FPOTY 2021 Discussion Thread

RaglanSurf

RaglanSurf

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So we're coming towards the end of this interesting year, it's certainly been a challenge and not just photographically and it's time to look ahead to FPOTY 2021.

This is the place to post all your thoughts, musings and ideas for next year's competition.

Also, as I will be stepping down from the FPOTY El Presidente' position it's the place to put your hand up if you'd like to volunteer to do the FPOTY admin.
 
Agreed. Thanks for your work on it Nick as well as putting up with all the sarcasm....
 
As others have said thanks for your efforts Nick ( even if slack sometimes :exit:)......It's not a 'job' that i would like to take on board, in fact i doubt that i could come close to keeping up to the standards that both you and those who have previously occupied them selves with the position, have managed.

Well done;).....after December we'll let you have a rest from it! :ROFLMAO:
 
Thanks for your hard work Nick. It's been a difficult year but, with a bit of imagination and creative use of the shoehorn, there have been some great entries.

Looking forward to seeing who will volunteer to do the 2021 comp. (y)
 
Asha said:
It's not a 'job' that i would like to take on board, in fact i doubt that i could come close to keeping up to the standards that both you and those who have previously occupied them selves with the position, have managed.
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Well I'm out also as it has to be someone respectable and hasn't upset anyone :)
 
To echo the comments above, thanks Nick, I've enjoyed the challenge of this years themes and they have made me put in much, much more work this year than previous years so well done (I think).

I've been pondering throughout the year what is actually going on with the voting and have come to the conclusion that having lots of votes per voter just muddies the water. I don't know about others but I find that if there are 4 or 5 votes then I end up giving people "sympathy" (for want of a better word) votes because there are usually only a few really stand-out photos. I know the option is there to not cast all allocated votes but that also feels a bit unfair.

I'm probably over-analysing this, I usually do, but I am prepared to put my time where my mouth is and step up to organise it next year on the basis of:
  • 2 votes per person
  • I will choose a reasonable list of themes with possible Covid constraints in mind, probably taken from Takes On Theme Suggestions
  • No misery moth mystery month
  • You get points equal to the number of votes you receive, or may be two points for each vote?
I'm open to suggestions on the above, particularly around points but really would not want to go to more than 3 votes per voter.

Things certainly seem to be tailing off in terms of the number of entries, I guess it could just be covid confusion and people might get back into the swing of it next year? But any ideas around getting the number of entries up would be welcome.
 
sirch said:
To echo the comments above, thanks Nick, I've enjoyed the challenge of this years themes and they have made me put in much, much more work this year than previous years so well done (I think).

I've been pondering throughout the year what is actually going on with the voting and have come to the conclusion that having lots of votes per voter just muddies the water. I don't know about others but I find that if there are 4 or 5 votes then I end up giving people "sympathy" (for want of a better word) votes because there are usually only a few really stand-out photos. I know the option is there to not cast all allocated votes but that also feels a bit unfair.

I'm probably over-analysing this, I usually do, but I am prepared to put my time where my mouth is and step up to organise it next year on the basis of:
  • 2 votes per person
  • I will choose a reasonable list of themes with possible Covid constraints in mind, probably taken from Takes On Theme Suggestions
  • No misery moth mystery month
  • You get points equal to the number of votes you receive, or may be two points for each vote?
I'm open to suggestions on the above, particularly around points but really would not want to go to more than 3 votes per voter.

Things certainly seem to be tailing off in terms of the number of entries, I guess it could just be covid confusion and people might get back into the swing of it next year? But any ideas around getting the number of entries up would be welcome.
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Personally I think your modification in rules inc the points ( one per vote/ max two votes ) are spot on.(y)
As to wether or not I will be up for participating is to be seen. I’m struggling to finish this year having already missed last month :(
 
sirch said:
I am prepared to step up to organise it next year
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Super.

I don't care about points.
I actually quite liked having lots of votes because there are generally more images I like than I can vote for. Often I would look through the thread, decide on what I liked, then get to the end and discover I had likes-2 votes :( 2 votes each only will make life very difficult! It would be cool if you could have a 1-2-3(-4-5-6) vote where your 1st place would score more points than 2nd and third and fourth etc etc. Not sure the forum has the mechanism for this though. Thinking it through, it would probably be a nightmare.

I guess one has to ask the question - why don't some of the F&C regulars enter the current competition every month? And if the answer is (as it is for me) "I have no time because Life", then nothing short of a million pounds a month prize is going to get more entrants.

For me, it's not about winning, it's about being involved in a communal thing once a month. I find the work of the majority of film photographers on here to be inspirational, and there is a curious mix of demoralisation ("I'll never be as good as that") as well as inspiration ("Wow. that was a great idea!") and forehead slapping ("why didn't I think of that!"). Needless to say, the competition enriches my perspective and vision which can only be a good thing for me. I also think the voting is very reasonable (i.e. the good photos tend to win IMO)

I guess my thinking is that it doesn't have to be massively subscribed to be successful.

Either way, I'll give it a whirl. THanks for putting your hand up Chris.
 
Harlequin565 said:
I don't care about points.
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Somewhat unfortunately it's the nature of the beast. If we really wanted to get radical we could post photos for a month followed by a week of crit and then vote on who gave the best crit, not the photos :)

I suspect that would kill it off :D
 
sirch said:
...................
  • 2 votes per person
..............
  • You get points equal to the number of votes you receive, or may be two points for each vote?
.............

I'm open to suggestions on the above, particularly around points but really would not want to go to more than 3 votes per voter.

Things certainly seem to be tailing off in terms of the number of entries, I guess it could just be covid confusion and people might get back into the swing of it next year? But any ideas around getting the number of entries up would be welcome.
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I think up to 3 votes per person is a good compromise and the way the polls work you do not have to allocate all your votes if you dont think any others deserve a vote.

Points equal to votes might be an idea but I am trying to think about other options to provide an incentive to enter.

One option to encourage entries - how about 1st place each month gets as many points as entries [n] and places [p] below 1st get n-(p-1) points , that way everyone who bothers to enter gets at least 1 point and competition would be tighter through the year. So 10 entries - 1st place gets 10 points , 2nd 9 points, 3rd equal 8 points, 5th 6 points and so on.

Throws idea into wind to see if it will fly.
 
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Nicely volunteered Chris.... My thoughts are and have always been that if you organise it you get to decide the rules, however I tend towards 3 votes per month being a good compromise as I nearly always find more entries I like than votes I have.
 
Well just some observations:- I think adding likes to an entry is a bit silly as I've noticed that I've had quite a few likes in a few of my entries (that's encouraging(y)) but at the end no one votes for me :rolleyes:.ban likes?o_O I dunno.
Also it would be nice if FPOTY 2021 started now as the first few months are the worst. And of course it would be nice if more entries but just think if say fifty entered :eek: would that be a problem...............
 
I've only managed a couple (I think) of entries this year due to work and covid restrictions, and bob around the bottom of the table regardless, but I enjoy the challenge and it encourages use of the film cameras. I think 3 votes max is a good idea. However I do like the giving of "likes" as I rarely get points, so that is the compensation, although I do tend to agree with Brian that Likes don't seem to make Points.
 
Kudos to @sirch for taking this on and I'm happy with whatever Chris decides as the best way forward. (y)

Having said that, I think 3 votes is a solid number even though we're not allocating them as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and there's no compulsion to actually award that amount if you don't want to. I'm with Lindsay rather than Brian on Likes, since entering a photo in FPOTY shouldn't prevent a viewer from showing appreciation even if they are not voting for it..

Increasing the numbers entering and voting would seem to be the really hard part, since knowing the topics well in advance should help those who don't shoot much film, but doesn't seem to do this? I confess that I have a topic list on my phone, yet still find myself working on a month-to-month basis and not planning far enough ahead, even though I have more time than those who are still working. I also take more/better photos when I'm away from home for a few days, but that has been severely curtailed this year and I've struggled with being over familiar with my local area.

A few more people have entered into the F&C spirit over the past year, so maybe we can encourage them to join in somehow, either by entering or voting. I know that the Disposable challenge had only a few entrants, but I would hope that was Covid-related and will be better next year.
 
Just back from a few days in the highlands and 800 miles of driving so might not be thinking straight but thought I'd better look in on what I had started :)

dmb said:
One option to encourage entries - how about 1st place each month gets as many points as entries [n] and places [p] below 1st get n-(p-1) points
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I appreciate the thinking David but I'm not really keen on encouraging a race to post.

Lindsay56 said:
However I do like the giving of "likes" as I rarely get points, so that is the compensation,
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How about any post with any number of likes gets two points, so unless someone posted something really offensive or upsets everyone (glances briefly in the direction of @excalibur2 :) ), pretty much every month everyone would start off with two points?

I don't even think it's possible to ban likes.

Peter B said:
I confess that I have a topic list on my phone
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This year I wrote them on a piece of paper and put them in my wallet, I'm still working month to month :facepalm:
 
...and Chris (Sirch) without looking if feasable.....maybe there could be a set spread sheet passed my mail so all you do is change the names and also change poll results to.....every 2 or 3 months to make things easier for any volunteers.
And for likes:- e.g the first few entries members could like, then someone posts a cracker, then they would think to themselves "h'mm the others are a bit crappy compared to this entry" but being a fairly polite forum you can't very well take the likes off the crappy ones. But then if they did take the likes off (the crappy ones) and they all went to the cracker it could sway the voting if undecided to whom to vote for. o_O :)
 
I'm not sure about giving points for Likes though,; I feel Likes are applauding the effort rather than relating to the comparison of resulting images. I can live with not getting votes if my images are less good than others, but it's nice to get Likes which recognise that I have tried and achieved an ok image even if not as good as Andy's or Mrs Snap's etc. So I would be perfectly content with Likes and Votes/Points being entirely separate as at present.
 
Lindsay56 said:
I'm not sure about giving points for Likes though,; I feel Likes are applauding the effort rather than relating to the comparison of resulting images. I can live with not getting votes if my images are less good than others, but it's nice to get Likes which recognise that I have tried and achieved an ok image even if not as good as Andy's or Mrs Snap's etc. So I would be perfectly content with Likes and Votes/Points being entirely separate as at present.
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Well I don't give likes in comps because I don't know what I like unless I see all the entries together, but of course the final choice is in the voting and would be silly if there was a button for like, like more and like most.
H'mm maybe the likes for my entries is a sorta charitable like because I bothered to enter :D
 
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dmb said:
Think you misunderstood - not 1st to post but the one with most votes = 1st place
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Sorry I did misread your original post. TBH I was originally sceptical about this years system with first place getting so many more points than second, third, etc, however it does have the advantage of actually keeping the competition open, currently with just 3 months to go, any one in the top eleven could still win whereas in previous years with more linear points allocations by about halfway through it was unlikely that anyone but the top few could win.

Unless someone comes up with a very good reason not to I am inclined to give points equal to twice the number of votes received which I think would give a similar number of points per place as this year. The only problem with that is that it leaves someone with no votes out of the points hence my suggestion about points for likes, which is, to all intents and purposes, the same as getting a point for entering. Just to be clear I am suggesting two points (or may be just one) for any number of likes, it gives the community a bit more control than just a point for entering. For example if someone gets one vote and 1 or more "likes" they would get 2x1vote + 2 = 4 points. If someone gets 10 votes and 1 or more likes they would get 2x10votes + 2 = 22 points.

Typing that out has firmed up my thinking and I am strongly inclined to go with that. We've got a bit of time yet so can mull it over more but I am planning to get the list of themes up at the start of November to give people thinking time for photos from December onwards and will post firm details at the same time.
 
h'mm Chris points for likes can only work if members are ruthless as in my neg space entry I knew it wasn't going to get anywhere but that's all I had and thought better to enter something than not..so the voting was correct erm but I received 6 likes when in my opinion should have received none.
 
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I'll be honest Brian, I like all the entries because I don't want to be rude and like some but not others. Other people like none for the same reason. I personally think we should keep the likes out of it as it just muddies the waters.
 
Andysnap said:
I'll be honest Brian, I like all the entries because I don't want to be rude and like some but not others. Other people like none for the same reason. I personally think we should keep the likes out of it as it just muddies the waters.
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Well I agree....keep points for likes out.
 
excalibur2 said:
Well I agree....keep points for likes out.
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Andysnap said:
I'll be honest Brian, I like all the entries because I don't want to be rude and like some but not others. Other people like none for the same reason. I personally think we should keep the likes out of it as it just muddies the waters.
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:plus1:


Tbh, much as likes have a place, I feel that often they lack content as there is rarely feedback as to why one likes.

Don't get me wrong, they have a place but personally i wish that people would make more effort ( like we used to before likes?) to express what it is specificaly that pleases them in a given image without having to post in a critic thread.

Even in the FPOTY, such dicussion can be had in the relavent 'discussion' thread.
 
Well volunteered, Chris @sirch . I've just come to this thread (doing other things for a few days), and as I was reading the early posts I was thinking, I'm going to have to volunteer for this! Thankfully you've saved me the trouble. Maybe if I'm still alive (!) I can volunteer for 22...

I think it's worth checking out why we got to the current voting situation. I think it was @Carl Hall 's first year that it changed. I'm relying on memory rather than going back to check, but I think with only 3 votes no matter how many entries, there were a lot of people getting no or very few votes, and getting upset. The current system was devised to spread the "love" around a bit, and I think it's been quite good. I haven't always used all the votes available, depending on what I think about the photos and the theme. But everyone has different approaches. Anyway, IMHO the current voting system works well, and I'd prefer we kept it.

(I participated in every available round of POTY and FPOTY from 2013 to the middle of this year. I think I got a lot out of it, and I'm grateful to those organising the competitions. I stopped suddenly this year because I discovered I was caring more than I should about the votes, and my "mental health" was going into a bit of a spin when an image I was pleased with got very few votes. Rationally, I know why this can happen even with a "quite good" image, but it didn't make any difference. So I decided to take a break. I'm not sure if I'll participate next year in terms of submitting images, but I'll try to participate in other ways, including this discussion, and voting.)
 
OK, the number of votes was changed for the 2018 POTY. The issues was first mentioned by Janet @Mrs Snap in this post in the 2017 discussion thread: https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...-the-year-2017-discussion.643238/post-7937496

It was discussed more in the first post (and maybe subsequent posts) of Carl's discussion thread about the 2018
www.talkphotography.co.uk

FILM Photographer of the Year 2018 - Thoughts and Ideas

Now that the end is in sight for the 2017 FPOTY competition, it’s probably about the right sort of time to start ironing out the details or changes for next year. 2017 Feedback As this was the first time I’ve ever ran anything like this, everything was a bit of a stab in the dark and I pretty...
www.talkphotography.co.uk www.talkphotography.co.uk

I think Carl's reasoning is pretty good, particularly relating it to the number of entries that get points...
 
ChrisR said:
I've just come to this thread (doing other things for a few days), and as I was reading the early posts I was thinking, I'm going to have to volunteer for this!
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Well if you are keen to organise it, I'll happily defer to your greater experience :) As I said in post #10 if I run it the rules will be as discussed above and I have suggested a way of effectively giving points for entering.

I sympathise with the sense of disappointment when one has worked hard to take a photo only for it to get few votes, I know I've been very disapointed sometimes and I'm sure we all experience that but I am really sorry to hear that it made you drop out this year Chris. For me that is where discussion and critique is really valuable, unless we discuss images we will never know what others do and don't see in them but most of the F&C crowd do not seem to want to engage in that sort of thing.
 
sirch said:
For me that is where discussion and critique is really valuable, unless we discuss images we will never know what others do and don't see in them but most of the F&C crowd do not seem to want to engage in that sort of thing
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Well the problem is we all have different views and while we can agree on colour casts or too bright etc and the subject......how the shot is presented (and cough what camera used :rolleyes: ) can be debatable.
 
excalibur2 said:
Well the problem is we all have different views and while we can agree on colour casts or too bright etc and the subject......how the shot is presented (and cough what camera used :rolleyes: ) can be debatable.
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That's not a problem at all, it's the interesting thing about seeing other people's photos and an opportunity to learn and grow. If someone is concerned as to why what they see as a good photograph is not recognised by other people then the only way to know is to ask, surely?
 
sirch said:
That's not a problem at all, it's the interesting thing about seeing other people's photos and an opportunity to learn and grow. If someone is concerned as to why what they see as a good photograph is not recognised by other people then the only way to know is to ask, surely?
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Well I'm probably exaggerating problems and newbies should always be encourage with kind remarks, but some one presenting a shot that turned that person on or say a crappy pinhole shot and asks "what do you think"..I would give a like for achieving something different but would have to learn to keep my fingers off the keyboard to what I really thought o_O:D
 
excalibur2 said:
but some one presenting ... a crappy pinhole shot and asks "what do you think"
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Probably shouldn't derail this thread and I might ask the mods to move these posts if it goes on but ...
The picture in my avatar is a crappy pinhole shot, the Spam tin IS the camera, it is taking a "selfie" in a mirror. I converted the Spam can into a pinhole camera, cut a piece of colour 120 film, fitted it inside and took the "crappy" shot. So go on, what do you think?
 
sirch said:
Probably shouldn't derail this thread and I might ask the mods to move these posts if it goes on but ...
The picture in my avatar is a crappy pinhole shot, the Spam tin IS the camera, it is taking a "selfie" in a mirror. I converted the Spam can into a pinhole camera, cut a piece of colour 120 film, fitted it inside and took the "crappy" shot. So go on, what do you think?
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Hey blame Asha in #30 :)
 
Chris FWIW I thought your series on tin can pinhole selfies was really innovative and experimental and remarkable successful image-wise, and I applaud you now as I did then for all that. And the images were fun too.
 
Lindsay56 said:
Chris FWIW I thought your series on tin can pinhole selfies was really innovative and experimental and remarkable successful image-wise, and I applaud you now as I did then for all that. And the images were fun too.
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There you go for critique we can't all agree and there is a difference between an experienced pinhole user and one that is not and was amazed recently on a shot posted using a very old Kodak Brownie.
 
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