Grey Imports - What are our current feeling?

[Terrywoodenpic]

And because e.bay now allegedly collects/ pays v.a.t that makes them o.k , but they can probably afford to do that due to the fact that there getting a totally illegal income by charging us selling fees on postage that we are paying to send the items .
So I.e you sell a FF camera and lens it’s quite heavy and expensive so has to go special delivery for insurance , costs you the seller around £26 to send ( all hypothetical figures) they are then charging you a fee of circa 10% on that so £2.60 of fees on your own money that you have already paid income tax on . And your moaning about companies that sell you genuine goods at a saving

Vat is always payable on the delivered cost, including fees and postage.

Vat is not payable on sales from private persons unqualified to be vat registered.
Ebay do not charge Vat on private sales only Traders. (I suspect they are obliged to pay vat on their own fees in the same way auctioneers are)

 

[stickytape]

Well it's been interesting to hear these views, but we're now so far into the realms of speculation, I feel it's not really feasible to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Meantime, I'm a happy HDEW customer and I've bought bodies from Panamoz ( whose lens prices are on a par with WEX (IIRC) presumably due to higher import duty and whose customer service is excellent.

Mix and matcch for me! Bought a fair amount of stuff from local/England-based businesses, but then of course but from gray importers too. Swings and roundabouts!

 

[Me²]

Aaaaaaggggghhhhh = 12 pages long now!

Sorry

 

[Dryce]

There are reasons why products are more expensive in the UK and Western countries. Higher wages, higher building occupancy costs being two. Safety and employment legislation are two more.

'UK and Western countries' includes USA and in the example given of importing from the US to UK and payting VAT ...... well below that of the UK.

If I try to buy a camera in my local city the most likely retailer would be ... Wex. And do they operate out of a high street store? No ... a warehouse unit in an industrial estate/business park in a down market area well out of the city centre.

People seem too keen to make excuses for these companies.

 

[taxboy]

And if you buy from B&H and pay the VAT the effective price somewhere in the middle.

So one might assume from that there is a bit of price gouging going on in the UK market for this product.

So which is more moral - the company that gouges - or the company that plays the dodgier grey market game - or the company / individual that plays the honest grey market game and still makes a large saving over the UK gouge price.

My view is the first is most despucable because it will be righteous while gouging, the second is alost as despicable.

That leaves the the third as the more moral choice - it doesn't support either of the first two.

Arguably the most moral choice for a UK customer is to avoid buying the product and choose an alternative supplier that doesn't gouge the UK market. If enough of us followed that practice then the price gouging wouldn't be such an easy option in the first place and collectively we'd all benefit.

I think we have to remember that a company's duty is to its shareholders not its customers. What you describe as price gouging from a customer perspective, a company would view as maximising profits.
We have to remember a new camera / lens for the vast majority is a discretionary purchase. So ultimately the individual has to decide if the price represents value for them. If not a purchase is not made. The grey market exists to take advantage of the varying prices around the world / taxes probably not being accounted for.
The manufacturer is unlikely to be too concerned by the grey market (as it is selling products) until such time as the official stockists make such a fuss and stop purchasing or it devalues the brand in some way

 

[andrewwnbanks]

I have bought so many grey imports. D850, 5D3 and dozens of lenses Including RF £2<<< lenses. Never had a problem and I saved multiple 1000s. For me it’s a no brainer. I use E-infin or Panamoz. Waiting for my 85 1.2 RF arriving tomorrow from Panamax at a saving of £600

 

[Sharps]

I have bought so many grey imports. D850, 5D3 and dozens of lenses Including RF £2<<< lenses. Never had a problem and I saved multiple 1000s. For me it’s a no brainer. I use E-infin or Panamoz. Waiting for my 85 1.2 RF arriving tomorrow from Panamax at a saving of £600

Same here, luckily I haven't had any issues with faults so not tried my luck with the warranty, I've bought second hand items from MPB that were imports and they don't advise they are before hand

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

People seem too keen to make excuses for these companies.

In my considered opinion, one man's "making excuses" is another woman's explaining the realities of the situation...

 

[rob-nikon]

I have bought so many grey imports. D850, 5D3 and dozens of lenses Including RF £2<<< lenses. Never had a problem and I saved multiple 1000s. For me it’s a no brainer. I use E-infin or Panamoz. Waiting for my 85 1.2 RF arriving tomorrow from Panamax at a saving of £600

This was done to death in October. It really doesn’t need to be bought back to life again! Discussions on buying grey imports should be treated the same as the first rule of fight club.

welcome to TP. Its a good place to learn and become involved but a word of warning, if you’re trying to just get your post count up as a new member it doesn’t look good commenting on lots of old threads. Get involved in the new discussions.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

This was done to death in October. It really doesn’t need to be bought back to life again! Discussions on buying grey imports should be treated the same as the first rule of fight club.

welcome to TP. Its a good place to learn and become involved but a word of warning, if you’re trying to just get your post count up as a new member it doesn’t look good commenting on lots of old threads. Get involved in the new discussions.

When did you become a mod?

 

[Cobra]

if you’re trying to just get your post count up as a new member it doesn’t look good commenting on lots of old threads.

And if they are heading for classifieds they still have a long wait

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

And if they are heading for classifieds they still have a long wait

To be fair though, why is it unusual for a new member to be looking through old threads?
That's what I do when I join a new forum....
I suppose time will tell if they're just trying to fit their post count up.....if they don't get scared off before then.

 

[Cobra]

I suppose time will tell if they're just trying to fit their post count up.....

There is usually an ulterior motive for posting in several threads, rapidly, over a few hours, in older threads..
Time will tell on that.

 

[robj20]

There is usually an ulterior motive for posting in several threads, rapidly, over a few hours, in older threads..
Time will tell on that.

Some forums I'm on keep resetting post counts for such people, they either keep posting because that's what they're here for our stop because they want access to sellers sections.

 

[Cobra]

Some forums I'm on keep resetting post counts for such people,

The 30 day wait does put some people off, but then some others make 26 posts in 2 days then RTM "Why can't I post in the sales area...
And then there are those that earned their access and never left the classified section, since they got in there.
You only have to look at some of the. "scores" under their names.
They must save ( have saved) one hell of a lot of money on ebay and PP fees.
Hence why we started the "Buy us a cuppa" hoping they may like to give back a little of what they have saved.
Some do, most don't...

 

[Box Brownie]

I have bought so many grey imports. D850, 5D3 and dozens of lenses Including RF £2<<< lenses. Never had a problem and I saved multiple 1000s. For me it’s a no brainer. I use E-infin or Panamoz. Waiting for my 85 1.2 RF arriving tomorrow from Panamax at a saving of £600

Sounds like a lot great gear that you have bought and sold off(?) over the years but as this forum is "Talk Photography" it is not just about the gear!

Why not introduce yourself in the 'Welcome' sub-fora and tell us what your photographic interests are and maybe also share some of your images taken with the various brands & models et al?

PS and welcome to TP.

 

[Coho-Blue]

The 30 day wait does put some people off, but then some others make 26 posts in 2 days then RTM "Why can't I post in the sales area...
And then there are those that earned their access and never left the classified section, since they got in there.
You only have to look at some of the. "scores" under their names.
They must save ( have saved) one hell of a lot of money on ebay and PP fees.
Hence why we started the "Buy us a cuppa" hoping they may like to give back a little of what they have saved.
Some do, most don't...

Never knew the option to ""Buy us a cuppa"" existed and I have used the Classifieds many times in the past and will more than likely use it again in the future ..

I am more than happy to contribute,, the Classifieds sections are a fantastic place to source great gear .. a couple of Hot Coffees are on the way guys , you`re not having my ....


Coho - Blue

 

[nandbytes]

They must save ( have saved) one hell of a lot of money on ebay and PP fees.

As much as I wish this were the case not quite unfortunately. Generally get less money selling here since you end up selling very close to trade in prices. I am not in the money making business so I generally try to pass on the saving made on here.

Then there is the lack of buyers' protection (not pointing finger at the forums, I know the risks) which has lost me money on a few occasions couple of which you know about

So overall it's more "lucrative" to sell on eBay and sometimes to buy on eBay/PayPal.

Hence why we started the "Buy us a cuppa" hoping they may like to give back a little of what they have saved.

Certainly plan on doing more as a thank you for your efforts in supporting us than because I have saved money (and money making is against the rules anyway so no question about that).

 

[Cobra]

a couple of Hot Coffees are on the way guys

Thanks Harry

you`re not having my ....

Its ok we are well stocked at the moment.

Certainly plan on doing more as a thank you for your efforts in supporting us than because I have saved money.

Thanks

As much as wish this were the case not quite unfortunately.

Well in that case I'm not quite sure what the attraction is for those closet traders & those selling with, well into triple figure feed-back.
They can't all be making a loss. If they were just trying the break even, there is always @mpb.com for trade in etc.

TBH its been going on for years, buying and selling across multiple makes is a dead give away as to who the closet traders are...
Of course non of those will read this as they are glued to the classified section

 

[ShinySideUp]

I didn't know the 'cuppa' thing was even there. I have had a quick look, can one contribute by Paypal? I don't like bandying credit/debit card details around willy nilly; it's a deep distrust of society thing.

 

[nandbytes]

Well in that case I'm not quite sure what the attraction is for those closet traders & those selling with, well into triple figure feed-back.

I can only speak for myself and the things I sell. I'm in triple feedback figure too but I wouldn't classify myself as a closet seller. I do get out plenty, I like using different lenses and it's cheaper to buy and sell used than renting.

The attraction (for me) is just that its less hassle and to some extent the warm fuzzy feeling of having done the "right thing" of passing on the savings.
I generally don't even bother posting pictures here since I am hoping my feedback will be sufficient. Once someone here asks for pictures, the item will inevitably end up on eBay too.

They can't all be making a loss. If they were just trying the break even, there is always @mpb.com for trade in etc.

I'm sometimes surprised at this myself. In fact on few occasions I have even pointed out that they are selling things to me for less money than MPB are offering but they still preferred to sell to me. So I don't know really....

TBH its been going on for years, buying and selling across multiple makes is a dead give away as to who the closet traders are...
Of course non of those will read this as they are glued to the classified section

I certainly do like the classifieds section but I have promised myself to post more pictures this year. I generally like printing my work and put my efforts into getting that perfect than posting online. I should spend some time digitally displaying my work too.... Apparently prints are old fashioned now.

 

[SFTPhotography]

As much as I wish this were the case not quite unfortunately. Generally get less money selling here since you end up selling very close to trade in prices. I am not in the money making business so I generally try to pass on the saving made on here.

Then there is the lack of buyers' protection (not pointing finger at the forums, I know the risks) which has lost me money on a few occasions couple of which you know about

So overall it's more "lucrative" to sell on eBay and sometimes to buy on eBay/PayPal.



Certainly plan on doing more as a thank you for your efforts in supporting us than because I have saved money (and money making is against the rules anyway so no question about that).

I like selling here - eBay is a con artists nightmare and had several items sold but not paid for by timewasters - and the selling fee's are mental.

Anyone I've sold to has paid within 24hrs and I've never had to wait more than 3 days for stuff off a seller here. Direct trading is good on here - I wish more did thb but MPB tend to pick up the slack for gear that isn't sold on here. I like MPB also.

The thread is about grey sellers - I love them myself and will always use them where I possibly can. My thoughts on Panamoz, E-Infin are well known and they're my choice supplier for all my equipment - if buying new. After the aftersales experience I got from WEX - I feel no guilt at all.

 

[lindsay]

Everything Cobra said

@ShinySideUp yes Paypal is an option within BuyUsaCoffee,, and we are grateful for the contributions, they all help to keep the finances in order!

On the matter of closet trading whether true or just apparent, the fact is that if it looked like the Classifieds were becoming the main active part of the forum, we would almost certainly close the section, which might ironically please one of our advertisers! It does therefore behoove all users to really participate in the forums, chat-wise and with images ideally. It's what it's about. The classifieds are a benefit on the side, and if regular users put something in the coffee fund, it is fair all round.

Back on topic, after a short discussion thread, I'm pretty much decided on getting a D850 in the near future, but it will almost certainly be from e-infinity or Panamoz, as their new prices are similar to good used. I just sold my old Fiesta and what I got for it is amost exactly the right amount...

 

[Cobra]

I like selling here - eBay is a con artists nightmare and had several items sold but not paid for by timewasters - and the selling fee's are mental.

Thanks for confirming what I already thought, Steve
And yes back on topic, please. I was just a guilty as anyone. No jaffa cakes for me today as punishment

 

[SFTPhotography]

Back on topic, after a short discussion thread, I'm pretty much decided on getting a D850 in the near future, but it will almost certainly be from e-infinity or Panamoz, as their new prices are similar to good used. I just sold my old Fiesta and what I got for it is amost exactly the right amount...

Rule of thumb - Panamoz a bit dearer but longer warranty. Einfin a bit cheaper but 1 year warranty - not 3. It pays to check prices between the two - sometimes there's not much in it - sometimes there's a lot in it.

Hurry whilst stocks last. It's not a great time to order new equipment

 

[nandbytes]

I like selling here - eBay is a con artists nightmare

Having bought and sold quite a LOT (~60 items sold last year) I beg to differ. I have never lost money buying from eBay and items always sell for more on eBay.
I have lost money buying on here a few times.

The thread is about grey sellers - I love them myself and will always use them where I possibly can. My thoughts on Panamoz, E-Infin are well known and they're my choice supplier for all my equipment - if buying new. After the aftersales experience I got from WEX - I feel no guilt at all.

The warranty and after sales support is mostly a gentleman's agreement with grey importers. As good or bad wex's after sales may be the warranty provided by them has a legal binding.

Regardless of all that it's still illegal to smuggle (not saying you did this) camera and lenses regardless of the justification.

I normally buy from LCE and thier customer services has been great. Get most of my used equipment from them also.
Wex used to be really good when they were smaller. I still find their main store in Norwich (I believe the original one?) to be good.

 

[ShinySideUp]

I normally buy from LCE and thier customer services has been great. Get most of my used equipment from them also.

Haven't bought from anyone else in years.

 

[ShinySideUp]

@ShinySideUp yes Paypal is an option within BuyUsaCoffee,, and we are grateful for the contributions, they all help to keep the finances in order!

Can't find Paypal on this link: Buymeacoffee, just has credit/debit card fields.

Is there another way?

 

[Cobra]

Can't find Paypal on this link: Buymeacoffee, just has credit/debit card fields.

Is there another way?

We do have a PP account.
I'm not sure of the details though.
Best bet is to wait until @lindsay drops by. He'll know the score

 

[lindsay]

Sorry about that Martin @ShinySideUp I thought they had that option (will investigate). However yes we have a PP account, the id of which is info@tpmedia.ltd should you wish to donate that way. In which case, thank you very much in anticipation!