Donna Nook - 21st/22nd November

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BobbyBlue / Peter,

Excellent couple of post (y) ... I've not been up there, but it is one of the places I regret not visiting; and now I am glad that I haven't.

A question with regards to proximity, as this thread is specific to seals ... how close is too close? When should someone stop getting any closer? A ball-park figure would be helpful, if possible.

Again, excellent posts .. if you both don't mind, may I make a print and this as a general guide for other wildlife stuff that I shoot (when I have a group with me)?
 
BobbyBlue / Peter,

Excellent couple of post (y) ... I've not been up there, but it is one of the places I regret not visiting; and now I am glad that I haven't.

A question with regards to proximity, as this thread is specific to seals ... how close is too close? When should someone stop getting any closer? A ball-park figure would be helpful, if possible.

Again, excellent posts .. if you both don't mind, may I make a print and this as a general guide for other wildlife stuff that I shoot (when I have a group with me)?

Thanks Wail,

You can certainly use my post. I am glad to have been of use.

As for how close is too close, BobbyBlue is right; it is impossible to give an exact figure. If the seals are constantly looking at you, then you are too close. This really depends upon the seal - some reach this stage at 30m, others 5m. It is something for the photographer to judge for themselves.

Also, remember that seals have eyes on the side of their heads! They can be looking at you even when their head is not pointing at you.

Two last pieces of advice I forgot to include, which comes under the section of making yourself less threatening.

1) Dont look straight at the seals. Predators throughout the animal kingdom almost all have two eyes on the front of their head. If you do need to look at the seals, do it out of the corner of your eye or close one eye so you do not look like a predator looking straight at the seal.

2) Do not crawl straight towards the seals. Head at an angle to them so the seal does not feel it has to move out of your way.

Regards,

Peter
 
I think this needs saying some people are saying they now will not visit i think this is wrong my reason for saying this is if you dont visit you are depriving the trust and the seal sanctuary of donations and without these funds more seals will suffer there is a viewing area on the edge of the dunes that is warden patroled and fenced you can easily get some shots there with no problem i will post some on the animal and nature forum today or tomorrow so you can see. Please just use common sense and use the advice in the last few posts above this one.
Regards
Lost
 
Be very aware that lying flat on the ground is a Seals natural position & they can move faster than you think. You can be happily thinking that you are "in harmony" with the animal & they can either take a dislike to you or a Seal / Person behind you.

Be sure you can get up & move backwards when this happens.....

male.jpg



The male was happy & filled a LOT less of the frame when I started shooting :LOL:
 
I'm only reading as far as page 1 of this thread....

[staff edit] In that case the rest of your post is irrelevant
 
I'd recommend you read the whole post ;)
 
If you are not going to take the time to read the thread then why should we have to read your misinformed ramblings?
 
As for the information posts, good work chaps, I don't know what's right or wrong other than common sense but perhaps you can agree to combine the information into one post. Now we've got some good guidelines there's no point having them stuck on page6 of a thread. Perhaps one of the mod's will step in with a way of helping to distribute this information among the forum members.
 
I've already made it clear that there is no need for this thread to go back over old ground. As such I've edited / removed a few posts - again :bang:

Tikkathreebarrels - to make a statement like that on a 6 page thread is a little naive, to say the least. Perhaps you'd like to read the whole thread and then see if you have a worthwhile post to make :)
 
Perhaps one of the mod's will step in with a way of helping to distribute this information among the forum members.

Working on that at the moment Kev :)
 
Good work Paul, you've earnt yourself an extra jaffa cake at tea-break(y)
 
BobbyBlue / Peter,

Excellent couple of post (y) ... I've not been up there, but it is one of the places I regret not visiting; and now I am glad that I haven't.

A question with regards to proximity, as this thread is specific to seals ... how close is too close? When should someone stop getting any closer? A ball-park figure would be helpful, if possible.

Again, excellent posts .. if you both don't mind, may I make a print and this as a general guide for other wildlife stuff that I shoot (when I have a group with me)?

No worries about using my post, glad to be of help :)
 
hello TP,

I am glad to see that this is a topic that is still thought about and discussed, I was the PHD student Grumpybadger mentioned from last year, I surveyed the entire colony for a month and a bit in 2008 and am dong the same this year.

I only became aware of this thread because one of the wardens told me about it, I am not an active member here by any stretch of the imagination. However, I do know a little bit about seals, and quite frankly some of the photos on this thread are extremely worrying. We no longer survey the beach colony site because of the high levels of disturbance from photographers, so I personally have not been out there this year, but all my experiences of it last year did nothing but errode my faith in the decency of fellow photographers.

Education is certainly the way forward, but getting people to listen remains a difficult hurdle to overcome. People often believe what they want to about their behaviour and its effects on the seals, and will not be persuaded otherwise. This is not the case for everyone, but many poeple who the wardens have talked to do not believe the information they are being told and act exactly the same after talking to them. People can also be very confrontational, which does not make the voluenteer wardens jobs any easier.

Just a few points on the seals themselves, it is not true that those born on the beach colony are doomed to death. Seal pups can swim from a very early age, I have seen 10 day old pups swimming perfectly well, so they are not all going to drown. Also, the seals on this beach colony are, in all likelyhood, choosing to be on the beach colony because it does not have people visiting it during the week, and therefore are more disturbed when the tourists come in at the weekend. they are not habituated to human presence like those on the dunes colony. Seals return to the same place, often within meters, of where they pupped previously, so it is not a case of 'they couldn't make it to the dunes colony to give birth' in the huge majority of cases.

Finally, I am amazed that no one has been bitten getting that close to the seals. One day, someone will be and it will not be pleasent. Seals have a lot of teeth, can move very fast on land and carry zoonotic diseases that can kill you if untreated (Seal finger). Pups can also bite, they are born with a full set of teeth.

For reference, here are a list of behviours seal exhibit when disturbed, going through to when they are threatened:

1. Raises head and looks in the direction of disturbance, if the seal rolls so it is on its belly and stretches its head and neck high to look at you then it is calculating whether or not to bolt/act aggressivley.

2. Moaning, females often moan at things they feel threatened by, if a seal is doing this at you she is not happy with how close you are. Reduce your profile by kneeling and back away. If a male is hissing at you this means the same thing.

3. Open mouth threat, a seal will also often moan/hiss while doing this. This is a really big warning sign, and it preceeds striking when seals do it to each other. You are definatly too close if a seal is doing this to you, and if it is an aggressive individual it may try and bite. Pups also open mouth threat and bite.

4. Flippering, waving a flipper rapidly in the air, usually only seen if the seal is actaully physcially fighting with another, if this is happening you are definatly too close and are probebly about to be bitten.

I hope this helps people unfamiliar with seals to recognise the signs of disturbance, I will be on the dunes colony tomorrow, and the survey will continue until mid december. I hope that anyone visiting DN acts in a sensible way, for the seals and your own safety.
 
Thanks for the input Shadow and Flame. Sorry, I couldn't remember who made the comment last year just the context.

The behaviour stuff is very useful.

All I can add is that, like in all walks of life, there are different attitudes from different photographers.
 
BobbyBlue / Peter,
Nice posts they give some good advice on how to do it. Thanks Shadow for the info on what changes in them to look out for as to not cause any stress to them. Pete that is good advice for any place to go wetlands or anyware all animals get spooked in one way or another.

Thanks for the advice guys i will learn from them.

Wayne
 
As remarked & advised now knowing more about the behavioural characteristics of the seals I now wonder if groups attending that area need to be:-

1) Smaller
2) Allowed in to sandbank colony area under more controled conditions
3) That togs need to move in twos in speaking distance range
3a) Why, as mutual protection/support ~ I am thinking of this because I saw on at least a couple of occassions random 1's & 2's togs walking directly towards adults. In one instance a mother & pup (nose to nose) I was photographing from what I believed to be a proper distance suddenly changed what they were doing ~ i.e. the mother rose up and appeared to be looking behind where I was kneeling. It did not occur to me at that time to look round and see what had caught her attention. My approach to that position had been carefull & considerate of noting any possible recation to my being there and I was static for a good many minutes as I took my pictures and observed/enjoyed the interaction of the pair ~ at no point that I can recall did she make a noise or the open gape 'gesture'.

IMO we are privileged to be tolerated in their "lounge" and to restate what everyone agrees with any disturbance or potential for it should be kept to a minimum. In hindsight I sincerely hope my movements around the area were of zero/minmal impact especially so in regard to the pups and nursing mothers.
 
Finally, I am amazed that no one has been bitten getting that close to the seals. One day, someone will be and it will not be pleasent. Seals have a lot of teeth, can move very fast on land and carry zoonotic diseases that can kill you if untreated (Seal finger). Pups can also bite, they are born with a full set of teeth.

Sounds nasty, seal finger.


Until about 30 years ago, amputation of the offending finger was the accepted cure for a disease called spekk-finger (blubber-finger), by Norwegian sealers. In Alaska and elsewhere, the disease is called sealer's finger or seal finger.

Seal finger occurs only among those who handle seals. According to medical doctors Elizabeth F. Elsner and James R. Crook, of the University of Alaska, the exact nature of the infectious agent is unknown. Doctors have conjectured that a bacteria is involved, but the specific organism has not been isolated.

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF3/335.html

Some nasty diseases.

Zoonoses and veterinary public health (VPH)

Any disease and/or infection which is naturally "transmissible from vertebrate animals to man" is classified as a zoonosis according to the PAHO publication "Zoonoses and communicable diseases common to man and animals". Over 200 zoonoses have been described and they are known since many centuries. They involve all types of agents: bacteria, parasites, viruses and unconventional agents.

http://www.who.int/zoonoses/en/
 
ive been watching the thread but not interjected, i havent been to donna nook nor have any experience with seals, so ive just read. But the thing that keeps coming back to me is why are photographers aloud to get to the animals if they are likely to disturb them? Surely it would make sense to just keep them off the beach for the time that the seals are having pups(or whatever its called?)
 
Just out of interest, i was wondering if any of you watched this weeks Life on BBC1?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00p1n00/Life_Hunters_and_Hunted/

Skip forward to 49 minutes.

I have not double checked, but I am pretty sure you are referring to the section on filming Californian Sealions.

Californian Sealions are not only different species to grey seals but are in an entirely different family. As someone with a marine biology degree you should appreciate how different taxonomic families are from each other.

Just out of interest would you treat a lemur the same way you would treat a human?

Regards,

Peter
 
ive been watching the thread but not interjected, i havent been to donna nook nor have any experience with seals, so ive just read. But the thing that keeps coming back to me is why are photographers aloud to get to the animals if they are likely to disturb them? Surely it would make sense to just keep them off the beach for the time that the seals are having pups(or whatever its called?)

Something to do with the RAF. Aparently they want to keep it open to the public. If we keep this to reality we are refering to one or two photographers out of thousands who visit. I take my daughter who is four and she loves seeing the seals in their habitat. Its a great lesson in life but we, as her parents teach her how to act. I think to stop the massive majority because of the few would be devastating. The answer is to police those few but then there are probably not any laws as such that they are breaking, just what is morally right / wrong

stew
 
Great set of advice from BobbyBlue there. Thanks for that.

I'm a big believer at DN on travelling light, not changing lenses and keeping distance. I will only be taking a 400 prime on a 1.6 crop body on my next trip. For me, low and distant tends to be a more pleasing picture than higher and close anyway.
Agreed. I've only ever been twice, the last time was with a 600 and a 1.4x

I decided to give it a miss this year as I've read quite a few times that there have been too many photographers around and doing things they shouldn't. I might give it a go next year but for this year, I'm giving them some extra space :)
 
I have not double checked, but I am pretty sure you are referring to the section on filming Californian Sealions.

Californian Sealions are not only different species to grey seals but are in an entirely different family. As someone with a marine biology degree you should appreciate how different taxonomic families are from each other.

Just out of interest would you treat a lemur the same way you would treat a human?

Regards,

Peter

I was just showing that they do get rather close.

But before you start bandying around big terms, they are elephant seals, so still of the Phocid family - closer than you think. Californian Sea Lions are Otariids - difference being that they have external pinna (ears) and can change the orientation of their rear flippers for land movement among other things (neck structure etc).

A lemur and a human are quite a bit different.(y)
I just wanted to show that the "professionals" do get rather close to the pups as well. I'm not trying to convince you that what i did was different to how you already perceive it, but enlighten you as to what else is going on. No need to react quite so aggressively towards the post.
 
Agreed. I've only ever been twice, the last time was with a 600 and a 1.4x

I decided to give it a miss this year as I've read quite a few times that there have been too many photographers around and doing things they shouldn't. I might give it a go next year but for this year, I'm giving them some extra space :)

A lovely sentiment, but i can only see it getting busier as time goes by and the site gets more publicity. After reading through all this, you are clearly going to be considerate towards the seals, so I wouldn't deny yourself the opportunity whilst it is still there.
 
Okay, so I have now read through all seven pages of this thread, to #185, and would like to try again.

My first posting, since edited, was intended to respond to the original post and if there was any emotion in my post it was simply exasperation that "here we go again" at Donna Nook. Surely responding to the OP in any thread is neither "wrong" or "irrelevant"?

At that stage I was not aware of the various photographs posted in subsequent pages. I hope that lessons will be learned: I have no axe to grind, no points to score. I have nothing to add.

I am not qualified to comment on seal physiology & behaviour. Do the monday-friday activities of the RAF cause distress to the seals? I don't know and I keep an open mind.

Similarly my guess is that we are wrong to presume or hope that every seal pup is going to wean succesfully; nature doesn't work that way and there will always be some death through natural causes. I do not, for one second, suggest that this would legitimise the harrassment of "abandoned" pups.

I regard myself simply as a novice hobby photographer and will continue to do so until such time as I leave home for the day with taking photographs as my primary aim. This doesn't lessen my opinion.
 
ive been watching the thread but not interjected, i havent been to donna nook nor have any experience with seals, so ive just read. But the thing that keeps coming back to me is why are photographers aloud to get to the animals if they are likely to disturb them? Surely it would make sense to just keep them off the beach for the time that the seals are having pups(or whatever its called?)

I'm with matty and to be honest if anyone REALLY wanted to ensure that the seals are not stressed in any way then they would stay away off their own back.

All this rolling towards them and singing is all well and good but you are still encroaching on their personal space :shrug:

I appreciate that people are going to go if they are allowed to and the more consideration to how you go about getting your shots the better - but I can't help being a bit confused by the holier than thou attitude that some people are demonstrating. If you are there then you are by default part of the problem of photographers appearing en mass...

Has anyone considered getting in touch with the volunteer wardens and asking them what would be helpful? One idea I had is if there are any further TP organised visits over a weekend people could spend their time between getting their shots and helping to educate the other visitors i.e. take it in turns each day wandering around for a couple of hours with flyers or laminates showing what to do and what not to do? You don't want to tread on the wardens toes but I'm sure if they are asked they could come up with some practical ideas.
 
Okay, so I have now read through all seven pages of this thread, to #185, and would like to try again.

My first posting, since edited, was intended to respond to the original post and if there was any emotion in my post it was simply exasperation that "here we go again" at Donna Nook. Surely responding to the OP in any thread is neither "wrong" or "irrelevant"?

At that stage I was not aware of the various photographs posted in subsequent pages. I hope that lessons will be learned: I have no axe to grind, no points to score. I have nothing to add.

I am not qualified to comment on seal physiology & behaviour. Do the monday-friday activities of the RAF cause distress to the seals? I don't know and I keep an open mind.

Similarly my guess is that we are wrong to presume or hope that every seal pup is going to wean succesfully; nature doesn't work that way and there will always be some death through natural causes. I do not, for one second, suggest that this would legitimise the harrassment of "abandoned" pups.

I regard myself simply as a novice hobby photographer and will continue to do so until such time as I leave home for the day with taking photographs as my primary aim. This doesn't lessen my opinion.

Hi Tikka,

Thank you for reading through the thread :). I apologise for my reaction to your last post.
 
Surely it would make sense to just keep them off the beach for the time that the seals are having pups(or whatever its called?)

I think it's a matter of practicality Matty, I mean how would you keep the people off of the beach? Despite it being RAF land (although it's probably rented by the RAF from someone else) as far as I'm aware there aren't any RAF personnel permanently stationed there so there is no gaurd force. I suspect that you'll probably find there are public rights of way across the land which would also mean that you wouldn't be able to prevent people from gaining access to it by law. Even if you erected 15ft high fences topped with razor wire to cordon off the area, those desperate enough would just take a boat and land on the beach.

Then there's the financial aspect of closing it off, Joe Public would much rather have the MOD spending it's money on protecting troops on the front line than protecting seals.
 
Just a thought in respect of "the land". It has always been my understanding that 'littorral' (sp?) land i.e. the land exposed between high & low tides is actually Crown Property and therefore owned by the Queen. The RAF therefore as an agency for defence of the realm maybe do not require permission but I am sure there are laws etc that cover this.

It will always be moot as to if anyone can or should police the access but as I offered recently ~ we are all by differing degrees interested parties and even one tog visiting is (potentially) intrusive & disturbing on the seals 'natural' behaviour. The picture posted a while back of the RAF (?) sending a 4x4 out to "push" the seals off the sandbank (is that what the purpose was???) is possibly highly impacting on the colonies stabilty.

Having said that when I went on safari in SA it was explained that the animals do not see vehicles as a threat provided "they" could not discern that people were in them ~ hence no standing up and reaching outside the Land Rover. Perhaps therefore the next step is highly formalised access using 4x4's with a consequent need for licensed guides etc ???

Education & tutoring of all visitors will continue to be desirable year on year and to limit togs to those equipped with a 600mm lens (as possibly posited by some) would be counter productive & devisive ~ we surely should not go that route!
 
Did any one see the one show on bbc they were diving and swimming with grey seals around the farne islands and the seals were coming up to the guy and he was petting them yes i know the seal was in the sea but programs like that again can cause people who don't know anything abouts seals to follow his lead no mention of possible consequences about what could happen.
Im quite happy to accept if you are careful you can get close and get shots without the animal getting aggitated i have taken many at the fenced walkway area . when i photograph any animal i spend time studying them you then get a feel for the way they behave if you watch females who have pups they are very aggitated when another female or bull approaches. these are the things i do and tell anyone else i take with me. These rules could be applied to any wildlife

1 If you notice in the dune system mothers have what i would call a fear zone some where around 25-30 feet depending on the subject in question at the time they are quite calm till another seal strays inside of this. I feel this can be used as a basis if you stay low and watch the animals reactions this helps to keep agitation to a minium.

2 Never surround a animal always leave it a way to move away on three sides

3 If animals look remotely aggitated or stop what they are doing and watch you. Move away slowly

4 Never approach a group from the centre always approach from the right or left. Otherwise you could chase them into the surf do not approach on both sides at once by this i mean if someones on the opposite side of the group you should also approach from this side

5 Always move slowly and consider which way your scent is being blown

6 Always show mothers and pups the greatest respect

7 Always watch for any injured ill or abandoned seals or pups and report it

8 Always give a donation to wildlife Trust and Seal sancturary without them it would be a worse place

I have worked with animals all my life and i have found if you respect them and do your research you normally end up with better photos it has been said about banning photographers from the beach i dont think that is the answer you would find a great deal of people would not come and donations to the above mentioned would suffer. Also any seals in trouble may not be reported and die. by this i dont mean just pups i mean seals with rope or bits of net wrapped around them in 10 years i have reported instances like this twice
education is the way to go
Regards
Lost (Im no saint but i try not to do the devil's work)
 
Just out of interest, i was wondering if any of you watched this weeks Life on BBC1?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00p1n00/Life_Hunters_and_Hunted/

Skip forward to 49 minutes.

I'd just like to point out that these elephant seal pups are weaned from their mothers, they are fully independant creatures that can leave the colony if they feel they are too stressed by the photographers. The same is true for the big fat pups you see on donna nook towards the end of the breeding season.

However, what is happening at Donna Nook is people are getting too close and separating the pups that are still dependant on their mothers for milk, the ones with their white fluffy coats. Grey seal pups only have about 18 days to suckle from their mums before they are weaned, so every day it is crucial for their survival to stay with their mum and suckle so they grow from the 20kg they are at birth to a healthy 40-50+Kg at weaning 18 days later.

Weaned pups are often very confident, curious and will approach people, hence why that BBC filming crew were so harrased by them.

this is a dependant pup, ones that should be left alone:
DSC_0011a.jpg


this is a weaned grey seal pup:
NR09273.jpg


tikkathreebarrel, the seals response to the RAF disturbance is non existant. I've been surveying on the colony while a chinook helicopter was machine gunning the beach above me and they don't even look up. This is very strange, because in other colonies around the uk (Farne isles, isle of may, north rona) helicopters terrify seals, they will desert their colony and pup if one flies over, so why the seals at Donna nook are so resistant is a big question we're trying to look into.
 
I'd just like to point out that these elephant seal pups are weaned from their mothers, they are fully independant creatures that can leave the colony if they feel they are too stressed by the photographers. The same is true for the big fat pups you see on donna nook towards the end of the breeding season.

I do realise this.
I was just posting it for those who my not have seen it, as i thought it a fitting counterpoint to our discussion. (and quite a coincidence that it would be on the same week!)
 
Avery distressing thread, but one that is, ultimatley, a very effective learning curve and lessons should be learnt. I am glad to hear that many people on this thread are now aware of the problems facing photogapher behaviour and the seals, hopefully there are now more of us armed with the correct advice and attitude, who can pass this information on to other photographers.

I had never heard of Donna Nook, but I would very much love to go now, although I don't have a car so its a no for the moment...But at least now I know how to behave, and what to look out for when I do eventually get there :)
 
the seals response to the RAF disturbance is non existant. I've been surveying on the colony while a chinook helicopter was machine gunning the beach above me and they don't even look up.

If they are born to aircraft flying overhead and doing bombing/straffing runs it is normal to them. It can be amazing what normal can be for both animals and humans

So what we really need is more photographers on the beach so the seals / pups get used to us so we can go in for the wide-angle macro shots :clap:









* I should point out the above comment is very tongue in cheek :p
 
So what we really need is more photographers on the beach so the seals / pups get used to us so we can go in for the wide-angle macro shots :clap:

* I should point out the above comment is very tongue in cheek :p

hehe yeah, if only it worked that way! If the disturbance wasn't killing the pups then yes they would get used the photographers eventually, just like the ones on the dunes part of the colony =)

unfortunatly habituation only occurs when there is a scary stimuli which then results in no harm to the animal, hence it learns they are not a threat (like the aircraft at DN). All our preliminary data points to the fact that the photographers are having a negative effect on the seal's welfare and are causing higher pup mortality on the beach colony, and so the seals are not getting habituated out there because real harm is being caused.

I'm not having a go, I fully appreciate the 'tounge in cheek' nature of the post =) but some people I and the wardens talk to on the colony do say things like this seriously and so I thought it appropriate to post the above =)
 
A few of the people on this thread will know who i am.

Ive been reading this thread over the past few days, and tbh i think the thread has gone as far as it can do. Kaben has admitted that maybe he was too close to the seals, but the group of photographers in question where with a guide, if the guide thought it was wrong, dont you think that he would have said something to the photographers?? I do agree that this is a lesson for people, but there should be stricter rules about taking photos of the seals/pups. I dont think any of the photographers should be to blame, only the owners of the place and the guides that operate there
 
A few of the people on this thread will know who i am.

No idea, are you someone important?

but the group of photographers in question where with a guide, if the guide thought it was wrong, dont you think that he would have said something to the photographers??

No, because the guide would be more interested in making money than the welfare of the animals, read any of the posts from the animal welfare experts in this thread and it should be obvious that if these "guides" new anything about these seals then they'd be singing from the same hymn sheet. Do any of these guides have their credentials checked? I suspect half of them are just seperating unwitting tourists from there money like what happens at any other tourist location.

I dont think any of the photographers should be to blame, only the owners of the place and the guides that operate there

You're right, photogrphers should never take responsibility for their actions, all photographers are complete angels and should be absolved of all responsibility at all. It's all the M.O.D.s fault.:clap::clap::clap:
 
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