lot of blood around.
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Matt..dare I intervene re Viv and Mick .You said that "what was once offensive' etc..but in circumstances other than this yes, people do use that phrase usually when someone is exhibiting erratic or abnormal behaviour.. obvious examples would be someone standing in a street shouting at people or having a conversation with themselves and to use it in circumstances of suicide diminishes the gravity of the situation, possibly even trivialises it. It's why a coroner, having conducted an inquest into a suicide, concludes with the words..'balance of the mind was disturbed' There'd be an outcry if the coroner said someone took their life because they'd 'lost their marbles'. There'd be calls for resignation.
For me it's not about whether it's an offensive phrase but rather an inappropriate one and I do think it was. It was also tactless.
You introduced the term 'offensive' and according to you, saying that someone has lost their marbles is, as with other such phrases used in the past , no longer deemed as such but only on the grounds that you couldn't find whether it was or was not. Google doesn't address that particular question it just explains what to 'lose his/her marbles means. I checked that. Infact you acknowledge that Viv could have found the use of the phrase insensitive on your part and you apologised stating that it wasn't your intention.I don't see a great deal of difference between insensitive and inappropriate. I don't read into the responses by Viv nor Mick that they found it offensive nor that they were offended. Maybe they'll clarify that having seen this post. By the way, because a phrase has been used for a very long time..you mention 60 years in this case, doesn't mean it's not offensive even if it hadn't been used as a deliberately offensive term or phrase. You only have to think of the terms or phrases used for people with disabilities..physical or mental. Down Syndrome people are an example. The term was introduced by John Langdon Down in the 1860s who identified the condition and noting the similarity of physical appearance with babies/hildren from Mongolia described them as Mongols. It wasn't until 1965 when the Mongolian government complained to the World Health Organisation that it was changed to Down's Syndrome but was still in common use in the UK in the 1980's
Just as a footnote on introducing a term like offensive when it's unclear that offence was caused .I was darned annoyed with a response I got from the BBC a couple of years ago. I was listening to one of my favourite programmes..The News Quiz. The presenter,Miles Jupp at that time, finished off one of the questions by reading out what the support team had given him to say. As I recall the subject was the Dutch police using hawks or eagles to take down drones used in criminal activity and a couple of comments were made about Dutch brothels,smoking cannabis and lastly.."Or showing Nazis round your house and taking them on a tour of the attic" An unambiguous reference to Anne Frank and her family hiding from the Nazis in Amstrdam although it was a secret annexe not an attic. The response I received read.."We're sorry if it offended your sensibilities" In my complaint I'd written that it was wholly inappropriate subject to joke about it and briefly set out what happened to Anne Frank and her family at the hands of the Nazis after being disovered..I didn't say I'd been offended. I expect many Jewish listeners would have been. I should have known better because before that I'd complained about an interview with a 90 year old Jewish lady who had been interned at Auschwitz and her story was enough to bring tears to the eyes and with 2 minutes left to go what do they do..?..break off the interview to go to their cricket correspondent in Australia as another wicket had fallen. The lady got an apology from the person conducting the interview when they resumed and I have to say that I could hear the contrition in her voice. She obviously thought it was an inappropriate thing to do, too.
We don't need to, as you tentatively suggest, put up our intended posts for a vote on whether the subject matter is deemed offensive or not..it just takes a bit of sensitivity and thought and just think about what you've suggested. By going to a vote you would have posted it
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John hi, long and detailed post above.
I believe I said I had looked to see if the phrase I had used was now deemed to be offensive and I couldn't find any confirmation that it was now offensive, I did say what was once not offensive could in time become so, there are a few words I think we all know that have become offensive, rightly so.
The problem is when is something no longer useable in "polite" conversation, when the majority deem it so or the minority?
As above I did not wish to cause offense or trvialise suicide, I believe I made that perfectly clear in my first post.
For anyone in any doubt I wish to apologise if I have offended them or been tactless or insensitive, that wasnt my intention.
As you and 3 others have pointed out to me the phrase was clumsy at the very least and I will confine it to the same bin as other less appropriate phrases/words used in our languge that are now no longer in use, your example of Mongol being a good example.
May we draw a line under this as I have repeatedly apologised? I am happy to remove my post but I am aware that others would need to do so to remove all references to the phrase.
I believe I said I had looked to see if the phrase I had used was now deemed to be offensive and I couldn't find any confirmation that it was now offensive, I did say what was once not offensive could in time become so, there are a few words I think we all know that have become offensive, rightly so.
The problem is when is something no longer useable in "polite" conversation, when the majority deem it so or the minority?
As above I did not wish to cause offense or trvialise suicide, I believe I made that perfectly clear in my first post.
For anyone in any doubt I wish to apologise if I have offended them or been tactless or insensitive, that wasnt my intention.
As you and 3 others have pointed out to me the phrase was clumsy at the very least and I will confine it to the same bin as other less appropriate phrases/words used in our languge that are now no longer in use, your example of Mongol being a good example.
May we draw a line under this as I have repeatedly apologised? I am happy to remove my post but I am aware that others would need to do so to remove all references to the phrase.
simon ess
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Which of those comments offended your sensibilities?
DK602
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WTF! This thread is a classic case of people looking to be offended by absolutely anything! How the hell do you actually get through life?
If you want to properly be offended skip back a generation and watch your mate get his head blown off Infront of you whilst invading the beaches of Normandy!
Stop whining and winging about a sentence - if I say 'they have lost their marbles' and you get offended reading it then it is you with the problem not I!
If you want to properly be offended skip back a generation and watch your mate get his head blown off Infront of you whilst invading the beaches of Normandy!
Stop whining and winging about a sentence - if I say 'they have lost their marbles' and you get offended reading it then it is you with the problem not I!
OP
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Is it about being offended though?
Not for me. I'm not offended.
Does that mean folks can say what they like?
Well they can, but doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't be criticised for being insensitive.
That is totally different from offensive.
I think the most offensive think they can get away with it by accusing everyone that objects of being whiners, whingers and snowflakes.
DK602
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I bet there is no one on here that knows the person involved personally so why consider someone using a well known expression as being 'insensative'?
OP
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Well good for you........what is wrong with just saying suffering from mental health issues?
Oh wait, it doesn't provoke the same reaction.....
You've made it clear how you feel, and that's up to you, so no need to keep banging on about it.
Perhaps it is you who should be seeking help?
DK602
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Banging on about it! You replied to my response questioning it and I have replied - hardly banging on about it! Some call making a reply polite.
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[emoji897]
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Only ever see you raise your head from the swamp to stir the s*** and share your bigoted views.
Have you ever posted a photography based reply?
DK602
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Do you really, honestly find reading a post from a forum member containing the phrase 'lost their marbles' insensitive or offensive when you didn't personally know the person?
I don't and not sure why that makes someone a bigot?
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These comments refer to the vast majority of your posts.
I ask again, do you ever post anything photography related?
DK602
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So having mainstream conservative views makes someone a bigot - I think that says a lot about you.
A bigot is someone who is intolerant of others views - since the conservatives won a landslide victory & you decide to make it a personal attack on my views there would appear to be only the one bigot in this conversation?
Answer = yes.
HTH
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Its a derogatory, albeit colloquial, way of saying someone has lost their mind.
I don't find it offensive, just childish, but someone with mental health issues might, or at the very least see it as a way of belittling their issues.
OP
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You're the one that comes across as being the most intolerant of others views.
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Have you any research to back up that claim, or is it just your opinion?
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Context is everything Matt, and in this case we're talking about people who have committed suicide. It's commonly defined as someone who has gone insane or lost their mind, although it hasn't always. I'm not sure either of those descriptions can necessarily be used for people who have killed themselves.
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You stated someone with mental issues might be offended or felt their condition was belittled by the phrase I used, but unless research is done to establish their feelings your statement is merely your opinion (which may or may not be accurate) and I find it frustrating that posts are being made suggesting someone would be offended by my use of a phrase which has been used at least since I was a child without any intent to offend.
I have stated quite clearly I wont use the phrase again as I do not wish to cause offense or belittle anyone's feelings, but still people are posting how insensitive, childish or ill thought out my post was.
What exactly should I do to bring this all to a close? It's been done to death, I made a mistake, I apologized (time and again) but still it's being re-posted.
I have stated quite clearly I wont use the phrase again as I do not wish to cause offense or belittle anyone's feelings, but still people are posting how insensitive, childish or ill thought out my post was.
What exactly should I do to bring this all to a close? It's been done to death, I made a mistake, I apologized (time and again) but still it's being re-posted.
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We seem to have crossed wires here. I wasn't actually referring to your use of the phrase, and I never for a moment thought you had meant to cause offence.
Fuji Dave
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If this gets me a ban then so be it as I will know who is the grass, but imo there really are some serious plebs about on the web who like to start trouble but NEVER share a photograph so why not trot on back to the pit they came from
On a great note, another fool on ignore
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woof woof
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It's a tragedy for close family members and loved ones but I did agree with the intended prosecution even if the alleged victim didn't, if the evidence is there and assuming it's a genuine case and not a show trial (I never thought that) as some have suggested and assuming that the system can provide help rather than a more traditional custodial sentence punishment if help is more appropriate.
There's a whole load of questions about the media, social media and how things get into the media and those are valid questions that should be addressed.
One thing that occurs to me is how this case would be reported and viewed by social media and wider society if the roles the sexes had in this were reversed and a popular male celebrity was accused of assaulting a female partner. Maybe it'd be just the same. Whatever the case I do think it's interesting to look at how who or what you are could lead to more serious implications but any protections for the rich and or famous should be extended to all.
There's a whole load of questions about the media, social media and how things get into the media and those are valid questions that should be addressed.
One thing that occurs to me is how this case would be reported and viewed by social media and wider society if the roles the sexes had in this were reversed and a popular male celebrity was accused of assaulting a female partner. Maybe it'd be just the same. Whatever the case I do think it's interesting to look at how who or what you are could lead to more serious implications but any protections for the rich and or famous should be extended to all.
Fuji Dave
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The boyfriend said he was Not hit with a lamp ( police say he was ) he says blood on the bed was hers and the police say it`s his. So I say even though she has sadly died, do a DNA on the blood from the bed and if it is hers then police need to look at them selfs and answer why they have screwed up yet again because some one IS lying and if it`s the police then who ever should be sacked as they can`t be trusted but if it`s the boy friend lying then get him in court.
woof woof
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I don't know if we can necessarily believe what we read. I read that he phoned the police and that he'd suffered an injury and cut to his head.
People can and do lie and we're in an age when some don't believe a word the police or other authority figures say and don't trust the wider legal process.
I have only limited experiences of domestic abuse but certainly they do include the "victim" changing their mind and not wanting the police to take action. I have also been involved in a case when the system decided to pursue a case regardless of the lack of a willing and cooperating complainant, I was called as a witness.
What goes on behind closed doors between consenting adults should to an extent be their business and no one elses but not when domestic abuse is involved and if the police are called or otherwise become aware, maybe if the neighbours call them, then the system should IMO run its course. Assuming they're (the system) honest and competent of course.
DK602
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This isn't how it works.
Fuji Dave
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I worked in a rehab for folk who had mental health issues, and sadly many folk have a stigma about mental health. To me that is their problem and if they can`t handle it then tough get a life. For me it did not offend at all how it was said as at the end of the day some folk say it a different way to what others would, the only thing that some times upsets me is when you get the trolls saying this that and everything, when really it might make them feel big and strong but really that sort of person is just sad and needs to trot on as they don`t know what on earth they are talking about.
Mental health is very personal to me and when you get the creeps saying stupid things then yes it could upset me as they don`t know diddly - squat about what they are saying. As to me that sort of person is like the big school bully in the play ground trying to look their best, but I can and do look at this person and might think Yes you really are a sad person who likes to try and score points when really deep inside your own mind it is screaming OH I`m so lonely and sad so I will play up. I don`t work any more in Turning Point now but for me as I have Mental Health issues for the rest of my life, it was a great pleasure to help folk in the rehab because I put in what I got.
Mental health is very personal to me and when you get the creeps saying stupid things then yes it could upset me as they don`t know diddly - squat about what they are saying. As to me that sort of person is like the big school bully in the play ground trying to look their best, but I can and do look at this person and might think Yes you really are a sad person who likes to try and score points when really deep inside your own mind it is screaming OH I`m so lonely and sad so I will play up. I don`t work any more in Turning Point now but for me as I have Mental Health issues for the rest of my life, it was a great pleasure to help folk in the rehab because I put in what I got.
woof woof
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There are things you can say/write that are almost guaranteed to get a negative response and maybe even get a knee jerk mob mentality response. This may be because more people can hear or see what you're putting out there more and more easily so it's just a matter of visibility and the numbers before someone objects. It may be because people are over sensitive, because they interpret bad intent where there isn't any, the snowflake effect, or whatever, and I'm quite sure some are just looking for a chance to explode on someone else. Whatever the cause it does IMO stifle debate and it is IMO a shame.
DK602
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How very, very strange!
Lets look at your post #68. (Not the one quoted above)
You clearly know nothing about the Criminal Justice System, the role of the Police or the CPS within that system.
You also clearly do not know how crimes are investigated but start demanding that 'they' should be doing this that or the other.
You do not know any of the persons involved in the incident or what they have actually said
You only know what has been reported.
You find it offensive that someone should use a 'common' phrase
............yet you don't find it wrong to get involved in a discussion about a celebrity taking their own life or being the suspect of a criminal offence on a public internet forum, relying only on pure speculation for your postings.
I think the people involved would certainly find the discussion of this tragic event by people who didn't know them, have no knowledge of the facts and have no understanding of how matters are investigated far more offensive; in the end of the day is this not worse than the gutter press who we are blaming?
Speculation and conjecture by laypeople doesn't offer any dignity.
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Fuji Dave
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I know enough about the police thank you after being in prison for a long time, and I did not do a thing so trot on on that boy. Where did I say I found it offensive ? So trot on again. Look up DNA and tell me about it. I know more about the law than you could ever dream of boy
OP
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More offensive than someone suggesting they'd lost their marbles enough to take their own life?(Sorry Matt, I know you didn't mean to cause offence)
And you suggesting it's ok to use that phrase?
Yeah, right .....
Are you a retired police officer by any chance?
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Fuji Dave
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As I can`t see any of the members posts now as you can stay on ignore for good. I have noticed with you that you come in to threads and really get up members backs which is a sad thing but now I don`t care as your on ignore so please carry on talking totally rubbish as I wont be replying your stupid sad questions that you know nothing about at all.
RedRobin
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Did Caroline Flack have a history of mental illness (assuming her alleged mental illness is true, and I don't know either way)?
What sort of mental illness? What on earth is 'normal' anyway? Perhaps 'mental illness' needs to be redefined.
Did she take her own life because she couldn't cope with no longer being in that particular spotlight?
Anyone who the public and media view as a 'celebrity' of some sort surely realises that they are in the spotlight.
Did she not realise that she could turn her life around and do something else in life?
It would appear that she gave no thought to how her family and close friends might be devastated by her suicide.
What sort of mental illness? What on earth is 'normal' anyway? Perhaps 'mental illness' needs to be redefined.
Did she take her own life because she couldn't cope with no longer being in that particular spotlight?
Anyone who the public and media view as a 'celebrity' of some sort surely realises that they are in the spotlight.
Did she not realise that she could turn her life around and do something else in life?
It would appear that she gave no thought to how her family and close friends might be devastated by her suicide.
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OP
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I'd imagine that people on the verge of suicide are not thinking rationally.
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From what I have read, her suicide wasn't anything to do with being a celebrity or being in the spotlight.
Because of the looming court case she was barred from seeing or contacting her boyfriend.
The timing of finding out that the court case would go ahead coinciding with Valentine Day and not being able to see her boyfriend, she was feeling very low. She had sort help on the Friday, but it was decided she was ok.
I can only assume she sunk even further into her depression and could see no future for herself.