Did the Archbishop of Canterbury just apologise for bombing the Nazis?

andy700 said:
I agree with most of your posts Gramps, but if we are to apologise for the bombing of Dresden, then where does it all start and end?
Firstly, I demand that the Germans apologise for the "practice attacks" on Guernica in Spain, during the Spanish Civil War, when they were trying to see how good their JU87 Stukas and Heinkel 111's would be against Europe.
I would also like to see the US apologise for the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which ultimately left tens of thousands more dead than the raids on Dresden, Cologne and the like.
Click to expand...

'Tit-for-tat' has never been a successful way of resolving issues but as I said, I don't think the Archbishop was apologising for Dresden, he was merely voicing regret at it happening. Personally I feel that it never does harm to apologise for bad things done and refusing to apologise really just exacerbates the original badness.
Yes it's all in the past but does an apology harm or can it help to heal by giving recognition to the fact that many innocents were maimed and killed as a result of the actions?
 
Gramps

You are presupposing there's something to heal. In the main there isn't. People in Germany mostly ignore the second world war and the years shortly before it. I also recall the German School mine was twinned with, didn't teach it as part of history.

The healing happened a very long time ago. There's no real sense of entitlement in the German people. These constant 'apologises' are I suspect more about making some in the UK feel better, rather than having any meaning or necessity.

I see no need to applogise, because it's not being sought or expected by the German People, and no necessity, because it was a valid tactic in the kind of war being waged. I do resent the Arch Bishop doing anything that could be seen as or giving an impression that he is appologising for something he has no place doing so. Expressing a regret things got to that stage, perhaps, but that should have been included the ryder that Germany brought it upon themselves.
 
gramps said:
'Tit-for-tat' has never been a successful way of resolving issues but as I said, I don't think the Archbishop was apologising for Dresden, he was merely voicing regret at it happening. Personally I feel that it never does harm to apologise for bad things done and refusing to apologise really just exacerbates the original badness.
Yes it's all in the past but does an apology harm or can it help to heal by giving recognition to the fact that many innocents were maimed and killed as a result of the actions?
Click to expand...

If the apology came from someone who had something to do with it (bomber Harris, Churchill etc) then maybe it has a purpose but one from someone who had noting to do with it is pointless. Maybe I could apologise for the Vietnam war?
 
cambsno said:
If the apology came from someone who had something to do with it (bomber Harris, Churchill etc) then maybe it has a purpose but one from someone who had noting to do with it is pointless. Maybe I could apologise for the Vietnam war?
Click to expand...

There was no apology Simon, just an expression of regret that it happened.
 
Bernie174 said:
But do you differentiate between a civilian, say working in a shop selling baby milk, and a civilian working in a factory making tanks? Do you, and can you make that distinction? Should you ignore anyone not wearing a uniform simply because they are not military?

The supply of weapons, and that includes both the means of manufacture and the manpower to do so, in a total war makes civilians legitimate targets. Either way a smoking hole where a factory was, or the absence of a workforce due to bombing has the same effect, it stops weapons being made. That saves your own forces lives. It's harsh but, thats warfare.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct - anything that degrades the enemy's ability to wage war or gives succour or nurture, or absorbs resources to deal with casualties and damage are legitimate targets. Thanks goodness we had fine courageous young (and some not so young) people who were prepared to take the fight to the enemy and pile it on hard. They never had the luxury of pontificating over some sanctimonious statement from an Archbishop.
 
Here is an interesting article about the 50th anniversary of D Day, a crossing of the channel attended by the "good and great", including the Archbishop of Canterbury at the time, and a low pass by a Lancaster releasing poppies from its bomb bay.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-06-06/news/mn-1073_1_world-war-ii

I wonder if the Archbishop of Canterbury is aware that there probably would not have been a D Day without the raids carried out by Bomber Command.
 
andy700 said:
I wonder if the Archbishop of Canterbury is aware that there probably would not have been a D Day without the raids carried out by Bomber Command.
Click to expand...

Dresden happened after D Day didn't it? It is the Dresden bombings his comments were about.
 
new2me said:
Dresden happened after D Day didn't it? It is the Dresden bombings his comments were about.
Click to expand...


Very true, but I suppose if the Germans had surrendered earlier then the Dresden raids would not have happened. The Germans were after all still sending plenty of V2's across, aimed at civilians.
 
Revealed today that Paul cummins, the artist behind the Tower of London ceramic poppies received several death threats and had to call in the police, because the money raised from selling them went to three armed forces charities. Very sad
 
I'll go further. I think Archbishop Welby's expressions of regret are completely wrong and unhelpful.

We now live in an age where any apology or regret is commonly taken as a confession of wrongdoing and an admission of culpability. That might not be the Archbishop's intention but that is how internet users will quote him in years to come. I have already seen internet posts which state that WWII only started when Great Britain and France declared war on what was presumably suggested to be an inoffensive Germany on September 3rd 1939. Technically that is correct, but it is far from the real truth of the time as my books of David Lowe cartoons from 1937, '38 and '39 attest!

Sadly, revisionism is all the rage and all too often, no opinion, philosophy or fact other than this year's latest fashionable one is deemed to be correct. A product of our defective education system, which teaches children what to think rather than how to think, is that cognitive dissonance kicks in early and people seem to be finding it more and more difficult to appreciate or even understand an alternative, not currently conventional point of view.

It means we have lots of fun when cognitive dissonance is appropriate and it turns out that, for example, saturated fats were alright all along but carbohydrates weren't. Or vice versa. Or, as those ill educated, racist, homophobic and Imperial Victorians knew all along, when it comes to diet, "a little of what you fancy does you good!"

Back on topic, I'm afraid I have lost a lot of respect for ghoti who is undoubtedly very intelligent but not necessarily very wise when she said -
ghoti said:
I've no respect for young men who knowingly attacked innocent civilians. German or British. And if they "gave their lives" in the act: good.
Click to expand...

It's not a personal attack @ghoti, but as well as the Spike Milligan joke I quoted above, essentially about shooting at every single German on sight; about kill or be killed, you might want to consider Dad's Army. I view that show with a certain poignancy because I was taught how in 1940, when Nazi Germany had overrun the rest of Western Europe and Soviet Russia was happily maintaining a non-aggression pact, those silly old men reported for duty with bread knives tied to broomhandles to defend their country against the Panzer tanks and Stormtroopers of the expected invasion. They were willing to die in their hundreds of thousands and millions and, although they knew they were fighting against a totalitarian regime, and foreign evil they were not fighting to protect multiculturalism nor fighting as part of a "European civil war". They were fighting for their King and their British Empire and for a set of beliefs, many of which would seem laughable today. And they were fighting against the Bosche and the Hun and the Krauts!

I still think we should acknowledge what they were and what they did and accept their beliefs with due respect and the same for the young men who flew nasty missions in Bomber Command.
 
There's a growing trend on the internet to express distaste, disgust, to the point of it almost becoming a p***ing contest to see who can be the most disgusted and post ridiculous things that they'd never say in company. You can see people jumping on a bandwagon to do this. Shame really as most of the time the underlying sentiments are correct and would have everyone agreeing, but the point gets lost in the escalation of disgust.
 
Yves Geza said:
I'll go further. I think Archbishop Welby's expressions of regret are completely wrong and unhelpful.
Click to expand...

Whatever the arguments, events here 70 years ago left a deep wound and diminished all our humanity.
‘So as a follower of Jesus I stand here among you with a profound feeling of regret and deep sorrow.’
Click to expand...

Nothing "wrong" or "unhelpful" about expressing sorrow and regret over the death of 25,000 people ... unless you have some weird sort of jingoistic agenda.
I'm sure if he had been speaking in Coventry or London for a similar anniversary he would have had much the same to say.
War is always a defeat and the deaths it inflicts are always regrettable, especially in total war where innocent civilians, including children, pay the price.
 
gramps said:
Nothing "wrong" or "unhelpful" about expressing sorrow and regret over the death of 25,000 people ... unless you have some weird sort of jingoistic agenda.
Click to expand...

That's not quite fair, gramps. I suggested that Archbishop Welby's apology was unhelpful because it would be taken out of context and you immediately took my words ...
 
Yves Geza said:
That's not quite fair, gramps. I suggested that Archbishop Welby's apology was unhelpful because it would be taken out of context and you immediately took my words ...
Click to expand...

I don't think so ... if people choose to misquote the Archbishop it is they who are being unhelpful.
Imagine you not being able to express your feelings because everything you say would be misquoted!
 
On the 29th September 1942 at 10.25 a lone german bomber flew over Petworth, there are some theories but the general opinion seems
to be that they were aiming at the garrison camped in the grounds of Petworth House and missed hitting a local school instead, killing
28 children.
I don't think anyone considered the school was the intended target, just part of the inaccuracies of the day, the cemetery where they were buried
along with their teacher is in a now unkempt cemetery with a a decaying chapel, the only part that is maintained is the children's grave.
Sadly in war there will always be innocent victims on all sides, life would be better if people could just all get along and stop
killing each other, but we all know that is never going to happen, there are bad people and bad decisions made on all sides
Hindsight is a wonderful thing
 
My family lived in Coventry. My father as a 15 year was kicking incendiary bombs into the gutter during the blitz.He never talked of it. Whatever had to be done to shorten the war had to be done
 
ghoti said:
The commanders who gave orders for Dresden were war criminals, yes. They were evil scum and should have hung with the nazis. And as I've said: we may have known about the camps but we didn't know the scale of the holocaust at that stage. In any case, that's irrelevant. That the German regime was utterly evil and murderous does not excuse the senseless, indiscriminate slaughter of 25,000 innocent civilians. As I've said, you don't avenge the killing of innocents by killing more innocents.
Click to expand...

Absolute rubbish
 
viv1969 said:
Because they didn't "flatten the Midlands"

Please tell me you're not comparing a series of air raids, resulting in less than 500 deaths, to the deaths of 25,000 in the carpet bombing of a single city.
Click to expand...

Ask anyone living in Coventry or Birmingham at that time
 
johnb said:
Ask anyone living in Coventry or Birmingham at that time
Click to expand...

I tell you what, I'll ask the less than 300 people who died in Coventry, you go ask those of Dresden eh?
 
Or even written.
 
simonblue said:
Joseph Goebbels must be having a right old :LOL:,couldnt have written the propaganda about Dresen better himself.
Click to expand...

Having just spent a couple of days in Dresen two weeks ago - no propaganda required it is a a very sobering place to walk around. Some of the old city has been beautfully rebuilt in many ways this heightens the impact... Personally I have no opinion about the rights and wrongs, I have no ability to even image the process the leads to decisions like this and for that I am grateful.
 
I tell you what, I'll ask the less than 300 people who died in Coventry, you go ask those of Dresden eh?
Click to expand...

The number was nearly 600. It was low because the population left town at night or used shelters, because of sensible civil defence measures. Something the Germans for all their organising didn't bother doing. I suppose that was the RAF's fault as well?
 
Bernie174 said:
The number was nearly 600. It was low because the population left town at night or used shelters, because of sensible civil defence measures. Something the Germans for all their organising didn't bother doing. I suppose that was the RAF's fault as well?
Click to expand...

Love for you to point out to me where I've apportioned blame in that way Bernard.
 
So how do people think this compares with Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings which killed at least 140,000 mostly civilians ?
As far as I am aware no regret or apology has ever been offered for that and the debate as to it being a war crime still continues.
The Enola Gay which dropped the first bomb is even restored and on display
 
I don't recall Germany ever apologising about the torpedoing and sinking of the Lusitania in 1915 with a loss of over 1,000 lives.
 
My grandma's house in Littleover, Derby was bombed too. The cat was killed. Maybe we should have Gerry apologise for that too.
What a p***ing contest :rolleyes:
 
If you read back up this page, Ruth, you're the only one having a p***ing contest ... and you're not equipped for it :whistle: :exit:
 
Really? The whole thread springs from an apology that wasn't even an apology.
 
Bernie174 said:
The number was nearly 600. It was low because the population left town at night or used shelters, because of sensible civil defence measures.
Click to expand...

An estimated 568 people were killed in the raid (the exact figure was never precisely confirmed) with another 863 badly injured and 393 sustaining lesser injuries. Given the intensity of the raid, casualties were limited by the fact that a large number of Coventrians "trekked" out of the city at night to sleep in nearby towns or villages following the earlier air raids.

Operation Mondscheinsonate had 515 bombers and pathfinders dropping loads of high explosives and incendiaries (two types, magnesium and petroleum based). 14th November 1940. Just like to point out that was 4.5 years before Dresden so you can see it was common military practice to drop a mixed load for maximum effect.

Lets not also forget April 1941 with another large raid on coventry, about 451 people were killed and over 700 seriously injured.

Liverpool was the city with the most loss of civilian lives after London.

Ancestry have digitised the records of civilan deaths and they are available online. Around 55000 uk civilians died as a result of ww2, around 40000 from attacks on the UK mainland. The commonweath war graves commission also have detailed records.
 
viv1969 said:
Really? The whole thread springs from an apology that wasn't even an apology.
Click to expand...

Just an expression of "deep regret and sorrow", but what I am saying is it wasn't an isolated case and happened on all sides, that's what happens
in wartime.

Being mixed race I possibly have a better insight into the personal feelings of some on both sides of the conflict, and suffered for it in my
childhood, but I accept that and have moved on
 
Byker28i said:
An estimated 568 people were killed in the raid (the exact figure was never precisely confirmed) with another 863 badly injured and 393 sustaining lesser injuries. Given the intensity of the raid, casualties were limited by the fact that a large number of Coventrians "trekked" out of the city at night to sleep in nearby towns or villages following the earlier air raids.

Operation Mondscheinsonate had 515 bombers and pathfinders dropping loads of high explosives and incendiaries (two types, magnesium and petroleum based). 14th November 1940. Just like to point out that was 4.5 years before Dresden so you can see it was common military practice to drop a mixed load for maximum effect.

Lets not also forget April 1941 with another large raid on coventry, about 451 people were killed and over 700 seriously injured.

Liverpool was the city with the most loss of civilian lives after London.

Ancestry have digitised the records of civilan deaths and they are available online. Around 55000 uk civilians died as a result of ww2, around 40000 from attacks on the UK mainland. The commonweath war graves commission also have detailed records.
Click to expand...

Interestingly Hitler stayed in Liverpool for a while and wanted to keep the Adelphi Hotel as a Headquarters after the war. The Luftwaffe used to use the Liver Building as a navigational feature and bombed the dockyards / warehouses either to the right or left of it. A few of the buildings survive close to the waterfront and evidence of shrapnel marks can still be seen.
 
There's a fair number of old bombsites in most British Cities, it's just they didn't have such a public fuss made of them. London was of course given a right seeing to, the eastern (it wasn't just the east end) side baring the brunt due to the docks, both north and south of the Thames.
 
Personally I'm fine with him, or anyone else, expressing regret over civilian deaths during this bombing, or during the war in general. It is something everyone should regret, even if you believe the right course of action was followed that lead to these deaths.

We can argue all day and night about whether this was the right thing to do, I have my view though it is arguably not informed enough, but that is not the point of this.
 
I find it astonishing that many people think that all German citizens at the time were 'supporters' of the Nazis.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top