Clients client didn't like the image, client can't pay me

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petemc

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Pete
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Ok fun time Friday. A client, who hasn't yet paid after nearly 2 months, now rings me and says that their client hated the images. They wanted images of their spacious apartments. So I shot them at 10mm with the flash. The lighting, white balance, contrast, sharpness, all was fine. My client was happy with them. Invoice sent. Today I hear that their client, who owns the property, hated them and is refusing to pay for them. They say its a large contract to them so they're having to bend over for them to keep it. So they're dumping my images and going with god knows. So now they're not getting the money to afford my fee. They said they're willing to pay, out their own pocket, half the fee. Now given that everytime I deal with this client they never pay on time, I dropped £100 off this project to get the job and did an extra half days work for free I'm sorely tempted to say "Nope, you paid for these images and its not my problem if you don't use them. £500 please." On the other hand, I could accept them at their word. On the other hand their design guy posted on a forum I'm on looking for a photographer because their director wanted someone else, even though I had just done a job for them.

So, what to do what to do.

edit: Ok in my own T&C it says that they can reject the photos if they pay a fee. I guess 50% of the original fee is as good as I'll get.
 
If I were you, I'd be asking them to pay the full amount. Its not your problem their client didn't pay. If they are dumping you, you may as well get what you can out of them now since you did do more work than is necessary for them.
 
ok hard lesson learnt i would take half the fee and not work with them again cos they are just gonna throw your T+C in your face, their loss surely? also think about changing your T+C's cos its not your problem that their client didnt like them, u did wat YOUR client asked .....
 
I would not compromise any more Pete. They commissioned you to do a job, you were happy with the work, your client was happy and you put in extra work. Considering the ongoing problems with this client that you have alluded to in your post they do not sound like a very professional outfit, it also sounds like they are going to use someone else for future work so I would insist on the full amount as contracturally agreed between you and them.
 
Pete - there are 2 issues here: the legal position and the commercial position. You could argue that your client has not rejected the images and so insist on the strict application of your T&Cs. But that way, you'll probably get no more work from them. On the other hand, from a commercial point of view you may want to take a more pragmatic line and do a deal with them on the basis that they will still send further work your way.

Its always a tough call.
 
You need to get a deposit in the future to cover yourself.
 
Agreed. They are making it fairly plain they wont use you again, so go for the whole amount. From what you say in your T&C's, that doesnt really count, as THEY are your client, and THEY initially accepted the images. Hardly your fault if THEIR client didn't. I would however add a caveat onto acceptance/rejection of images in your T&C's about a timescale limit just for future reference.
 
kissfoto said:
Did you have a written contract, if so,who was it with. I would tempted to pay a few pounds to send a 'solitors' letter just to confirm that you me business. Not your problem I'm afraid that their client did not like the images.... Ian (y)
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I've got emails back and forth negotiating the job and I sent them a license and invoice.

Londonchris said:
You need to get a deposit in the future to cover yourself.
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I've argued with this client before and they say its not how they work. They do eventually pay, just it takes time so I do still work with them.

LadyLens said:
I would however add a caveat onto acceptance/rejection of images in your T&C's about a timescale limit just for future reference.
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Already there. Payment in 30 days. No-one ever reads these things.

This is in my T&C...

Unless a rejection fee has been agreed in advance, there is no right to reject on the basis of style or composition.
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. They might argue that they're rejecting them because they have no use for them.
 
Then legally they haven't got a leg to stand on, I think the phrase is constructive notice, or some such [must be a lawyer round here somewhere ;) ]

So Pete, the ball is your court really, fight them for the full amount, even through the small claims court if you have to, or accept the 50% they are offering [again, I would allow them a week to get payment to you or offer is rescinded] and never work for them again. It sounds like they are not going to offer you work anyway, and if they do, they will think you are an easy target for their own cash flow if you dont stand firm.

Edit: I pressume from what you have said you didnt agree a rejection fee with them before hand?
 
If you have to take the hit, £250 is better than nothing but then dump them. You also need to be harder and willing to say no to a client like this who are obviously playing you. I know you have problems believing work will still come in if you turn down a job but I seem to remember saying to you months ago "there's no point taking work that's going to end up costing you money"

I also think you went the wrong way taking money off the top, if you want to continue working with with a client that won't pay on time ADD £100 don't subtract it, then offer them it as an incentive to pay on time. If they don't like that tell them the truth, it's their own fault that they are too much trouble to work for. Tell them you are in business to make money not lose it.

I think this is very important for you too, get any offers of work on proper company stationary, with a proper signature, via snail mail.
 
So the collective decision is that *my* client was happy with the work and that they should pay me in full for services rendered?
 
Looks that way ;)

Write to them today laying out exactly the amount you want [full amount] stating why they are not in a position to only pay 50%

if you go for 50%, write to them [snail mail] making it clear it is a limited offer as a gesture of goodwill, further refusal to pay will result in legal action for the full amount....be tough, your work is good enough and deserves fighting for Pete.
 
I can't really afford a solicitor at the moment so I'll see what they come back with.
 
Exactly. Take you time to write a very concise and firm letter, laying out the applicable parts of your T'C's that they have not paid attention to and hopefully it wont get that far anyway.

Small claims court you can do without a solicitor, but as FB says, there is a fee and can even be done online these days. The fee seems to be £30 reading all this lot [see link below] but best contact them if using it to be sure.

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/onlineservices/mcol/userguide/claimant/information.htm
 
IanC_UK said:
you definitely need to put this all in writing mate, phone calls are NOT enough, you MUST get stuff in writing !
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What am I writing? Something detailing what happened to sort the shot, any issues that were ironed out and that they were happy with my work, and the few emails / calls to get the payment which never happened? Then talk about this, and what action I'll be looking to take if its not resolved? Do I send it to my contact at the company or the MD?

Brains said:
Did you get a solicitor to draw up your terms?
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I'm using the ones by the AOP. Seem good enough.
 
i was going to type and answer but Ladylens beat me to it :) what she said :) ^^

Just basically need to explain why you want full payment, as THEY have breached the T&C's. Its irrelevant that their customer didnt like the pics, have they returned them ? or are they going to use them anyway ? (sorry im in cynic mode a lot lately) lol
 
They said they are going to return the CD's. Hardly stops them copying them though.
 
it strikes me that your client needs to get his own T&Cs sorted out with his own clients, especially since thier inefficiency will probably end up with you taking a large financial pill on thier behalf.
 
And email it to my contact or the MD or actually recorded delivery to my contact?
 
Ok I've drafted a letter. The names have been changed to protect the guilty ;)

Following on from my telephone conversation on Friday 1st June 2007 with Guy1 of CompanyA, I am formally writing to request full payment for services rendered relating to the photography of Apartments.

The fee for the shoot was agreed at £500 on March 27th 2007 with Guy2 of CompanyA. This was for 1 day's shoot and processing of the images. Unfortunately the shoot ran late and we had to visit the last location another day. I was happy to ignore this and get the job done to the agreed budget. I sent the CD's as soon as they were ready. There was an issue raised about licensing of the images due to a miscommunication. Guy1 was under the impression that they would be able to use the images for anything, essentially royalty free. I however was under the impression that they were only for use with the brochure. I apologised for this and agree to let them use the images as they needed.

I emailed the invoice and license to them on April 12th 2007. After this I didn't hear back from them so the images were clearly acceptable. On April 26th I received an email from Guy2 stating that the invoices would be paid “tomorrow”, April 27th. They were not paid then. I visited the office a few days later and spoke to Guy2 who said that their accountant was in the process of doing them there and then. I sent Guy2 an email on May 3rd 2007 asking for an update to this but I did not receive a reply. On May 16th I sent Guy2 a message via MSN Messenger and again did not receive a reply. During the week of May 14th - 20th I rang CompanyA and spoke to Guy2 who assured me the invoices would be paid by Friday 18th May. This never happened. I rang CompanyA and spoke to Guy3 about the invoices on Tuesday 29th May who said he was working on the accounts and would ring me on Wednesday to discuss it. I rang on Wednesday and spoke to Guy1 who said he would email Guy3 to speed up the process. Under clause 7 of my terms and conditions, supplied with the invoice, it states;
“Payment by the Agency will be expected for the commissioned work within 30 days of the issue of the relevant invoice.”
It has been over 6 weeks since the invoice was emailed.

On Friday 1st June I received a call from Guy1 stating that their client was unhappy with the photography of their apartments. Guy1 kindly offered me 50% of the original fee for my time. However under clause 9 of my terms and conditions, which were supplied with invoice;
“Unless a rejection fee has been agreed in advance, there is no right to reject on the basis of style or composition.”
No such fee was negotiated, only the original £500 for the shoot. Given that no complaints were made about the images there is no ground to reject them and you would be in breach contract under 2 clauses laid out in my terms and conditions. If this is not settled within 72 hours I will be contacting my solicitor and looking to take this to the small claims court.
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Hows that sound?
 
Not bad - delete the word "kindly" and change "them" to "you"
 
mobilevirgin said:
Not bad - delete the word "kindly" and change "them" to "you"
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Done thanks. I'll probably send it tomorrow or Monday. I'm curious to wait and see what they come back with first. If they come back with £250 I'll say its unnaceptable and I'll be formally writing to you about it then send this.
 
petemc said:
Ok I've drafted a letter. The names have been changed to protect the guilty ;)
Hows that sound?
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Here's what I'd send, or something like it. It sounds harsh perhaps but at the end of the day they're not saying they didn't like your work. What they're saying is they want to renegotiate your fee because they haven't been paid. That's their problem, not yours. They know the situation, they're just trying to minimise their loss. I wouldn't bother sending it to the MD, provided it's correctly addressed to your contact and sent recorded delivery that's adequate.

We're just about to go to court with someone who's doing exactly the same thing with us, get the job done, happy with the results and then doesn't want to pay :razz:

Dear sirs,

I refer to invoice no #### which was issued on a/b/c and is now well overdue for payment despite numerous reminders and promises to pay.

I am sorry to hear that your client is unwilling to pay you but as the work was carried out in accordance with the brief received I expect full payment within the next 7 days.
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After that if they don't pay you need to decide if you go to court, accept something less than your due or write it off as a bad debt.
 
Thankd dod, I was scratchin my head over that first bit. (y)

Dear xxx
I am writing in reference to invoice no 0000 which was submitted to you on 12/04/2007 and is now well overdue for payment despite numerous reminders and promises to pay.

The fee for the shoot was agreed at £500 on March 27th 2007 with Guy2 of CompanyA. This was for 1 day's shoot and processing of the images. Unfortunately the shoot ran late, a problem not of my making and we had to visit the last location another day. I was happy to ignore this and get the job done to the agreed budget despite the extra time not considered in the original quote. I sent the CD's as soon as they were ready. There was an issue raised about licensing of the images due to a miscommunication. Guy1 was under the impression that they would be able to use the images for anything, essentially royalty free. I however was under the impression that they were only for use with the brochure. I opted to allow full licensing for the images as a gesture of goodwill and agreed to let them use the images as they needed.

I emailed the invoice and license to them on April 12th 2007. No response was forthcoming so the images were clearly acceptable to yourselves. This was further confirmed on April 26th when I received an email from Guy2 stating that the invoices would be paid “tomorrow”, April 27th. Unfortunately, they were not paid ‘tomorrow’. I visited the office a few days later and spoke to Guy2 who said that your accountant was in the process of doing them there and then. I sent Guy2 an email on May 3rd 2007 asking for an update to this but I did not receive a reply. On May 16th I sent Guy2 a message via MSN Messenger and again did not receive a reply. During the week of May 14th - 20th I rang CompanyA and spoke to Guy2 who assured me the invoices would be paid by Friday 18th May. Once again payment never arrived. I rang CompanyA and spoke to Guy3 about the invoices on Tuesday 29th May, who assured me he was working on the accounts and would ring me on Wednesday to discuss it. I rang on Wednesday and spoke to Guy1 who said he would email Guy3 to speed up the process.

Under clause 7 of my terms and conditions, supplied with the invoice, it states;
“Payment by the Agency will be expected for the commissioned work within 30 days of the issue of the relevant invoice.”
It has been over 6 weeks since the invoice was emailed.

On Friday 1st June I received a call from Guy1 stating that their client was unhappy with the photography of their apartments. Guy1 offered me 50% of the original fee for my time and a return of the CD. As you have now been in possession of the CD for some 6 weeks or more and already have been given full licence to use the images for publications other than the original brochure, return of it has no bearing on this matter.
However under clause 9 of my terms and conditions, which were supplied with invoice;
“Unless a rejection fee has been agreed in advance, there is no right to reject on the basis of style or composition.”
No such fee was negotiated, only the original £500 for the shoot. Given that no complaints were made about the images, there are no ground to reject them and you would be in breach contract under 2 clauses laid out in my terms and conditions, therefore, if this outstanding matter is not settled within 72 hours I will be contacting my solicitor and looking to take this matter further through legal channels.

I look forward to your prompt reply and full payment in the very near future.
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