Drone near miss at Heathrow

steveo_mcg said:
Have you ever read these articles?

Emergency vehicles are specifically exempt, airports are very not publicly accessible, industrial complexes ditto. The RTA only applies to public roads and publicly accessible roads. Private sanctions are not speeding, you will not get a fixed penalty notice or points. Speeding is a specific offence under the law and only applicable in narrowly defined circumstances.
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But you are still speeding in the common interpretation of the word (which you apparently don't want to admit exists).

"A speeding car" doesn't have to breaking the law, it is just a car travelling at speed. A person stopped for speeding within an airport will receive a disciplinary for speeding within the airport. A police car doing 120mph is speeding (it's certainly not dawdling), but will not be prosecuted for it.

Do your friends call you Mr Pedantic?
 
honestly arguing about the difference between speeding and driving fast is just an exercise in semantics - Dave's original point was that a car is made to be capable of more than 70mph because there are places where it can be driven at those speeds legally, a drone doesn't need to be capable of flying at plus 500 ft because there is nowhere that can be done legally (likewise it doesnt have to be capable of entering restricted areas because that is always illegal... so making those things the selling point in an advert is a bit strange)
 
@big soft moose thanks Pete, I was beginning to wonder how much further the definition of speeding could be squeezed with the way that strange argument kept on going.

You've managed to sum it up pretty well and hopefully your explanation will help with him understanding it.
 
big soft moose said:
likewise it doesnt have to be capable of entering restricted areas because that is always illegal... so making those things the selling point in an advert is a bit strange)
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that bits not entirely true. Its not always illegal. I agree about using it as a selling point but there are a lot of places like Hanworth Park near me. Its within Heathrow ATZ and class A airspace. There is a letter of agreement from ATC giving permission to fly there. I'd be mighty p***ed off if some software said I couldn't switch my drone on there. But there is nowhere it needs to be capable of more then 400"
 
big soft moose said:
a drone doesn't need to be capable of flying at plus 500 ft because there is nowhere that can be done legally...
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Is that actually true? Are there any circumstances in which you might be allowed to exceed 500 ft with appropriate permission from the CAA? I honestly don't know.
 
StewartR said:
Is that actually true? Are there any circumstances in which you might be allowed to exceed 500 ft with appropriate permission from the CAA? I honestly don't know.
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neither do I i was just going from whats been said - however even if it does you could get a specialist drone for that so its not a function needed to be built into the run of the mill drones - in the same way that a ford focus can't compete in F1
 
Dave1 said:
But you are still speeding in the common interpretation of the word (which you apparently don't want to admit exists).

"A speeding car" doesn't have to breaking the law, it is just a car travelling at speed. A person stopped for speeding within an airport will receive a disciplinary for speeding within the airport. A police car doing 120mph is speeding (it's certainly not dawdling), but will not be prosecuted for it.

Do your friends call you Mr Pedantic?
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big soft moose said:
honestly arguing about the difference between speeding and driving fast is just an exercise in semantics - Dave's original point was that a car is made to be capable of more than 70mph because there are places where it can be driven at those speeds legally, a drone doesn't need to be capable of flying at plus 500 ft because there is nowhere that can be done legally (likewise it doesnt have to be capable of entering restricted areas because that is always illegal... so making those things the selling point in an advert is a bit strange)
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Dave1 said:
@big soft moose thanks Pete, I was beginning to wonder how much further the definition of speeding could be squeezed with the way that strange argument kept on going.

You've managed to sum it up pretty well and hopefully your explanation will help with him understanding it.
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We were discussing the use of drones and the law I said legally a dozen times clearly not enough. It's funny how pedantic the law is.

And has been pointed out it is probably still relevant.

Any way back to the point you've been dodging Dave, why do you care that people may be breaking in this low risk manner, why do you care that people are making a point of them being unrestricted?
 
steveo_mcg said:
Any way back to the point you've been dodging Dave, why do you care that people may be breaking in this low risk manner, why do you care that people are making a point of them being unrestricted?
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Do you struggle with the concept of a forum, and how it works?

This is a thread discussing drones and their use, people post into the thread anything to do with drones and their use (and abuse). It isn't a difficult concept, if you want to participate you make a post and so do others and then all the posts are discussed.

Anything to do with, and about drones can be posted into the thread for discussion.

Does that help?
 
StewartR said:
Is that actually true? Are there any circumstances in which you might be allowed to exceed 500 ft with appropriate permission from the CAA? I honestly don't know.
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of course one of the reasons they are is that drones aren't just sold in the uk and international law probably varies - but for uk purposes it could still be restricted to 500ft via firmware
 
Dave1 said:
Do you struggle with the concept of a forum, and how it works?

This is a thread discussing drones and their use, people post into the thread anything to do with drones and their use (and abuse). It isn't a difficult concept, if you want to participate you make a post and so do others and then all the posts are discussed.

Anything to do with, and about drones can be posted into the thread for discussion.

Does that help?
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Ach, bored now.
 
big soft moose said:
of course one of the reasons they are is that drones aren't just sold in the uk and international law probably varies - but for uk purposes it could still be restricted to 500ft via firmware
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The US is also 500 feet from what I've read, and most countries have very similar rules regarding aviation, so it's probably reasonably safe to think that would be the same or similar (in metric) most places.
 
Dave1 said:
The US is also 500 feet from what I've read, and most countries have very similar rules regarding aviation, so it's probably reasonably safe to think that would be the same or similar (in metric) most places.
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this is true - but you also have places where there isn't any effective law or any effective enforcement - the western world only covers about 1/3 of the land area of the globe after al
 
big soft moose said:
this is true - but you also have places where there isn't any effective law or any effective enforcement - the western world only covers about 1/3 of the land area of the globe after al
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That's true, but I would think that drone use would be most prevalent in countries with higher disposable income (and more likely to be western or similar with regards to regulation).
 
I wonder what the law is in china (where most of these are made)
 
big soft moose said:
I wonder what the law is in china (where most of these are made)
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From Google, it seems that they are allowed.

  • All drones under 7Kg are permitted to be flown in China
  • If your drone weighs 7Kg – 116Kg a license from CAAC is required
  • Any drone weighing over 116Kg requires a pilots license and UAV certification for operation
  • Drone flights in controlled areas require approval in advance
  • Approval from CAAC is needed for all commercial drone flights
  • Avoid flying near airports and flight paths and exercise caution when flying over built up areas or over people
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https://uavsystemsinternational.com/drone-laws-by-country/china-drone-laws/
 
Dave1 said:
The US is also 500 feet from what I've read, and most countries have very similar rules regarding aviation, so it's probably reasonably safe to think that would be the same or similar (in metric) most places.
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400ft in the UK. I could easily over-ride that on both of my drones if I wanted to. Of course I wouldn't. The 400ft ceiling is there for a reason.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
400ft in the UK. I could easily over-ride that on both of my drones if I wanted to. Of course I wouldn't. The 400ft ceiling is there for a reason.
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Just noticed the US is also 400 feet. I suppose the 500 feet idea actually came from reading this thread :confused:.
 
The Chinese don't take unauthorised user lightly though. Jail is the destination for those who tramsgress.

I found this while looking for info.

In December 2013, 4 operators of a fixed wing UAV were conducting a surveying and mapping operation to the east of the Beijing Airport without asking for in-advance approval. This flight induced a huge air panic, in December 2013. The 4 operators have been arrested and detained for the « crime of endangering public security » due to the consequences of this act: two planes were air miss and forced to deport, and many flights have been delayed until the air zone been cleaned. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-12/31/content_17207400.htm
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So jailed for an unauthorised flight near an airport.

But even more startling was the government response.

Complementary information shows how high is the Chinese public reaction confronted to a thread to air security : Fighters took-off (2 fighters, 2 helicopters), and a massive land chase organized, involving 1.226 soldiers, 123 military vehicles and 26 specialized technicians to find and catch the trespassers.
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:jawdrop:

http://www.suasnews.com/2014/11/32433/chinas-uas-regulation-an-interesting-precedent/
 
big soft moose said:
a drone doesn't need to be capable of flying at plus 500 ft because there is nowhere that can be done legally
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Not entirely accurate. A non-camera carrying drone, for example my DJI Phantom 2 without the GoPro attached, can legally fly up to 1000ft in certain circumstances with permission of appropriate ATC or within an ATZ, again with relevant permissions obtained in advance.
 
StewartR said:
Is that actually true? Are there any circumstances in which you might be allowed to exceed 500 ft with appropriate permission from the CAA? I honestly don't know.
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What happens if you are near a big hill.
Are you not allowed to go up the slope because you'd be 401 feet above take off point?
Or you are near a cliff and inadvertently go over the edge - OMG - sirens shoot it down!
Both silly scenarios which demonstrate why hard and fast rules are unenforceable and not a substitute for common sense.
 
4wd said:
What happens if you are near a big hill.
Are you not allowed to go up the slope because you'd be 401 feet above take off point?
Or you are near a cliff and inadvertently go over the edge - OMG - sirens shoot it down!
Both silly scenarios which demonstrate why hard and fast rules are unenforceable and not a substitute for common sense.
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400ft AGL, above ground level. So, if I am flying in the Brecon Beacons and you are on a beach, my 400ft will be higher above sea level than your 400ft.
 
B1ts said:
Except of course the joy of rc planes is just in the flying whereas many drones are used (according to those that have them, I do not) to capture images of stuff and things, some of which will not be located on the common with lots of space. So that is perhaps one more reason than none? ;)
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That is true and to be fair hadn't really thought of it as much more than the enjoyment of flying as it always used to be. Just doesn't sit right with me that someone can go buy one and an hour later be flying it over a busy urban area with very little safe guard for anyone unlucky enough to be underneath.
 
So there I was enjoying reading this thread about drones and admiring Ricardo's pictures of Tenby, then somehow we got onto speeding cars and the likes so I'm totally confused now lol. Anyway to cut a long story short I'm now the proud owner of a DJI Phantom 3 Pro, so far I've only flown it a couple of times on farm land near Tenby where I have my caravan. My understanding of the hight limit is 400 feet as small light aircraft have a lower flight limit of 500 feet so in a sense there is a 100 feet safety area between the two.

Ricardo, those are some lovely pictures of Tenby, hopefully with a bit more experience and courage to fly over water one day I'll be able to do the same.
 
Grayo said:
My understanding of the hight limit is 400 feet as small light aircraft have a lower flight limit of 500 feet so in a sense there is a 100 feet safety area between the two.
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Theres fairly (very) limited conditions a light aircraft can be flown at 500'. And even fewer reasons you'd want to. Unless you're taking off or landing that is. For practice purposes 1000' is the min altitude you're likely to find light aircraft. Which isn't a reason to go above 400' with a drone, but am just saying for info
 
Grayo said:
So there I was enjoying reading this thread about drones and admiring Ricardo's pictures of Tenby, then somehow we got onto speeding cars and the likes so I'm totally confused now lol. Anyway to cut a long story short I'm now the proud owner of a DJI Phantom 3 Pro, so far I've only flown it a couple of times on farm land near Tenby where I have my caravan. My understanding of the hight limit is 400 feet as small light aircraft have a lower flight limit of 500 feet so in a sense there is a 100 feet safety area between the two.

Ricardo, those are some lovely pictures of Tenby, hopefully with a bit more experience and courage to fly over water one day I'll be able to do the same.
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Hello and thank you! Flying over water has never worried me. Enjoy your Phantom, they are great fun!
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Hello and thank you! Flying over water has never worried me. Enjoy your Phantom, they are great fun!
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Hi Ricardo, yes thanks for that they are great fun although I've only flown it a couple of times so far. I see your based in Cardiff, I'm just up the road in Pontypridd, I'll probably be asking lots of questions lol.
 
Grayo said:
Hi Ricardo, yes thanks for that they are great fun although I've only flown it a couple of times so far. I see your based in Cardiff, I'm just up the road in Pontypridd, I'll probably be asking lots of questions lol.
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No problem, anytime!
 
What are you flying, I've got the P3P only had it two weeks so still getting used to it.
 
Very nice, at first I was looking at the parrot drones but decided to take the plunge with the P3P after reading so many good reviews. It's taken me almost two weeks to realise there's no apature control on the camera lol felt a right plonker lol.
 
Grayo said:
Very nice, at first I was looking at the parrot drones but decided to take the plunge with the P3P after reading so many good reviews. It's taken me almost two weeks to realise there's no apature control on the camera lol felt a right plonker lol.
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lol you donut!
 
boyfalldown said:
Theres fairly (very) limited conditions a light aircraft can be flown at 500'. And even fewer reasons you'd want to. Unless you're taking off or landing that is. For practice purposes 1000' is the min altitude you're likely to find light aircraft. Which isn't a reason to go above 400' with a drone, but am just saying for info
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When I was a press photographer the company hired a light aircraft and pilot for me and a colleague to shoot ariel photography of an area in South Wales, the pilot told us then he was not allowed to go below 500 feet. Although we were that high we had a good number of shots of the areas photographed.
 
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boyfalldown said:
Theres fairly (very) limited conditions a light aircraft can be flown at 500'. And even fewer reasons you'd want to. Unless you're taking off or landing that is. For practice purposes 1000' is the min altitude you're likely to find light aircraft. Which isn't a reason to go above 400' with a drone, but am just saying for info
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I live near one of the highest points on Tyneside and have a hospital fairly close, as well as an estate than tends to require more than the average police attention. The air ambulance and police helicopter are often overhead a lot lower than 1000', sometimes I'd be surprised if it was even 500' high.

We also have large playing fields not far away where I've seen people messing about with a drone. If they were to disregard the rules there's a good chance of a collision.
 
Dave1 said:
I live near one of the highest points on Tyneside and have a hospital fairly close, as well as an estate than tends to require more than the average police attention. The air ambulance and police helicopter are often overhead a lot lower than 1000', sometimes I'd be surprised if it was even 500' high.

We also have large playing fields not far away where I've seen people messing about with a drone. If they were to disregard the rules there's a good chance of a collision.
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Yes to true some people have no regard at all. I suppose regarding the police and air ambulance but more the police helicopters they can fly where they like, I live on the side of a mountain in South Wales and often see the police helicopters flying at window level through the valley certainly not anywhere near 500 feet.
 
Dave1 said:
I live near one of the highest points on Tyneside and have a hospital fairly close, as well as an estate than tends to require more than the average police attention. The air ambulance and police helicopter are often overhead a lot lower than 1000', sometimes I'd be surprised if it was even 500' high.

We also have large playing fields not far away where I've seen people messing about with a drone. If they were to disregard the rules there's a good chance of a collision.
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I'm betting you aren't seeing general aviation at 500' though.

There are situations where people fly at 500'. I didn't say there weren't'.

There is no doubt at all that a collision between a drone and a helicopter needs to be avoided but you'd never get a drone close. Just the aerodynamics of a helicopter means flying near to one is impossible for something as small and light as a drone. Remember the vortexes from aircraft can and have caused crashes of proper aircraft.

When I had my airprox with a chinook I was much further away then 100' and was very lucky to walk away. Through experience I know lots about how hard it is to fly near helicopters


No reason to fly illegally, but no reason to worry unduly either.
 
Grayo said:
When I was a press photographer the company hired a light aircraft and pilot for me and a colleague to shoot ariel photography of an area in South Wales, the pilot told us then he was not allowed to go below 500 feet. Although we were that high we had a good number of shots of the areas photographed.
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Worth reading the VFR if you think that's common
 
It only common sense really isn't it you just don't do it end of. We get the military helicopters flying up the valley sometimes but they are a lot higher normally.
 
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