Did the Archbishop of Canterbury just apologise for bombing the Nazis?

[big soft moose]

Not according to Pete apparently. Men, women, children just trying to go about their daily lives. Nah, f*** 'em, they just happened to be German.

Winston and co didnt wake up one morning and say " i know ,lets bomb germany" - the germans started the war by invading much of europe and trying to invade britain with the intent of suppressing democracy and replacing it with a facsist dictatorship... the good burghers of dresden would have quite happily stood by and let that happen in the name of deutchland uber alles.

So no, I don't regret the deaths of enemies who wanted to take over our country and destroy our way of life. Thats what you get when you allow a fascist demagoue to take over your countries goverment and start a war of aggression with his neighbours, including bombing large swathes of british cities out of existence

If bombing dresden or indeed nuking hiroshima helped to shorten the war or to save the life of one member of allied forces then it was worth doing, and i have no regret that it was done.

The only deaths I do regret at dresden are those of the unfortunate prisoners of war/ political prisoners who the Nazi's drafted in as forced labour to clear up after the first raid and who subsequently got caught in the bombing.

and on topic - if the archbishop of canterbury wants what he says to be considered a personal opinion - he should only say it on his personal time. Whatever he says during an official visit is going to be seen as an official view , regardless of whatever spin his office puts out afterwards.

 

[viv1969]

Not according to Pete apparently. Men, women, children just trying to go about their daily lives. Nah, f*** 'em, they just happened to be German.

Nail hit clean on the head, it appears.

 

[big soft moose]

Nail hit clean on the head, it appears.

except that its 'not just because they happen to be german' I'm not for example suggesting that it would be justified to bomb germany now (or at any time since 1945)

its because "they just happen to be the population of a country with whom we were at war and who's airforce were regularly bombing british men, women and children"

 

[Marc]

Winston and co didnt wake up one morning and say " i know ,lets bomb germany" - the germans started the war by invading much of europe and trying to invade britain with the intent of suppressing democracy and replacing it with a facsist dictatorship... the good burghers of dresden would have quite happily stood by and let that happen in the name of deutchland uber alles.

So no, I don't regret the deaths of enemies who wanted to take over our country and destroy our way of life. Thats what you get when you allow a fascist demagoue to take over your countries goverment and start a war of aggression with his neighbours, including bombing large swathes of british cities out of existence

If bombing dresden or indeed nuking hiroshima helped to shorten the war or to save the life of one member of allied forces then it was worth doing, and i have no regret that it was done.

The only deaths I do regret at dresden are those of the unfortunate prisoners of war/ political prisoners who the Nazi's drafted in as forced labour to clear up after the first raid and who subsequently got caught in the bombing.

and on topic - if the archbishop of canterbury wants what he says to be considered a personal opinion - he should only say it on his personal time. Whatever he says during an official visit is going to be seen as an official view , regardless of whatever spin his office puts out afterwards.

Pete, just what part of

Do you not regret the fact that thousands of innocent civilians were killed? You may feel that the actions were justified but the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

are you struggling to understand?

 

[big soft moose]

:bang:

I understand you point , but i don't agree with it. In my view they weren't innocent - they were the population of a country who started a war with us... i do not regret at all the death of any german (with the exception of the very small number who were on our side) during ww2. As I said that is what happens when you allow a fascist dictator to take over your country and start a war of agression with your neighbours.

Personally i save my regret for the british (and allied/occupied) people who died during the war.

If you want to shed a tear for the deaths of your enemies feel free, but i won't be joining you

 

[viv1969]

:banghead:

I understand you point , but i don't agree with it. In my view they weren't innocent - they were the population of a country who started a war with us... i do not regret at all the death of any german (with the exception of the very small number who were on our side) during ww2. As I said that is what happens when you allow a fascist dictator to take over your country and start a war of agression with your neighbours.

Personally i save my regret for the british (and allied/occupied) people who died during the war.

If you want to shed a tear for the deaths of your enemies feel free, but i won't be joining you

The children who were killed weren't innocent? Seriously? They had a hand in starting the war?

 

[Marc]

:banghead:

I understand you point , but i don't agree with it. In my view they weren't innocent - they were the population of a country who started a war with us... i do not regret at all the death of any german (with the exception of the very small number who were on our side) during ww2. As I said that is what happens when you allow a fascist dictator to take over your country and start a war of agression with your neighbours.

Personally i save my regret for the british (and allied/occupied) people who died during the war.

If you want to shed a tear for the deaths of your enemies feel free, but i won't be joining you

So, in your view, people who just happened to be German and were only trying to go about their daily lives (including children) weren't innocent?

 

[dejongj]

For as far as anyone can go about their daily lives in a world war? Seriously? It was a rather special situation. I never like to see casualties, however pussyfooting around and letting it continue is not an option. From personal family ties in glad there were brave men and woman who were willing to make such hard and necessary decisions.

Sure years afterwards with many additional bits of information it is always easy to suggest an alternative approach.

 

[big soft moose]

So, in your view, people who just happened to be German and were only trying to go about their daily lives (including children) weren't innocent?

The population of a country are responsible for the actions of its government ergo the germans allowed hitler to come to power - and sufffered the consequences .. okay so children may be fair enough were innocent of the actions of their parents , but there is no suggestion that the archbishop was reffering soley to the deaths of children.

How many tears did the germans shed when the luffewaffe pulverised cities is france, belgium, netherlands, norway, poland, yugoslavia, greece etc, and of course Britain. You reap what you sow imo

End of the day personally I believe it is hypocritical to express regret for the consequences of actions if you don't regret taking the actions themselves. Ergo if we agree that bombing Dresden was necessary, then i can't feel regret for the consequences.

 

[Gremlin]

Never having lived through a war it's difficult to say how much of a normal daily life can be continued, but you still can't accuse children of being guilty
and wishing them dead surely ?
I don't think we will ever know the full story behind all the horrors of WW2, what pushed someone to instigate all that happened:
Power, World Domination, Wealth ?
or just a sad twisted mind of someone who failed in life but had a charismatic way of talking to get their own way

 

[Marc]

The population of a country are responsible for the actions of its government ergo the germans allowed hitler to come to power - and sufffered the consequences .. okay so children may be fair enough were innocent of the actions of their parents , but there is no suggestion that the archbishop was reffering soley to the deaths of children.

How many tears did the germans shed when the luffewaffe pulverised cities is france, belgium, netherlands, norway, poland, yugoslavia, greece etc, and of course Britain. You reap what you sow imo

End of the day personally I believe it is hypocritical to express regret for the consequences of actions if you don't regret taking the actions themselves. Ergo if we agree that bombing Dresden was necessary, then i can't feel regret for the consequences.

Of course it isn't hypocritical. It's perfectly normal to feel regret for the death of innocents, even if you feel there was no other choice at the time.

As for the population of a country being responsible for the actions of its government, what a load of twaddle! Did every German vote the National Socialist party into power. Could all of the German people have possibly foreseen "the final solution"?

 

[viv1969]

How many tears did the germans shed when the luffewaffe pulverised cities is france, belgium, netherlands, norway, poland, yugoslavia, greece etc, and of course Britain. You reap what you sow imo

You have no idea what they thought or what they did....oh...wait...

 

[simonblue]

Short length of a very long piece of string,Dresden wasn't the only German city bombed during the war,should we start to regret other raids on other city ?,and where should it end.

I never like to think of innocent children caught up in the Horror of war,but their parent who brought on the the Horrors of WWII,did they not think of all the innocent children that would be killed in this total war,which they decaled on the rest of the word.

As i said why Dresden,maybe because Joseph Goebbels used the raid on Dresden as Nazi propaganda after the raid,he had a photo printed of 2 burned & dead German children,and said that over 200,000 people had been killed in the raid and it was the German holocaust,also knowing that by that time most of the concretion camp had or were about to be liberated showing the full nature of the Nazis.

 

[big soft moose]

Of course it isn't hypocritical. It's perfectly normal to feel regret for the death of innocents, even if you feel there was no other choice at the time.

but if you regret it then you wish it hadnt happened - but if you feel there was no other choice then you can't wish it hadn't happened . Essentially saying "i wish this hadn't been necessary but it was" is ultimately pointless and brings comfort to no one except the utterer... and thus is both self serving and hypocritical

As for the population of a country being responsible for the actions of its government, what a load of twaddle! Did every German vote the National Socialist party into power. Could all of the German people have possibly foreseen "the final solution"?

Did they do anything about it once it was happening ? was there a popular uprising against the nazi's or an effective german resistance (and don't say 'oh they couldnt do that it would have been out down brutally' - that potential consequence didnt stop the dutch, poles, french, yugoslavs, norwegians , greeks etc ) ... no they mostly didn't (and yes a few did, but it was a very few). And if you see that kind of thing happening but just "go about your usual life" ignoring or accepting it then you are tacitly approving and condoning it, and thus deserve the consequence of the actions

 

[big soft moose]

I never like to think of innocent children caught up in the Horror of war,but their parent who brought on the the Horrors of WWII,did they not think of all the innocent children that would be killed in this total war,which they decaled on the rest of the word.
.

not to mention that dresden was a legitimate military target with aircraft factories, a poison gas factory, various electrical component factories, a large rail marshalling yard, and two key strategic routes by which the germans were moving arms and men to the eastern front. Many of these "daily lives" that people were going about would have been working in those facilities.

 

[Marc]

but if you regret it then you wish it hadnt happened - but if you feel there was no other choice then you can't wish it hadn't happened . Essentially saying "i wish this hadn't been necessary but it was" is ultimately pointless and brings comfort to no one except the utterer... and thus is both self serving and hypocritical

Pete, your twisting of the english language to try to make a point would make Scrivens envious.

Did they do anything about it once it was happening ? was there a popular uprising against the nazi's or an effective german resistance (and don't say 'oh they could do that it would have been out down brutally' - that potential consequence didnt stop the dutch, poles, french, yugoslavs, norwegians , greeks etc ) ... no they mostly didn't (and yes a few did, but it was a very few). And if you see that kind of thing happening but just "go about your usual life" ignoring or accepting it then you are tacitly approving and condoning it, and thus deserve the consequence of the actions

Your ability to judge people who lived in circumstances you couldn't even begin to imagine is astounding.

 

[big soft moose]

Your ability to judge people who lived in circumstances you couldn't even begin to imagine is astounding.

And how were those circumstances different from the circumstances in say occupied france ? or occupied holland ? (and forgive me if i'm wrong, but i'm not aware of you living though the 2nd world war as a german citizen either, so as far as i know both us are only basing our perception on second hand information)

 

[simonblue]

Of course it isn't hypocritical. It's perfectly normal to feel regret for the death of innocents, even if you feel there was no other choice at the time.

As for the population of a country being responsible for the actions of its government, what a load of twaddle! Did every German vote the National Socialist party into power. Could all of the German people have possibly foreseen "the final solution"?

Hitler secretary said in one of her last interviews before her death.

I went along after the war like most of the German people convincing myself their wasn't much we could have done to stop Hitler & the Nazis,that we were all caught up in the times,but one day i walked past Sophie Scholl museum,I went in and when i came out i knew,we should of done more,and could of done more.

 

[Marc]

And how were those circumstances different from the circumstances in say occupied france ? or occupied holland ? (and forgive me if i'm wrong, but i'm not aware of you living though the 2nd world war as a german citizen either, so as far as i know both us are only basing our perception on second hand information)

I think the word "occupied" makes a hell of a difference. When you are organising a resistance, there's a hell of a lot more chance of finding sympathisers to your cause amongst your own people when it's against a foreign invasion force than when it's within your own country.

And no, I didn't live through the 2nd world war but I'm not judging those who did.

 

[big soft moose]

I think the word "occupied" makes a hell of a difference. When you are organising a resistance, there's a hell of a lot more chance of finding sympathisers to your cause amongst your own people when it's against a foreign invasion force than when it's within your own country.

so now you agree that most of the german people wouldn't have sympathised with resistance ? In that case we are back to my core point that they broadly supported the nazi regime and deserved what they got.

] And no, I didn't live through the 2nd world war but I'm not judging those who did.

apart from of course the allied commanders who ordered the dresden attack and the brave men of the RAF and USAF who carried it out - but hey its okay to judge them with the benefit of hindsight because, well ... erm

 

[big soft moose]

oddly enough a large part of what resistance there was to the nazi regime came from the church - i seem to recal reading that there was a special 'priest barracks' at dachau , for those german priests caught or alledged to be opposing the nazi party

 

[Marc]

so now you agree that most of the german people wouldn't have sympathised with resistance ? In that case we are back to my core point that they broadly supported the nazi regime and deserved what they got.

That's not what I said at all. I said there was a lot more chance of finding sympathisers in an occupied country because (apart from any collaborators) you're a lot less likely to find yourself in deep s*** if you express you're desire to act than if you are in your own country where there is a lot more likelihood of expressing those desires to the wrong person.

apart from of course the allied commanders who ordered the dresden attack and the brave men of the RAF and USAF who carried it out - but hey its okay to judge them with the benefit of hindsight because, well ... erm

And where have I judged them?

 

[andya700]

Maybe we can hold a day of commemoration for the 30,000 merchant seamen who were killed as a result of U Boat attacks from 1939 - 45, and we can invite the Germans across to express their regret and sympathy

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/annemariepurnell/can5.html

It is regretful when anyone is killed in war, and even more sad when they are innocent civilians. The civilians in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, Britain were totally innocent, however I believe that the Germans were less innocent, because many got carried along on a wave of extreme nationalism, couple with a militaristic glorification of war. Hitler was a fantastic orator, someone who captured the imagination of the masses, someone who convinced the German people that they would be great.
We have done plenty of really bad things in the past, most of them connected to our empire building, but I think that the majority of us recognise that.

 

[big soft moose]

That's not what I said at all. I said there was a lot more chance of finding sympathisers in an occupied country because (apart from any collaborators) you're a lot less likely to find yourself in deep s*** if you express you're desire to act than if you are in your own country where there is a lot more likelihood of expressing those desires to the wrong person.
?

so why would there be more chance of expressing the views to the wrong person if the majority don't support the regime ?

 

[big soft moose]

Maybe we can hold a day of commemoration for the 30,000 merchant seamen who were killed as a result of U Boat attacks from 1939 - 45, and we can invite the Germans across to express their regret and sympathy
.

or the 42,000 british civilians killed dring the blitz

or the entire population of Oradur Sur Glane

countless other examples

personally though i don't expect the current german population to apologise for something their grandfathers did - the whole concept of restrospective apology is ridiculous

 

[Marc]

so why would there be more chance of expressing the views to the wrong person if the majority don't support the regime ?

First of all, I never said anything about the majority not supporting the regime. I've never said that every single person in Dresden was blameless. However, if you were a frenchman in occupied France, your chances of confiding in a fellow Frenchman and finding the Gestapo knocking on the door a few hours later were way slimmer than if you were a German in Germany as it wasn't a obvious as to who would be on your side.

 

[big soft moose]

First of all, I never said anything about the majority not supporting the regime. I've never said that every single person in Dresden was blameless. However, if you were a frenchman in occupied France, your chances of confiding in a fellow Frenchman and finding the Gestapo knocking on the door a few hours later were way slimmer than if you were a German in Germany as it wasn't a obvious as to who would be on your side.

and it was obvious in occupied france ? - the actions of collaborators and informers (and the number of people executed due to their activities) suggest otherwise. End of the day confiding to anyone that you intend to resist is risky as hell... as many french etc found out to their cost .

however that aside - if we accept that the majority of germans were pro hitler then we return to the central theme - if they were pro hitler then they asked for what they got and i can't regret their deaths

 

[Marc]

and it was obvious in occupied france ? - the actions of collaborators and informers (and the number of people executed due to their activities) suggest otherwise. End of the day confiding to anyone that you intend to resist is risky as hell... as many french etc found out to their cost .

however that aside - if we accept that the majority of germans were pro hitler then we return to the central theme - if they were pro hitler then they asked for what they got and i can't regret their deaths

I said it wasn't AS obvious

As for the rest, I really can't be bothered carrying on with the debate because all you're doing is picking at words.

 

[viv1969]

- the whole concept of restrospective apology is ridiculous

Really? So after an argument, you've never realised you were in the wrong and apologised.
You must be a joy to live with.

 

[big soft moose]

I really can't be bothered carrying on with the debate because all you're doing is picking at words.

lol - pots and kettles much

i'm happy to disagree but to make my position 100% clear I regret the deaths of any innocents during WW2 (indeed war in general) - period, however my definition of innocent doesnt extend to anyone who supported (or didnt oppose which ammount to the same thing - children excepted) the nazi regime

on point the archbishop should think more carefully before he opens his mouth

 

[Neil B]

lol - pots and kettles much

i'm happy to disagree but to make my position 100% clear I regret the deaths of any innocents during WW2 (indeed war in general) - period, however my definition of innocent doesnt extend to anyone who supported (or didnt oppose which ammount to the same thing - children excepted) the nazi regime

on point the archbishop should think more carefully before he opens his mouth

f*** me that's a bit rich

 

[big soft moose]

f*** me that's a bit rich

not really - my argument is consistent and logical, and most importantly its my own personal opinion and i'm not 'here' on official business speaking for any organisation, body, or country.

so you and others disagree with me - thats fine, but it doesnt make my position ill thought out

the archbishop of canterbury however was speaking on official business representing the church and by extension the nation - and the very fact that his office had to offer a clarification that he wasn't apologising showed that it could have been perceived by many that he was (afterall thats what regret and sorrow generally means) and thus that he hadn't thought sufficiently about what impact his words would have (which given his position he really should have done)

 

[viv1969]

At no point does the ABoC represent the nation.
Those citizens who are of the Church of England faith, yes; the entire nation? Not even close.

 

[Gremlin]

and it was obvious in occupied france ? - the actions of collaborators and informers (and the number of people executed due to their activities) suggest otherwise. End of the day confiding to anyone that you intend to resist is risky as hell... as many french etc found out to their cost .
however that aside - if we accept that the majority of germans were pro hitler then we return to the central theme - if they were pro hitler then they asked for what they got and i can't regret their deaths

and that happening in a foreign occupied country makes it less likely to happen in Germany, you really think so ?

Something really awful must have happened to someone close to you for you to have such an unforgiving opinion of things that
happened during WW2

 

[Blank_Canvas]

The children who were killed weren't innocent? Seriously? They had a hand in starting the war?

Actually Ruth, children (Hitler Youth) took up arms and literally returned fire defending Berlin as the Russians closed in while Hitler and his cronies were in lockdown in his bunker, they certainly were involved by the end of the war. Shocking,

 

[big soft moose]

Actually Ruth, children (Hitler Youth) took up arms and literally returned fire defending Berlin as the Russians closed in while Hitler and his cronies were in lockdown in his bunker, they certainly were involved by the end of the war. Shocking,

In fact hitler youth were involved from a very early stage - one of their first duties even before the war started was to inform on their elders

 

[new2me]

Actually Ruth, children (Hitler Youth) took up arms and literally returned fire defending Berlin as the Russians closed in while Hitler and his cronies were in lockdown in his bunker, they certainly were involved by the end of the war. Shocking,

Not the ones in Dresden obviously, because they'd been killed by bombers.
What are people arguing about now ... actually, I'm not interested as I have only watched the first Indiana Jones movie and am still none the wiser as to the Nazi's religious beliefs.

 

[Blank_Canvas]

Maybe we can hold a day of commemoration for the 30,000 merchant seamen who were killed as a result of U Boat attacks from 1939 - 45, and we can invite the Germans across to express their regret and sympathy

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/annemariepurnell/can5.html.

We do it's called Remembrance Sunday. Representatives from the MM / RFA lay reefs at the Cenotaph and also attend the Royal British Legions Ceremony of Remembrance, Reefs are also laid at MN memorials in Liverpool, Portsmouth and at the National Arboretum.

I mentioned the Lusitania in an earlier post.

 

[viv1969]

Actually Ruth, children (Hitler Youth) took up arms and literally returned fire defending Berlin as the Russians closed in while Hitler and his cronies were in lockdown in his bunker, they certainly were involved by the end of the war. Shocking,

And anyone under 14?

 

[big soft moose]

and that happening in a foreign occupied country makes it less likely to happen in Germany, you really think so ?

no - read my post again , I agree its likely that resistance fighters would be informed on wherever they were - however that didnt stop resistance movements forming in nearly all the occupied zones - ergo the reason for the limited resisytance in germany could only be cowardice (which seems unlikely) or that actually the vast majority of germans supported the reich

Something really awful must have happened to someone close to you for you to have such an unforgiving opinion of things that
happened during WW2

no more than happened to a lot of other peoples families... but of my wifes grand parents and mine 2 of the 4 grandfathers were in the RAF , both in bomber comand, and i won't have them described as war criminals for bombing the "innocent" folk of germany , who actually mosty richly deserved what they got