Did the Archbishop of Canterbury just apologise for bombing the Nazis?

viv1969 said:
You have no idea what they thought or what they did....oh...wait...
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and neither do you - but their actions suggest support for the reich (per posts above)
 
viv1969 said:
And anyone under 14?
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the boys were mostly part of the deuchtes jungvolk arm which was pretty much the same thing but for younger kids (and by 1945 rules had been relaxed and kids as young as ten had taken up arms)
 
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viv1969 said:
Really? So after an argument, you've never realised you were in the wrong and apologised.
.
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I'm not sure what planet you are on most of the time - but apologising imediately after an argument for something you did yourself, is completely different to expecting an apology for something your grand parents generation did 70 or so years ago - only the latter qualifies as 'the concept of retreospective apology.
 
big soft moose said:
the boys were mostly part of the deuchtes jungvolk arm which was pretty much the same thing but for younger kids (and buy 1945 rules had been relaxed and kids as young as ten had taken up arms)
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Do you actually have shares in wiki? (Or on staff?) :)
 
It was a war. Some people that were our enemy at the time fried. Get over it and move on! :D
 
big soft moose said:
I'm not sure what planet you are on most of the time - but apologising imediately after an argument for something you did yourself, is completely different to expecting an apology for something your grand parents generation did 70 or so years ago - only the latter qualifies as 'the concept of retreospective apology.
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Apologising immediately after an argument us doing so retrospectively. Your definition.
 
new2me said:
Not the ones in Dresden obviously, because they'd been killed by bombers.
What are people arguing about now ... actually, I'm not interested as I have only watched the first Indiana Jones movie and am still none the wiser as to the Nazi's religious beliefs.
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If it's any help and as Hitler formed the Nazi Party

In 1919, Hitler attended his first meeting of the German Workers' party, an anti-Semitic, nationalist group as a spy for the German Army. However, he found he agreed with Anton Drexler's German nationalism and anti-Semitism.
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Not that I'm convinced you would have have needed any religious beliefs to join

Oh and Hitler's great grandmother was a Jewish maid
 
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big soft moose said:
no - read my post again , I agree its likely that resistance fighters would be informed on wherever they were - however that didnt stop resistance movements forming in nearly all the occupied zones - ergo the reason for the limited resisytance in germany could only be cowardice (which seems unlikely) or that actually the vast majority of germans supported the reich
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Or perhaps an entirely different reason, commonly known as self preservation
 
viv1969 said:
Do you actually have shares in wiki? (Or on staff?) :)
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no wikipedia needed there - as i said before I read a lot, i know stuff.
 
Gremlin said:
Or perhaps an entirely different reason, commonly known as self preservation
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and this was different for the french, norwegians etc how exactly ?

yes sure some people chose not to put themselves in danger by resisting - some will always choose that route ... but if your govt is acting reprehensibly and you do nothing out of self preservation then you tacitly condone their actions and I have no sympathy if you get bombed as a result
 
viv1969 said:
Apologising immediately after an argument us doing so retrospectively. Your definition.
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sigh - its self evident what i was talking about , just as it is that you are arguing for the sake of it

however apologising when an apology is called for is not retrospective (retrospective being dealing with past events not present ones) , apologising 70 years later on the other hand is - go and look it up in the OED
 
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kennethwfd said:
Yes, I do Including my relatives of a previous generation.(the only good German is a dead one)
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OK. Conversely, I've never known anyone of the wartime generation with such a lasting and visceral hatred of the Germans. I do know a few Jewish people of my age (early 60s) who lost family members in the camps, murdered by the Nazis, and I wouldn't say that they harbour any warmth towards Germans, but they don't hate them either.

Don't start regarding the Japanese.and their involveent in WW2
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I hadn't even thought about doing so, but I might, now that you've brought it up. Please don't try to tell me what I may, and may not, do on the forums. That's reserved to the staff/mods and, as far as I know, you're not one of them.

And see earlier post re Mrs. Pertwee
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I did. Someone made a derogatory remark about "krauts" and Mr Pertwee - whom I've never heard of - was offended because his wife is German. So what?
 
big soft moose said:
sigh - its self evident what i was talking about , just as it is that you are arguing for the sake of it

however apologising when an apology is called for is not retrospective , apologising 70 years later on the other hand is - go and look it up in the OED
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Ah the eponymous moose sigh....when real language just won't do.

And to save you the searching, retrospective simply means looking back on events. There's no time frame.
 
viv1969 said:
Ah the eponymous moose sigh....when real language just won't do.

And to save you the searching, retrospective simply means looking back on events. There's no time frame.
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retrospective means dealing with the past - apologising imediately you realise you are wrong is not a past event... I don't need to search because like i said I know stuff ... you on the other hand would benefit from reading an OED. while you are at it you could also look up 'eponymous' about which meaning you are also patently confused

oh and the sigh expresses exasperation.. in this case that we are again dragged into splitting hairs that couldn't matter a toss to the point of the thread
 
Definition of retrospective in English:

ADJECTIVE

1Looking back on or dealing with past events or situations:

eponymousɪˈpɒnɪməs/adjective(of a person) giving their name to something

Oh and the definition of past is anything not in the present.

And a sigh is only effective when expressed physically.

Just so you can sleep tonight.
 
viv1969 said:
Definition of retrospective in English:

ADJECTIVE

1Looking back on or dealing with past events or situations:

eponymousɪˈpɒnɪməs/adjective(of a person) giving their name to something

Oh and the definition of past is anything not in the present.

And a sigh is only effective when expressed physically.

Just so you can sleep tonight.
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so you've just proved my point - retrospective looks back on past situation not those in the present - so not apologising after a present argument then :bang:

Its blindingly obvious to anyone but a simpleton that when i said "retrospective apology was ridiculous" i meant the concept of us apologising for dresden , or the germans apologising for the holocaust .. - but for some reason you chose to drag this into a personal argument about whether i'd apologise after an argument (in the present , not in the past)
 
big soft moose said:
so you've just proved my point - retrospective looks back on past situation not those in the present.
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Past:
noun1.the time before the moment of speaking or writing

Moment....not hour, year or generation.
 
viv1969 said:
Past:
noun1.the time before the moment of speaking or writing

Moment....not hour, year or generation.
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Viv, stop wasting your time, Pete read Warlord, Victor and Commando comics as a kid. He knows everything about all things. I'm surprised that you have not grasped that fact yet.
 
MartynK said:
OK. Conversely, I've never known anyone of the wartime generation with such a lasting and visceral hatred of the Germans. I do know a few Jewish people of my age (early 60s) who lost family members in the camps, murdered by the Nazis, and I wouldn't say that they harbour any warmth towards Germans, but they don't hate them either.



I hadn't even thought about doing so, but I might, now that you've brought it up. Please don't try to tell me what I may, and may not, do on the forums. That's reserved to the staff/mods and, as far as I know, you're not one of them.



I did. Someone made a derogatory remark about "krauts" and Mr Pertwee - whom I've never heard of - was offended because his wife is German. So what?
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Martyn, my late uncle was captured by the Japanese in Burma. He worked on the infamous railway (Bridge over the River Kwai and all that), and he saw sights (torture and beheadings of prisoners - ISIL are the "new Japanese"), that he never could forgive the Japanese for what they had done.
He was an intelligent man, but any mention of the Japanese brought out an anger in him.
I suggest that there are many people belonging to the Jewish communities and others who feel the same way about Germans.
 
big soft moose said:
the boys were mostly part of the deuchtes jungvolk arm which was pretty much the same thing but for younger kids (and by 1945 rules had been relaxed and kids as young as ten had taken up arms)
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and the one most important point you have failed to mentioned i that is was mandatory for all children to join, I wonder what the penalties
were for parents/children that didn't comply , a bit tougher then our conscientious objectors I bet !
Say what you like many children are susceptible to peer pressure:

“These boys and girls enter our organizations [at] ten years of age, and often for the first time get a little fresh air; after four years of the Young Folk they go on to the Hitler Youth, where we have them for another four years . . . And even if they are still not complete National Socialists, they go to Labor Service and are smoothed out there for another six, seven months . . . And whatever class consciousness or social status might still be left . . . the Wehrmacht [German armed forces] will take care of that.”
—Adolf Hitler (1938)
 
andy700 said:
Martyn, my late uncle was captured by the Japanese in Burma. He worked on the infamous railway (Bridge over the River Kwai and all that), and he saw sights (torture and beheadings of prisoners - ISIL are the "new Japanese"), that he never could forgive the Japanese for what they had done.
He was an intelligent man, but any mention of the Japanese brought out an anger in him.
I suggest that there are many people belonging to the Jewish communities and others who feel the same way about Germans.
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I am glad that someone else has posted regarding Japanese POW's who actually had a relative who was one. The Japanese joined WW2 by bombing Pearl Harbor which brought the USA on board as well.

The Japanese refused to abide by the Geneva convention which stated minimum standards of treatement of POW's. It has been said that every sleeper on the Burma railway represents a life and those POW's which survived were in a state of emeciation today associated with starving African children

I find it sad, not that one contributor has not heard of Jon Pertwee but apparently the derogatory term "kraut" is acceptible.That we have frogs, wops, ities, dagoes, pakis wogs chinks and nips as well does suggest xenophobia. Perhaps we should remember about 1,000 frogs ended up being executed or sent to concentration camps for sabotaging German trains. Particulary on the run up to the Normandy landings
 
Gremlin said:
and the one most important point you have failed to mentioned i that is was mandatory for all children to join, I wonder what the penalties
were for parents/children that didn't comply , a bit tougher then our conscientious objectors I bet !
Say what you like many children are susceptible to peer pressure:

“These boys and girls enter our organizations [at] ten years of age, and often for the first time get a little fresh air; after four years of the Young Folk they go on to the Hitler Youth, where we have them for another four years . . . And even if they are still not complete National Socialists, they go to Labor Service and are smoothed out there for another six, seven months . . . And whatever class consciousness or social status might still be left . . . the Wehrmacht [German armed forces] will take care of that.”
—Adolf Hitler (1938)
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People of all Nation do have a choice,Ref Sophie Schooll, the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw ghetto,and the choice is often made well before theses people have the power,but we as human often go along with their lies & propaganda :(
 
Just had an interesting conversation with a work colleague: he is of German extraction and my father was Austrian. Growing up in the UK in the 1960s we were both marked out and ostracized as younger children. This thread has been useful because it's made me think about how my childhood was shaped by that, even though I'd never realised why I had been treated that way by the other children. I'd guess my 'difference' remained until until my mid 20s.

As for krauts, wops, dagos, pommie bastards etc, all those names belong to an earlier, casually cruel time, when abusing people was fully acceptable (provided it wasn't pointed out) and categorising with derogatory names made the business so much easier and more amusing. Historically there would have been little malice intended generally because in most thinking such names would be directly interchangeable with German, Italian, Spanish, English etc. It's only with the magnifying glass of hindsight that we decide these names are terrible, wicked words.
 
kennethwfd said:
I am glad that someone else has posted regarding Japanese POW's who actually had a relative who was one. The Japanese joined WW2 by bombing Pearl Harbor which brought the USA on board as well.
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did they ? I thought it was the japanese invasion of china in 1937 that kicked off WW2 in the pacific , and the axis pact (japan italy and germanay) was signed in 1940

ref the POW my paternal granfather was a liaison officer with the gurkhas (and later with chindit special forces) and was involved in the relief of some of the POW camps towards the end of the war, and some of the things he saw then were to haunt him til he died... he was another one with an abiding dislike of the japanese (and their german allies) and would not have japanese or german goods in the house.
 
big soft moose said:
....... he was another one with an abiding dislike of the japanese (and their german allies) and would not have japanese or german goods in the house.
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The older generation were/are like that Pete

When I was blown up in NI and ended up in hospital my old man developed a very distinct dislike for all things Irish
 
ST4 said:
These things happen in war.

Why its being discussed generations after the event beats me. Life moves on.
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(y)

It always makes me wonder when the left wing attack churchill and co - do they not realise that had we lost Hitler would have put people with their political views in concentration camps :thinking:

"thanks for saving us from incaerration and a slow and horrible death, but hey we don't like the way you did so we're going to accuse you of war crimes" :bang:
 
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More likely liberals than left wing attacking Churchill these days, since socialism tends to take a fairly utilitarian view of things.
 
big soft moose said:
did they ? I thought it was the japanese invasion of china in 1937 that kicked off WW2 in the pacific , and the axis pact (japan italy and germanay) was signed in 1940

.
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yes I should modify above post, that indeed Japan declared war with China in 1937

The generally agreed date for the start of WW2 was 3 sept 1939 by Britain following Hitler's invasion of Poland and the japanese joined forces withh Germany by the axis agreement and were soon a threat to Allied shipping in the Pacific

The significance of Pearl Harbor is that it came out of the blue (though questions have been asked regarding were the Americans totally unaware) the significance was to change the US stance regarding WW2 and it promptly declared war on Japan as well
 
kennethwfd said:
yes I should modify above post, that indeed Japan declared war with China in 1937

The generally agreed date for the start of WW2 was 3 sept 1939 by Britain following Hitler's invasion of Poland and the japanese joined forces withh Germany by the axis agreement and were soon a threat to Allied shipping in the Pacific

The significance of Pearl Harbor is that it came out of the blue (though questions have been asked regarding were the Americans totally unaware) the significance was to change the US stance regarding WW2 and it promptly declared war on Japan as well
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Most historians think of the Spanish civil war as the opening of ww2
 
boyfalldown said:
Most historians think of the Spanish civil war as the opening of ww2
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depends how you look at it you could say that the japanese invasion of manchuria in 1931 was the start of it

you could also make a case for the beer hall putsch in 1923 , or Mussolinis march on rome in 1922
 
big soft moose said:
depends how you look at it you could say that the japanese invasion of manchuria in 1931 was the start of it

you could also make a case for the beer hall putsch in 1923 , or Mussolinis march on rome in 1922
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You could & just as easily view both ww1 & 2 as one long conflict with a big gap. But my point really was its hard to put one event as the start
 
big soft moose said:
depends how you look at it you could say that the japanese invasion of manchuria in 1931 was the start of it

you could also make a case for the beer hall putsch in 1923 , or Mussolinis march on rome in 1922
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Or the Treaty of Versailles in 1919?
 
MartynK said:
Or the Treaty of Versailles in 1919?
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indeed - as hugh said you could pretty much consider 1&2 as one conflict with a big hiatus.

come to that you coulkd probably trace the problem to the unification of germany in 1871 or even the formation of the german confederation in 1815 at the congress of viena (with the end of the napoleonic wars.

Trouble is if you go too far down that road you can trace the net cause of all warfare to the moment that Ugg picked up a stone and hit ogg with it because he wanted his cave
 
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