Doubling your Power with Godox

[mike weeks]

Reading one of he Facebook groups I came across something interesting, with the original AD360 it was easy to get tail sync but because the newer AD360II, the AD600 and AD200 go automatically to HSS I thought I had lost this until I read this on Strobist.com group, will only work at full power. essentially this is what i tried with the original AD360 (YN622 trigger should do this fine)


BTW for those with a particularly 'geeky' inclination, there is a way of increasing the maximum power you get out of this flash when using high shutter speeds.
You need....
1) The XTR-16 receiver (US$20)
2) To switch off the internal receiver to bypass HSS
3) Set the flash to manual 1/1 maximum power and set Xplor 600 to slave mode.
4) Add a flash delay (custom function 0) of 23 to your X1T-S trigger.
At that point you are hypersyncing the flash (taking advantage of its t.01 1/220 flash duration) and can shoot up to 1/8000th of a second. The advantages of doing this are twofold....
1) You gain a stop of power. Not a lot but it is the equivalent of using a 1200ws light in HSS which is very useful in bright sunlight
2) You use less battery and you can shoot twice as many shots at full power before you overheat the flash (100).

I found that using the X1T-N that I did not need to do the custom delay, most likely a difference in HSS triggering between Sony and Nikon

Tail sync left and HSS right, so yes a gain of about a stop

Mike

 

[HoppyUK]

Yes, I was doing this last week with the AD600, but I think it would apply to any flash regardless - doesn't even have to be Godox.*

You need the Godox X1 trigger, that's the key, with a) TTL pass-through hot-shoe, and b) a delay function. Then piggy-back any basic manual trigger - I used my old Yongnuo RF-602 trigger and receiver plugged into the flash sync jack. With Godox flash units, you need the trigger on, but then have to stop the flash unit switching to HHS mode as soon as the shutter speed goes above x-sync. I did that by simply disabling radio triggering.

Then fiddle about with the delay timing off-set. All cameras and triggers vary, and the best setting may change slightly with shutter speed too, but I got about 1.5 stops more effective brightness (compared to HSS mode) at 1/2000sec, and more even exposure with less darkening up the frame. Only works at full power with IGBT flashes but with most outdoor subjects where there's a lot of ambient light also in the image, the darkening up the frame is pretty much invisible.

*I'll check this tonight. Got a 1200Ws kit to play with too

Edit: using the same procedure, I was also able to increase x-sync speed - got a 7D with 1/250sec normal x-sync up to a clean 1/400sec. I'm not too excited about this as it comes with a slight loss of brightness and the net gain is maybe only 1/3rd of a stop, but it works.

 

[mike weeks]

Yes, I was doing this last week with the AD600, but I think it would apply to any flash regardless - doesn't even have to be Godox.*.

Certainly not exclusive to Godox but not every flash can do this IMHO but probably more than many realise.


Mike

 

[HoppyUK]

Certainly not exclusive to Godox but not every flash can do this IMHO but probably more than many realise.


Mike

You can do tail-hypersync with any flash unit and an appropriate trigger, but it only works well with a long flash duration that reduces darkening up the frame, particularly when combined with a camera that has a fast shutter rate, plus a bit of careful tweaking to get it optimised.

 

[HoppyUK]

Geek alert!

I've been experimenting with tail-hypersync a bit more, using two Godox AD600 heads firing into the 1200Ws twin-tube extension, and have come up with what I think is an interesting way of improving performance by reducing the fading up the frame, and putting more brightness in the middle of the image where you want it. The 1200Ws extension is basically two AD600 heads running entirely independently, but firing simultaneously. What if you could adjust the timing between the two flashes, so that one fired fractionally later than the other?

I used two triggers, both with adjustable sync off-set timing, and an optical slave to pick up off the first tube firing and trigger the second. The result looks like this (but ignore the vertical stripes - that's just the pattern on my wallpaper!). Both Canon 7D at 1/2000sec.

Godox 1200Ws twin tube extension, with the second tube firing a few fractions of a ms after the first. Compared to the image below, exposure is more even overall, with the bright zone moved to the middle of the frame.


For comparison, Godox 1200Ws with both tubes firing simultaneously, as per normal tail-hypersync. Fading up the frame is prominent, and the bright zone is characteristically at the bottom where it's not so useful.

 

[mike weeks]

Geek alert!

Release the inner Geek

Mike

 

[HoppyUK]

Release the inner Geek

Mike

The geek is out! The take-away from these examples is that double-dump hypersync is 2.1 stops brighter than normal high-speed sync.

1) Double-dump tail-hypersync, compared to 2) straight tail-hypersync, and 3) normal high-speed sync. The first two are same exposure (1/2000sec at f/8, ISO125) and the higher brightness at the bottom has gone, across the middle brightness is increased about a quarter of a stop, and fading at the top is reduced too. Third image is what it should look like, in HSS mode with even exposure all over, but ISO is raised to 400 and it's also had a 0.4 stops lift in Lightroom. In other words, exposure is actually 2.1 stops down on double-dump hypersync.

There is no significant daylight in any of these as ambient exposure is about five stops below (cloudy, early evening). On a brighter day, the ambient contribution would even out the exposure all over, leaving you with just 2.1 stops more flash brightness These are all with the Godox AD600 twinned into the 1200Ws extension head at full power, but you can do this with any two flash units - the trick is in the triggers. The usual tail-hypersync caveats apply, and results vary with different cameras and flash units

1) Double-dump tail-hypersync, 2x 600Ws



2) Normal tail-hypersync, 1200Ws


3) Normal high-speed sync, 1200Ws

 

[sk66]

....

I used two triggers, both with adjustable sync off-set timing, and an optical slave to pick up off the first tube firing and trigger the second. The result looks like this...

Very nice result.
What's the purpose of two triggers? Isn't the delay of the optical reacting be enough?

 

[HoppyUK]

Very nice result.
What's the purpose of two triggers? Isn't the delay of the optical reacting be enough?

Cheers Steven

Optical slave delay is miniscule. I've seen it show up on oscilloscope traces before and it's virtually instant, I'll measure it next time. So yes, you need the second trigger to have an adjustable off-set, and that allows the brighter zone from the second pulse to be positioned anywhere you like. I put it just below the centre in these examples as that gave the smoothest transition with this particular rig, but also different cameras vary quite a bit when it comes to this kind of very fine tuning. The bright zone is more prominent at faster shutter speeds (than 1/2000sec), while there's a really nice smooth blend at longer speeds.

It really needs more tweaking, and ideally a pair of flash units with a) a long flash duration (AD600 is pretty long already), and b) a flash pulse designed to rise more slowly than they do at present, to smooth the transition when the second pulse comes in. I don't know how easy/possible that is, but I've suggested it to a senior contact I have at Elinchrom, as I think it would really bring their High Sync system to life. The potential of two stops more brightness than regular HSS, without significant exposure variations up the frame, sounds pretty useful to me

 

[sk66]

Now you just need to figure out how to time two separate strobes to separate halves of the exposure (frame).

 

[mike weeks]

what about stacking the Godox triggers and putting first light in a different channel to the second?

Mike

 

[HoppyUK]

Now you just need to figure out how to time two separate strobes to separate halves of the exposure (frame).

That's effectively what is happening. You can time the first flash to fire whenever you want* and the second flash any time after that. The difficulty is getting them to merge seamlessly.

*In the first two images of the wallpaper, you can see that the first flash is actually a fraction beyond the timing limit (for maximum brightness) with a tiny dark band appearing at the bottom, which is the second curtain closing.

what about stacking the Godox triggers and putting first light in a different channel to the second?

Mike

That would be sweet, but I can't find a way to stop the AD600 switching to HSS mode when the shutter speed goes over x-sync, so I had to bypass it with a secondary trigger in the pass-through hot-shoe (YN RF-602, as described earlier). Maybe this is a Canon thing, or maybe I'm missing something? Pressing the HSS button on the head does nothing - it fires in HSS modes regardless of that, whenever the shutter speed goes over x-sync. Camera menu settings are no help either.

 

[mike weeks]

You need to use the XTR and switch to external trigger

Mike

 

[HoppyUK]

You need to use the XTR and switch to external trigger

Mike

Would you link to the exact product please Mike? There seem to be several Godox XTR this and that! Cheers

 

[mike weeks]

@HoppyUK I used this and then switched flash to i.e. bypass the TTL trigger system

 

[HoppyUK]

Ahh...! And plug it into the USB sync port that I thought was only for firmware updates That'd sort it, cheers Need to get one.

Does that trigger also plug into the AD200? Not got one to hand to check, but a couple of those heads with the twin adapter bracket is another good candidate for this double-dump hypersync trick. That would make a very handy and pretty potent outdoors weapon, though (guessing) it might be harder to get a seamless blend of the two flash pulses.

 

[sk66]

The AD200 can use an FT/XT16 in the USB port... you just need to turn the internal wireless function off.

 

[mike weeks]

Ahh...! And plug it into the USB sync port that I thought was only for firmware updates That'd sort it, cheers Need to get one.

Does that trigger also plug into the AD200? Not got one to hand to check, but a couple of those heads with the twin adapter bracket is another good candidate for this double-dump hypersync trick. That would make a very handy and pretty potent outdoors weapon, though (guessing) it might be harder to get a seamless blend of the two flash pulses.

You use a different port for firmware upgrades and yes that works as easily on an AD200 as it does on an AD600 or an AD360

Mike

 

[HoppyUK]

The AD200 can use an FT/XT16 in the USB port... you just need to turn the internal wireless function off.

Sweet

So, with two triggers stacked in the hot-shoe and one XTR receiver, you can fire both heads in tail-hypersync mode with independently adjustable timing on each. I don't have the bits to do that ATM, but don't see why it wouldn't work and does away with the optical slave set-up I have currently. This is worthy of investigation

 

[mike weeks]

Sweet

So, with two triggers stacked in the hot-shoe and one XTR receiver, you can fire both heads in tail-hypersync mode with independently adjustable timing on each. I don't have the bits to do that ATM, but don't see why it wouldn't work and does away with the optical slave set-up I have currently. This is worthy of investigation

You need a receiver for each head to bypass the internal receiver otherwise it will understand the HSS pulse and screw up your best efforts

Mike

 

[HoppyUK]

You use a different port for firmware upgrades and yes that works as easily on an AD200 as it does on an AD600 or an AD360

Mike

Cheers Mike Yes, I see that now I've actually had a proper look

 

[sk66]

I thought putting the transmitter into single pin mode would prevent the auto HSS switch, but I just tried and it doesn't seem to. But I did find that you can set a delay in the transmitter itself, as well as the heads. You can also set the heads into S1 (optical) mode for triggering which should prevent it from switching to HSS automatically (but, if the internal wireless is left on it doesn't switch to optical).

A lot of options without too many tricks, including offsetting a non-TTL head (early AD360, etc)

 

[HoppyUK]

You need a receiver for each head to bypass the internal receiver otherwise it will understand the HSS pulse and screw up your best efforts

Mike

Oh right, yes I guess so. In which case, the separate optical slave method has the advantage of not needing the second trigger stacking on the camera - it can go anywhere it can see the first flash firing.

I thought putting the transmitter into single pin mode would prevent the auto HSS switch, but I just tried and it doesn't seem to. But I did find that you can set a delay in the transmitter itself, as well as the heads. You can also set the heads into S1 (optical) mode for triggering which should prevent it from switching to HSS automatically (but, if the internal wireless is left on it doesn't switch to optical).

A lot of options without too many tricks, including offsetting a non-TTL head (early AD360, etc)

Shame about that, but yes, a few options and using the built-in optical slave would be cool, but unfortunately the delay settings on the head for that are too course. They're in fractions of a second, rather than fractions of a ms on the triggers - for tinkering with second-curtain sync I think.

 

[HoppyUK]

I thought putting the transmitter into single pin mode would prevent the auto HSS switch, but I just tried and it doesn't seem to. But I did find that you can set a delay in the transmitter itself, as well as the heads. You can also set the heads into S1 (optical) mode for triggering which should prevent it from switching to HSS automatically (but, if the internal wireless is left on it doesn't switch to optical).

A lot of options without too many tricks, including offsetting a non-TTL head (early AD360, etc)

But I wonder if it might work with Canon? I think you and Mike are Nikon, but with Canon I believe the HSS firing signal doesn't go through the centre pin, so may be different.

If only I had two of the X1T triggers to check, but my second trigger is the XT32 (that I much prefer) but it lacks a few features - mainly auto-TTL of course, but also no option to switch to centre-pin firing.

Hmm... a few more options to pursue

 

[mike weeks]

But I wonder if it might work with Canon? I think you and Mike are Nikon

Yep, Nikon, have all the triggers at least once except the olympus/panasonic, oh the joys of demonstrating

Mike

 

[sk66]

But I wonder if it might work with Canon? I think you and Mike are Nikon, but with Canon I believe the HSS firing signal doesn't go through the centre pin, so may be different.

If only I had two of the X1T triggers to check, but my second trigger is the XT32 (that I much prefer) but it lacks a few features - mainly auto-TTL of course, but also no option to switch to centre-pin firing.

Hmm... a few more options to pursue

With Nikon I thought HSS required TTL, which wouldn't be center pin (? it only grounds to trigger the flash). I was sure that would work, but it didn't... could be a firmware glitch I suppose.

Edit: I just did a test by taping over all of the hotshoe contacts except for the center pin and I got a black frame... HSS disabled. I think "center pin mode" must be referring only to the passthrough shoe.

 

[juggler]

Clever and potentially useful.. but I reckon it's something I'd use so rarely that I'd forget how to set it up when the time came!

 

[mike weeks]

With Nikon I thought HSS required TTL, which wouldn't be center pin (? it only grounds to trigger the flash). I was sure that would work, but it didn't... could be a firmware glitch I suppose.

Edit: I just did a test by taping over all of the hotshoe contacts except for the center pin and I got a black frame... HSS disabled. I think "center pin mode" must be referring only to the passthrough shoe.

Nikon uses the TTL signal to tell it to go to HSS, but does not need to be in TTL mode as in you can shoot manual

Mike

 

[sk66]

Nikon uses the TTL signal to tell it to go to HSS, but does not need to be in TTL mode as in you can shoot manual

Mike

Yes, I meant TTL communication... except for some units where HSS mode is enabled at the head as a kind of "dumb mode" (i.e. AD360 v1)

 

[Craig Tull]

This is very useful to me as i shoot action outdoors in bright sunlight sometimes and need all the power i can get. HSS is good but i feel like that stop extra could make all the difference. I use a D700 and have the X1TN transmitter with 2 AD600's. How would i go about making this work please? I am getting so confused

 

[sk66]

This is very useful to me as i shoot action outdoors in bright sunlight sometimes and need all the power i can get. HSS is good but i feel like that stop extra could make all the difference. I use a D700 and have the X1TN transmitter with 2 AD600's. How would i go about making this work please? I am getting so confused

It should be pretty simple... you just need to disable the auto HSS function of the AD600.
This can be done by using a manual trigger (xtr16) in the USB port and turning off the built in communication; you'll need one for each strobe. Or you can tape over the TTL pins (all but the center pin) for the X1T, that will prevent HSS for all strobes. Then just set the X1T C.Fn-00 for the most suitable offset/delay (Mike used 23ms). The AD600 needs to be at full power to get the most from it and a more even exposure.

 

[HoppyUK]

This is very useful to me as i shoot action outdoors in bright sunlight sometimes and need all the power i can get. HSS is good but i feel like that stop extra could make all the difference. I use a D700 and have the X1TN transmitter with 2 AD600's. How would i go about making this work please? I am getting so confused

It can be confusing, unless you're fully up to speed on how all this stuff works. Basically, you need workarounds to get the thing to function in a way it's not designed to, by a) extracting the HSS timing moment from the camera, but b) preventing the flash from firing in HSS mode when the shutter speed goes above max x-sync, and c) optimising the off-set timing (firing delay) to suit your particular camera model. Advice may be brand-specific, so Steven sk66 and Mike Weeks are probably best placed.

Since you have two AD600's, you could gain that extra stop in proper HSS mode (and all its advantages) with the Godox 1200Ws twin extension head. Also, have you got a low-profile softbox adapter to optimise brightness from the AD600's recessed flash tube? There's half a stop to be had with that.

Welcome to TP

 

[Craig Tull]

Thanks a lot guys but i can't get this to work like HSS. I have the ad600 at full power for lowest flash duration and taped the contacts on the camera so it definitely doesn't enter HSS mode. at 1/400th shutter i get a black bar and then if i put the custom function offset up at all it just gets worse. It's almost like i need to put it down but you can not do this. Hopefully Mike chimes in because i haven't the foggiest how he gets it to work. I guess i could just buy the Elinchrom Skyport HS and a few receivers for it to work?

 

[Craig Tull]

HoppyUK i have bought 2 colt 45's to throw the light further and these work really well gaining me extra stops but sometimes i just feel HS over HSS would give me just that much more overpowering ability

 

[sk66]

Thanks a lot guys but i can't get this to work like HSS. I have the ad600 at full power for lowest flash duration and taped the contacts on the camera so it definitely doesn't enter HSS mode. at 1/400th shutter i get a black bar and then if i put the custom function offset up at all it just gets worse. It's almost like i need to put it down but you can not do this. Hopefully Mike chimes in because i haven't the foggiest how he gets it to work. I guess i could just buy the Elinchrom Skyport HS and a few receivers for it to work?

Is your camera set to front curtain or rear curtain/slow sync? I haven't messed with this enough to know for sure, but it sounds like maybe rear curtain sync is already delaying the flash timing too far... Also, the camera needs to be set to auto FP.

Edit, it's also possible that taping over all of the contacts is preventing the camera from setting a HSS timing because it doesn't know a flash/trigger is mounted... with Nikon I *believe* the right rear contact in the hotshoe is the TTL data transmission, and the one that needs to be taped. The right front contact is monitor and how the camera knows something is attached; try uncovering that contact as well as the center pin (or all but the rt rear contact).

 

[mike weeks]

This is very useful to me as i shoot action outdoors in bright sunlight sometimes and need all the power i can get. HSS is good but i feel like that stop extra could make all the difference. I use a D700 and have the X1TN transmitter with 2 AD600's. How would i go about making this work please? I am getting so confused

Unless you have the XTR receiver it won’t work

Mike

 

[HoppyUK]

Thanks a lot guys but i can't get this to work like HSS. I have the ad600 at full power for lowest flash duration and taped the contacts on the camera so it definitely doesn't enter HSS mode. at 1/400th shutter i get a black bar and then if i put the custom function offset up at all it just gets worse. It's almost like i need to put it down but you can not do this. Hopefully Mike chimes in because i haven't the foggiest how he gets it to work. I guess i could just buy the Elinchrom Skyport HS and a few receivers for it to work?

I'm not sure about this taping the pins business, maybe a Nikon thing but that's not how I've done it. I'm using Canon but AFAIK the same would apply to Nikon. There are other ways, but this should work for you.

Thing is, you have to get the camera to fire the HSS trigger moment, which goes out a long time before the normal x-syn signal, and the only way to do that is with an HSS enabled trigger, ie X1. But you must then prevent the flash from firing in HSS mode. I did that by switching off the AD600's radio receiver, and putting a separate manual trigger (YN RF-602) in the X1's pass-through hot-shoe, with RF-602 receiver unit plugged into the AD600's 3.5mm jack sync socket. Then adjust the X1's timing off-set to customise for your camera and whatever manual trigger you're using.

HoppyUK i have bought 2 colt 45's to throw the light further and these work really well gaining me extra stops but sometimes i just feel HS over HSS would give me just that much more overpowering ability

Tail-hypersync (HS) works quite well with the AD600 (full power only) and outdoors in bright ambient the fading effect of the flash will probably be insignificant. You'll gain at least one stop of usuable brightness, maybe a bit more.

 

[HoppyUK]

Unless you have the XTR receiver it won’t work

Mike

Yes, I remember a previous debate on this now (above). I did it as I just explained, but the XTR receiver plugged into the AD600 is a neater way of doing the same thing

 

[Craig Tull]

Unless you have the XTR receiver it won’t work

Mike

So getting the XTR-16 receiver on both of my AD600's will then make this work? I will order a couple tonight if so. Thanks Mike

 

[mike weeks]

So getting the XTR-16 receiver on both of my AD600's will then make this work? I will order a couple tonight if so. Thanks Mike

What you were doing did not bypass internal trigger,

Mike