Concerned mum wants law changed

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Jim
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#41
This was last Saturday, it was a group of five men described as aged 20 to 50 and of foreign nationality, who admitted to taking pictures of her daughter including close-ups. The woman was in the food court area with her husband and daughter, the men were not in the food court but were 'near', no mention of cameras, long lenses or photographers on a day out............cold have been mobile phones?
Like most shopping centres it is private ground so permission would have been required.
Anyway, security had a word, weren't convinced, asked them to leave and then escorted from the centre.
 
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#42
I wonder what her issue is. What does she think the pictures are going to be used for and what harm does she think is being done to anyone? Perhaps she wont be able to coherently articulate her fears apart from a general feeling that men with cameras are perverts and she needs to protect her daughter from them.

How she would react if it was a group of women with phones would be interesting and if she'd react differently I'd be annoyed that I can be a part of a group which is perhaps one of the few which society feels justified in targeting, middle aged men with cameras. The reactions I get when I'm by myself are completely different to when I'm with my wife and the conclusion I draw is that some especially in my experience women and some mainly younger males are far too reactionary, judgemental and needlessly confrontational when encountering behavior they don't approve of but if challenged would no doubt not recognise themselves as being reactionary and aggressive.

Anyway. There are aspects of life in the UK that I think would be more understandable in Kabul or somewhere, it's maybe social media hysteria and group think brought into the real world.
She says she was concerned were the photos would end up, and who would be looking at the photos. :thinking:
 
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#43
This was last Saturday, it was a group of five men described as aged 20 to 50 and of foreign nationality, who admitted to taking pictures of her daughter including close-ups. The woman was in the food court area with her husband and daughter, the men were not in the food court but were 'near', no mention of cameras, long lenses or photographers on a day out............cold have been mobile phones?
Like most shopping centres it is private ground so permission would have been required.
Anyway, security had a word, weren't convinced, asked them to leave and then escorted from the centre.
Well in that case, that does sound a little strange. :thinking:
 
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#45
what they don't relise id that just "deleting" a photo does not mean it has been eradicated, the date is still there and can be retrieved. So the lady is on a looser straight away and those pictures could be used anywhere
 
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jonbeeza
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#46
But she wants the law changed, so nobody can take photos of strangers. Or probably just minors maybe.
But anyway, the actions of some silly people, make it harder for some of us who like photography as a hobby, and as a profession.
 
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#48
She says she was concerned were the photos would end up, and who would be looking at the photos. :thinking:
Yes, but what does that mean and what exactly are her fears? Maybe these are more interesting questions.

Some seem to be quick to judge and maybe on some unacknowledged level like the drama of confrontation and the reinforcement and group involvement and approval that may come with it. They presumably believe they and people like them who share their world view are best placed to make value judgements and then label or even persecute other people.

I do dislike the lynch mob mentality and there are perhaps people who seem to be just aching to be enraged and looking to take action on something. It's strange that people who'd probably see themselves as caring and inclusive and all the right things can turn into apparent extremists who'd make ISIS shiver and yet they wouldn't recognise themselves as being seen as behaving in inappropriate or extreme in the eyes of others.
 

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#49
Sound like the paranoia bug has taken hold in you as well.
I don`t think so, as when I was shooting with a film camera I was just the same but that`s me.
 
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#50
the danger of anyone with a tele lens being branded a paedo ..
Chances are they where using 24-70mm lenses, to most people they look like a telephoto lens. Possibly shooting at wide angle trying out "Street" photography for the first time so looking uncomfortable.

The mum is looking after her little darling who most likely is a nightmare at school "knowing all her rights".
 

wack61

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#51
10 years ago my wife and I took our kids to Florida , stayed in a disney hotel

I asked the lifeguard if i could take pictures of my kids in the outdoor pool

he looked at me like he'd never been asked that question before and said , sure, why wouldn't you be allowed to take pictures of your kids

It's a UK thing , paranoid parents worrying about somebody with a camera while their kids are connected 24/7 to the internet where the real danger is without giving it a thought
 
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#52
I don`t think so, as when I was shooting with a film camera I was just the same but that`s me.
I don`t think so, as when I was shooting with a film camera I was just the same but that`s me.
The paranoia bug does not differentiate between film or digital. if you have it you have it.
 

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#54
The paranoia bug does not differentiate between film or digital. if you have it you have it.
Never suffered from paranoia while taking photos in my life, it`s just me when I think why should I take photos of children that are not mine.
 
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#56
This paranoia was kicked off about 30 years ago and was thoroughly ridiculed in the Brass Eye comedy series at the time.
 

sirch

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#57
I find it slightly curious that people think it’s fine to take portraits of strangers and argue they are doing nothing wrong but then often don’t have the courage of their convictions to go and ask the subject if they mind being photographed. If my hobby was just randomly knocking on people’s doors, would that be OK? There’s no law against it after all.

I know people like Bruce Gilden and Dougie Wallace produce good work but they are kind of in the “knocking on your door” camp in that they get in the subject’s face and even use flash, so whilst there is no permission sought it is obvious what they are doing. Still pretty disturbing for the subjects though.

I suppose, for me, you either need to be open and honest about what you are doing one way or another, or don’t do it.
 
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#58
Yes, but what does that mean and what exactly are her fears? Maybe these are more interesting questions.

Some seem to be quick to judge and maybe on some unacknowledged level like the drama of confrontation and the reinforcement and group involvement and approval that may come with it. They presumably believe they and people like them who share their world view are best placed to make value judgements and then label or even persecute other people.

I do dislike the lynch mob mentality and there are perhaps people who seem to be just aching to be enraged and looking to take action on something. It's strange that people who'd probably see themselves as caring and inclusive and all the right things can turn into apparent extremists who'd make ISIS shiver and yet they wouldn't recognise themselves as being seen as behaving in inappropriate or extreme in the eyes of others.
Probably worried about the images being viewed in a sexual manner, I would have thought. Otherwise, what other worry could there be?
 
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#59
10 years ago my wife and I took our kids to Florida , stayed in a disney hotel

I asked the lifeguard if i could take pictures of my kids in the outdoor pool

he looked at me like he'd never been asked that question before and said , sure, why wouldn't you be allowed to take pictures of your kids

It's a UK thing , paranoid parents worrying about somebody with a camera while their kids are connected 24/7 to the internet where the real danger is without giving it a thought
I may be wrong but I blame social media and wider media hysteria and group think reinforcement. I'm pretty sure people don't spontaneously develop these paranoid attitudes and prejudices by themselves, or maybe they do, I think they possible come about after prolonged exposure to the diarrhea they're involved in on social media or witness on TV.

Its annoying that a man with a camera is so suspect but sadly I think that's possibly the case sometimes at his point in time.
 
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#60
This is what she put on her facebook page. (and there are no photos on her page)
So I have thought long and hard before posting this but feel people need to be made aware of the dangers that surround our children every day. On Sunday myself Paul and Grace were out in the town, Grace had gotten a build a bear and while in the Buchanan Galleries asked if she could have a Burger King for lunch, we went up to the food court, had lunch then went to have a look around next, we went down the stair in next and a very kind lady who actually knows Paul's family took Paul to the side to tell him that a group of men also sitting in the food court had been taking Pictures of Grace, Paul then told me and I asked him to stay in the shop with Grace, when myself and the woman left the shop the 5 men were standing waiting outside next, I approached them and asked if they had been taking pictures of my child, they said no and I asked them to show me their phones 2 men didn't have pictures but another one of the men had 3 pictures of Grace on his phone, he had zoomed right in to her to take, there was nothing else in the images just a really close up of her. I became upset and started shouting asking him why he had pictures of my daughter he replied that he always took pictures of children I told him that this is not ok and delete her pictures Paul had come out by this point and asked security to come over who removed the men from the centre. My imidiate thought for Grace's safety she knew something was wrong and could see I was upset so she started crying, we just got a taxi and took her straight home. We called the police who came out to see us, however the scary scary thing is there is no law in place that prevents anyone from taking pictures of children in public without concent!!!! So basically anyone can take pictures of our children and theres nothing that can be done about it, this sickened me. Please please keep your kids close don't take your eyes of them. I have no evidence but feel like they were watching us to try grab her and that's why they took her picture.
 
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#61
Never suffered from paranoia while taking photos in my life, it`s just me when I think why should I take photos of children that are not mine.
And why should you take photographs of anything that is not yours? or conversely, why not?
Do you categorise things into things that you may shoot and things that you may not.?

Why do you put children in to the banned category?
 
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#62
Probably worried about the images being viewed in a sexual manner, I would have thought. Otherwise, what other worry could there be?
I don't know. Do people really think men will be self pleasuring themselves looking at pictures of their children in normal dress and in normal situations and surroundings? I suppose there's a fetish for everything but is this a genuine and real fear? Really?

I suppose there's also the embarrassment factor. If the picture went viral I suppose they could feel negatively about it and think that their children would be traumatised when they're of an age to be. I do struggle to understand how taking a picture innocently and taking it unobtrusively could be viewed as such a threat.

Having said all that I don't really understand the whole street thing and looking at pictures of strangers doesn't usually interest, me especially the zero dof ones, unless there's some social or historic significance but to be honest I don't think much street stuff falls into this category. Maybe in 50 years time I'd be interested but pictures of strangers on the high street in modern times usually phase me.
 
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#63
There is a gulf between street photography, photographing children and what (at least) appears to have gone on from the accounts that are now coming in.

I don’t think anyone here would disagree with me that zooming in on a phone to isolate a child that isn’t yours is a typical amateur photography style, think of the pixelation alone!!!
 
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#64
This is what she put on her facebook page. (and there are no photos on her page)
So I have thought long and hard before posting this but feel people need to be made aware of the dangers that surround our children every day. On Sunday myself Paul and Grace were out in the town, Grace had gotten a build a bear and while in the Buchanan Galleries asked if she could have a Burger King for lunch, we went up to the food court, had lunch then went to have a look around next, we went down the stair in next and a very kind lady who actually knows Paul's family took Paul to the side to tell him that a group of men also sitting in the food court had been taking Pictures of Grace, Paul then told me and I asked him to stay in the shop with Grace, when myself and the woman left the shop the 5 men were standing waiting outside next, I approached them and asked if they had been taking pictures of my child, they said no and I asked them to show me their phones 2 men didn't have pictures but another one of the men had 3 pictures of Grace on his phone, he had zoomed right in to her to take, there was nothing else in the images just a really close up of her. I became upset and started shouting asking him why he had pictures of my daughter he replied that he always took pictures of children I told him that this is not ok and delete her pictures Paul had come out by this point and asked security to come over who removed the men from the centre. My imidiate thought for Grace's safety she knew something was wrong and could see I was upset so she started crying, we just got a taxi and took her straight home. We called the police who came out to see us, however the scary scary thing is there is no law in place that prevents anyone from taking pictures of children in public without concent!!!! So basically anyone can take pictures of our children and theres nothing that can be done about it, this sickened me. Please please keep your kids close don't take your eyes of them. I have no evidence but feel like they were watching us to try grab her and that's why they took her picture.

Her poor child is going to grow up as distressed, fearful, mixed up, and as paranoid as herself.
Now whose fault is that?
 
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#65
This is what she put on her facebook page. (and there are no photos on her page)
So I have thought long and hard before posting this but feel people need to be made aware of the dangers that surround our children every day.
I may be wrong but I'd guess she spends a lot of time on social media. I also may be wrong but I'd guess her child was upset and crying because of the atmosphere she created by instigating a confrontation when perhaps there could have been another way of either resolving it or removing themselves from it.
 

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#66
And why should you take photographs of anything that is not yours? or conversely, why not?
Do you categorise things into things that you may shoot and things that you may not.?

Why do you put children in to the banned category?
For me and me only I shoot what I want and when, I have taken many many photos of my own children as they were growing up, plus I have taken photos of my niece and her two young daughters ( She asked me too ). I just don`t go and take photos of children that are not mine, last year I was in Hove lagoon and a man and wife came over and asked if I`d take some photos of their children learning to windsurf so I gave them my email and phone number and then took some shots. Later that day I sent them over to them and they were over the moon with them. We are now good friends because of the photos, so if a family member asked me to do it then YES I will but I have to be asked first.
 

Fuji Dave

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#67
Her poor child is going to grow up as distressed, fearful, mixed up, and as paranoid as herself.
Now whose fault is that?
Mothers fault 100%, and with her getting upset made her daughter cry.
 
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#68
There is a gulf between street photography, photographing children and what (at least) appears to have gone on from the accounts that are now coming in.

I don’t think anyone here would disagree with me that zooming in on a phone to isolate a child that isn’t yours is a typical amateur photography style, think of the pixelation alone!!!
The guy may be a perv. He may be perfectly innocent and may just like pictures of children, from a joyous point of view. Maybe he just thought she was a beautiful child, in a perfectly innocent non pervy way. I don't know.

We don't have children. We live close to a school and I do think that watching the children playing or just walking to and from school is a nice thing to do... sometimes they smile and wave, shout "hello" etc but I do know how this could look if someone was predisposed to be judgemental. I feel the need to add that I'm attracted to women and specifically to mature women :D and I'm married.

It's a shame we have people with harmful intent ditto it's a shame that we have people who are quick to assume harmful intent where there may be none.
 
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#69
For me and me only I shoot what I want and when, I have taken many many photos of my own children as they were growing up, plus I have taken photos of my niece and her two young daughters ( She asked me too ). I just don`t go and take photos of children that are not mine, last year I was in Hove lagoon and a man and wife came over and asked if I`d take some photos of their children learning to windsurf so I gave them my email and phone number and then took some shots. Later that day I sent them over to them and they were over the moon with them. We are now good friends because of the photos, so if a family member asked me to do it then YES I will but I have to be asked first.
my criteria is somewhat different. I shoot what I either find interesting or that will make an interesting image.
in all things I am constrained by my moral judgements, and the law.
Children going about their normal lives fall foul of neither of these constraints.
Any more than photographing any living thing does.

There are things and situations that I would not photograph., but these are more controlled by circumstance, situation or decency, than by any particular category.

For instance I would probably shoot an ongoing terrorist incident. However I am unlikely to publish them unless asked to supply them to an appropriate public service..
Such images can have an inherent historic or evidential interest, however this is countered in the short term, by an inappropriate voyeuristic element. So while such things should be photographed, their use should be heavily prescribed.
 

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#70
The only time I have ever felt bad taking photos was, the Shoreham airshow crash. I knew in my mind it would end up bad but I carried on as I knew the police would want images of that day. I still look at them every year now too.
 
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#71
I have no evidence but feel like they were watching us to try grab her and that's why they took her picture.
No evidence, but happy to accuse people! Society needs protection from people like her!

Had a similar situation when out photographing surfing from a beach, bloke accused me of photographing his daughter when she ran in front of me, he did not like my reply that if I had been taking photos of kids it would not be ugly ones!
 

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#72
Another thing for me too is, if I take a photo of someone and they come up and ask did you take my photo I will say No it was a bird or something else. As imo if the photographer goes off on one then that might give others a bad name, but I was always taught to use polite manners.
 

wack61

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#73
If they ever try and change the law to stop outdoor photography or impose restrictions on what you can take pictures of it'll be the end of photography.

some years ago my daughter was in a basketball team , she wanted some pictures of her playing so I asked the coach , he looked at my camera and lens, there was some umming and arring then he said yes but you'll need to ask every parent if it's OK , get them to sign to that effect but if one says no you can't

I didn't even bother asking so she has no pictures of her playing basketball though some were taking pictures with their phones which must've been Ok with it not being a real camera
 
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#74
We have lost far to many of our rights because people are too polite to fight for them, if someone accuses me of being a pedo they had best be prepared for a less than polite answer!
If this woman had started shouting at me in a cafe whilst I was breaking no law she would of got her answer in no uncertain terms, we have far too many accusations without any evidence in our society, we are fast becoming intolerant of anybody who does not conform to the social norms and apparently taking photos in public may be the next next target for a hysterical public attack.
 
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#75
I don't know. Do people really think men will be self pleasuring themselves looking at pictures of their children in normal dress and in normal situations and surroundings? I suppose there's a fetish for everything but is this a genuine and real fear? Really?

I suppose there's also the embarrassment factor. If the picture went viral I suppose they could feel negatively about it and think that their children would be traumatised when they're of an age to be. I do struggle to understand how taking a picture innocently and taking it unobtrusively could be viewed as such a threat.

Having said all that I don't really understand the whole street thing and looking at pictures of strangers doesn't usually interest, me especially the zero dof ones, unless there's some social or historic significance but to be honest I don't think much street stuff falls into this category. Maybe in 50 years time I'd be interested but pictures of strangers on the high street in modern times usually phase me.
I think it was a Nick Hedges that specialised in photographing children in the street, it was normally places like Liverpool and Birmingham I think, or maybe London, I forget now. Or maybe I am mixing him up with Phil Maxwell, or maybe it was both who specialized in taking photos of children in the street. Either way, they would walk the streets for hours, snapping photos of children, it seems all done without any suspicion or negative thoughts.

Now I do love looking at those old photos, it showed the poverty of some inner cities. It showed the children of the area, and of the hard times etc. I see some old photos of the 1960s and 1970s, and I can remember some of the children in the old photos, and I still see a few of the people in the photos, who are now in their 60s possibly.

I don't think we will have anything like that in the future, not unless you trawl faceberk and other social media sites.
But I don't think all the photos of the future, showing children stuffing burgers and fries into their mouths, along with their parents, will have the same effect on you, when viewed in fifty years time. Or maybe they will, who knows.


By the way, me and the missus are those grandparents, who do take the grand children to such places. Oh and yes, we do take photos of our food, with the grandchildren. :)
 
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#78
This is what she put on her facebook page. (and there are no photos on her page)
So I have thought long and hard before posting this but feel people need to be made aware of the dangers that surround our children every day. On Sunday myself Paul and Grace were out in the town, Grace had gotten a build a bear and while in the Buchanan Galleries asked if she could have a Burger King for lunch, we went up to the food court, had lunch then went to have a look around next, we went down the stair in next and a very kind lady who actually knows Paul's family took Paul to the side to tell him that a group of men also sitting in the food court had been taking Pictures of Grace, Paul then told me and I asked him to stay in the shop with Grace, when myself and the woman left the shop the 5 men were standing waiting outside next, I approached them and asked if they had been taking pictures of my child, they said no and I asked them to show me their phones 2 men didn't have pictures but another one of the men had 3 pictures of Grace on his phone, he had zoomed right in to her to take, there was nothing else in the images just a really close up of her. I became upset and started shouting asking him why he had pictures of my daughter he replied that he always took pictures of children I told him that this is not ok and delete her pictures Paul had come out by this point and asked security to come over who removed the men from the centre. My imidiate thought for Grace's safety she knew something was wrong and could see I was upset so she started crying, we just got a taxi and took her straight home. We called the police who came out to see us, however the scary scary thing is there is no law in place that prevents anyone from taking pictures of children in public without concent!!!! So basically anyone can take pictures of our children and theres nothing that can be done about it, this sickened me. Please please keep your kids close don't take your eyes of them. I have no evidence but feel like they were watching us to try grab her and that's why they took her picture.
I smell BS, why would anyone show you their phones, especially after they just stated they hadn't been taking pictures !
 
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#79
Shirley Baker (Salford) and Tish Murtha (Elswick) also spring to mind, but they were both women and would probably be treated differently even in today's society
Yes the same photography style, children in the street, and in lovely black and white. Yes, probably unable to do that photography today, even being women.
 

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#80
the only time I have ever deleted a picture is when I took a photo of some police at an event. one of them ask if I would delete it , due to them doing undercover work , in the area , . this was a reasonable request , so I deleted it. on the other side of the coin a child ran into the frame , so I deleted it , but recovered it later
 
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