Does English cooking have a "Dumpling"? aka, anything that is pastry wrapped 360 with filling and bite size. Cornish pasty need not apply.

Bebop said:
samosas are deep fried aren't they - would you call them pastry? Ravioli is pasta isn't it, not pastry?

I can see there are some heated arguments in here :oops: :$
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They are but the concept is still dough outside wrapped around a filling (more than a sprinkle of parsley).

I was trying to widen the search, if I were to be really strict then it would have to be like a Pasta/Noodle type dough and can only be cooked on a hob, either fried, boiled or steamed. But then obviously that means it’s a no to my question. It is interesting that even with the widened criteria, still can’t think of anything. A Pasty is simply too large, by design a pasty is made that a single piece to be filling, especially the Cornish Pasty. That’s intentional to be a meal on the go in 1 piece, hence the size. As opposed to many smaller pieces like when you order Ravioli.
 
Marc said:
So the answer to Raymond's question is no. Only on talk Photography could it take 80+ replies to get there! :ROFLMAO:
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Pics, or it didn't happen.
 
Raymond Lin said:
Are you reading the same thing i am?

Small pieces of dough? I am talking about Bite Sized, would you call something as large as a 12" pizza small pieces of dough?

It says in your definition that it can be incorporated into the dough, but I am asking does anyone know a dish that has it as a filling inside. That's all.
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They are wrong, the clue is that they are chefs not cooks. Dumplings are suety wodges dropped in to stews. I agree the English word dumpling has been appropriated to describe something different but superficially similar in the way it is cooked, ie a lump of something dropped into water, but that is precisely because English did not currently have a word for that :(.
 
Maybe we don’t have those because we have fritters which are much simpler to make and vastly superior to what you describe, particularly because they are fried not boiled ... ugh! They can be sweet or savoury. And of course there is the fritto misto which is even better.
 
Also in the dumpling category, ie more like English suet dumplings are gnocchi (potato & flour) spätzle (egg & flour) and passatelli (breadcrumbs, egg & parmigiano), though they are often called pasta they are more like small dumplings as I will claim to know as I have made both spätzle & passatelli in the past year, never cared for gnocchi though.
 
The earliest use of the word Dumpling was in Britain in the 1600's and thought to be derived from a German word and was the name given to the lumps of suet added to stews to make up for a lack of meat. For whatever reason the name dumpling was also given to foods from other countries. So what a man in China came up with 1400 yrs earlier was known by a different name. The original Chinese dumpling was a means of herbal medication and be filling to keep the body warm, just as the use of suet does in English dumplings, except any herbs would have been added to the stew instead. So the English would have no need to make a bite size food parcel, if you want, you can take two slices of bread, put what ever you like between the two slices and stick it in a sandwich toaster. ;)
 
sphexx said:
They are wrong, the clue is that they are chefs not cooks. Dumplings are suety wodges dropped in to stews. I agree the English word dumpling has been appropriated to describe something different but superficially similar in the way it is cooked, ie a lump of something dropped into water, but that is precisely because English did not currently have a word for that :(.
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The English appropriated their own word in English to describe something.

The English language does have a word for it, it seems we have settled for the word Dumpling, the problem is some people can't seem to get their brain round to see it in both ways, even when pointed out with description and explanation. It's like the word "mouse" can mean the animal and the object you use to control your computer. (because it looked like one with a tail(the cable). You might be confused on its own but you shouldn't be when you know the context, especially when described many many many times. The problem here isn't the word, it's people can't get their brains around, even when described, in the title, then the opening post, then repeatedly, many times over.

You don't need another word to describe Dumpling like you don't need another word to describe Mouse or Watch etc.
 
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Raymond Lin said:
The English appropriated their own word in English to describe something.

The English language does have a word for it, it seems we have settled for the word Dumpling, the problem is some people can't seem to get their brain round to see it in both ways, even when pointed out with description and explanation. It's like the word "mouse" can mean the animal and the object you use to control your computer. (because it looked like one with a tail(the cable). You might be confused on its own but you shouldn't be when you know the context, especially when described many many many times. The problem here isn't the word, it's people can't get their brains around, even when described, in the title, then the opening post, then repeatedly, many times over.

You don't need another word to describe Dumpling like you don't need another word to describe Mouse or Watch etc.
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:). One problem is that you chose to define a dumpling as “bite-sized“ and “stuffed” and the common English (can’t speak for Scots etc) dumpling is not bite sized or stuffed. However ”wrapped” was certainly common in the recent past.

George Orwell wrote in 1946:
One of the best forms of suet pudding is the boiled apple dumpling. The core is removed from a large apple, the cavity is filled up with brown sugar, and the apple is covered all over with a thin layer of suet crust, tied tightly into a cloth, and boiled. :

www.britishcouncil.org

George Orwell: British Cookery | British Council

George Orwell's rejected 1946 essay for the British Council on British cookery
www.britishcouncil.org www.britishcouncil.org

The caption to this cartoon is Hay? hay? apple dumplings? - how get the apples in? -how? Are they made without seams? — showing there are no holes or seams:
commons.wikimedia.org

File:English Caricaturists, 1893 - Lesson in Apple Dumplings.png - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org commons.wikimedia.org
 
sphexx said:
:). One problem is that you chose to define a dumpling as “bite-sized“ and “stuffed” and the common English (can’t speak for Scots etc) dumpling is not bite sized or stuffed. However ”wrapped” was certainly common in the recent past.

George Orwell wrote in 1946:
One of the best forms of suet pudding is the boiled apple dumpling. The core is removed from a large apple, the cavity is filled up with brown sugar, and the apple is covered all over with a thin layer of suet crust, tied tightly into a cloth, and boiled. :

www.britishcouncil.org

George Orwell: British Cookery | British Council

George Orwell's rejected 1946 essay for the British Council on British cookery
www.britishcouncil.org www.britishcouncil.org

The caption to this cartoon is Hay? hay? apple dumplings? - how get the apples in? -how? Are they made without seams? — showing there are no holes or seams:
commons.wikimedia.org

File:English Caricaturists, 1893 - Lesson in Apple Dumplings.png - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org commons.wikimedia.org
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The word bite size is to give further clarification and when I give examples like Gyoza etc you should have no question at all the things I am looking for. There really isn't and shouldn't be any debate on the word dumpling, at all. I am, or was, looking for this special size, and type of dumplings - bite size with fillings, wrapped all round. Everything else that doesn't fit, not what i am looking for. Ergo...plain dough with no fillings, not what i am looking for and thus the whole conversation of whether they count as dumpling is entirely redundant, because they are not what i am looking for, because they fail at the "fillings" part.

I tried to give clarification on it, many many times. An Apple....not bite size, not your typical apple anyway! Unless you have a big mouth.
 
Raymond Lin said:
The word bite size is to give further clarification and when I give examples like Gyoza etc you should have no question at all the things I am looking for. There really isn't and shouldn't be any debate on the word dumpling, at all. I am, or was, looking for this special size, and type of dumplings - bite size with fillings, wrapped all round. Everything else that doesn't fit, not what i am looking for. Ergo...plain dough with no fillings, not what i am looking for and thus the whole conversation of whether they count as dumpling is entirely redundant, because they are not what i am looking for, because they fail at the "fillings" part.

I tried to give clarification on it, many many times. An Apple....not bite size, not your typical apple anyway! Unless you have a big mouth.
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I think you ought to stop using the term dumpling. A dumpling is as already explained a lump of suet that was added to stews and the first evidence of use of the word was in 1600. What you are looking for was obviously known by other names, but somehow been named Dumplings at some point in the last 400 years.
There isn't an English pastry wrapped food, bite size or larger that gets boiled or fried. Anything like that, large or small is baked.
 
Raymond Lin said:
even when described, in the title, then the opening post, then repeatedly, many times over.
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And how many times have you moved the goalposts by editing posts and even the thread title?
 
Nod said:
And how many times have you moved the goalposts by editing posts and even the thread title?
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I edited the title ONCE, after your first reply and not since.

You can see the date of when the edit was done.

The goal post has always been small, bite size with fillings, I stated pastry, but if you want to WIDEN it to just dough, that's fine. Still, with all the widening to be more inclusive (as opposed to narrowing), the test still fails.

Please stop accusing me of moving the goal post, the goal post is very clear. Don't blame me when you can't comprehend the question. When I ediit a post, like this one I am doing, I am putting MORE CLARIFICATION into it, because otherwise you accuse me of moving the goal post. The goal post has never moved. It's very clear. It's in the OP, always have.
 
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Raymond Lin said:
The word bite size is to give further clarification and when I give examples like Gyoza etc you should have no question at all the things I am looking for. There really isn't and shouldn't be any debate on the word dumpling, at all. I am, or was, looking for this special size, and type of dumplings - bite size with fillings, wrapped all round. Everything else that doesn't fit, not what i am looking for. Ergo...plain dough with no fillings, not what i am looking for and thus the whole conversation of whether they count as dumpling is entirely redundant, because they are not what i am looking for, because they fail at the "fillings" part.

I tried to give clarification on it, many many times. An Apple....not bite size, not your typical apple anyway! Unless you have a big mouth.
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That’s OK, it was your question so you’re entitled to ask it how you want. I’m just saying most of those “bite-sized” “dumplings” are nut U.K. origin so it’s unlikely their real name in local languages is “dumpling”. “Dumplings” in U.K. are never (I think) bite-sized, though maybe there are such things. Not sure why this is important though and you haven’t said, I think, why you asked the question :(.
 
I even put the word DUMPLING in quotes, unless I need to explain, I did that because I know FULL well there is an English dish call dumpling with just dough.

Hence the quote. Yet, the debate of whether that was my intent was questioned.

Fine. That's why I gave the examples of Gyoza, Ravioli etc as the kind of dumplings I am looking for, NOT THE ENGLISH KIND.

Yet people keep bringing up the topic of English Dumplings and then accuse me of moving the goal post.

Fine.

I explained in many many posts that is NOT WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR,

Honestly, by this point if you don't know that's not what I am looking for, the problem isn't the English language don't have a specific word. The problem is your comprehension skill and try to blame it on me.

sphexx said:
That’s OK, it was your question so you’re entitled to ask it how you want. I’m just saying most of those “bite-sized” “dumplings” are not U.K. origin so it’s unlikely their real name in local languages is “dumpling”. “Dumplings” in U.K. are never (I think) bite-sized, though maybe there are such things. Not sure why this is important though and you haven’t said, I think, why you asked the question :(.
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I know the local languages of other dumplings, that's why I gave the local languages name in order to give you guys an idea, an example of cooking, a dish that i am looking for.

I am looking for X item that is similar to Gyoza. Is that clear? But somehow when I say "I am looking for bite size, filling with pastry", it confuses you, then still confused after all the explanation. I did the latter just in case people don't know what a Gyoza is.

The reason I ask is that the idea of wrapping something (a filling) in dough in small pieces is a simple idea and such an idea is adapted all around the world from Japanese to Italian to Polish, i noticed that there isn't such in these shores and I wonder whether it is my lack of culinary knowledge or does it simply not exist.

But people went on to debate whether i meant English Dumplings....when I know i am not looking for that and explained why and started, right at the beginning, with the quotation marks.
 
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Just take your ball away - we're bored of playing football with rackets on water.
 
Nod said:
Just take your ball away - we're bored of playing football with rackets on water.
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FYI,

Point 1 - It was @sphexx who replied after a week of inactivity in this thread, again, stop blaming me.
Point 2 - I started this thread, it's my ball, if you are bored, don't post in this thread, stop blaming me.
Point 3 - Stop blaming other people when you can't comprehend the question in hand.
 
Raymond Lin said:
I even put the word DUMPLING in quotes, unless I need to explain, I did that because I know FULL well there is an English dish call dumpling with just dough.

Hence the quote. Yet, the debate of whether that was my intent was questioned.

Fine. That's why I gave the examples of Gyoza, Ravioli etc as the kind of dumplings I am looking for, NOT THE ENGLISH KIND.

Yet people keep bringing up the topic of English Dumplings and then accuse me of moving the goal post.

Fine.

I explained in many many posts that is NOT WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR,

Honestly, by this point if you don't know that's not what I am looking for, the problem isn't the English language don't have a specific word. The problem is your comprehension skill and try to blame it on me.



I know the local languages of other dumplings, that's why I gave the local languages name in order to give you guys an idea, an example of cooking, a dish that i am looking for.

I am looking for X item that is similar to Gyoza. Is that clear? But somehow when I say "I am looking for bite size, filling with pastry", it confuses you, then still confused after all the explanation. I did the latter just in case people don't know what a Gyoza is.

The reason I ask is that the idea of wrapping something (a filling) in dough in small pieces is a simple idea and such an idea is adapted all around the world from Japanese to Italian to Polish, i noticed that there isn't such in these shores and I wonder whether it is my lack of culinary knowledge or does it simply not exist.

But people went on to debate whether i meant English Dumplings....when I know i am not looking for that and explained why and started, right at the beginning, with the quotation marks.
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Have you even read the posts? Dumplings are just a lump of suet added to stews and are English (British). The word Dumpling is thought to have been derived from an old German word meaning lump.
Ravioli etc., that you keep mentioning, aren't dumplings, they have just adopted the name in the last 400yrs.
Dumplings never originally had fillings, but fillungs can and have been used. The size of dumplings can vary, I haven't had dumplings in over 40 years, probably nearer 50 years before I was a teenager. My mum and her mum used to make them and to a 10yr old they were two maybe three bites big, to an adult, they would probably have been a large mouthful if you didn't want to put something else from your plate in your mouth at the same time.
Anything else is a pie.
 
nilagin said:
Have you even read the posts? Dumplings are just a lump of suet added to stews and are English (British). The word Dumpling is thought to have been derived from an old German word meaning lump.
Ravioli etc., that you keep mentioning, aren't dumplings, they have just adopted the name in the last 400yrs.
Dumplings never originally had fillings, but fillungs can and have been used. The size of dumplings can vary, I haven't had dumplings in over 40 years, probably nearer 50 years before I was a teenager. My mum and her mum used to make them and to a 10yr old they were two maybe three bites big, to an adult, they would probably have been a large mouthful if you didn't want to put something else from your plate in your mouth at the same time.
Anything else is a pie.
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Again, I use the word DUMPLINGS because.

Cnb5qXd.png


And I had to CALL IT SOMETHING, and YET people keep bringing it back to the English dish and whether that is what i am looking for.
 
and

en.wikipedia.org

Dumpling - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

"
Italian

Ravioli and tortellini fit the basic definition of a dumpling: these are pockets of pasta enclosing various fillings (cheese, mushrooms, spinach, seafood, or meat). Instead of being made from a ball of dough, the dough is rolled flat, cut into a shape, filled with other ingredients, and then the dough is closed around the filling."

And yes, I have read the sentence of Gnocchi, but i am not looking for these, I am looking for fillings.

Again, FILLINGS.

How many times...fillings.
 
If your reply is to do with the 2nd part of the first sentence in wiki page about "no filling"....

I am looking for a dish that HAS FILLINGS.

Really, I am looking for an English dish of dumplings (broad term), that has fillings.

Am I saying it wrong? Why is it okay for the rest of the English speaking world to use the word dumplings but not me? Especially with explanations, examples and descriptions?
 
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Instead of edit - because NOD will accuse me of moving the goal post, so I will just write a new post.

Yes I know English Dumplings is listed in the Wiki page, and precisely why I asked, it only list the 100% dough kind, not the filling kind.

I am looking for the filling kind.

Am I clear? With fillings? It's in the Title...
 
Raymond Lin said:
Instead of edit - because NOD will accuse me of moving the goal post, so I will just write a new post.

Yes I know English Dumplings is listed in the Wiki page, and precisely why I asked, it only list the 100% dough kind, not the filling kind.

I am looking for the filling kind.

Am I clear? With fillings? It's in the Title...
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I’m not interested in contradicting you but you are complaining about us focussing on English dumplings when it was in your original question. I agree the word dumpling has been applied to all sorts of exotic food but the the English it means something different usually if it’s not qualified in some way and it also conjures up the idea of a lump or wodge and fairly solid in general non-food usage. If the English do something a bit similar they make fritters or perhaps stuffed pancakes.

A lot of world cuisines have changed vastly since, say, 1500. Before that the non American world had no tomatoes, potatoes and so on.

Most people would think the tomato was an essential ingredient of Italian cooking but clearly it wasn’t before 1492 (I don’t know when it arrived in Italy) and many Italians still think it shouldn’t be included in traditional recipes.
 
Raymond Lin said:
Instead of edit - because NOD will accuse me of moving the goal post, so I will just write a new post.

Yes I know English Dumplings is listed in the Wiki page, and precisely why I asked, it only list the 100% dough kind, not the filling kind.

I am looking for the filling kind.

Am I clear? With fillings? It's in the Title...
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Anything with a filling isn't a dumpling. They are just other "things" that have somehow adopted the use of the word. Ravioli is just Ravioli, it isn't a dumpling.
Anything the English made with fillings would have been a pie and would have been baked not boiled or fried.
I am not even sure if Fritters could even be classed as English. Tunisians have a traditional dish similar to fritters, which contains a runny egg, called a Brick (sp).
 
BTW, going back to your original question, it is mildly interesting that the U.K. , which is very big on pastry of all sorts, doesn’t have anything precisely like you describe.

Most (all?) of our pastries (pies, tarts etc) are baked. It could be the early adoption of coal fired domestic oven in the industrial revolution is a factor, killing off the ubiquitous cast-iron cauldron that preceded it. Prior to that baked goods were taken to the local baker to be cooked after the bread was removed, in the cooling oven.

Outside of U.K. I only have direct experience of Italy where domestic ovens were still a bit new in the 1960s (other than sometimes a pizza oven in the ”undercroft” In some areas.
 
nilagin said:
I am not even sure if Fritters could even be classed as English.
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Come now, what about the Spam Fritters that won WW2 -- the Nazis were afraid they’d have to eat them and so delayed the invasion until it was too late :).? Rather appropriate to this thread :).

However, seriously, I was raised on Apple Fritters (fresh Apple segments dipped in pancake batter ans sprinkled with sugar).
 
This should maybe be moved to the Hot Topics section :rolleyes:

unless there is a cold version...

The only things that come to mind are some canapes.
 
sphexx said:
Come now, what about the Spam Fritters that won WW2 -- the Nazis were afraid they’d have to eat them and so delayed the invasion until it was too late :).? Rather appropriate to this thread :).

However, seriously, I was raised on Apple Fritters (fresh Apple segments dipped in pancake batter ans sprinkled with sugar).
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I preferred banana or pineapple.
 
sphexx said:
BTW, going back to your original question, it is mildly interesting that the U.K. , which is very big on pastry of all sorts, doesn’t have anything precisely like you describe.

Most (all?) of our pastries (pies, tarts etc) are baked. It could be the early adoption of coal fired domestic oven in the industrial revolution is a factor, killing off the ubiquitous cast-iron cauldron that preceded it. Prior to that baked goods were taken to the local baker to be cooked after the bread was removed, in the cooling oven.

Outside of U.K. I only have direct experience of Italy where domestic ovens were still a bit new in the 1960s (other than sometimes a pizza oven in the ”undercroft” In some areas.
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YES, EXACTLY!!!! now you get it.
 
Tigger.ufo said:
No need to shout!

All you need to do is take "dumpling" out of the title ...
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Why? The rest of the world understands what I mean. Plus I didn't choose to use the word Dumpling as a broad term, other people did before me, Even if you didn't, the 2nd part of the title should at least give you a clue if not explain it totally.

If not, the title post itself should.
 
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kendo1 said:
I preferred banana or pineapple.
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Many, many decades ago I went to a party where the food was "lucky dip" fritters. Spam, banana and pineapple were there but so were apple, orange (very squishy) and some kind of fish. I wasn't taken with the latter but then I'm not a fan of most pescatarian delicacies.
 
Is it April 1st? I honestly can't believe that a poxy dumpling could have generated this much bad feeling and ridiculous argument :D :D :D :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::LOL::LOL::LOL:
 
Tigger.ufo said:
But you are asking on a British website!
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And the 2nd part of my Title "anything that is pastry wrapped 360 with filling and bite size. Cornish pasty need not apply."

That doesn't mean anything to you? I am sure that is in English.

You know, I actually wrote a reply similar to what you just said, I deleted it because I thought I explained it already.

1 - I put the word dumplings in quotes because I know people will confused it with the English dish.
2 - So I further clarified it with Bite Size, With Fillings + pastry.

At this point you should know what I mean is not the English Dumpling.

If you didn't then I gave examples in the post - Gyoza, Pot stickers, Ravioli.

What do these have in common? Fillings.

If you still can't picture it in your head and get around your head that I don't mean the English version dumpling. And you should know Dumplings includes many other kinds besides the English kind, like a mouse is a mouse (computer) and an animal.

Seriously, how is that unclear?
 
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