Dev workflow and a separate wash stage...

[ChrisR]

As you may know, I use an Agfa Rondinax daylight tank for my 135 developing (for the simple reason that I can't load a spool due to functional issues with my right hand). I quite enjoy devving my own, but if the backlog builds up to much more than a couple of films, I find myself sending them off to the lab, which means delay, loss of control, and of course, added expense. Why is the breakpoint at a couple of films?

So my workflow looks something like this for one film:

a) Start some water getting to temperature (5 minutes)

b) Get the dev box from under the stairs (2 minutes)

c) Lay out the Rondinax, chems etc on the laundry sink draining board (5 minutes)

d) Mix the developer (and possibly other chems) (3-10 minutes)

e) Test the fixer, if not fresh, 2 minutes

f) Trim the film end, load into tank, 5 minutes

g) Dev (~7 minutes FP4), Stop and Fix (6 minutes, say) (All 3 of these processes require continuous attention to winding the Rondinax, or there will be uneven development.)

h) 4 washes, 5 minutes each, with the lid off (20 minutes)

i) Final rinse in de-ionised water and Photo-Flo, 5 minutes

j) Take tank upstairs, hang in the shower, 5 minutes

k) Rinse tank thoroughly, re-pack the Dev box, put back under the stairs (10 minutes)

l) Clean up the laundry area, put other water jugs etc away, 5 minutes.

So for one film that works out at around 80 minutes, give or take. For a second film, start again at (d) and omit (e), work through to (j), so an additional 50 minutes.

There is one other constraint: the films MUST be dried, cut and sleeved by 10 pm to allow free use of the shower, else Hell To Pay! This basically means finishing the last dev by 5 pm. Altogether this means I can't really do more than 2 films in one afternoon.

Now, to the real point of the post. It seems to me that the wash cycles are the real bottleneck. Is there a way of removing the film from the tank (well, obvs!) and washing it separately, in parallel with starting on the next film? It would need to be a continuous wash, I think; it would be too confusing to break off from the dev process to refill tanks. There's obviously no chance of loading another reel; I was thinking of putting the film into a jug and then under slowly running water. But I would be quite concerned about parts of the film getting inadequate wash due to lying adjacent in the jug.

If I could do this, I think I could do 3 films in about the time it currently takes to do 2. I suspect it would be quite a lot more stressful, however.

 

[sirch]

To get water to temp I heat some water in the kettle, no need to let it boil, just get it hot, put some cold water in a jug, add hot from kettle until at 20 degrees. It took me longer to type that than it takes n practice.

I only rinse for a maximum of 10 mins and it is not continuous. If I want to reuse the tank I rinse the film in a tupperware box with a few changes of water and rinse aid in the final rinse. I believe rinsing is mainly about ensuring the negs are stable and will be "archival" - i.e. not discolour over decades. Given that the vast majoirty of my photos are rubbish I am not overly concerned that future generations will loose out by not seeing my photos. Also, once scanned I am unlikely to rescan them in future.

I would say it takes me about 30 mins to process a film plus getting the kit out and putting it away.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

As you may know, I use an Agfa Rondinax daylight tank for my 135 developing (for the simple reason that I can't load a spool due to functional issues with my right hand). I quite enjoy devving my own, but if the backlog builds up to much more than a couple of films, I find myself sending them off to the lab, which means delay, loss of control, and of course, added expense. Why is the breakpoint at a couple of films?

So my workflow looks something like this for one film:

a) Start some water getting to temperature (5 minutes)

b) Get the dev box from under the stairs (2 minutes)

c) Lay out the Rondinax, chems etc on the laundry sink draining board (5 minutes)

d) Mix the developer (and possibly other chems) (3-10 minutes)

e) Test the fixer, if not fresh, 2 minutes

f) Trim the film end, load into tank, 5 minutes

g) Dev (~7 minutes FP4), Stop and Fix (6 minutes, say) (All 3 of these processes require continuous attention to winding the Rondinax, or there will be uneven development.)

h) 4 washes, 5 minutes each, with the lid off (20 minutes)

i) Final rinse in de-ionised water and Photo-Flo, 5 minutes

j) Take tank upstairs, hang in the shower, 5 minutes

k) Rinse tank thoroughly, re-pack the Dev box, put back under the stairs (10 minutes)

l) Clean up the laundry area, put other water jugs etc away, 5 minutes.

So for one film that works out at around 80 minutes, give or take. For a second film, start again at (d) and omit (e), work through to (j), so an additional 50 minutes.

There is one other constraint: the films MUST be dried, cut and sleeved by 10 pm to allow free use of the shower, else Hell To Pay! This basically means finishing the last dev by 5 pm. Altogether this means I can't really do more than 2 films in one afternoon.

Now, to the real point of the post. It seems to me that the wash cycles are the real bottleneck. Is there a way of removing the film from the tank (well, obvs!) and washing it separately, in parallel with starting on the next film? It would need to be a continuous wash, I think; it would be too confusing to break off from the dev process to refill tanks. There's obviously no chance of loading another reel; I was thinking of putting the film into a jug and then under slowly running water. But I would be quite concerned about parts of the film getting inadequate wash due to lying adjacent in the jug.

If I could do this, I think I could do 3 films in about the time it currently takes to do 2. I suspect it would be quite a lot more stressful, however.

All your difficulties come from not being able to load a spiral. Were you able to you could use a double or triple tank..

However I have washed film in a sink. The main problem with this is that the emulsion is very soft at this stage... And even contact with it self is not good news. You could hang it in a length of plastic plumbing pipe with a feed in from the bottom, it could over flow at the top in a bath or shower. But it would take a bit of DIY to make it up. Perhaps you could get someone to help make it.

You would need some sort of filter to use continuous tap water. Small photographic in line ones used to be readily available but replacement filters for them would no longer be available, and modern ceramic filter systems are quite expensive.

 

[StephenM]

I use @sirch method - it is fast.

My washing uses the Ilford method, and doesn't take anywhere near your 25 min (25 because the final rinse in wetting agent added water is only to replace the possible residues in tap water and ensure that the surface tension is lowered to promote even drying). I use 1 minute for this step.

If you can remove the film and whatever it's spooled on to to dip and dunk a few times in the water, you should get a big time saving.

 

[Kevin Allan]

I'm not familiar with the Rondinax so I'm not clear if it's possible to use the Ilford wash method with the Rondinax,

I use the Ilford method (with Jobo tanks) and four wash cycles (the last one with photoflo added) takes aound 6 minutes at most. The massive dev chart timer allows 10 minutes for that ste but I never take all that time. Of course you might examine my negs and conclude they should be washed for longer ....

The total time period from prep to clearing away is usually around 40 minutes.

 

[StephenM]

The longest step is the one that seems to have been overlooked - the drying.

I still have a bottle (strictly a plastic container) of Drysonal, which is used as the very last rinse. Being volatile, it evaporates quickly and leaves the film dry. A "don't try this at home" method that I saw suggested years ago, when elf and safety hadn't been heard of, was meths and a quick match to burn off the alcohol (and apparently leaving the film intact). Anyway, I searched for Drysonal and found this link which might give food for thought

Drying fluid like Rapidry or Drysonal

Hello, Has someone a recipe for making a drying fluid like Maco Rapidry or Tetenal Drysonal as they are not selled anymore. I know there is some distilled water, alcohol and wet agent in the composition. What would be the proportions of them and what alcohol exactly is needed ?

www.photrio.com

 

[ChrisR]

Thanks folks for the comments.

... I have washed film in a sink. The main problem with this is that the emulsion is very soft at this stage... And even contact with it self is not good news.

This is what I was worried about.

Not one for DIY, Terry!

If you can remove the film and whatever it's spooled on to to dip and dunk a few times in the water, you should get a big time saving.

The Rondinax spool is removable, though the system for doing so is a bit unstable, so I usually don't. And I only have the one spool. However...

I'm not familiar with the Rondinax so I'm not clear if it's possible to use the Ilford wash method with the Rondinax,

I think I've been misreading the Ilford wash method. On re-reading, I think I could adapt to use a version of the method. I've been spinning one way 5 times, then back 5 times on the first wash, then doubling that second wash, etc, but sill leaving it 5 minutes each wash overall. I guess I'll just try dumping the water and refilling after the spins, which should really cut the time down.

To get water to temp I heat some water in the kettle, no need to let it boil, just get it hot, put some cold water in a jug, add hot from kettle until at 20 degrees. It took me longer to type that than it takes n practice.

That's roughly what I do (although this summer it's been the ice jug rather than the kettle. But it seems to take me much longer than you're suggesting. Just generally a faff moving bits of water from one jug to another, trying to get that magic 20C!

 

[ChrisR]

The longest step is the one that seems to have been overlooked - the drying.

I still have a bottle (strictly a plastic container) of Drysonal, which is used as the very last rinse. Being volatile, it evaporates quickly and leaves the film dry. A "don't try this at home" method that I saw suggested years ago, when elf and safety hadn't been heard of, was meths and a quick match to burn off the alcohol (and apparently leaving the film intact). Anyway, I searched for Drysonal and found this link which might give food for thought

Drying fluid like Rapidry or Drysonal

Hello, Has someone a recipe for making a drying fluid like Maco Rapidry or Tetenal Drysonal as they are not selled anymore. I know there is some distilled water, alcohol and wet agent in the composition. What would be the proportions of them and what alcohol exactly is needed ?

www.photrio.com

At least with drying they can be left well alone!

Somewhere I've seen a YT video about a drying rig involving a 2 metre drain pipe with a dust filter at the top and a fan from a PC at the bottom. Getting a 135 film in there without it sticking to the side seems to me like it may be an issue, as I don't have a 4 metre high room to allow the film to be dropped in vertically. See also DIY comments above!

 

[Kevin Allan]

Thanks folks for the comments.


That's roughly what I do (although this summer it's been the ice jug rather than the kettle. But it seems to take me much longer than you're suggesting. Just generally a faff moving bits of water from one jug to another, trying to get that magic 20C!

I don't view 20C as "magic" - if the temp is somewhere between, say 18 and 23, I'll happily adjust the time using the function in the Massive Dev Chart app and get started.

 

[sirch]

There must be a formula that gives the amount of hot water of a certain temperature needed to be added to cold water to get 20 degrees but I've bothered to work it out, e.g. if you had 500ml at 12 degrees and you have hot water at say 70 degrees then how much hot is needed to bring it up to 20 degrees?

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader

 

[StephenM]

There must be a formula that gives the amount of hot water of a certain temperature needed to be added to cold water to get 20 degrees but I've bothered to work it out, e.g. if you had 500ml at 12 degrees and you have hot water at say 70 degrees then how much hot is needed to bring it up to 20 degrees?

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader

There is - from memory it's probably O level physics. However... Pouring the hot water into a cooler measuring cylinder would reduce the temperature right at the start; and bringing the cylinder up to temp to avoid this would be more trouble than the trial and error method.

I use a measuring cylinder larger than the amount of developer needed, and mix the water (stirring with my thermometer, which I am aware is VERY bad practice) and then remove the excess and add in the (small) amount of developer concentrate. As I dilute 1:50 this doesn't affect the temperature much.

Other chemicals are standing in a water bath ready for when they are needed.

Where I have a big advantage is that I don't need to agitate continuously, and have three minutes between inversions after the first minute of so. My developing time is about 16 minutes. One minute in the stop, and then in with the fixer - pouring being more rapid because I have the lid off the tank by this time.

 

[ChrisR]

The biggest improvement in the "getting to the right temperature" process for me was using a digital meat thermometer so I can measure the new temperature within a few seconds rather than the minte or so each time with the old analogue one. I'm worried this is totally against the spirit of this forum!!!!

 

[sirch]

I had a digital kitchen thermometer which was nice and accurate but it packed so I bought an identical one and when I checked it it was quite a long way off so I now just use a Paterson spirit one and it responds very quickly.

 

[Peter B]

I don't view 20C as "magic" - if the temp is somewhere between, say 18 and 23, I'll happily adjust the time using the function in the Massive Dev Chart app and get started.

@ChrisR I know it's different up here in the frozen North, but if it's late afternoon or evening and it's less than 18C it's time the central heating was on. That'll get your chems warmed up.

 

[Kevin Allan]

The biggest improvement in the "getting to the right temperature" process for me was using a digital meat thermometer so I can measure the new temperature within a few seconds rather than the minte or so each time with the old analogue one. I'm worried this is totally against the spirit of this forum!!!!

You're right, we are strictly vegetarian here !

 

[StephenM]

The biggest improvement in the "getting to the right temperature" process for me was using a digital meat thermometer so I can measure the new temperature within a few seconds rather than the minte or so each time with the old analogue one. I'm worried this is totally against the spirit of this forum!!!!

That's something I hadn't considered! I used a small spirit thermometer (sounds like a device for measuring the temperature of a tiny ghost ) for a while until I could afford a Paterson certified mercury thermometer, which I've been using for over 50 years. Still the same one, but, being cautious with a belt and braces approach, I did later buy two others in case of breakage. They register much more quickly than the spirit ones, but I've never used a meat thermometer so can't comment on the speed (I cooks joints "by eye", judging the time by size and shape).

 

[Nod]

I had a digital kitchen thermometer which was nice and accurate but it packed so I bought an identical one and when I checked it it was quite a long way off so I now just use a Paterson spirit one and it responds very quickly.

That got me checking my kitchen thermometer! 99 in boiling water and 1 in a jug of melting ice so close enough for my needs!

 

[ChrisR]

That sounds worth doing!

 

[Cluster]

My recent problems with dust getting on my negs has prompted me to consider leaving the dev'ed and washed film in water in the dev tank overnight.
In our house, the shower is used mainly in the morning, so I hope that the lower dust levels created by several uses of the shower will lead to less dust when the negs are hung in the morning..... there may also be more time to leave it to dry without me checking it every 20 mins.

 

[ChrisR]

I think I've been misreading the Ilford wash method. On re-reading, I think I could adapt to use a version of the method. I've been spinning one way 5 times, then back 5 times on the first wash, then doubling that second wash, etc, but sill leaving it 5 minutes each wash overall. I guess I'll just try dumping the water and refilling after the spins, which should really cut the time down.

So I've done a couple of dev sessions with this revised wash approach:

- Fill the tank with water, spin reel anti-clockwise 5 times, then clockwise 5 times, then dump the water
- Repeat, this time 10 times each way
- Repeat, 20 times each way
- Repeat, 20 times each way (taking my time a bit)
- Repeat with de-ionised water and Photo-Flo, 10 times each way. Dump, Hang up to dry.

So far it seems to work and really speeds things up. However, how (and when) would I know whether this method is not working well? Thanks....

 

[RaglanSurf]

I’ve been using the Ilford wash method (although not in a Rondinax) and not noticed any difference in my negatives, I do add an extra change of water and 40 inversions now, so I have 10, 20, 30 & 40 inversions with a change of water between each set. It seems to work for me and my negs look fine.

To speed things up have you considered getting a second Rondinax?

 

[ChrisR]

Stereo!

 

[RaglanSurf]

Stereo!

Exactly

 

[joxby]

Yes, that's what I was thinking, more Rodinax tanks but I dunno if agitation is constant, if it is, it might prove tricky to attend to more than 2 tanks.
Also, a drying cabinet would eliminate the bathroom use time constraints, it wouldn't need to be in a bathroom for a start.
I'm afraid both these suggestions involve throwing money at the problem..
Years ago I used a clear vinyl drying bag, it was like a camping wardrobe with a blower just hung up anywhere, probably wouldn't even need a blower tbh if drying times are not important, it would still need filtered vents though.

 

[StephenM]

My concern with the revised wash approach is based on ignorance and pessimism so take that into account.

The point of washing is to remove unwanted sulphur compounds and fixer from the film. Left there, the sulphur will tend to give brown stains at some point or other. On the other hand, I have a recollection (which I can attempt to chase up if no one else does) that incompletely washed PRINTS have more problems than completely unwashed ones. Note that this is prints; no idea if the same is true of films.

Second point. Washing differs from rinsing insofar as rinsing will remove any chemicals on the surface of the film, but washing requires contact with the water for long enough for the chemicals in the emulsion to diffuse into the water. Once equilibrium has been established, the water is changed. I don't know how effective moving partially submerged film in a Rondinax is in allowing chemicals to diffuse from emulsion to water.

As to how long before adverse effects show up if they are going to, it's not an answerable question. There's a thread somewhere where the number of times a Nikon shutter on a particular camera can be used before it breaks down; and the wide spread of figures indicates how uncertain some things can be. With the film, it's going to depend on a lot of variables. As far as I recall, we never got to the bottom of Woodsy's negative stains.

I suspect that there's a good reason not to use a selenium toner on incompletely washed film but I don't know it. Using selenium toner on film is supposed to improve longevity, just as with papers. Another point for someone to check up on and comment.

 

[Peter B]

I’ve been using the Ilford wash method (although not in a Rondinax) and not noticed any difference in my negatives, I do add an extra change of water and 40 inversions now, so I have 10, 20, 30 & 40 inversions with a change of water between each set. It seems to work for me and my negs look fine.

I do 7, 14, 21 then 30 inversions and that seems to work for me. Another variant I have is the speeed of inversion changing from fairly agressive at 7 to quickly remove the fixer, followed by increasing slow/gentle over the next sets to give a longer residence time in the water. I also do 4 changes of water for LF in the Paterson Orbital, and again I increase the time with each change of water as I've got the motor so it's no hassle.

 

[swanseamale47]

When I worked for a newspaper, rush jobs were done in x-ray developer, 90 seconds dev time if I remember right, fixer was about the same (no stop or rinse between) then about a minutes wash in running cold water and if desperate print wet, otherwise a drying cabinet.
Lots of non rush films only had a five minute wash in running water, those negs from the 1980's-1990's still look fine to me.

 

[StephenM]

I've got a 1960s copy of Practical Photography which has an article on getting a print within about 5 minutes of exposing.

 

[ChrisR]

I take the lid off the Rondinax, and completely fill the tank, so the whole film is submerged. On the second go, I did slow down on the second and 3rd, ahem, rinses; did some packing of dev stuff away after loading the water (obviously not appropriate if I'm doing another dev session immediately), then allowed a few seconds gap between each (slower) spin. The first was fast back and then forwards, basically to remove as much liquid, surface fixer as possible. So it sounds like I'm pretty close to @Peter B 's methods.

So it looks (from @StephenM ) like the impact of incomplete washing is "brown stains at some point or other". I usually scan within 48 hours, so I should avoid the worst impacts of that. Note to self, go back and check these negs, next year!

In response to @joxby 's comment, I've seen something recently on the twitters where someone was using a clear plastic dress hanger bag (slightly modified to hang negs in for drying. Could be worth exploring for someone in a dusty environment, but recently I've been finding more dust on my lab-devved negs than home-devved ones (home-scanned in both cases, so not conclusive).

The "2xRondinax" idea unfortunately won't work; even if I could keep straight in my head what's going on, I just don't have the flexibility in my right hand to go twiddling knobs! I can safely start and stop a timer with it, though! I think knocking about 20 minutes off the length of a dev session should allow me to do 3 sessions in an afternoon, rather than just 2. Might have to buy another couple of bulldog clips, heck, maybe I should go all-in and get some proper film clips!

 

[StephenM]

I hadn't realised that you could cover the whole film, so the partial submerging objection doesn't hold water (pun intended). The only "variable" is whether the rotation is equivalent to an inversion. In theory, the drag when rotating could mean that there is less water change around the film than would be the case with an inversion, but in the overall scheme of things I doubt it makes any difference at all.

I believe that hypo testing kits (or, for the brave or foolish, formulae for the same) are available, but equally I wouldn't expect that you have a lot to worry about. If you really want to speed up the wash time, use sea water with a final rinse in distilled water (seriously). I quoted various figures in the "LF zero to hero" thread from Grant Haist on washing. However, the Ilford method is so fast that it seems too much work to cut it.

A final rinse in a volatile compound to display the surface water with something that will quickly evaporate is the fastest way (outside of a drying cabinet) that I can think of.

 

[PeterSpencer]

I do 7, 14, 21 then 30 inversions and that seems to work for me. Another variant I have is the speeed of inversion changing from fairly agressive at 7 to quickly remove the fixer, followed by increasing slow/gentle over the next sets to give a longer residence time in the water. I also do 4 changes of water for LF in the Paterson Orbital, and again I increase the time with each change of water as I've got the motor so it's no hassle.

I would do 7, 13, 23 and 31 inversions as I'm well into prime numbers. It sounds like a sound rinse regime and thanks for the hint vis-a-vis the Patterson orbital.

 

[RaglanSurf]

I would do 7, 13, 23 and 31 inversions as I'm well into prime numbers. It sounds like a sound rinse regime and thanks for the hint vis-a-vis the Patterson orbital.

This just one of the many reasons I love this part of the forum.