Conspiracy theories

Religion is certainly based on faith (as is IMO much of the so-called evidence for evolution, which you so rightly remind us is a theory) however I do not agree that bible-based faith is blind to evidence.
The problem is that so few people who argue against the bible and creation have really made a study of the bible and its evidence but rather merely dismiss it as being irrelevant to their ideas.
Not that that in itself is difficult to understand as the bible is so often misrepresented even by many of those who claim to believe in the God who inspired it to be written.
On the one hand you have people whose faith is in the bible and on the other you have people whose faith is in the opinion of other humans.

Gramps,

when science describes something as a theory, it is not used in the everydaty sense of the word, this site explains it far better than i could.

ps i was raised as christian, went to a religious school, and was a churchgoer for some time, so am aware of what is contained in the bible (which was written by humans..!) :)
 
I dont think the bible can be used as proof or evidence of anything. It's words written down by someone. There are no photographs, no physical objects etc. Its simply words that someone wrote.

Historical and archaeological evidence, fulfilled prophecy, medical & hygiene detail accuracy ... I could go on.
 
Tsk! it's the Word of God as revealed to Man, don't you know... and if you're Catholic the Church continues the revelation. If you're a fundie Protestant then the Bible is pretty much it.

I won't mention the Mormons or Gnostic texts.
 
Gramps,

when science describes something as a theory, it is not used in the everydaty sense of the word,

But it is spoken of and indoctrinated into others as fact and it isn't a fact, it is unproven.
 
gramps said:
Indeed, but who is the author?

The bearded dudes that wrote it as a set of moral guidelines to follow so we could all get along nice? You know, like be nice to your neighbour, help old ladies cross the road, don't steal off your mates, be careful not to murder other people. And so on.

Now that's a theory :)
 
The bearded dudes that wrote it as a set of moral guidelines to follow so we could all get along nice? You know, like be nice to your neighbour, help old ladies cross the road, don't steal off your mates, be careful not to murder other people. And so on.

Now that's a theory :)

Bit bloody radical!!
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Bit bloody radical!!

Tell me about it! Anyway it's a moot point as we know they write it of their own volition as there was no DAB radio back then and the AM signal was for use in emergencies only.
 
Historical and archaeological evidence, fulfilled prophecy, medical & hygiene detail accuracy ... I could go on.

Historical and archaeological evidence? So you really believe that someone parted a sea, and rose from the dead, actually died and came back to life?

I always assumed people thought of these things as metaphors etc, I didn't think people believe they truly happened. Is that what people believe?
 
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Historical and archaeological evidence? So you really believe that someone parted a sea, and rose from the dead, actually died and came back to life?


Chariot of the Gods (was God an Astronaut )
Its been years since I read it, but its very plausible ;)
 
Aren't conspiracy theories dependant on lies? So if the politicians, people in power etc never lie and therefore never get caught out lying, then surely conspiracy theories cease to exist by default?
 
But it is spoken of and indoctrinated into others as fact and it isn't a fact, it is unproven.

But the fossil record evidence does provide very strong proof to me. One thing that Darwin was never able to find was the method of change and hereditary traits, once the discovery of DNA came along everything tied together.

EDIT

Out of interest, do you see the possibility of any evidence changing your beliefs?
 
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I love a conspiracy theory, but I don't believe in any of them. That doesn't mean they're not true and that some even have some weight, but proof I've yet to see.

I've just joined the SCEPCOP forums to debate some of this stuff. I consider myself a real skeptic who looks at all angles with an open mind rather than a psuedoskeptic who already knows the answer to everything. ;)
 
[YOUTUBE]OBA6qlHW8po[/YOUTUBE]

Think these guys might have misinterpreted 'THE LORDS' message...

I saw this the other day. Brilliant entertainment.
 
The23rdman said:
I love a conspiracy theory, but I don't believe in any of them. That doesn't mean they're not true and that some even have some weight, but proof I've yet to see.

I've just joined the SCEPCOP forums to debate some of this stuff. I consider myself a real skeptic who looks at all angles with an open mind rather than a psuedoskeptic who already knows the answer to everything. ;)

You do know that forum is operated by the CIA?
 
gramps said:
Religion is certainly based on faith (as is IMO much of the so-called evidence for evolution, which you so rightly remind us is a theory) however I do not agree that bible-based faith is blind to evidence.
The problem is that so few people who argue against the bible and creation have really made a study of the bible and its evidence but rather merely dismiss it as being irrelevant to their ideas.
Not that that in itself is difficult to understand as the bible is so often misrepresented even by many of those who claim to believe in the God who inspired it to be written.
On the one hand you have people whose faith is in the bible and on the other you have people whose faith is in the opinion of other humans.

This touches on two of the pro-religion arguments that frustrate me most.

1) The assumption that all people need to have 'faith'. Faith is a belief structure that exists in the absence of sufficient evidence based reasoning. I don't have 'faith'. I have reasoned beliefs, and where there is insufficient reason and evidence to form a belief, I'm content to say I don't know, rather than rely on an emotionally pleasing alternative solution that can't stand up to any objective analysis.

2) That the Bible provides evidence for God's existence. It's a book collaborated from the tales of many humans, told many times to many people before finally being put in writing, and then translated from language to language, where language and meaning of words is constantly evolving and changing, and then interpreted either literally or figuratively by various self-appointed voices of that proposed faith. As far as sources go, that's about as unreliable and inconsistent as they can possibly come.

My beliefs are based on evidence. When the evidence changes, my beliefs will change in line. If someone can show me beyond reasonable doubt that the world is flat, and explain why we once wrongly believe it to be round, then I'll change my opinion as soon as I've exhausted all the arguments to the contrary.
 
You do know that forum is operated by the CIA?

You did say that you wouldn't tell anyone!
If I were you, I'd be keeping an eye out for a Black limo with tinted windows parked outside from now on ;)
 
Historical and archaeological evidence? So you really believe that someone parted a sea, and rose from the dead, actually died and came back to life?

I always assumed people thought of these things as metaphors etc, I didn't think people believe they truly happened. Is that what people believe?

Absolutely, the fact that you can't comprehend that as being possible does not mean that there is not a higher force who is able to do those things.


But the fossil record evidence does provide very strong proof to me. One thing that Darwin was never able to find was the method of change and hereditary traits, once the discovery of DNA came along everything tied together.

EDIT

Out of interest, do you see the possibility of any evidence changing your beliefs?

DNA has not proved the evolution of man from the animal species.
Do I see the possibility of evidence changing my mind?
There are two aspects to that, firstly is my mind closed? ... No, I am open to the examination of evidence but not just the views of others based on their desire to find an alternative to being subject to a Creator.
Do I think that evidence will ever be forthcoming? ... No because I have examined the scriptures, the archaeological and historical evidence, the fulfilled prophecy, the nature of God, the existence of Jesus Christ and the supreme value of his teachings and the evidence of the benefits of doing things Gods way.

This touches on two of the pro-religion arguments that frustrate me most.

1) The assumption that all people need to have 'faith'. Faith is a belief structure that exists in the absence of sufficient evidence based reasoning. I don't have 'faith'. I have reasoned beliefs, and where there is insufficient reason and evidence to form a belief, I'm content to say I don't know, rather than rely on an emotionally pleasing alternative solution that can't stand up to any objective analysis.

2) That the Bible provides evidence for God's existence. It's a book collaborated from the tales of many humans, told many times to many people before finally being put in writing, and then translated from language to language, where language and meaning of words is constantly evolving and changing, and then interpreted either literally or figuratively by various self-appointed voices of that proposed faith. As far as sources go, that's about as unreliable and inconsistent as they can possibly come.

My beliefs are based on evidence. When the evidence changes, my beliefs will change in line. If someone can show me beyond reasonable doubt that the world is flat, and explain why we once wrongly believe it to be round, then I'll change my opinion as soon as I've exhausted all the arguments to the contrary.

1) I don't think there is an assumption that all people need to have faith in the bible, though everyone exercises faith in something ... you have faith that your brakes will stop your car, that the lights will come on when you flick the switch, that there will be a future for your children etc.
Most people today do not have a spiritual faith and that is generally because they do not have the experience of spirituality that would give them faith ... only after use and experience do you learn to instinctively trust your brakes!
You may be content to say you don't know ... because you don't ... but does that mean that I don't?
How can you be so sure that I am not as convinced of my faith as you are not convinced?

2) Your comment comes from a lack of knowledge of the bible ... the very fact that the same theme of truth runs from Genesis through to Revelation, spanning thousands of years and some 40 bible writers is evidence in itself of a unique author.
My beliefs are based on fact ... and incidentally the bible at Isaiah 40.22 says "God is enthroned above the circle of the earth; its inhabitants are like grasshoppers." - How did Isaiah know?
 
I don't like conspiracy theories. I read this somewhere, may have been on this site.
Conspiracy theories happen when stupid people think they're smarter than clever people. pretty much sums it up for me.

The thing is though, us stupid people, are we to assume clever people aren't clever enough for the task, like any task that can be imagined within reality? like some of the conspiracies.

Are these clever people not clever enough for this, is this what we should think?

I cant quite see clever people not being clever enough myself.
 
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Absolutely, the fact that you can't comprehend that as being possible does not mean that there is not a higher force who is able to do those things.

Well there's something I never realised. I honestly didn't think people believed those parts were literal things that actually happened. I'm shocked that people believe in the bible that much that they think those things were true events.
 
Absolutely, the fact that you can't comprehend that as being possible does not mean that there is not a higher force who is able to do those things.




DNA has not proved the evolution of man from the animal species.
Do I see the possibility of evidence changing my mind?
There are two aspects to that, firstly is my mind closed? ... No, I am open to the examination of evidence but not just the views of others based on their desire to find an alternative to being subject to a Creator.
Do I think that evidence will ever be forthcoming? ... No because I have examined the scriptures, the archaeological and historical evidence, the fulfilled prophecy, the nature of God, the existence of Jesus Christ and the supreme value of his teachings and the evidence of the benefits of doing things Gods way.



1) I don't think there is an assumption that all people need to have faith in the bible, though everyone exercises faith in something ... you have faith that your brakes will stop your car, that the lights will come on when you flick the switch, that there will be a future for your children etc.
Most people today do not have a spiritual faith and that is generally because they do not have the experience of spirituality that would give them faith ... only after use and experience do you learn to instinctively trust your brakes!
You may be content to say you don't know ... because you don't ... but does that mean that I don't?
How can you be so sure that I am not as convinced of my faith as you are not convinced?

2) Your comment comes from a lack of knowledge of the bible ... the very fact that the same theme of truth runs from Genesis through to Revelation, spanning thousands of years and some 40 bible writers is evidence in itself of a unique author.
My beliefs are based on fact ... and incidentally the bible at Isaiah 40.22 says "God is enthroned above the circle of the earth; its inhabitants are like grasshoppers." - How did Isaiah know?

I'm not going to address everything because this will only get pulled, but with regards your quote:

Isaiah 40.22 says "God is enthroned above the circle of the earth; its inhabitants are like grasshoppers." - How did Isaiah know?

The full quote, as you well know, is:

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Depicting much more an image of a flat circle, with the skies as canopy over the top, rather than the Earth as a sphere.

Further, there are plenty of quotes that you could draw from the Bible that suggest anything but a spherical Earth:

The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.
— Daniel 4:11

Not to mention the multitude of quotes suggesting geocentrism - that the Earth is the centre of everything and that the Earth is static, and all other celestial objects such as the sun move around us.

He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
— Psalm 104:5

I could go on with quotes of the sun/moon being commanded to rise and set, to hover in the sky etc. as though it were them that were moving and not us.

All this highlights my point exactly. The bible is massively convoluted, often hypocritical, and open to such a range of interpretation that it has exceptionally limited valid application to any more substantive analysis of life, the universe and everything.
 
You did say that you wouldn't tell anyone!
If I were you, I'd be keeping an eye out for a Black limo with tinted windows parked outside from now on ;)

Don't let Cobra's friendly demeanor fool you. It won't be a limo ( you ain't going to the oscars), it'll be a black Chevy Suburban :)
 
Well there's something I never realised. I honestly didn't think people believed those parts were literal things that actually happened. I'm shocked that people believe in the bible that much that they think those things were true events.

When I was younger I accepted that people believed these things really happened, but have over the last 15 or so have been thinking it was just some in joke :|
 
This touches on two of the pro-religion arguments that frustrate me most.

1) The assumption that all people need to have 'faith'. Faith is a belief structure that exists in the absence of sufficient evidence based reasoning. I don't have 'faith'. I have reasoned beliefs, and where there is insufficient reason and evidence to form a belief, I'm content to say I don't know, rather than rely on an emotionally pleasing alternative solution that can't stand up to any objective analysis.

2) That the Bible provides evidence for God's existence. It's a book collaborated from the tales of many humans, told many times to many people before finally being put in writing, and then translated from language to language, where language and meaning of words is constantly evolving and changing, and then interpreted either literally or figuratively by various self-appointed voices of that proposed faith. As far as sources go, that's about as unreliable and inconsistent as they can possibly come.

My beliefs are based on evidence. When the evidence changes, my beliefs will change in line. If someone can show me beyond reasonable doubt that the world is flat, and explain why we once wrongly believe it to be round, then I'll change my opinion as soon as I've exhausted all the arguments to the contrary.

This is the best post I have seen you write on TP and I couldn't agree more with it.
 
This is the best post I have seen you write on TP and I couldn't agree more with it.

Though it pains me greatly to say it.....I agree with Joe. Kill me now.
 
2) Your comment comes from a lack of knowledge of the bible ... the very fact that the same theme of truth runs from Genesis through to Revelation, spanning thousands of years and some 40 bible writers is evidence in itself of a unique author.
My beliefs are based on fact ... and incidentally the bible at Isaiah 40.22 says "God is enthroned above the circle of the earth; its inhabitants are like grasshoppers." - How did Isaiah know?

Is it thought by people who believe in the bible that it was written by Jesus or god themselves or do people believe that humans wrote the bible? Like who actually put pen to paper in your belief?

Is this topic even allowed here? It's less about religion and more about creationism itself which cobra said was ok
 
Absolutely, the fact that you can't comprehend that as being possible does not mean that there is not a higher force who is able to do those things.


DNA has not proved the evolution of man from the animal species.
Do I see the possibility of evidence changing my mind?
There are two aspects to that, firstly is my mind closed? ... No, I am open to the examination of evidence but not just the views of others based on their desire to find an alternative to being subject to a Creator.
Do I think that evidence will ever be forthcoming? ... No because I have examined the scriptures, the archaeological and historical evidence, the fulfilled prophecy, the nature of God, the existence of Jesus Christ and the supreme value of his teachings and the evidence of the benefits of doing things Gods way.

Based on evidence you have examined, how old do you believe the Earth to be?
 
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