Full frame questions (Canon RP / Sony A7c / A7ii) help and advice needed

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Dylanlewis2000

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Dylan
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Dear all,

I have used crop sensors for years. Since my daughter was born (4 months ago) I have been borrowing a friend's 5d classic and I'm just blown away by the difference in image quality. My 50mm f1.8 is attached all the time, and it just seems to get dreamy photos.

I have borrowed a Sony A4600 and whilst it's a great camera, it just seems to be missing the full frame dreamyness that the 5D captures and produces. I am contemplating changing cameras and getting something that is full frame, however, this is where I'm at a bit of a loss. I don't mind changing systems and moving over to Sony (I've heard good things about the A7 series) but I'm a little unsure if this is the best route. The camera will mainly be used for holidays, days out and snaps around the house.

I have the following lenses for my 400d
  1. 18-200 I know this will not fit on a full frame
  2. 24mm pancake - again, won't fit
  3. 150mm f2.8 Sigma Macro (very sharp)
  4. 100-300 f4 Sigma (very sharp)
  5. 50mm f1.8
I have seen that with the Sonys you can get mounts which will convert from Sony to CAF, is this worthwhile? I don't tend to use the 100-300 much any more as it got to a point where it was very heavy and like some of my camera equipment it stays at home when I go for a day out, unless I go somewhere with a specific use in mind.

My requirements are thus:
  1. Small and light, something that is easy to carry around. I don't want to carry around a big weight.
  2. Full frame
  3. Good in low light - ISO 1600 on the 5D vs 400D is just totally different. I have been taking a lot more indoor shots. The 6400 will quite happily ramp up the ISO but it does produce a lot of noise. The 5d seems to handle noise much better.
  4. Fast auto focus (although the old 5d seems to hit the mark better than the 400d) the Sony is very impressive.
  5. 4k video ideally 30 fps as I find 24/25 just a bit jittery, however my budget might not stretch.

What i've seen so far:

Canon RP - This was the first contender, however there are many conflicting reviews, some are saying it's great, others are slating it. I'm sure every camera gets some bad press but the RP seems to get a bit more. I understand Canon have limited the video on it somewhat, plus it doesn't have in body stabilisation (how good is this?). The walk around lens that is suggested is 24-105 but stops down to f7 at the long end which seems concerning; what's high ISO like on it. I have seen these advertised £799 second hand.

Sony A7ii & A7Rii - I looked at these cameras a few years ago and thought they packed a lot of bang per buck. The A7Rii has 4kand a huge pixel count, is aside from storage is there any downside to this? I have seen the A7ii for around £600 and the R for £900. What's drawn me towards the A7ii is the price, it seems a good piece of kit for the money.

Sony A7C - This has caught my eye. It comes in over my budget, but second hand they seem to be going for around £1400 which would be a stretch but do-able. The 28-60 kit lens seems nice and small. However, I'm not entirely convinced that it's going to be worth me spending the extra when I'm delighted with what a 2008 Canon 5d produces, hence why the A7ii was on the list.

Thoughts, ideas, all welcome. Have I missed anything obvious? My daughter is about to start crawling, and I would like to capture as many special moments over the coming years. A friend recommended the A7C has he has a A7 and is smitten. Will the full frame Sony be the same as a full frame Canon? Help, advice, sample photos, anything welcome.
 
it sounds like the main difference in the images is coming from the field of view, and the wide-open aperture of the 50mm? the 50mm on a full-frame sensor is a wider field of view than on a crop sensor.

if you're happy with canon then moving to RP, with an adapter for your current lenses that will work, is a sensible choice. moving to sony would mean trading in all your current kit and learning the new system.
 
TimHughes said:
it sounds like the main difference in the images is coming from the field of view, and the wide-open aperture of the 50mm? the 50mm on a full-frame sensor is a wider field of view than on a crop sensor.

if you're happy with canon then moving to RP, with an adapter for your current lenses that will work, is a sensible choice. moving to sony would mean trading in all your current kit and learning the new system.
Click to expand...
Hi Tim,

Thank you for your reply. You helped me out on another thread, about video, hence how the school ended up with the A6400.

I don't mind learning a new system, and lens wise, both will need adapters in order form them to work. My main thing with the Sony system was that it has IBIS inside, therefore any lens would be stabilised. I know this doesn't work with fast moving objects like babies, but it's nice to have, especially as my Sigmas do not have optical stabilisation.
 
Dylanlewis2000 said:
Hi Tim,

Thank you for your reply. You helped me out on another thread, about video, hence how the school ended up with the A6400.

I don't mind learning a new system, and lens wise, both will need adapters in order form them to work. My main thing with the Sony system was that it has IBIS inside, therefore any lens would be stabilised. I know this doesn't work with fast moving objects like babies, but it's nice to have, especially as my Sigmas do not have optical stabilisation.
Click to expand...
Hi Dylan, good to know. A couple of follow-ups:
- when adapting lenses, for the canon option your current lenses will work perfectly, with Sony they won't
- image stabilization is available with more advanced canon models
 
Hi Dylan, As someone who has had the A7ii and A7Rii (still use this one) I can say both bodies are great. I really like the cropability of the R2.

I've had Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Fuji & Olympus in the past but the Sonys are the best bodies I've ever used and can't see myself changing anytime soon.

You should be able to get a good A7Rii for less than £900 though, think mine was £750 off here.
 
I just wanted to add something about more modern cameras.

I had a 5D and at the time I thought it was the best camera I'd ever had and that I'd never need a better one. These days I have a FF Sony A7 and Micro Four Thirds cameras and IMO the MFT cameras beat the old 5D for image quality and you can use them at much higher ISO's allowing hand held photography in more scenarios but of course for the same framing MFT and APS-C do lack the ability FF gives for shallow DoF if very thin DoF is your aim.

So Dylan, if you do end up going for a more modern FF camera I'm pretty sure you're going to see a significant improvement in image quality and you'll retain the shallow DoF ability you like.

Good luck with it, I think you're in for a treat :D
 
@woof woof & @GreenNinja67 - Thank you both for your responses. I've seen that prices have steadily risen in the second hand market (it's always the wrong time for me to buy!!!).

I've done a bit more reading into both the Canon and the Sony. From comparisons online, it seems the Sony sensors tend to output images which are slightly on the green side. No issue really as this can be easily corrected in post.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, third party lens support seems to be much bigger with the Sony mount, which is totally strange. Sigma and Tamron both support FE and F mounts, whereas there are reports on the internet that says Sigma is not really interested in the RP mount, however, it's still early days, as the Sony mount has been out for far longer.

@GreenNinja67 is the battery life really as bad as they say it is on the Rii? Do you have any RAW samples you would be willing to share, in particular high ISO samples? What's the 4K video like on it? I think the video (4k 30) is the same as the A7C.

My main thing with this is quality and a bit of weight saving. The smaller and lighter the body, the better.
 
Dylanlewis2000 said:
Secondly, and probably more importantly, third party lens support seems to be much bigger with the Sony mount, which is totally strange. Sigma and Tamron both support FE and F mounts, whereas there are reports on the internet that says Sigma is not really interested in the RP mount, however, it's still early days, as the Sony mount has been out for far longer.
Click to expand...

One issue is that Sony provide the third party makers with mount information whereas Canon and Nikon traditionally don't and the likes of Sigma and Tamron may need to back engineer those mounts leading to additional costs and potential compatibility issues which might just put them off.
 
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Dylanlewis2000 said:
@woof woof & @GreenNinja67 - Thank you both for your responses. I've seen that prices have steadily risen in the second hand market (it's always the wrong time for me to buy!!!).

I've done a bit more reading into both the Canon and the Sony. From comparisons online, it seems the Sony sensors tend to output images which are slightly on the green side. No issue really as this can be easily corrected in post.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, third party lens support seems to be much bigger with the Sony mount, which is totally strange. Sigma and Tamron both support FE and F mounts, whereas there are reports on the internet that says Sigma is not really interested in the RP mount, however, it's still early days, as the Sony mount has been out for far longer.

@GreenNinja67 is the battery life really as bad as they say it is on the Rii? Do you have any RAW samples you would be willing to share, in particular high ISO samples? What's the 4K video like on it? I think the video (4k 30) is the same as the A7C.

My main thing with this is quality and a bit of weight saving. The smaller and lighter the body, the better.
Click to expand...
Happy to try & help Dylan.

I don't find the battery an issue myself. I'm not a wedding or sports photographer (although have done these in the past) so don't need a battery that will last 1000's of shots.
I have 5 batteries for the R2 (2 Sony and 3 third party) and on a weekend landscape session (including low light & night shots) have not needed more than 2 charged batteries.
If you're worried about this get a third party grip so you can use 2 batteries - it's what I do).

As for the green cast I imagine you're referencing jpeg images out of the camera. I only use RAW so couldn't comment on that although on the back of the screen I haven't noticed any green cast at all in comparison with other makes.

When you say high ISO what do you mean? How high is high to you? For me anything over 400 ISO is high as I really hate noise. Topaz DeNoise AI is an amazing product so if you want great really high ISO images invest in that I'd say. I did & didn't regret it.

This is a shot at 1000 ISO without DeNoise.
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2ju8Fe9]Wookey Hole by Terence Rees, on Flickr[/URL]


https://flic.kr/p/2ju8Fe9
View: https://flic.kr/p/2ju8Fe9



The files are so large I doubt I'd be any to share any over email.


The following shot is at 6400 ISO but has been through Topax DeNoise AI.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jokCFA]Comet NEOWISE by Terence Rees, on Flickr[/URL]



Hope this helps in your decision.

Terry.
 
I can't help with specifics on the Sonys, but I've got a Canon RP and find it to be great.
Prior to this I had the 6D, which is (as pointed out above) similar to the 5D classic, but newer, with much better high iso capabilities. I never had a problem shooting at ISO 6400 or more.
The RP is great. It's smaller and lighter than the DSLRs, lighter than the a7II and nearly as light as the a6400.
Take a look at the spec comparison here
I traded my EF 50mm 1.4 lens for the RF 50mm f1.8 so that I could avoid using the adapter and the combination of RF and 50mm is great. Small and light and really good quality images.
I don't miss having IBIS in the RP, but then I don't shoot video.
High ISO on the RP is just as good as the 6D, I'd happily shoot at ISO 6400 or 8000.
I do have the RF 24-105 f4 L, which is constant f4, rather than the cheaper RF 24-105 STM which as you say is f7 at the long end. If that really bothers you, you could buy an older EF 24-105 f4 L (about £300) and put it on an adapter. But I found this combination a bit cumbersome, hence one reason I switched to the RF version.
Overall the RP is a great camera, especially when you can get it for £700ish. It's not going to blow anyone away with the fastest frame rate or AF (particularly with wildlife). It's good and competant. The facilities are decent too with flip-out screen, wifi, touch af, 26mp...

You've got to work out what you need out of a camera and what specs to prioritise on.

One thing that's worth doing is trying out the Canon, you can do this for free using their Test Drive service. There's no commitment to buy and you can borrow a body and a couple of lenses to test for 2 days.

canontestdrive-uk.com - This website is for sale! - canontestdrive uk Resources and Information.

This website is for sale! canontestdrive-uk.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, canontestdrive-uk.com has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!
www.canontestdrive-uk.com www.canontestdrive-uk.com

I did this before buying my RP and have used it since to test out other lenses.
I'm not sure if Sony have a similar thing, but I think Fuji do.
 
GreenNinja67 said:
Happy to try & help Dylan.

I don't find the battery an issue myself. I'm not a wedding or sports photographer (although have done these in the past) so don't need a battery that will last 1000's of shots.
I have 5 batteries for the R2 (2 Sony and 3 third party) and on a weekend landscape session (including low light & night shots) have not needed more than 2 charged batteries.
If you're worried about this get a third party grip so you can use 2 batteries - it's what I do).

As for the green cast I imagine you're referencing jpeg images out of the camera. I only use RAW so couldn't comment on that although on the back of the screen I haven't noticed any green cast at all in comparison with other makes.

When you say high ISO what do you mean? How high is high to you? For me anything over 400 ISO is high as I really hate noise. Topaz DeNoise AI is an amazing product so if you want great really high ISO images invest in that I'd say. I did & didn't regret it.

This is a shot at 1000 ISO without DeNoise.
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2ju8Fe9]Wookey Hole by Terence Rees, on Flickr[/URL]


https://flic.kr/p/2ju8Fe9
View: https://flic.kr/p/2ju8Fe9



The files are so large I doubt I'd be any to share any over email.


The following shot is at 6400 ISO but has been through Topax DeNoise AI.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jokCFA]Comet NEOWISE by Terence Rees, on Flickr[/URL]



Hope this helps in your decision.

Terry.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that. The comet shot does look great at ISO 6400! A few years ago I remember seeing a demonstration of Topaz labs AI noise remover in the NEC in Birmingham and I was impressed. It could be worth a purchase.

@ABTog - Thank you for reminding me about the Canon test drive... I forgot about it to be honest. I'm still very much undecided. I'd love to try both bodies out but no one locally seems to have them.
 
Dylanlewis2000 said:
Dear all,

I have used crop sensors for years. Since my daughter was born (4 months ago) I have been borrowing a friend's 5d classic and I'm just blown away by the difference in image quality. My 50mm f1.8 is attached all the time, and it just seems to get dreamy photos.

I have borrowed a Sony A4600 and whilst it's a great camera, it just seems to be missing the full frame dreamyness that the 5D captures and produces. I am contemplating changing cameras and getting something that is full frame, however, this is where I'm at a bit of a loss. I don't mind changing systems and moving over to Sony (I've heard good things about the A7 series) but I'm a little unsure if this is the best route. The camera will mainly be used for holidays, days out and snaps around the house.
Click to expand...
What does "dreamy" photos mean. It would mean blurred and indistinct to me but what do you mean?

I have a Sony A6600 which has many improvements on the A6400. I have bought the 18-135mm zoom, the 70-350mm zoon and a 35mm f1.8 lens. This 35mm lens is the first fixed focus I have owned for about 20 years and I bought it because it was relatively cheap and thought it might be useful in some very low light situations but have not used it once yet in 15 months. I also bought the adaptor Sony to Canon and it works really well. I bought this because I still wanted to use my expensive Canon Macro lens which does work fine on the Sony body. I can still see a difference between some of my shots taken on the Canon 5D4 compared to the Sony A6600 but that is only due to the slightly lower dynamic range and low noise ability of the Sony but this can easily be coped with in post processing. If I can achieve international Salon standard with a cropped Sony, you should have no problem with your holiday and snaps around the house.

Dave
 
sk66 said:
Just buy a Rokinon 35mm f/1.4 for your 400d and save yourself a lot of money... unless manual focus is too much of a limitation...
Click to expand...

With a DSLR I'd say it is. IMO mirrorless cameras are the things to use manual f1.x lenses on.

YMMV.
 
woof woof said:
With a DSLR I'd say it is. IMO mirrorless cameras are the things to use manual f1.x lenses on.

YMMV.
Click to expand...
You still get focus confirmation with a DSLR. But yeah, with my eyesight these days it would be a bit much for me as well (although I do still have an 85mm f/1.4 Zeiss that is MF only).
 
I used to use mine mostly hyperfocal. With mirrorless I can focus with the magnified view and get pretty good results at wide apertures with peaking.
 
What did you end up getting?

I have ab X100F but it's not good for our newborn. AF is frankly pretty bad unless AF-S

Tried an a6400, AF is amazing but didn't like the output, didn't seem to be an improvement in IQ (35 1.8 used) so returned it

Currently trying out a Fuji X-S10 .. waiting on 35mn 1.4 arriving tomorrow but trying some shots with an adaptor for my old Nikon 50 1.4 AI .. hmm .. wait for the AF lens to try it out properly but ..

I have the option of a Canon RP or a Nikon Z6 - closely priced.

I like the low weight of the canon .. if get the 35 macro

The Nikon comes with the 24-70 f4 but the 28 or 40 are the only ones in my budget to add

So.. a camera to document my baby and greyhound .. RP or Z6??
 
I have both of those (Z6 and an RP) and I hate to say it, but the Z6 is definitely the better option and better bang for your buck. Overaly it's more enjoyable to use too, the ergonomics are just that bit better
 
Appreciate it. Was focussing on the weight a lot but ergonomics important for me - as I have a few hand issues. I will give the Z6 a go next if the Fuji doesn't deliver after I try it with an AF lens. Quite a few affordable primes being added to Z now so it's looking like a decent system.
 
@Harrybeeee thank you for asking! I forgot about this thread as I’ve been busy.

Long story short, I bought a Sony A7C.

I will do a bit more detail when I’m on the computer (easier to type) but I bought the kit lens and a Samyang 35mm f2.8 with it.
 
Dylanlewis2000 said:
@Harrybeeee thank you for asking! I forgot about this thread as I’ve been busy.

Long story short, I bought a Sony A7C.

I will do a bit more detail when I’m on the computer (easier to type) but I bought the kit lens and a Samyang 35mm f2.8 with it.
Click to expand...
I love my A7C the perfect package off performance and size/weight.
I original had the first A7R and vowed to never go bigger again, soon when the newer A7ii and A7Rii went bigger I said no.
Then the C came out which is basically a A7iii+. If like me you mostly use the screen the removal of the EVF hump makes it much smaller in practice. The AF is amazing keeps up with my two children no problem.

My best tip would be set the shutter button as AF-S for ultimate accurate focusing of static subjects. Then set the back button to AF-C with eye tracking. This without changing any settings means you can focus on anything perfectly. One minute doing a landscape the next catching the kids running around.
 
Ahh so, a bit more time.

After spending a lot of time deliberating and thinking 'Do I really need to spend this much money on a new camera?" and looking at the price of the 6D and going back and forth between Nikon, Canon, Sony and even Panasonic at one stage, I thought the reason for me to do this is to save weight and have a smaller package.

I ended up with the Sony A7C with the kit lens (28-60) and the Samyang 35 mm. First impressions, I didn't think the kit lens would be good, but it is! It's very sharp. The only downside is that starting at f4, indoor shots tend to push the ISO up quite high in order to get a fast shutter speed. All the reviews were saying how light the Sony is, maybe I was expecting A6400 lightness, it's about the same as my old Canon 400d, however I still think it's one of the lightest full frame cameras out there.

Initially, I was disappointed with the ISO performance of the Sony. I think it was mainly my expectation that it was going to give noise free photos at ISO 10,000, however I have learnt to manage my expectations and open a blind, or turn a light on to get more light into the frame. At 3200 noise is very well controlled. In comparison to my Canon 400d, it's day and night. At ISO 100, there's no difference.

The Samyang is a bit hit-and-miss. I have found it great in certain situations. Focusing speed is fine, providing whatever I'm focusing on is near the centre of the frame. I have played with the focus modes and sometimes, if there is something towards the edge of the frame (I don't mean right at the edge just towards) the lens was hunt in and out of focus. The same does not happen on the Sony 28-60, which does an excellent job at focusing. I am still getting used to the focusing modes, therefore it could be me. Sometimes I miss the simplicity of the Canon's 9 Autofocus points!

The with the Sony 28-60 is a bit strange as it is a compact lens which needs to be extended before use. You need to twist it, which offers a bit of resistance, before finally popping out. It takes a bit of getting used to, but now it's second nature. I'd love a bit more reach on the long end, however, compromises have to be made. I suppose they could add a bit more reach, however you would probably have an 5.6 -6.3 which wouldn't be great.

I was researching lens adapters as I was hoping to keep a few of my Canon mount lenses; I'm not sure if I am going to be able to keep everything, and might look at replacing my Sigma 100-300 f4 and 150 Macro with something like the Sony 90 mm macro. One thing i'm delighted with is the performance with the performance of the camera with the Canon 50mm. I have a MK2 (plastic) lens, and it's great. It does sometimes hunt for focus, but overall i'm happy, here's a quick example below:


https://flic.kr/p/2nsWSNL
View: https://flic.kr/p/2nsWSNL



I would like to look at getting a lightweight zoom. I am considering the Tamron 28-200 as I've heard excellent reviews about it, however, I had my Canon 400d with their 18-200 attached when on holiday, and found myself switching to the 24 mm pancake due to its weight.

If anyone has any advice/ information they can share about lenses, please feel free.
 
Nice. I love the photos I took on my 5Dc of my eldest when he was a baby, but it was too heavy/bulky and I switched to Fuji, a complete swap, and still haven't got my kit to where I want it. I don't have those special baby photos of my younger son, but the Fuji is great for active toddlers.
 
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