D7100 vs D700 and a basic full frame question

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Jamie
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Hi everyone

I had a D7000 and now I am looking at either getting a secondhand 7100 or a secondhand 700. I think the 700 might be a bit more expensive but it is cheapest full frame Nikon camera, as far as I can see. The question is, do I need a full frame camera? Full frame does better in low light, right? Does anyone here know how much better? What kind of numbers are we talking about? Also dynamic range figures, doesn't it? I am not sure if a more recent apsc might outperform an older full frame in many respects.

Anyway, I shoot mostly portraits and some street photography.

Thanks for your thoughts
 
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I suppose it all depends on what you shoot

I have had a D700 in the past as i believed at the time that is was the sensible upgrade path from my then D300, i did notice a substantial improvement in high ISO performance but didn't notice a massive (if any) difference in IQ, but i then started to get more into wildlife photography and soon found the lack of reach on the D700 rather limiting, so after about 6 months i chopped it in for a D7100, which IMO has as good (if not slightly better) low ISO performance, plus it gives me the reach i need for wildlife

I can't quote you any figures, but i had not noticed any discernible difference in my photos quality wise moving from an oldish FF to an (at the time) brand new Crop, but i now have twice the resolution of the D700 and a much better ability to crop
 
Check out snapsort.com as you can punch in the camera models for comparison, and it compares everything you've asked above.

It won't answer if you actually need a full frame, though, only you can really answer that :)
 
What lenses do you have and have you the budget if you need to add FX lenses.
 
D700 is old, but still a great FF camera, usable upto 6400 ISO.. I never really got on with the D7k ranges..
 
I went from a D7000 to a D7100
and
a D300 to a D700

I still have the 7100, d300 and 700 ....... I gave the D7000 away

I would sell the 300 and the 7100, but not the 700

D700 all every time for general photography, or photography generally
 
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What lenses do you have and have you the budget if you need to add FX lenses.
As above might help if you confirm what lenses you already have and if you have a budget in mind.
 
D7100 all the way. D 700 12 mp 8yr old banger. LOL.

If this is serious....

jlaw-whtvr.gif
 
I went from the d7000 which I loved to the 7100 which I hated ! The d7200 is brilliant but I went to the d600 which is brilliant! Don't get the 700!
 
The question is, do I need a full frame camera?
Are your clients unhappy with your image quality? Will going to full frame allow you to sell more images or accept more work/types of work? If the answer to those is "no," then you don't "need" FF. Most people don't need, or even really benefit from FF.

Do you tend to crop your images heavily? If yes, then you might not want FF.

Do you want ~ 1 stop better ISO performance (you might, who wouldn't) and ~ 1 stop less DOF (probably not/shouldn't really matter)? Then you might want FF.

Do you want somewhat better image sharpness in the center at the cost of image sharpness at the borders? If yes, then maybe FF.

Do you want to carry a bigger/heavier camera along with bigger/heavier/more expensive lenses? If no, then you might not want FF. (many/most FF lenses cross over)

I use FF at great expense (over 30k USD invested)... and 90% of the time there is no real benefit to it. I would probably choose the D700... but 90+% of the time it wouldn't matter.
 
Are your clients unhappy with your image quality? Will going to full frame allow you to sell more images or accept more work/types of work? If the answer to those is "no," then you don't "need" FF. Most people don't need, or even really benefit from FF.

Do you tend to crop your images heavily? If yes, then you might not want FF.

Do you want ~ 1 stop better ISO performance (you might, who wouldn't) and ~ 1 stop less DOF (probably not/shouldn't really matter)? Then you might want FF.

Do you want somewhat better image sharpness in the center at the cost of image sharpness at the borders? If yes, then maybe FF.

Do you want to carry a bigger/heavier camera along with bigger/heavier/more expensive lenses? If no, then you might not want FF. (many/most FF lenses cross over)

I use FF at great expense (over 30k USD invested)... and 90% of the time there is no real benefit to it. I would probably choose the D700... but 90+% of the time it wouldn't matter.


This is clear. One stop better ISO is nice but not all needed really. You can always have higher ISO. Everything has limits. It's how you work with them. I don't need shallower DOF. I find 85 1.4 a tad too much on crop already. I don't think too much about sharpness. Not really the type to zoom in to 100 per cent and check corners so neither wins that point.

I have an 85 1.4 and 50 1.8 and both are FF. I had a Sigma DX zoom lens which I loved but had to sell it. That is something I might buy back. Cheaper than fast FF zooms, I assume. (zoom assume - I made a funny :) )

There is no way any of my clients so far would know a picture was shot on FF or APSC. I am not sure who would know this from IQ alone without close inspection. I am answering my question, I think... I suppose I want a stronger reason to go FF.
 
There is no way any of my clients so far would know a picture was shot on FF or APSC. I am not sure who would know this from IQ alone without close inspection.
I could probably tell if comparing two images of the same scene taken at the same time (same light)... and I might be able to tell if conditions are less than ideal, but only with large display/close inspection.

Every factor plays into the others in some way.
Lets take your 85/1.4 for example. And lets say you want the DOF of f/2.8 on your APS camera for a headshot from ~10ft. And lets say the lighting determines that is an exposure of 1/125 at ISO200. But the lens doesn't reaches maximum sharpness until around f/5.6, so the maximum sharpness is not achieved.
This time I put the lens on a FF sensor... because the FOV is wider I have to get closer for the same framing of the subject, and because of the lower DOF I can stop down to ~ f/5.6 and have a very similar resulting DOF (actually less). So I get my subject separation (BG blur) at a sharper aperture, and there's a little less BG included in the image (because I've moved closer to it). But since I am using the entire lens's FOV and not just the "better" center, the edges may still be worse off. The lens does vignette quite a bit at large apertures, but it's minimal by f/5.6 on FF, and it's at about the same level at f/2.8 on APS. But since I've stopped down two stops for sharpness gain (central), DOF, and Vignette control, the exposure has to be either at 1/30th or ISO800 (or some compromise of both). The ISO advantage is gone and maybe even compromised beyond the APS.
That is how I can tell the images apart...

There are several "assumptions" made with this scenario/comparison that don't really hold up in real life. It assumes I must have the DOF of ~ f/2.8 on APS...that's not likely; and when there is very little (or a whole lot of) DOF changes in aperture/FL/distance don't make a huge difference (more/less of "little" is still "little"). It assumes I must keep the framing of the subject the same (not likely). It assumes I can eliminate parts of the BG included (quite possibly, but maybe not). It assumes constant/equal lighting levels outside of my control (why?). And it assumes I only have this one lens to use, which isn't the case (the comparison/results change if we look at 50mm/APS vs 85mm/FF).

The one thing that does hold true is that larger sensors always make better/larger prints/display because their physical size doesn't need "stretched" as much (that's assuming equal IQ in the recorded image). That is also discernible with close evaluation... but they're rather minor differences for smaller (typical) sizes.

The other factors (ISO performance, DR, Color, etc) are really more about the technology/generation/processing and pixel size/number. Newer is better. Larger pixels are better. And having more pixels is better. But "more" usually means "smaller"...
I wish I could say FF was some kind of magic bullet, but it's not.

APS lenses are cheaper... it's easier to design/make lenses to the same standard for a smaller sensor, and APS only uses the smaller/sharper center of less expensive FF lenses. *Because* I use FF I buy/use lenses that are sharper at wider apertures and have better overall IQ...i.e. they cost a lot more.
 
Are your clients unhappy with your image quality? Will going to full frame allow you to sell more images or accept more work/types of work? If the answer to those is "no," then you don't "need" FF. Most people don't need, or even really benefit from FF.

Do you tend to crop your images heavily? If yes, then you might not want FF.

Do you want ~ 1 stop better ISO performance (you might, who wouldn't) and ~ 1 stop less DOF (probably not/shouldn't really matter)? Then you might want FF.

Do you want somewhat better image sharpness in the center at the cost of image sharpness at the borders? If yes, then maybe FF.

Do you want to carry a bigger/heavier camera along with bigger/heavier/more expensive lenses? If no, then you might not want FF. (many/most FF lenses cross over)

I use FF at great expense (over 30k USD invested)... and 90% of the time there is no real benefit to it. I would probably choose the D700... but 90+% of the time it wouldn't matter.
I'm confused, why do you say that if you crop heavily then FF is not for you? I've had FF and APS and believe FF crop better than APS.
 
OP FF gives you cleaner images and (without getting into the debate of focal length, perspective etc) gives you shallower DOF. Crop sensors give more reach and so better for wildlife.

The D700 is a cracking camera and IMHO a better camera than the D7100. The d700 is a pro camera vs the enthusiast level D7100. The thing that lets the D700 down IMO is the 12mp resolution meaning you can't crop heavily
 
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I'm confused, why do you say that if you crop heavily then FF is not for you? I've had FF and APS and believe FF crop better than APS.
That really depends on the pixel sizes...
If you DX crop a D800 FF image you are left with ~16MP. It is essentially the same *in every aspect* as the same image taken w/ a D7000 16MP DX camera. All of the advantages the D800 had (physical size, FOV, DOF, more pixels for color/DR/ISO, etc) have been cropped away and discarded.
 
OP FF gives you cleaner images
***For the same exposure settings.... but the actual images will be different (possibly quite significantly).
There is no such thing as "equivalence"... you can't get to exactly the same point with different cameras/sensors. They're just different, not better/worse...
 
That really depends on the pixel sizes...
If you DX crop a D800 FF image you are left with ~16MP. It is essentially the same *in every aspect* as the same image taken w/ a D7000 16MP DX camera. All of the advantages the D800 had (physical size, FOV, DOF, more pixels for color/DR/ISO, etc) have been cropped away and discarded.
In theory yes, but how about cropping a 24mp crop and a 24mp FF? :p

But I'm still baffled by the 'if you crop heavily then maybe a FF isn't right for you' comment? I assume you're interpreting that those who crop heavily are after more reach and therefore better suited to crop bodies?
 
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***For the same exposure settings.... but the actual images will be different (possibly quite significantly).
There is no such thing as "equivalence"... you can't get to exactly the same point with different cameras/sensors. They're just different, not better/worse...
Sorry, I should have said that FF are cleaner for a given ISO, assuming same overall exposure in the same conditions. You can get the image to look roughly the same and keeping ISO the same with a bit of fiddling ;).
 
Started with a D3000 many years ago and have upgraded many times along the way up to D3s, D800 and D750 level. The D700 is one of the best cameras out of the lot. It's almost a right of passage body for a Nikon user at some point. I'd still be over the moon with one today.
 
I went from a D5100, to a D7000, then D7000 to a D7100, finally this Summer, i went from the D7100 to a D700...Was going from a D7100 to the D700, a step backwards? a step sideways? or a step forward? Im not 100% sure just yet, I know Ive dropped from 24MP down to 12MP, which means i cant get away with large crops anymore...but on the other hand, having less MP's to play with, has made me think about, an compose my images for the better.

Im just a hobbyist, i take wildlife/close up/macro pics for fun...I dont need to justify my decision in going FF...i thought it was just a natural path to take?!

Saying that, id like to get back into "birding" this winter(now all the Butterflies/Dragonflies have all but perished)...so Im looking to get a DX body(for the extra reach) that will compliment my D700...maybe a D300/D300s or i might just have to try a Nikon v1...that 2.7 crop factor that the Nikon 1 series offers, is very tempting ;)

PS.The money that i sold my D7100 with, went straight into a mint D700(with less than 4000 clicks)...and i didnt need to add much more money in order to buy, what i think, is the better camera ;)
 
In theory yes, but how about cropping a 24mp crop and a 24mp FF?
Not "in theory"... I owned both and used them side by side for a while.
In that cropping example, assuming equal cropping the FF retains it's advantage... it has a larger physical area/size remaining with larger pixels (equal number).
But I'm still baffled by the 'if you crop heavily then maybe a FF isn't right for you' comment? I assume you're interpreting that those who crop heavily are after more reach and therefore better suited to crop bodies?
Yes, why else would you choose to crop heavily? If you can get closer, or use a longer lens then that would be better.
(But both of those options can also result in a significant reduction in DOF, which may have to be offset with smaller aperture/higher ISO.)
 
Not "in theory"... I owned both and used them side by side for a while.
In that cropping example, assuming equal cropping the FF retains it's advantage... it has a larger physical area/size remaining with larger pixels (equal number).
Fair do's. I just googled the pixel sizes and see that the D800 are only marginally bigger than the D7000
Yes, why else would you choose to crop heavily? If you can get closer, or use a longer lens then that would be better.
(But both of those options can also result in a significant reduction in DOF, which may have to be offset with smaller aperture/higher ISO.)

Well yes, I was only trying to clarify why you said that about cropping and FF ;) I sometimes crop heavily but it has nothing to do with reach.
 
I have a Nikon1 V2... I use it mostly for macro work, and a general carry around kit.

Here's a comparison I did between the 16MPD4, 36MP D800, and the 14MP V2... http://photographic-academy.com/camera-basics/84-camera-basics/141-mp-s-detail-contrast

I normally use a couple of Panasonic Bridge cameras, with Raynox 150/250's for my macro work, as well as using my Dslr for close up too.
Ive only just read up on the V1/V2's, and adding the FT1 into the mix, could make for a great set up for not only macro, but long distant bird images.

Thanks for the link, i will go check that out.
 
I won't part with either of my FF bodies D3 and a D700 they give me everything I need from a full frame camera,
I have recently been shooting with a D810 which is mighty impressive as are the file sizes.
I find the D3 like many others very forgiving with glass be it my fast primes or cheaper end zooms.
And of course they can be used on my DX bodies
I only own 4 DX lenses now having moved many of them on.
But just occasionally I use the Sigma 4.5mm circular fisheye on my FF bodies and also the Tokina 10-17mm fisheye zoom.
I guess your the only person that can decide if you need full frame or not ?
But there has been plenty of good information for you in this thread.:)
I'm very tempted by a D7200 though !
 
I won't part with either of my FF bodies D3 and a D700 they give me everything I need from a full frame camera,
I have recently been shooting with a D810 which is mighty impressive as are the file sizes.
I find the D3 like many others very forgiving with glass be it my fast primes or cheaper end zooms.
And of course they can be used on my DX bodies
I only own 4 DX lenses now having moved many of them on.
But just occasionally I use the Sigma 4.5mm circular fisheye on my FF bodies and also the Tokina 10-17mm fisheye zoom.
I guess your the only person that can decide if you need full frame or not ?
But there has been plenty of good information for you in this thread.:)
I'm very tempted by a D7200 though !
Apart from a few MP what would the D7200 give you over the D810 in DX mode?
 
Apart from a few MP what would the D7200 give you over the D810 in DX mode?

A better bank balance ;) and the option of traveling lighter I guess :)the D810 is on loan to me with a 200mm f2.0 VR :) I could possibly justify buying a D7100 / D7200 24mp and the extra reach for long distance shooting.
And I can't say how they both perform ISO wise TBH but from past experience you appear to loose the noise when printed out on paper ?
Also read recently that with D810 at least that NX-D does a better Job of high ISO noise control over Adobe software ?
 
Apart from a few MP what would the D7200 give you over the D810 in DX mode?
A lot more MP's... but that's good and bad.
Good:
You have more pixels which means (possibly) greater resolution/detail. You have more sampling points which means (possibly) better/more color information and offsets the bayer filter.

Bad:
The pixels are smaller... they go into diffraction earlier and are more demanding of lens IQ. They generate less contrast which we see as "sharpness." Motion has less distance to travel before crossing pixels... more motion blur issues. The pixels collect less light per... noisier ISO.

If the D7200 can be used optimally at a wider/sharp aperture, it will beat the D810 DX crop... but that is *very* hard to do. Heck, it's very hard to get the most out of a D8xx...
 
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That really depends on the pixel sizes...
If you DX crop a D800 FF image you are left with ~16MP. It is essentially the same *in every aspect* as the same image taken w/ a D7000 16MP DX camera. >>>>All of the advantages the D800 had (physical size, FOV, DOF, more pixels for color/DR/ISO, etc) have been cropped away and discarded<<<<.

No they haven't.
 
A better bank balance ;) and the option of traveling lighter I guess :)the D810 is on loan to me with a 200mm f2.0 VR :) I could possibly justify buying a D7100 / D7200 24mp and the extra reach for long distance shooting.
And I can't say how they both perform ISO wise TBH but from past experience you appear to loose the noise when printed out on paper ?
Also read recently that with D810 at least that NX-D does a better Job of high ISO noise control over Adobe software ?
Ahh, didn't realise the D810 was a loaner ;) If reach was a top priority Id struggle to look past the D7200.

Interesting about NX-D, I keep meaning to give it another go as supposedly it renders the RAW colours much closer to the JPEG than Adobe. That's one thing that bugs me in Lightroom, on the rare occasion I shoot RAW and JPEG rather than just RAW I prefer the colours of the JPEG 99% of the time.
 
Ahh, didn't realise the D810 was a loaner ;) If reach was a top priority Id struggle to look past the D7200.

Interesting about NX-D, I keep meaning to give it another go as supposedly it renders the RAW colours much closer to the JPEG than Adobe. That's one thing that bugs me in Lightroom, on the rare occasion I shoot RAW and JPEG rather than just RAW I prefer the colours of the JPEG 99% of the time.
Nikon processors can apply all of the camera jpegs setting to the raw file automatically. I think NX-D does by default
 
Probably means the ISO, DR and colour advantages haven't been taken away. AFAIK resolution and DR etc aren't directly related. If that was the case cameras like the A7s and Nikon DF would be shocking in this regard.
 
Nikon processors can apply all of the camera jpegs setting to the raw file automatically. I think NX-D does by default
Yeah that's why I said I wanted to try it, Adobe doesn't.
 
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