Does English cooking have a "Dumpling"? aka, anything that is pastry wrapped 360 with filling and bite size. Cornish pasty need not apply.

Raymond Lin

Raymond Lin

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I was just thinking the other day, I can't think of the equivalent of a dumpling in the UK. To qualify as one, it's a bite size pastry wrapped around with a filling completely. (This is the goal post, Cornish pasty too large, Sausage rolls has ends, Scotch eggs is not pastry). The one most people think of is like a Japanese Gyoza, if you are American it's call Pot stickers. Even a Rivioli counts (Italian), or even a Samosa (Indian). You can fry, steam, boil or whatever method you like. The only thing you need to do is wrap something in pastry (not batter) and no holes either end so sausage rolls don't count.

I just can't think of any and wondering how come all these centuries no one thought of this cooking method on these shores? It seems like such a simple idea.

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Cornish pasty. If you've got a big bite!!! Mind you, you need a big gob to get a samosa in in one bite too.
 
Nod said:
Cornish pasty. If you've got a big bite!!! Mind you, you need a big gob to get a samosa in in one bite too.
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I don't count that. it's clearly designed to be quite large in the first place, it is designed as a single meal in 1 envelope, otherwise a Beef Wellington is a dumpling. And I think large samosas are a British thing

When you buy dumplings you buy them in a plate / servings and you get half a dozen as well. Pasty is not of that concept.
 
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ihasa said:
The UK has dumplings but they're a different thing altogether - suety, puddingey blobs, or scone type things, floating in a stew.
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They call it a dumpling but it is missing the crucial part that it lacks a filling. I am still racking my brain and can't think of something that qualifies, something wrapped in pastry and bite size. It might be called something else, it just needs to be wrapped in pastry and bite size.
 
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It's easy enough to find bite size pasties and other pies. Not as slimy as some wontons either.
 
kendo1 said:
Scotch egg :)
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It's breadcrumbs outer. So no.

Nod said:
It's easy enough to find bite size pasties and other pies. Not as slimy as some wontons either.
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Name a traditional English dish that fits my discription, not just an invention now.

I can't think of any....can you?

It's so easy I can't think of any.

Small, bite size, pastry items with filling.
 
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Well my wife makes mini sausage and apple rolls in puff pastry that I can devour in one bite.
 
jam doughnut?
 
Raymond Lin said:
It's breadcrumbs outer. So no.



Name a traditional English dish that fits my discription, not just an invention now.

I can't think of any....can you?

It's so easy I can't think of any.

Small, bite size, pastry items with filling.
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Now you're being too picky :)
I can't think of any Scottish delicacies that fit your strict criteria offhand.
It does seem to be such an obvious way to cook.
 
Peter123 said:
Well my wife makes mini sausage and apple rolls in puff pastry that I can devour in one bite.
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I am sure we all can make something small today on our shores and make it qualify but as a traditional, well known dish.

Shedpard's pie, Fish and Chips, Sunday Roast and what not.

I don't think your wife's mini puff pastry qualifies, i am sure they are amazing too. It's not what I am talking about, I think we all know what I mean. All the items I mention, everyone makes them and when I say Gyoza, you know what that is, when I say Rivioli, you have an image.

When you say Cornish Pasty, you don't imagine a bite size one. If you ask for a Cornish Pasty and you get something the size of a thumb, you'd be annoyed.
 
kendo1 said:
Now you're being too picky :)
I can't think of any Scottish delicacies that fit your strict criteria offhand.
It does seem to be such an obvious way to cook.
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Not being picky at all, I clearly stated Pastry, not breadcrumbs since Gyoza, rivoli, samosa, Mandu and all sorts are pastry. Just keeping it consistent that's all.
 
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garibaldi biscuit? fig roll? plum duff (albeit not bite-sized)
 
Lindsay56 said:
garibaldi biscuit? fig roll? plum duff (albeit not bite-sized)
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If you can SEE the filling outside the pastry, no.
If it's a roll with open ends, no.
If it's not bite size, no.

So none of those.

Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.
 
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The thing is the term Dumpling isn't fixed to what you're specifying.
This is an interesting read.

The History of Dumplings

How did we ever get along without espresso? In the last ten years, it’s become easy to find a coffee shop on nearly every corner where you can find many of the countless combinations like cappuccinos and lattes that use espresso as their base. But long before Starbucks conquered mom-and-pop...
www.kitchenproject.com
 
robj20 said:
The thing is the term Dumpling isn't fixed to what you're specifying.
This is an interesting read.

The History of Dumplings

How did we ever get along without espresso? In the last ten years, it’s become easy to find a coffee shop on nearly every corner where you can find many of the countless combinations like cappuccinos and lattes that use espresso as their base. But long before Starbucks conquered mom-and-pop...
www.kitchenproject.com
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I know it isn't hence I keep saying Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

Name something that is Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

Hence I keep bringing up other examples.

Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.
Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.
Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

You can call it whatever you want. But name an English version of Pastry wrapping filling completely small bite size. That's it.

Help!
 
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Raymond Lin said:
I know it isn't hence I keep saying Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

Name something that is Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

Hence I keep bringing up other examples.

Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.
Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.
Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

You can call it whatever you want. But name an English version of Pastry wrapping filling completely small bite size. That's it.

Help!
Click to expand...
There is no generally known English equivalent of the thing you are describing (whether it's a dumpling or not is another matter).

[emoji846]

And with that said I will correct myself - the pork pie is pastry wrapped with the contents being cooked at the same time and is generally available in bite size format. Traditional? I remember seeing small ones made for parties when I was a kid 50 years ago.
 
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Raymond Lin said:
But name an English version of Pastry wrapping filling completely small bite size. That's it.

Help!
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We have but you keep moving the goalposts to suit yourself.

Loads of small pies available.
 
Nod said:
We have but you keep moving the goalposts to suit yourself.

Loads of small pies available.
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The goal post is the same.

Pastry, bite size, filling.

Think of a pie, traditional pie, not a modern M&S mini pork pie.

Pies, are not small. They are like a cornish pasty really, you eat them over several bites.

If you want me to move the goal post, it should not be baked as all the other "dumplings" really around the world are not baked, but i am adding that in just to see. They are all cooked on the hob, in a pot, pan etc in oil or water mostly. So the baked would be different to everyone else but for this exercise, i'd include that just to see if anyone know a dish that is like a "dumpling".
 
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I think that bite sized, stuffed Italian pasta meets the brief - Raviolo, Tortellini, Agnolotti, Panzotti etc. Years ago on a trip to France, we had an "Amuse bouche" in a restaurant - tiny appetisers before you order. They were Ferrero Rocher sized balls with a light pastry outer and a creamy, cheese interior. One delicious bite washed down with a glug of white Burgundy.
 
Raymond Lin said:
I know it isn't hence I keep saying Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

Name something that is Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

Hence I keep bringing up other examples.

Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.
Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.
Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

You can call it whatever you want. But name an English version of Pastry wrapping filling completely small bite size. That's it.

Help!
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So why the title "Does English cooking have a Dumpling?"

And the answer is yes, in many forms.
Stop moving the goal post.

If you read the link I posted this see stuffed dumplings are a thing and have been for a long time.
 
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robj20 said:
So why the title "Does English cooking have a Dumpling?"

And the answer is yes, in many forms.
Stop moving the goal post.
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You want me to put it in Quotes? I mean that's why there is a heading and then a body of text does it? to elaborate?

Okay i will. It is now in quotes.

The Goal Post is the same.

Bite Size.
Pastry all round.
Filling.
 
A dumpling is a very specific thing in the UK, as others have said, a blob of suet pastry cooked in a stew or soup. We don't just call it a dumpling... it is a dumpling! In English parlance, a filled dumpling is a pudding which is as quintessentially British as you can get. The man in the street would not view ravioli or a samosa as a dumpling. Or a pudding.

Why we like them big, I don't know - one school of thought is that the pudding grew from the dumpling. Perhaps there is a cultural reason we prefer our filled pastries to be large (other than the obvious portable, hand held, meal in one thing), but I don't think it is because we didn't think of doing them small. You get a much better filling to pastry ratio in a large pie, a fact not lost on the mini pie manufacturers. Chinese cooking for example tends very strongly to the bite size because they eat with chopsticks and possibly because small things cook more quickly, I have no idea what the Italian excuse is :-D

But small filled pastries have occurred in UK cuisine - for example this medieval recipe:

"Take figs & grind them small; do there-in saffron & powder fort. Close them in foils of dough, & fry them in oil. Clarify honey & baste them there-with; eat them hot or cold."

Or Hattes : Small meat-filled pastries that resemble medieval hats

Also Eccles cakes, which these days are effectively a dumpling filled with dried fruit, sweet, as are most of our small filled pastries. Once upon a time, fruit was commonly cooked with meat. Mince pies are a prime example which have lost their meat content, only the suet remains.

Maybe a revival is due?
 
Okay to repeat myself.

Question.
Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

Answer.
Yes a stuffed dumpling, see the link I posted.

But I'm guessing you change the goal post again and change exactly what "bite size" is.
 
Stegosaurus said:
A dumpling is a very specific thing in the UK, as others have said, a blob of suet pastry cooked in a stew or soup. We don't just call it a dumpling... it is a dumpling! In English parlance, a filled dumpling is a pudding which is as quintessentially British as you can get. The man in the street would not view ravioli or a samosa as a dumpling. Or a pudding.

Why we like them big, I don't know - one school of thought is that the pudding grew from the dumpling. Perhaps there is a cultural reason we prefer our filled pastries to be large (other than the obvious portable, hand held, meal in one thing), but I don't think it is because we didn't think of doing them small. You get a much better filling to pastry ratio in a large pie, a fact not lost on the mini pie manufacturers. Chinese cooking for example tends very strongly to the bite size because they eat with chopsticks and possibly because small things cook more quickly, I have no idea what the Italian excuse is :-D

But small filled pastries have occurred in UK cuisine - for example this medieval recipe:

"Take figs & grind them small; do there-in saffron & powder fort. Close them in foils of dough, & fry them in oil. Clarify honey & baste them there-with; eat them hot or cold."

Or Hattes : Small meat-filled pastries that resemble medieval hats

Also Eccles cakes, which these days are effectively a dumpling filled with dried fruit, sweet, as are most of our small filled pastries. Once upon a time, fruit was commonly cooked with meat. Mince pies are a prime example which have lost their meat content, only the suet remains.

Maybe a revival is due?
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I can't find most of the stuff you mentioned in Google, Hattes brings up nothing....but Eccles cakes...that's the nearest thing i guess.

The concept is more meat is an interesting idea, I would have thought the idea of more pastry and less meat would be preferred since carbs is easier to produce than meat and meat is more valuable. So the ratio of a smaller pastry is a way to get more full easier.

Still, I am baffled why there is not a "dumpling" dish around here, and let's not get into the semantics, when I say dumpling, you know what I mean, I mean Gyoza, Mandu, Ravioli. If I were to move the goal post tighter....a meal dish with meat (protein), in a bowl. Don't get angry, please, it's just an observation.

Saying that, boiling pastry isn't really a English, or British cooking thing I can see. it's mostly all baked? When I think of things go in a pot, it's meat, veg and potatoes. The "dumplings" that goes into a stew, there would be no reason to fill it as the pot already has the meat. It's interesting there is not a common dish that is the same as a ravioli. You take some pastry, fill it with mince and boil it. That's a dumpling, it's quick and easy to make even if you are poor living in a house without an oven. I would have thought some kind of recipe like this would stick around. Don't get angry, please, it's just an observation.
 
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robj20 said:
Okay to repeat myself.

Question.
Pastry wrapping filling completely, small bite size. That's it.

Answer.
Yes a stuffed dumpling, see the link I posted.

But I'm guessing you change the goal post again and change exactly what "bite size" is.
Click to expand...

You know what bite size is, you've seen a ravioli i am sure.
 
A Chorley cake might fit the bill better than an Eccles, because AFAIK they are traditionally(?) smaller than the Eccles cake........ though still not a single bite/mouthful :)
 
Whenever I see people making ravioli, dim sum etc I always think "that's a lot of work for what it is." Maybe that's why we don't have something similar? Also those two really lean on pasta to make their parcels.... pastry wouldn't work as well, floating in a stew it would disintegrate.

I did find this though: Apple Dumplings (greatbritishpuddings.com)
 
ihasa said:
The UK has dumplings but they're a different thing altogether - suety, puddingey blobs, or scone type things, floating in a stew.
Click to expand...
robj20 said:
So why the title "Does English cooking have a Dumpling?"
Click to expand...

This is what I know as a UK/Irish dumpling, it has always been a dumpling and it's the answer to the original post before edit changes

In ireland they're just made with flour and margarine, how they're cooked is most important. Floating in stew is the way, but if you don't slow cook them long enough they will turn to rocks, you want them soft and fluffy absorbing the stew.
 
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ihasa said:
Whenever I see people making ravioli, dim sum etc I always think "that's a lot of work for what it is." Maybe that's why we don't have something similar? Also those two really lean on pasta to make their parcels.... pastry wouldn't work as well, floating in a stew it would disintegrate.

I did find this though: Apple Dumplings (greatbritishpuddings.com)
Click to expand...

Yeah, pastry, the baking kind, won't work. Pasta/Noodles is the kind of dough you need. That though, still don't explain and I am sure the English as smart enough to change the ratio of flour to water to make it work.

I mean there isn't really an English version of noodles/pasta dish either? Not one that is popular enough that I have heard of anyway. It seems cooking in a pot would be the simplest way of cooking, you can do it on an open flame.
 
Raymond Lin said:
I can't find most of the stuff you mentioned in Google, Hattes brings up nothing....but Eccles cakes...that's the nearest thing i guess.

The concept is more meat is an interesting idea, I would have thought the idea of more pastry and less meat would be preferred since carbs is easier to produce than meat and meat is more valuable. So the ratio of a smaller pastry is a way to get more full easier.

Still, I am baffled why there is not a "dumpling" dish around here, and let's not get into the semantics, when I say dumpling, you know what I mean, I mean Gyoza, Mandu, Ravioli. If I were to move the goal post tighter....a meal dish with meat (protein), in a bowl. Don't get angry, please, it's just an observation.

Saying that, boiling pastry isn't really a English, or British cooking thing I can see. it's mostly all baked? When I think of things go in a pot, it's meat, veg and potatoes. The "dumplings" that goes into a stew, there would be no reason to fill it as the pot already has the meat. It's interesting there is not a common dish that is the same as a ravioli. You take some pastry, fill it with mince and boil it. That's a dumpling, it's quick and easy to make even if you are poor living in a house without an oven. I would have thought some kind of recipe like this would stick around. Don't get angry, please, it's just an observation.
Click to expand...

Perhaps because as British cooks were putting the dumpling in the stew (or soup), why would you put the stew in the dumpling? You didn't specify boiling before by the way. Of course we boil pastry. The only difference between the British boiled suet puddings and your continental alternatives is size.
 
ihasa said:
Whenever I see people making ravioli, dim sum etc I always think "that's a lot of work for what it is." Maybe that's why we don't have something similar? Also those two really lean on pasta to make their parcels.... pastry wouldn't work as well, floating in a stew it would disintegrate.

I did find this though: Apple Dumplings (greatbritishpuddings.com)
Click to expand...

I don't think lazy or too much challenge is the reason, that would be silly. There is no rule really to make it pretty, in fact making a Gyoza you can fold it whatever you like, a Ravioli you just use a cutter, you can have it straight if you want and cut it with a knife if you don't have a ridge cutter. Probably easier to make than other form of pasta.
 
Stegosaurus said:
Perhaps because as British cooks were putting the dumpling in the stew (or soup), why would you put the stew in the dumpling? You didn't specify boiling before by the way. Of course we boil pastry. The only difference between the British boiled suet puddings and your continental alternatives is size.
Click to expand...

I didn't specify boiling because i didn't want to limit the cooking method but when people (Around the world) talk about dumpling, they think of things like
Gyōza (Japan), Mandu (Korea), Pierogi (Poland), Xiaolonbao in China. I don't want the mix up between English Dumpling, which is a thing, and the word "Dumpling", using the describe Gyoza, Mandu, Ravioli etc. An Umbrella term for small fillings in pastry items. I didn't want to keep typing small bite size pastry with filling. But clearly I have to lol

Just to be clear, traditional English dumplings in a stew is not what i was thinking of. They are call dumplings, but as they do not have fillings, they are not "dumplings".
 
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Raymond Lin said:
I don't think lazy or too much challenge is the reason, that would be silly. There is no rule really to make it pretty, in fact making a Gyoza you can fold it whatever you like, a Ravioli you just use a cutter, you can have it straight if you want and cut it with a knife if you don't have a ridge cutter. Probably easier to make than other form of pasta.
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One reason might be that British wheat makes lousy pasta.
 
No mention yet of the very tasty Leberknödel or Liver Dumpling
Not British, but Northern European as opposed to Oriental in origin
 
How is ravioli classified as a "dumpling" in your list as it is not pastry but pasta?

The answer to your question is no, there is no British equivalent of dim sum.
 
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