Course access for rallying

[ACX]

Hi folks, after a bit of advice.
There's a closed road rally coming up soon, I've been to it before however the two official spectator areas are pretty rubbish in terms of photography. I've always played it safe but I've realised that this doesn't seem the usual thing for rallying and if I'm to get some good photos I need to be in unofficial areas.

Watching footage of previous rallies and seeing other photos, I've seen that there's people usually lining the route well apart the designated spectator areas, what's the deal here? A few years ago I knew someone who basically just went up one of the closed roads (the access roads leading up to the actual route like half a mile away)
and watched from the junction with a group of others where the road was closed. This doesn't seem like the case of sneaking on as there's usually a marshal standing near them (it's not a ticketed event anyway, they only charge to park your car and I'm local enough to walk there).

Is this the done thing normally? Is anyone likely to say anything? (Obviously i wont be anywhere dangerous). They always go on about how "trespassing" can cause the event to be cancelled but it clearly happens. The route goes through several right of way footpaths (and obviously public roads) so I won't be trespassing on private land.

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble.. I'm just trying to play it safe for all! The reason for all this is I know someone who works at the local radio station who I reckon will be interested in publishing some photos. I'm hopeful that this starts getting the ball rolling with getting some photos published and I can follow some local talent when they head down to Oulton. I looked at accreditation for the event, but Level 1 accreditation doesn't give you anymore access and Level 2 Motorsport UK accreditation is ludicrously specific (and seems like an old boys club - you have to be directly referred by someone already accredited!).

Any advice welcome!

 

[Bodian]

Hi folks, after a bit of advice.
There's a closed road rally coming up soon, I've been to it before however the two official spectator areas are pretty rubbish in terms of photography. I've always played it safe but I've realised that this doesn't seem the usual thing for rallying and if I'm to get some good photos I need to be in unofficial areas.

Watching footage of previous rallies and seeing other photos, I've seen that there's people usually lining the route well apart the designated spectator areas, what's the deal here? A few years ago I knew someone who basically just went up one of the closed roads (the access roads leading up to the actual route like half a mile away)
and watched from the junction with a group of others where the road was closed. This doesn't seem like the case of sneaking on as there's usually a marshal standing near them (it's not a ticketed event anyway, they only charge to park your car and I'm local enough to walk there).

Is this the done thing normally? Is anyone likely to say anything? (Obviously i wont be anywhere dangerous). They always go on about how "trespassing" can cause the event to be cancelled but it clearly happens. The route goes through several right of way footpaths (and obviously public roads) so I won't be trespassing on private land.

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble.. I'm just trying to play it safe for all! The reason for all this is I know someone who works at the local radio station who I reckon will be interested in publishing some photos. I'm hopeful that this starts getting the ball rolling with getting some photos published and I can follow some local talent when they head down to Oulton. I looked at accreditation for the event, but Level 1 accreditation doesn't give you anymore access and Level 2 Motorsport UK accreditation is ludicrously specific (and seems like an old boys club - you have to be directly referred by someone already accredited!).

Any advice welcome!

Radio friendly photos sounds an interesting development!

You might find that all the footpaths / rights of way, and any open access land around the route, is legally closed for the duration of the rally for public safety reasons. That's what they do up in the forests in Cumbria with the major rallies. If they do that, then not only would you be trespassing - but also actually committing an offence if you use the roads/paths. But I guess it's a decision for you - the real risk is probably going on the actual course.

 

[A_S]

I get what you are saying.

You don't have to stay in the spectator pen at all - get there early and walk the stage, to a safe spot and watch/ photo from there.

If you get there under an hour before the first competitive car the stage is concidered "live" and the marshalls probably won't allow you to move. From this point you have a number of offical cars going through stage firstly cheif marshall aprox an hour before first car, then sequencially, saftey officer, spectator safety, 000, 00, 0 then first car. If you move and walk on a live stage when this is happening its likely to cause issues with the running of the stage, specially on closed road events, less so on forrest events

Having said that, if you are sensible - no issues and marshalls won't mind - Heed the advice and Park up at the spectator area or in somewhere where you aren't blocking access to potential escape routes for ambulances/fire and walk in, say 2-2.5 hours before first car and be in position when the cheif marshall comes through and the stage goes live.

Thats the safest bet. BUT once you get a bit more experience you will learn that it is possible to move and get a bit more savy about it.

This is coming from an MSA accredited rally photographer BTW - level 2 - which isn't so much an old boys club - like any other accreditation requires someone to accredit you -a publication etc as proof you are genuine media and not just a spectator looking to take photos, or sell pictures to competitors (which it specifically states is not a valid case for accreditation).

If the event is the east riding or the NW stages - any advice on access taken as I still need to do my research yet

 

[A_S]

Oh another good shout is to make sure you are safe, well away from the road - for example Ypres specifies that you need to be at least 50m away, even official photographers and certainly not on the outside of quick bends, in junctions (they will be taped and marshalled anyway) etc.

 

[Fixer]

Back in the days of 'Group B' I was stood actually on the track at night - had to turn my back on each car as it passed because they 'threw stones' backwards at me when they passed !!! 'Got some film photos somewhere. What a night !

 

[ACX]

Radio friendly photos sounds an interesting development!

You might find that all the footpaths / rights of way, and any open access land around the route, is legally closed for the duration of the rally for public safety reasons. That's what they do up in the forests in Cumbria with the major rallies. If they do that, then not only would you be trespassing - but also actually committing an offence if you use the roads/paths. But I guess it's a decision for you - the real risk is probably going on the actual course.

Haha I meant for their website!

This is the confusion in which I'm trying to clear up.. if they're "closed" why do I see groups lining the routes and in clear view of marshals. I'm trying to crack the unspoken code of rallying, I get the gist that it's "Publicly we want people here, but if you aren't, don't get in the way".

I don't believe foot access was closed last time, only vehicle traffic. Alternatively, I was going to ask land owners for permission to access their land.

 

[ACX]

I get what you are saying.

You don't have to stay in the spectator pen at all - get there early and walk the stage, to a safe spot and watch/ photo from there.

If you get there under an hour before the first competitive car the stage is concidered "live" and the marshalls probably won't allow you to move. From this point you have a number of offical cars going through stage firstly cheif marshall aprox an hour before first car, then sequencially, saftey officer, spectator safety, 000, 00, 0 then first car. If you move and walk on a live stage when this is happening its likely to cause issues with the running of the stage, specially on closed road events, less so on forrest events

Having said that, if you are sensible - no issues and marshalls won't mind - Heed the advice and Park up at the spectator area or in somewhere where you aren't blocking access to potential escape routes for ambulances/fire and walk in, say 2-2.5 hours before first car and be in position when the cheif marshall comes through and the stage goes live.

Thats the safest bet. BUT once you get a bit more experience you will learn that it is possible to move and get a bit more savy about it.

This is coming from an MSA accredited rally photographer BTW - level 2 - which isn't so much an old boys club - like any other accreditation requires someone to accredit you -a publication etc as proof you are genuine media and not just a spectator looking to take photos, or sell pictures to competitors (which it specifically states is not a valid case for accreditation).

If the event is the east riding or the NW stages - any advice on access taken as I still need to do my research yet

Thank you very much for your input! I had a feeling it would be that way with the marshals given what I've witnessed. I won't be crossing the stage, only accessing it from the same side and if I were to move it would be going back out and around.

I hope you weren't offended by my choice of words! I'm sure you can appreciate how, at the very beginning, it feels like there's so many hurdles and some may seem impossible to get over. I understand accreditation is to separate serious togs from casual snappers, I was just quite surprised at how it seemed like it was a lot stricter than MSV accreditation! The classic cycle of "Can't get accreditation because you're not published - can't get published because no accreditation". I was hoping this would get me on the path of being published and then go from there. (Whether or not they'll take it as a serious media source is another matter).

I won't be selling photos, if everything works out and the station want the photos, they'll be FOC.. They aren't in a position to pay for that sort of thing so that way I'm not really stepping on the toes for those who earn a living from it.

Yeah It's NW stages, I'm waiting for the official spectator areas to be released tomorrow and try and deduct if theres any identical routes from last years stages.

 

[A_S]

Yeah no offence taken, I get it, we have all been there. I've been there, back and there again.... Used to do circuit stuff - F3/GT/LMES/LMS back some years ago accredited. Fell out of it because of uni, professional qualifications and life and now I'm out I can't really get back in.... Although I haven't tried too hard or tried to call in any favours


With both the spectator areas/rules and media - there are genuine reasons, and most around safety. Particululaly on closed roads. There were some spectator fatalities about 15 years or so ago on the Jim Clark and since then things have understandably tightened up both for media and spectators - Health and safety wise and insurance wise. Hence not publishing full stage routes and funnelling spectators to specific points so events can be controlled and run at minimum risk.

Those with experience can get round this though - because at the end of the day on a public road or in a forest you can't control every single person..... hence why you see people at other places on the stage.

From a media perspective things needed to tighten up and a process was put in place nationwide and centrally to control exactly the same risks - 5m public lability insurance, marshal training, MSA registration and actually what you don't see is that we often also have to submit a risk assesment and our proposed locations (to the junction number) prior to an event and for this to be included in the safety plan and cross referenced by the clark of the course and cheif marshal when they drive the stage during that "live" hour before the first competitor. In fact we are supposed to be in position an hour before the first car as well, but sometimes this is not possible and there is leeway etc.

Thats the thing, like I say there is leeway, if you are sensible, get there early and go out the spectator area all will be good.

 

[swanseamale47]

I'm sure you'll be carefull but I've seen rally cars go a supprising long way off the course when it goes pear shaped. I like to have a big solid tree to hide behind

 

[Willid1]

I'm sure you'll be carefull but I've seen rally cars go a supprising long way off the course when it goes pear shaped. I like to have a big solid tree to hide behind

It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to have no imagination as to what might happen to a large metal vehicle, travelling at high speed, when something goes wrong, they can go ANYWHERE.

10 minutes watching any rally crash video highlights reel would show you nowhere is safe if you are within perhaps 100m of a rally stage, and father than that looking at some accidents!!

Have a great time but keep safe

D

 

[Craikeybaby]

Rather than starting a separate thread... Are there any rallies in the UK which are good for photography from the spectator areas? I haven't been to a rally for years, and was hoping to get to one this year, but haven't worked out which one yet.

 

[A_S]

To be honest - I wouldn’t know as I haven’t been to many over the past x years but…

Any event - possibly Severn valley/rallynuts running myherin where the spectator entrance is at devils bridge/the arch is good as there is a nice downhill/uphill section with plenty of good access to walk round a fair distance and plenty of good angles over crests etc.

Any event / possibly Cambrian running at brenig past the reservoir has a good spectator area

 

[Craikeybaby]

Thanks, they both look like good bets, I like the area around Myherin and it is a decent drive over from the Midlands. I will probably go to the Dukeries Rally, as that is likely my most local, but being at Donington Park, it is a bit too similar to circuit racing, as I alway associate rally with gravel roads in the forest.

 

[swanseamale47]

Rather than starting a separate thread... Are there any rallies in the UK which are good for photography from the spectator areas? I haven't been to a rally for years, and was hoping to get to one this year, but haven't worked out which one yet.

link This has some information. It's also worth contacting local car clubs, and motor sport car moding firms, they usually have a pretty good idea of whats coming up.

 

[hunnymonster]

Hi folks, after a bit of advice.

Simply: do whatever the marshall tells you, do not question If s/he thinks you're making it unsafe.and you refuse to comply they'll simply abandon the stage since they are essentially liable for any crowd-related incidents on their stage.

 

[A_S]

Thanks, they both look like good bets, I like the area around Myherin and it is a decent drive over from the Midlands. I will probably go to the Dukeries Rally, as that is likely my most local, but being at Donington Park, it is a bit too similar to circuit racing, as I alway associate rally with gravel roads in the forest.

now a days as i have to sign on i go the day before, but done Myherin, Dyfi, Cambrian stages etc many times in a day and I am North Birmingham (Sutton)

 

[Don Fischer]

I've only shot photo's at a rally years ago. Seems the road rally's I went to in Germany pretty much allowed you to get anywhere around the course's. Last one I went to was also years ago and was dirt bikes. Regular course up in Washington. I don't think I was supposed to stay in one spot there either. Something I did figure out at these rally's, if you were in a spot with a lot of people they were gonna be in the way shooting. I went around everywhere I was able and found spot's where vehicle's were coming out of turns to shoot and in those spots there simply weren't as many people around. Other places I got vehicles flying by to fast and never got a good photo. On the dirt bike course, one spot I found was a long jump. Could see them coming and see them leave. Another spot they called whoop de do's, got them slowed down well to take it and would get several shot's of them in the air. Seems to me from what I read that event's like that are a lot like taking portraits but the shooting area is a lot bigger! I think at the dirt bike course I used a 70-210 lens I had. Everything moving so fast a single mm lens would have been no good for me.

Old now and recently got into 4 wheeler's as I don't walk as well as I used to and love hunting. Now the 4 wheeler will get me around. Think there might be some rally's for them somewhere too so gonna look for them!

 

[ACX]

Thought I'd update this for future reference..

The Rally came and went over the weekend, I prepared my location over the week ensuring I didn't cross anywhere with a road closure. Marshals were happy enough me being there and they updated us on the events...

Which was unfortunate cause it was all bad news. Crashes in early Stages meant that they cancelled my stage due to time delay. Rain was forecast for the afternoon so I packed up seeing nothing more than a few marshal land rovers and the 00 car.

At least I saw them in the service area. Next year I think I might try heading out the other side before the road closure and get amongst some Commons land. The spot I picked out was pretty poor for photos in the end. I could try and risk a trespass, it seems many did this time round but I'm not sure I want to risk it. Apparently a few families trespassed on a farmers field and didn't keep their kids under control and they started chasing some pregnant lambs around.. so farmers may not be so friendly next time.


So in a way, I'm glad I avoided the spectator area, because I'd have paid £10 to see nothing at all! (And from the sounds of things they were packed).

The quest for decent rally photography continues...

 

[A_S]

One reason I went to SS1 and stayed for SS6. Was planninng to move but.. when cancelled decided to hold tight as if anything was going to run it was SS6 -> as first run of afternoon loop

All from remotes with the exception of 1st and 3rd

 

[ACX]

One reason I went to SS1 and stayed for SS6. Was planninng to move but.. when cancelled decided to hold tight as if anything was going to run it was SS6 -> as first run of afternoon loop

All from remotes with the exception of 1st and 3rd

View attachment 418315View attachment 418316View attachment 418317View attachment 418318View attachment 418319View attachment 418320

Great shots there! I haven't ever considered beacon fell due to having to get there at 7am.. unless people sneak in somewhere else?

 

[A_S]

I'm no expert on the spectator parking but

where i circled lots of people parked.
Road closure was at X
So they obviously walked in from there. I went past there at about 7AM and there was plenty of space

Lots of people parked in the yellow carpark -> that was meant to be media access point but when I got there it was full -> I suspect people had gone in and parked there before they blocked the road at X

The yellow on the left is where they were routing spectators to past the road closure so i presume spectator parking down there for the speccy zone.

Other yellow next to red cross is where a few people parked little carpark thing and they must have walked in from there

 

[ShinySideUp]

This has been enlightening. My recollection of rallying is people standing behind trees or walls, or even lining the course behind flimsy ropes and dodging out of the way of flying stones. To hear that there is now a 'spectator area', threats of cancellation and other 'woke' stuff makes me think that if I ever thought I might like to go to a rally for photography purposes, I would probably think again. It all sounds as if it is a little sterile these days. I always imagined walking through muddy forests to get to a fun place to see the cars but I can see I am likely to be 'removed' from the premises if I try now. What was wrong with just putting up a sign that says 'Motor racing is dangerous, spectators attend at their own risk'; it seemed to work in the past?

 

[A_S]

I am not really a fan of people who start using the word ‘woke’ and then think they are big and clever.

There is so much wrong with that commenr

Closed roads are particulally difficult now because of this. Your comment completely ignores this context…

Jim Clark Rally returns five years after fatal crash

Jim Clark Rally returns five years after fatal crash

Organisers promise "tighter controls" after three people were killed at the Borders event in 2014.

www.bbc.co.uk

Having said that

1.) you can still do all those things…
2.) yes there are official spectator areas - but just watch some videos… you won’t be stopped if you don’t use use them…
3.) they need a way to control access, parking and keep the roads clear for emergency access and routing people to a spectator carpark allows this and allows a smooth running of an event
4.) there not infinite marshals
5.) lots of people are clueless and need to be guided -> go watch some videos from the wyedean - it’s held in the Forest of Dean close to major cities and large population areas. It always attracts people and families with dogs, bikes and kids… these people have never been before and often stand on the outside of fast bends or head on into cars turning 90 right after a 400m straight… you need to be able to legislate for people like this - who are nieve and stand in stupid places

 

[ShinySideUp]

I am not really a fan of people who start using the word ‘woke’ and then think they are big and clever.

Oh no, what will I do, my life is over.

 

[ACX]

This has been enlightening. My recollection of rallying is people standing behind trees or walls, or even lining the course behind flimsy ropes and dodging out of the way of flying stones. To hear that there is now a 'spectator area', threats of cancellation and other 'woke' stuff makes me think that if I ever thought I might like to go to a rally for photography purposes, I would probably think again. It all sounds as if it is a little sterile these days. I always imagined walking through muddy forests to get to a fun place to see the cars but I can see I am likely to be 'removed' from the premises if I try now. What was wrong with just putting up a sign that says 'Motor racing is dangerous, spectators attend at their own risk'; it seemed to work in the past?

It's all health and safety now. To be honest this is probably me being too safe talking all about the spectator zones but yeah the organisers go heavy on the "Do not tresspass, it will get the stages cancelled" but its been this way since it started. I had the same thoughts as you then first time it came in 2019. I felt so far removed from the action it was so disappointing. Better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission is likely the way to get close up to the action. They deliberately obfuscate the route so people don't line it, but you can work it out pretty easily by 1. Looking at last year's or 2, Looking at the road closures.


There is some truth to it I guess, but the fact it's come back consistently with people trespassing suggests that its just a way to appease landowners worried about it and also to get some revenue in for the Rally. The marshals don't have the authority to remove you from private land, that's up to the land owner.. but if the roads are closed I'm not sure what options the landowner had because you'll have nowhere to go to!

They still put up those signs, but liability is still a thing. Rollercoasters have risks, people go on them but when things go wrong.. where there's a blame there's a claim right?

 

[A_S]

As mentioned in my post above - the spectator areas aren't anything to do with tresspassing they are to do with stopping people standing in risky and dangerous areas and risk mitigation given whats happened in the past.

Unfortunatly its not the 1970s and the organisors have a duty of care to marshalls, competitors and spectators. They also have to prove the event is safe to the autorities and its part of all of that. If they didn't the event(s) wouldn't be able to run at all. Its a fact of life unfortunatly.