Clients client didn't like the image, client can't pay me

As someone who knows very little about anything, and have just read this entire saga from scratch, can I just say that the time spent by your client on this must have cost something more than £500. They offered £250? - in my experience you offer low and go for something in-between. Why not consider emailing them to say you are prepared to settle amicably out of court for £350? (or say £400 and accept £350) if only to see the back of this sorry mess.

For what it's worth Pete I support your case and think that dealing with anyone in the manner this company apparently has done appears immoral and inherently dishonest.

Don't reproach yourself - I kick myself daily for not saying something I thought of after the event.

All the best - Gareth
 
Their email reads like an attempt to bully Pete into submission, probably a last ditched attempt. If they really felt they'd win then there'd be no reason to send the email as there's nothing to gain from it.

I took an employer to tribunal a few years back, they mis-handled a round of redundancies and tried every trick in the book to get us to go away - ignored us, bullied, even tried sob stories. 10 days before the hearing was due they finally got a solicitor involved who quickly told them they'd lose and lose big and to make sensible offer via ACAS. We settled on 6 months wages.

The case you have is straightforward.

[client] hired me to take photos of [location] on [date] for £500. No formal brief was supplied as to the style required other than a verbal request for "wide angle shots".

I undertook the work as agreed and submitted the images on [date]. [Client] acknowledged receipt and acceptence of the images and confirmed payment would be made.

Despite several reminders payment has not been received therefore I am claiming the contracted amount of £500.

It's a basic contract and you completed your side:

Did Pete attend and take the photos?
Yes
Did you give Pete specific details of the shots required?
No
Did you give any details about what was required?
Yes, wide angle shots
Did Pete provide wide angle shots?
Yes
Did you pay Pete?
No

Bzzzt!

If I hired someone to pave my lawn and asked for square slabs I couldn't then complain that I wanted small red slabs rather than the large grey ones supplied. It would be my own fault and I could either live with it or either pay the same guy to redo the work or someone else to redo it. But the first guy did the job, he paved my lawn with square slabs as requested.

Because there were no specific details about the brief the quality issue should be limited to the technical standard of the shots - were they in focus, properly exposed, suitable resolution, etc.

On the other hand their counter-claim for costs of the re-shoot however goes like this.

We hired Pete to take photos of [location] on [date].

Pete completed the shoot and submitted the photos. Upon consultation with our client we felt the images supplied were not suitable for the purpose.

We arranged for a re-shoot which cost us [cost] and therefore seek this amount as damages.

Did Pete attend and take the photos?
Yes
Were the photos acceptable?
No
Why Not?
They didn't match the brief given to us by our client
Did you provide Pete with a copy of that brief prior to the work commencing?
No
Why then are you claiming the cost of the rehsoot?
Because we had to pay another photographer to do the shoot according to the clients brief.
Was the 2nd photographer given details of the brief supplied by your client?
Yes
And you paid this photographer?
Yes
Did you pay Pete?
No
To be clear, you had a requirement for the photographs to be taken and a budget to spend on this. You hired one photographer, Pete, who did not receive specific details of the requirements and subsequently did not pay for his work. You then hired a second photographer to whom you did provide specific details of the requirements and subsequently did pay. Correct?
Yes
So you're asking for the first photographer, who wasn't paid, to pay for the cost or hiring the second photographer?
Yes
Wouldn't that mean that you won't have paid anything towards the cost of the work being done?
Yes

Bzzzt!

I could go on but I think it's pretty clear they're fighting a lost cause. They can only claim for their loss and if they won they'd only be compensated to the point they'd be at had the contract never happened - which would be hiring another photographer to do the shoot.

WRT to what you should do next Pete, that's up to you. I still think you will win if you argue the case on the point of law that is important - you did the work but didn't get paid. But clearly the situation is getting you down and you need to take that into account as well. If you do decide to go ahead maybe it's worth getting a friend to go along with you, a no nonsense businessman or similar who will stick to the point???
 
We were hoping that this would not be the case as we have been more than willing to offer you a fair and just some for the work carried out on a number of occasions.
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I hope that's a cut and paste. :D
 
rwotton said:
how would you even ask for an out of court settlement? if someone had taken me to court and then later said "I tell you what, lets settle out of court" I would laugh cause obviously they ahve no confidence in what their doing.
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An out of court settlement is not nessesrily an admission of guilt. It's sometimes less hassle to settle for a fee rather than having the hassle and time of court appearances when you could be out there earning money.
 
Quote ".........If you do decide to go ahead maybe it's worth getting a friend to go along with you, a no nonsense businessman or similar who will stick to the point??? "

Best advise so far Pete.

I'm with you all the way no matter what you decide to do.
 
Pete

I have remained out of this thread for certain reasons, but reading your post where you quoted a section of their email has prompted me to respond here.

I feel very strongly now, that by sending this email to you, these people have somewhat shot themselves in the foot. Their first comment suggesting they 'assume your swift departure was...' is simply that... i.e. an assumption. Let me offer some advice if I may... I have studied law, contract and commercial law, and have used it for many years in my capaity as a Project Manager having managed budgets in excess of 10M, and am also close to a law degree. One thing one never does in law is to make assumptions - they are ludicrous and do not stand up. If a judge saw that these people are making assumptions, then this would be considered against them as the judge may consider this [i.e. makig assumptions] a 'normal' part of their work and modus operandi.

Contracts are most certainly not based on assumptions, they are based on facts and real world events.

This letter/email to you is most certainly a attempt at bullying you. I'd submit it as evidence as such. Don't give in.

That's all I want to say on this, apart from wanting to wish you the very best of good luck.
 
theMusicMan said:
Pete

I have remained out of this thread for certain reasons, but reading your post where you quoted a section of their email has prompted me to respond here.

I feel very strongly now, that by sending this email to you, these people have somewhat shot themselves in the foot. Their first comment suggesting they 'assume your swift departure was...' is simply that... i.e. an assumption. Let me offer some advice if I may... I have studied law, contract and commercial law, and have used it for many years in my capaity as a Project Manager having managed budgets in excess of 10M, and am also close to a law degree. One thing one never does in law is to make assumptions - they are ludicrous and do not stand up. If a judge saw that these people are making assumptions, then this would be considered against them as the judge may consider this [i.e. makig assumptions] a 'normal' part of their work and modus operandi.

Contracts are most certainly not based on assumptions, they are based on facts and real world events.

This letter/email to you is most certainly a attempt at bullying you. I'd submit it as evidence as such. Don't give in.

That's all I want to say on this, apart from wanting to wish you the very best of good luck.
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:plus1: As the saying goes - if you assume, you make an ass of u and me. Their email is a poorly-conceived and produced piece of bully-boy tactics.
 
Sorry for bumping this so late in the day, I've just read the last page and bit of posts. I have to say that I agree with those saying the email pete got seems to be a poorly conceived and badly written bullying tactic.

Stick to your guns!
 
Having read through all the posts I have a question:

You were asked to shoot 10 apartments of 5 rooms each. Did your client specify it had to be done in one day, or was that your estimate of the time it would require?
 
All I can say is don't give in now. Why would they send an email like that? They want you to settle - that suggests they're scared of losing. Keep your chin up and fight them to the last. If you stand to only make £100 after costs with a settlement, then it's worth the risk continuing.

Sting the *******s for every penny you can.
 
Pete, if need be, beg, steal, borrow to keep this thing going.

I'm no expert, but as said, if they are as professional as they say they are, why the hell are they writing this crap bullying email, if it had come from their solicitor in form of a letter worded correctly with relevant content, then I would be in two minds about carrying on.

Submit it as evidence of bully boy tactics, get a solicitor, or competent person who has dealt with things like this before.

These people need to be taught a lesson that you can't bully people into submission, if they do it to you and get away with it, they will do it to others too. :bat:

Don't solicitors give you a 'free' sitting on the first visit???

PS Pxl8's post is great, make a copy and take this with you aswell.
 
But as been said, it might be an idea to knock it on the head posting in this thread until its all sorted out. Just incase they are reading any of this content, plus the court/judge might not agree in you 'washing your dirty laundry in public' so to speak.

Can the admins, 'cloak/withdraw' this thread until later??

If you want advice, help, shoulder to cry on just PM the people you want..
 
He has not posted since he replied in agreement, "totally" to my suggestion that they might be following the thread, so maybe he has stopped posting on this subject.
 
He's in Edinburgers for a few days at the mo I think, so might not reply :)
 
I'm about but I do feel that maybe this isn't the best place to discuss it.
 
petemc said:
I'm about but I do feel that maybe this isn't the best place to discuss it.
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Absolutely. If you need general advice, rather than specific legal advice or opinion, then choose one or two people and PM them to see if they are willing to continue via email.
 
for my 2 penath it boils down to 2 things personel pride and principle , loose either you have lost your integraty
yours gwh
 
I settled with them. Just couldn't be bothered with it all. Got £250.
 
succint!
any details, or is that part of the deal?

ok are you happy, ok content?

glad it's all over??

oops - too slow typing!
 
I'm glad its over with. Just didn't want to think about it anymore so I settled.
 
Sounds like a weight lifted mate, happy to hear that (y)
 
I suspect that you can't say more, but perhaps a post with a happy smiley or a sad smiley would satisfy those of us that have been following the saga and are dying to know the outcome.
 
I've told you the outcome. I settled. I couldn't be bothered fighting it anymore. I got money I'm happy with. Theres nothing more to it.
 
Pete is happy, its christmas he can enjoy it without stressing,

well done

maybe time to finally hit the close thread option and celebrate with a wee drink or two!
 
Nice one for getting it sorted (y) Here's to plenty of lucrative deals in the new year
trink391.gif
 
petemc said:
I've told you the outcome. I settled. I couldn't be bothered fighting it anymore. I got money I'm happy with. Theres nothing more to it.
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Hmmm. Considering the amount of support you've had on here about this subject I would have expected a bit more than the above.

I'm sure you have your reasons but at least you can draw a line under this whole affair.

Btw this isn't meant to be provocative, just an observation.
 
At the end of the day Pete they are other important considerations beside money mate. We are not talking thousands of pounds here and if settling for what you have has relieved the pressure and lets you get back to concentrating on new projects then I think you've done the right thing. Forget about it and start enjoying yourself again (y)
 
Sorry guys, I just wasn't in the mood earlier. The simple thing is that I decided I wanted to get rid of the whole thing so I could try and enjoy Xmas. I didn't want it hanging over my head. So I contacted my client, and said I would be happy to settle. We settled. I got the cheque, which by the way was a very hard thing to do. I collected it from their office. I was half expecting to be hit. Banked the cheque and I'm sending a letter to the courts to say its done. There is nothing else to it. I settled, got monies and its done. I'm sorry if people were hoping for a big explosive ending where I stuck it to the man and fought the good fight, but in the end I really stopped caring about all that. I still know I did a good job and I've seen the brochure that has the other images and they are no better than mine. I probably could have won, but at what cost? I showed them I meant business, proved my point and still feel confident in my work.
 
petemc said:
Sorry guys, I just wasn't in the mood earlier. The simple thing is that I decided I wanted to get rid of the whole thing so I could try and enjoy Xmas. I didn't want it hanging over my head. So I contacted my client, and said I would be happy to settle. We settled. I got the cheque, which by the way was a very hard thing to do. I collected it from their office. I was half expecting to be hit. Banked the cheque and I'm sending a letter to the courts to say its done. There is nothing else to it. I settled, got monies and its done. I'm sorry if people were hoping for a big explosive ending where I stuck it to the man and fought the good fight, but in the end I really stopped caring about all that. I still know I did a good job and I've seen the brochure that has the other images and they are no better than mine. I probably could have won, but at what cost? I showed them I meant business, proved my point and still feel confident in my work.
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Pete, you learned an important lesson in business here, sometimes it's better to be pragmatic and move on. Good decision (y)
 
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