Falling price of Oil?

[Cobra]

Dynamo lights are powered by your legs.

Dynamo lights are powered from the wheels going round, and the dynamo in contact with the wheel,
I know you would need something to initially start the movement, but once moving it must be able to start regenerating?

If you knew how to make a system that recovered more energy than it put in

Just equal or recharge a spare battery / power source

 

[nilagin]

Dynamo lights are powered by your legs. What would power the dynamo recharging system on an electric car? The motor that is powered by the battery you are trying to charge. Can you see what the problem is with this? .

The dynamo maybe powered by your legs, but is driven by the wheels. Hence why can't the cars wheels drive the dynamo?

 

[nilagin]

If you knew how to make a system that recovered more energy than it put in, you would win the Nobel prize for Physics, never mind making a fortune. Better get to work.

Fairly sure that is called a step up generator. We covered those in physics when I was at school in the 70's.

 

[Cobra]

The dynamo maybe powered by your legs, but is driven by the wheels. Hence why can't the cars wheels drive the dynamo?

My point exactly, either that or the drive shafts ( or what ever causes a play and go car to ... erm go ... )

Fairly sure that is called a step up generator. We covered those in physics when I was at school in the 70's.

Never my strong point that, but maybe for the same reason that oil companies fought off the "modern electric vehicle" for as long as they could ?

 

[onomatopoeia]

The dynamo maybe powered by your legs, but is driven by the wheels. Hence why can't the cars wheels drive the dynamo?

They can. Energy can be recovered this way when you want to slow down as you've got spare kinetic energy you no longer need and rather than using the brakes to turn it into heat, you turn it into electrical energy. When you're maintining a constant speed, to take out energy for the dynamo, it has to be put in from somewhere. That somewhere is the motor, which draws power from the battery.

If you draw one watt of power from the battery to turn the motor, which turns the wheels and so turns the dynamo, the amount of power that comes out of the dynamo will be less than one watt, as there will be losses to friction and no system can be more than 100% efficient.

Fairly sure that is called a step up generator. We covered those in physics when I was at school in the 70's.

You might mean a step up transformer, which increases voltage. That is not the same as increasing power.

 

[simon ess]

View: https://youtu.be/iJuhir-okps

 

[Deleted member 49549]

 

[LongLensPhotography]

If more people have EVs then demand for oil will fall. Being self sufficient in fuel would be far more sensible than having to rely on squabbling nations for it.

No it will not, only in a slightly different form. Where do you think all those electrons come from? Here in UK it is large proportion of oils. Coal is going down, nuclear is even less, renewables - only a tiny fraction. It may be a different story in Norway (hydro) or France (nuclear).

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Fairly sure that is called a step up generator. We covered those in physics when I was at school in the 70's.

They upped the voltage, but reduced the current, you can't create more energy.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Dynamo lights are powered from the wheels going round, and the dynamo in contact with the wheel,
I know you would need something to initially start the movement, but once moving it must be able to start regenerating?


Just equal or recharge a spare battery / power source

You're talking about a perpetual motion machine, crack that one, and you'll be a very rich man.

 

[wyx087]

No it will not, only in a slightly different form. Where do you think all those electrons come from? Here in UK it is large proportion of oils. Coal is going down, nuclear is even less, renewables - only a tiny fraction. It may be a different story in Norway (hydro) or France (nuclear).

UK now has enough renewable energy to make an impact, how do you think British Gas are funding their free daytime electricity for weekend scheme?

There's hope diesel and over 100g/km cars will be taxed to oblivion with the future emission test and more EV incentives introduced. This transition is happening painfully slow.


As for petrol prices, I blame the weak pound sterling. I would not be surprised to see record high prices next year when the real s***storm hits the fan with triggering of a certain article.

 

[Cobra]

You're talking about a perpetual motion machine,

Not necessarily wholly regenerative, but I'm still convinced there is a way to put charge back into the system purely from the motion of the vehicle
or its drive parts.. thus extending the range...

crack that one, and you'll be a very rich man.

Yeah I know that last line needs work, I'll look at it again later

 

[bass_junkie83]

Not necessarily wholly regenerative, but I'm still convinced there is a way to put charge back into the system purely from the motion of the vehicle
or its drive parts.. thus extending the range.

Even with 100% efficiency any system you use would only generate an amount of energy equal to the losses of that device. As already said, only when decelerating is there opportunity to recover energy.

So ideally you want to be continuously decelerating for your entire journey. Not sure how you would do that from a standing start, maybe reverse gear?

 

[Cobra]

Not sure how you would do that from a standing start, maybe reverse gear?

See plenty of idea's being banded about, We'll get there in the end

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Not necessarily wholly regenerative, but I'm still convinced there is a way to put charge back into the system purely from the motion of the vehicle
or its drive parts.. thus extending the range...



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Yeah I know that last line needs work, I'll look at it again later

You're still trying to create energy out of nothing. You could put a dynamo on, which adds more friction to the system, it's like having a brake on all the time, so you'd be charging your battery slightly, but you'd increase the power consumption for that speed by more, because nothing is 100% efficient.

They have regenerative braking though.

 

[Cobra]

You're still trying to create energy out of nothing.

Every moving or living thing produces energy one way or another, its harnessing it that's the problem, TP members are good at problem solving

 

[Nod]

Not that good!

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Every moving or living thing produces energy one way or another, its harnessing it that's the problem, TP members are good at problem solving

Converts energy

 

[Cobra]

kinetic energy
noun
PHYSICS

1. energy which a body possesses by virtue of being in motion.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

kinetic energy
noun
PHYSICS

1. energy which a body possesses by virtue of being in motion.

And it can't be in motion without a force being applied. Before that it only has potential energy.

You can convert potential energy into kinetic energy, mechanical into electric etc but you cannot create energy without breaking the laws of physics

 

[Cobra]

but you cannot create energy without breaking the laws of physics

I'm not trying to create it, I still say there must be a way to harness it, ( some of it) once the vehicle is in motion.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I'm not trying to create it, I still say there must be a way to harness it, ( some of it) once the vehicle is in motion.

Yes, you could add a dynamo, which you would need to add friction to to power. Which would then need more power to travel at the same speed, and the amount generated would be less than the amount needed to overcome the friction.

 

[Cobra]

Yes, you could add a dynamo,

I just used "Dynamo" as an example they may well be more modern technology to recover the electricity, who knows?
I don't, that's why I posed the question in the first place...

and the amount generated would be less than the amount needed to overcome the friction.

Curious .. and the formula to prove this?

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I just used "Dynamo" as an example they may well be more modern technology to recover the electricity, who knows?
I don't, that's why I posed the question in the first place...



Curious .. and the formula to prove this?

Because for it to generate more, it would have to be more than 100% efficient

 

[Nod]

'Tis a law of physics.

If you can find one of the hub centre dynamos rather than the horrendously inefficient tyre rubber type, see what a difference putting some load on the dynamo makes rather than it running at no load. Or disconnect the alternator on your car and see how much more power it produces on a dyno. In any mechanical system, friction causes heat which is where the extra energy goes. Even a near frictionless system (air hockey table?) will have a limit on how far the puck moves and that's pretty much just air resistance as a power draw.

 

[Cobra]

If you can find one of the hub centre dynamos rather than the horrendously inefficient tyre rubber type,

And they were invented when? late 1800's at a guess?
over 200 years later I can't believe that technology hasn't come up with a better more efficient system,

Because for it to generate more, it would have to be more than 100% efficient

I'm not suggesting that it would / could be more than a 100% efficient, but as before I still can't believe the technology after 200 odd years, isn't there, to say trickle charge as it moves,
and replace some of the lost power

 

[Nod]

SOME being the operative word! Regenerative braking (as used in some electric cars IIRC) is an example of SOME energy being recovered. However, to produce energy costs that amount of energy + the energy lost to friction so it's not really practicable to recover energy while the vehicle is at a stead speed. I'm sure Nilagin will be along soon and tell us in more detail how Ford manage to do it...

 

[Nod]

Alternators are a better and more efficient system than dynamos, hence dynamos being rather rare on cars these days!

 

[Cobra]

I'm sure Nilagin will be along soon and tell us in more detail how Ford manage to do it...

Of course they can they are Flawed Ford

Alternators are a better and more efficient system than dynamos,

See, we've already moved into the 1970's I wonder what another 40 years may bring in terms of advancement ?

 

[Nod]

Solar trickle chargers are probably the closest thing to summat fer nowt - at a price!

I wish there was a way of improving efficiency, especially in big petrol V8s! (or even relatively small ones!)

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

And they were invented when? late 1800's at a guess?
over 200 years later I can't believe that technology hasn't come up with a better more efficient system,


I'm not suggesting that it would / could be more than a 100% efficient, but as before I still can't believe the technology after 200 odd years, isn't there, to say trickle charge as it moves,
and replace some of the lost power

So if you add a dynamo, or equivalent, that's 99% efficient, you'll only lose power 1% faster than if you didn't try to recover it.

The energy is being used up, either as heat, or converted to kinetic energy (forward motion). You can't take energy back out of the system unless you put more in. You can make it more efficient, reducing the amount lost as heat etc. But to drive any form of generator, will lose more energy than not having one, it's simple physics.

 

[Cobra]

But to drive any form of generator, will lose more energy than not having one, it's simple physics.

We've all done the school boy "tricks" of producing electricity by spinning wire through magnets etc. at schoolboy level.
Yes out put is "Us" and it'd never light a house, little out put for little return, wire flying round a drive shaft with magnets, in its simplest form will still produce a decent out put.
In its simplest form, the drive shafts / prop shaft of a car are turning anyway, the magnets are static, there is no drag.

 

[Nod]

Yes, there is. A little electric motor (DC) will produce a small current/voltage when spun by hand but you can feel the resistance that the magnetic field interacting with the windings of the motor/dynamo introduces.

 

[Cobra]

Yes, there is. A little electric motor (DC) will produce a small current/voltage when spun by hand but you can feel the resistance that the magnetic field interacting with the windings of the motor/dynamo introduces.

Oh well I still don't get it, but as I'm never likely to own a electric powered car, its Cu ins all the way for me,
its largely an irrelevant exercise .. someone will figure out how to, at some point, no doubt ...

 

[LongLensPhotography]

There's hope diesel and over 100g/km cars will be taxed to oblivion with the future emission test and more EV incentives introduced. This transition is happening painfully slow.

The new tax scheme does anything but that. It taxes all cars equally, including all hybrids, and in addition loads premium on anything more expensive. Even Teslas will cost ridiculous money, while I could buy a new Mustang V8 and pay £140 per year. I am not saying it makes much sense this way, just stating the fact. I will be truly delighted to buy an X5 diesel in 5 years time and pay just £140 tax. Really can't wait.

 

[OldCarlos]

how do you think British Gas are funding their free daytime electricity for weekend scheme?

Is that BG the charity ...... or BG the business?

Very little is `free` in this life & I suggest every customer is subsidising that scheme with their monthly bills.

 

[OldCarlos]

As for petrol prices, I blame the weak pound sterling. I would not be surprised to see record high prices next year when the real s***storm hits the fan with triggering of a certain article.

Obviously fluctuating currencies have effects, but OPEC were planning production cuts too. (as were Russia, but they probably can't afford to)

$115 in 1980, $150 in 2008? Prices in 2015 were higher than it is now. Even before the 2008 global financial crisis prices were around 50% higher! 'kin brexit

 

[Nod]

We've all done the school boy "tricks" of producing electricity by spinning wire through magnets etc. at schoolboy level.
Yes out put is "Us" and it'd never light a house, little out put for little return, wire flying round a drive shaft with magnets, in its simplest form will still produce a decent out put.
In its simplest form, the drive shafts / prop shaft of a car are turning anyway, the magnets are static, there is no drag.

Have a look at https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/mitsubishi-outlander.638774/#post-7607588 which is effectively what you suggest.

 

[wyx087]

The new tax scheme does anything but that. It taxes all cars equally, including all hybrids, and in addition loads premium on anything more expensive. Even Teslas will cost ridiculous money, while I could buy a new Mustang V8 and pay £140 per year. I am not saying it makes much sense this way, just stating the fact. I will be truly delighted to buy an X5 diesel in 5 years time and pay just £140 tax. Really can't wait.

Indeed, the new car tax scheme makes no sense. Hence I am *hoping* there will be a new diesel tax or high emission tax. The new tax scheme is sold as road tax, for repairing the road.

Obviously fluctuating currencies have effects, but OPEC were planning production cuts too. (as were Russia, but they probably can't afford to)

$115 in 1980, $150 in 2008? Prices in 2015 were higher than it is now. Even before the 2008 global financial crisis prices were around 50% higher! 'kin brexit

So you are explaining the drop in pound sterling value by equating it to oil prices? Where 1 GBP went from stable worth of around 10 CNY between 2010 to 2016, to worth around 8 CNY within the last few month. Funny how before financial crisis, 1 GBP was worth over 14 CNY. There's undeniably similarities.

But I'm no expert. To me, all it means is that I can buy less stuff overseas, money in my pocket is worth a lot less than it used to be. Living cost is going up and it will continue to go up for next few years until uncertainty stops.

 

[srichards]

Diesels will be taxed off the roads in other ways. The London ULEZ doubles the congestion charge on most diesels more or less.

A flat rate VED really had to be introduced as it was noticed in the second hand car market the higher tax cars were basically being scrapped when they weren't that old. Which is what a lot of people said would happen. First owners are well off. By the time you get to the average 4th owner they aren't. Having a £500 car which costs £500 to tax is never going to be anything other a drive to a scrapyard or get driven illegally. £140 is reasonable. It will be interesting to see how long it stays at that and whether it is increased over time and whether EVs also end up paying VED.

A lot of roads are in diabolical condition so road tax really needs to be spent on roads. Most journeys are by road and most goods arrive by road so it needs the money to be spent.