Grey Imports - What are our current feeling?

[Jim_Tod]

Some of them seem to have a workaround of getting the items into the UK first and forwarding them on now, but given that pricing still massively undercuts UK prices I don't think it would be entirely without merit to assume that they are still finding a way to avoid the appropriate duties.

You appear to be assuming a global base price from the manufacturer that is common across regions. How do you know Nikon Asia wont do me a 65% discount on the equivalent uk unit price for the same product as i would get from Nikon UK. If i buy from Asia,i pay my taxes, distribution costs, warranty insurance and add my margin- what basis do you have in thinking i couldn’t still sell legally into the uk whilst massively undercutting the official uk prices?

i hear of underdeclared values but 5 cameras and a number of lenses in over many years i’ve never seen a declaration of value on the box. Occassionally i get a declaration from amazon or ebay but not the suppliers i’ve used.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Just like brexit I don’t think either side will ever see the others opinion so it just becomes Groundhog Day going over the same ground time and time again.

Yup!

It's Nikon and Canon all over again!

 

[nandbytes]

You appear to be assuming a global base price from the manufacturer that is common across regions. How do you know Nikon Asia wont do me a 65% discount on the equivalent uk unit price for the same product as i would get from Nikon UK. If i buy from Asia,i pay my taxes, distribution costs, warranty insurance and add my margin- what basis do you have in thinking i couldn’t still sell legally into the uk whilst massively undercutting the official uk prices?

i hear of underdeclared values but 5 cameras and a number of lenses in over many years i’ve never seen a declaration of value on the box. Occassionally i get a declaration from amazon or ebay but not the suppliers i’ve used

have certainly seen on the box from panamoz. May be because I bought it at release and may be they didn't yet have the time to route through a UK middleman (I ordered it on first day it was on the website and two months before I could get it in the UK which was my excuse for getting it from there).

there are also several other people on this forum with the same experience. The fact that there is no declaration available like the one you get with amazon itself shows its undeclared goods.

 

[Jim_Tod]

Panamoz definitely do it. They had a value of £190 on a £1400 lens I bought 3 years ago

HDEW supply a vat receipt that's not actually valid.

Then i assume you called up HMRC and declared it as incorrect and paid the correct duty and tax?

 

[Jim_Tod]

Panamoz valued a £2K camera as £20 toys
its in sales and I still have the original box. Happy to send it to you if you buy it and you can look for yourself

HDEW do not supply a VAT receipt by default, you can request one though and they provide it. Its "fake".

And you contacted HMRC, advised of the issue and paid the correct duty and tax. You would have been reimbursed by the supplier as i understand things

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Then i assume you called up HMRC and declared it as incorrect and paid the correct duty and tax?

Yes I did actually.

I'll be doing the same with my next camera purchase too.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

And you contacted HMRC, advised of the issue and paid the correct duty and tax. You would have been reimbursed by the supplier as i understand things

No you wouldn't have to be reimbursed by the supplier. Because you're the importer, and the importer is liable.

They offer to pay it if it gets picked up by customs in import.

Which of course could never happen if it was paid correctly already.

 

[Jim_Tod]

This has got to be the longest grey import thread that hasn’t (yet) been shutdown due to ending in a huge argument (there’s probably still time).

Just like brexit I don’t think either side will ever see the others opinion so it just becomes Groundhog Day going over the same ground time and time again.

I’ve just gotten confused about what the issue apparently is in buying grey when two of the more apparently anti grey posters just said they’ve spent at least £3400 between then in the last few years on grey imports, advised that the total declared value on the 2 items totalling £3400 cost was £210 but didn’t explain what HMRC did when they contacted them about the issue. had to read the threads a few times to make sure i wasnt missing something.

 

[nandbytes]

And you contacted HMRC, advised of the issue and paid the correct duty and tax. You would have been reimbursed by the supplier as i understand things

yeah of course

Panamoz all only reimburse if customs picked it up and they got found out, not if you declared it yourself and paid up.
No rewards for being legal

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I’ve just gotten confused about what the issue apparently is in buying grey when two of the more apparently anti grey posters just said they’ve spent at least £3400 between then in the last few years on grey imports, advised that the total declared value on the 2 items totalling £3400 cost was £210 but didn’t explain what HMRC did when they contacted them about the issue. had to read the threads a few times to make sure i wasnt missing something.

What's to explain? I declared it and paid the VAT that was due on it.

 

[Retune]

Morally they may not be doing anything wrong and if i was reading about a rush of HMRC post and door knocking i could understand the assumption that they’re acting unlawfully but i’m not and the debate around grey has been going on a long time without the post and door knocking going on.

It has indeed been going on for a long time, but in all that time, nobody has yet produced a single VAT receipt from any of the main HK operators. This isn't rocket science. VAT is itemised on the receipt I get when I buy a sandwich from Pret. And yet for some mysterious reason, these companies are unable to provide them for transactions worth thousands of pounds. Panamoz, at least, are quite explicit about it in their small print ("we are unable to provide a VAT invoice, as we are not a VAT company"). Most of the others just leave it vague, so you are free to draw whatever conclusions you choose to.

Ambiguity suits both sides, of course. If asked by someone in a position of authority, the grey market operator (which will be registered in HK and operating under HK law) can claim, technically correctly, that they are merely responding to an overseas order, and any import taxes are the responsibility of the customer (though typically they will refund anything that is levied). The customer can claim that they assumed tax was being paid at some point - after all, the website probably has some vague statement about handling 'all import and customs charges' (anything they are hit with, anyway, which isn't the same as everything that's due).

 

[ShinySideUp]

The biggest charge is usually VAT rather than duty. HMRC won't care about any foreign sales tax you may already have paid; if you haven't shopped tax-free or claimed a sales tax refund they'll be happy to charge you again when you are checked on arrival in the UK or declare the goods. UK import VAT is payable on the total value if what you bring in is worth more than £390. Duty may also be payable over that threshold, but the rules are a bit more complicated.

Yes, you're right. I should know this, as many years ago I bought a didgeridoo from an Australian company late at night (UK time) and it was a question of what drunk me bought sober me. The following morning at about 11 am I received a phone call from a very nice-sounding Australian lady, she said (pretend you can hear the accent), "Gooday, Mr H, your didgeridoo is packed and ready to ship."

Didgeridoo, what didgeridoo...ah, wait. Oops.

Anyway, long story short. It made it to a courier in this country whereupon the company asked me to pay import duty and VAT at (I think) 20%. Now the Aussie company said, if I was asked, to declare it as an Aboriginal artefact which would attract 5% VAT. I tried this but the conversation with the VAT office went something like this:

"Hello, HMRC how can I help you?"

"Hello, I am being charged 20% VAT on a didgeridoo which is an Aboriginal artefact so should attract 5% VAT."

"It's a musical instrument and that's 20%."

"But it was made by Aborigines, they go out into the bush, find fallen trees, -- in this case an an Ironwood tree-- then bring them back to a workshop and, using traditional methods, fashion the wood into a didgeridoo."

"It makes a note."

"It only makes one note."

"But you agree, it makes a note?"

"I could make a note by banging a dustbin lid, would that make it a musical instrument?"

"But Aborigines don't make dustbin lids."

"They might, if they made a nice note."

"Dustbin lids don't make nice notes."

"Haven't you heard a steel band?"

"They aren't dustbin lids."

"They could be."

"It's a musical instrument, it's 20%."

"What if I don't pay?"

"You don't get it."

"You're not going to back down on this, are you?"

"Nope."

"OK, send the bill."

At which point, I gave up.

The worst thing is that they charged me import duty on the didge then there was the cost of the didge then there was the shipping (and they estimated the cost of shipping between the bond warehouse and my home and added that), so I ended up paying VAT on the lot!!!

The didgeridoo cost me £140 but by the time I had it in my sticky mitts, it had cost me nearer £230.

Needless to say, I never bought another didgeridoo from Australia...and I try to never click "BUY NOW" late at night after a few wines (doesn't always work though).

 

[sphexx]

You appear to be assuming a global base price from the manufacturer that is common across regions. How do you know Nikon Asia wont do me a 65% discount on the equivalent uk unit price for the same product as i would get from Nikon UK. If i buy from Asia,i pay my taxes, distribution costs, warranty insurance and add my margin- what basis do you have in thinking i couldn’t still sell legally into the uk whilst massively undercutting the official uk prices?

i hear of underdeclared values but 5 cameras and a number of lenses in over many years i’ve never seen a declaration of value on the box. Occassionally i get a declaration from amazon or ebay but not the suppliers i’ve used.

And you’ve had a valid VAT receipt for each?

 

[Jim_Tod]

I believe you'd still be the importer.
All sellers in the UK are required to provide a VAT receipt by law. e-infin doesn't provide one because they don't pay it. you can ask for it and see how far you get

I’m not an trade law expert but i’ll balance your belief against my own belief and see where that gets on whether i am in fact an importer.

They’re only required to provide a vat receipt if they’re vat registered. Many companies aren’t and some who could be operate a set of subsidiary micro companies which are not above the threshold. I’ve always tjought that may be how HDEW provides its VAT receipts- through a subsidiary which is registered for VAT. Corporate structures can be murky and vague- and not solely to act illegally, more often than not to use legal loopholes. I mean even the HM in HMRC does it.

I’m happy enough wasting time on this thread without going chasing shadows asking for something i don’t need from e-infin thanks.

 

[Jim_Tod]

And you’ve had a valid VAT receipt for each?

I didn’t ask for one,
arent necessarily entitled to one
and what does a uk vat receipt matter when looking at how global manufacturers differentiated regional pricing strategies can lead to significant savings on uk prices when importing through the official distribution channel?

 

[nandbytes]

I’m not an trade law expert but i’ll balance your belief against my own belief and see where that gets on whether i am in fact an importer.

They’re only required to provide a vat receipt if they’re vat registered. Many companies aren’t and some who could be operate a set of subsidiary micro companies which are not above the threshold. I’ve always tjought that may be how HDEW provides its VAT receipts- through a subsidiary which is registered for VAT. Corporate structures can be murky and vague- and not solely to act illegally, more often than not to use legal loopholes. I mean even the HM in HMRC does it.

I’m happy enough wasting time on this thread without going chasing shadows asking for something i don’t need from e-infin thanks.

ok let me rephrase, you are welcome to contact the HMRC to confirm but I am 99% sure they will tell you that you are the importer not panamoz or e-infin and you are liable to pay the import charges or tax.

Yes they aren't VAT registered and they don't pay any (or charge you any for that matter). you are supposed to pay it to on the import because you are the importer.
On the other hand if they are the importer they should have paid VAT or import duty and if they did they wouldn't be selling you the item at the price they do.
Plus there is plenty of evidence that they undervalue their goods to evade tax, its no secret yet for some reason you insist on them having paid the tax.

you can believe what you ever makes you sleep at night but that won't change the fact that grey importers are under valuing goods to smuggle them in and people are evading tax.

 

[Retune]

I expect these companies use some sort of quantum accountancy. VAT payments exist in an indeterminate state, in a closed box that must never be opened. Because if you demand a receipt, the wavefunction collapses, the cat is shot. and you owe HMRC £200.

 

[sphexx]

I’m not an trade law expert but i’ll balance your belief against my own belief and see where that gets on whether i am in fact an importer.

They’re only required to provide a vat receipt if they’re vat registered. Many companies aren’t and some who could be operate a set of subsidiary micro companies which are not above the threshold.

Thats about the first interesting point I’ve seen from the ‘smuggling’ side (not that I know if you are one). However I don’t think it flies because we know that if the smuggling operation is detected and the customer smuggler coughs up then Panamoz etc reimburse him .

I’ve always tjought that may be how HDEW provides its VAT receipts- through a subsidiary which is registered for VAT. Corporate structures can be murky and vague- and not solely to act illegally, more often than not to use legal loopholes. I mean even the HM in HMRC does it.

Good point, it may be that HDEW has found some dodge legal loophole through which to draw in the gold.

I’m happy enough wasting time on this thread without going chasing shadows asking for something i don’t need from e-infin thanks.

It’s been an interesting thread. Some of the smugglers honourable members seem to have taken it as a personal attack unfortunately but heigh ho .

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

This has got to be the longest grey import thread that hasn’t (yet) been shutdown due to ending in a huge argument (there’s probably still time).

Just like brexit I don’t think either side will ever see the others opinion so it just becomes Groundhog Day going over the same ground time and time again.

I appreciate others opinions and thats fine, ill just continue to buy grey though.

 

[ukaskew]

You appear to be assuming a global base price from the manufacturer that is common across regions. How do you know Nikon Asia wont do me a 65% discount on the equivalent uk unit price for the same product as i would get from Nikon UK. If i buy from Asia,i pay my taxes, distribution costs, warranty insurance and add my margin- what basis do you have in thinking i couldn’t still sell legally into the uk whilst massively undercutting the official uk prices?

Let's put it this way...if I can set up a company in the UK that buys and ships in camera gear from HK at their trade prices, pay all appropriate taxes and duties and STILL massively undercut official UK prices, why aren't people falling over themselves to do this?

If the margins were that good eBay would be full of people doing it. Legal ways of making substantial sums of money rarely go untapped for long.

It seems fairly obvious to me that it's only really viable as it is now because they have a 20% head start.

 

[Jim_Tod]

Let's put it this way...if I can set up a company in the UK that buys and ships in camera gear from HK at their trade prices, pay all appropriate taxes and duties and STILL massively undercut official UK prices, why aren't people falling over themselves to do this?

Why would you exclude the idea of establishing a company or companies outside the uk rather than basing it on setting up a company in the uk. If you included foreign companies in this then are you perhaps describing those we describe as grey sellers who do have a chunk of the .

if you are setting up a global business then you would establish your company or companies in jurisdictions best associated with your business model. That would be no different to amazon, google, starbucks, etc or establishing a company in a tax haven or registering in Delaware. it’s not illegal to do this.

H you looked into doing this for real, established prices available to volume purchasers through different channels globally and concluded that it only makes sense if they dont pay VAT.

if it’s only viable because of vat payments then why do the manufacturers bother with different official regional distribution channels. If all regions sell at similar costs then why cant Wex buy from other regionsOr why do different regions even exist. Someone mentioned earlier what happened in their hi+fi business on deliveries when they went against the manufacturers pricing strategy, think the global manufacturers wouldnt do this?

 

[Pound Coin]

Why should my money be given to other People?

Is it your money? It will be money that has been earned working in a high wage economy, or by owning a house with an artificially high price, or has been left, and if you have so much that you can buy lots of cameras, or go on foreign holidays, when 95% of the world’s population cannot, why have you got so much money?

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Why would you exclude the idea of establishing a company or companies outside the uk rather than basing it on setting up a company in the uk. If you included foreign companies in this then are you perhaps describing those we describe as grey sellers who do have a chunk of the .

if you are setting up a global business then you would establish your company or companies in jurisdictions best associated with your business model. That would be no different to amazon, google, starbucks, etc or establishing a company in a tax haven or registering in Delaware. it’s not illegal to do this.

H you looked into doing this for real, established prices available to volume purchasers through different channels globally and concluded that it only makes sense if they dont pay VAT.

if it’s only viable because of vat payments then why do the manufacturers bother with different official regional distribution channels. If all regions sell at similar costs then why cant Wex buy from other regionsOr why do different regions even exist. Someone mentioned earlier what happened in their hi+fi business on deliveries when they went against the manufacturers pricing strategy, think the global manufacturers wouldnt do this?

Why are you so convinced VAT is paid despite several of us having had undervalued shipments and no one getting a VAT receipt?

 

[Pound Coin]

Business rates are unbelievable for a high street location

Yes, they are, but that is because government wanted to be seen to keep Council tax down. Taxing businesses doesn’t affect votes.

 

[ukaskew]

Why would you exclude the idea of establishing a company or companies outside the uk rather than basing it on setting up a company in the uk. If you included foreign companies in this then are you perhaps describing those we describe as grey sellers who do have a chunk of the .

if you are setting up a global business then you would establish your company or companies in jurisdictions best associated with your business model.

I'm talking about Dave from Hackney getting containers of gear shipped over and selling it on legitimately (i.e. VAT included). If that was truly viable the market would be flooded and then you might gradually see bigger players enter the market who can secure even bigger bulk discounts. As far as I can tell, not a single person in the UK is actually doing this on eBay or elsewhere. Even if they could undercut WEX etc by 10% somebody would be doing it right now.

Or a small indie shop struggling but with an established website, ecommerce system etc, deciding to go 'grey' as a last ditch attempt to stay afloat. That's not happened either.

There were stories of people finding all sorts of business opportunities at the end of lockdown 1, sourcing products from Asia and selling them on, creating businesses from essentially nothing.

I find it hard to believe that people genuinely accept that these few companies are massively undercutting UK prices completely legitimately. Logic, a bit of maths, some common sense and not a shred of evidence to the contrary suggest otherwise.

 

[sphexx]

I'm talking about Dave from Hackney getting containers of gear shipped over and selling it on legitimately (i.e. VAT included). If that was truly viable the market would be flooded and then you might gradually see bigger players enter the market who can secure even bigger bulk discounts. As far as I can tell, not a single person in the UK is actually doing this on eBay or elsewhere. Even if they could undercut WEX etc by 10% somebody would be doing it right now.

Or a small indie shop struggling but with an established website, ecommerce system etc, deciding to go 'grey' as a last ditch attempt to stay afloat. That's not happened either.

There were stories of people finding all sorts of business opportunities at the end of lockdown 1, sourcing products from Asia and selling them on, creating businesses from essentially nothing.

I find it hard to believe that people genuinely accept that these few companies are massively undercutting UK prices completely legitimately. Logic, a bit of maths, some common sense and not a shred of evidence to the contrary suggest otherwise.

I agree. The nearest example is HDEW which was just a local U.K. based business I believe before it branched out into the ‘importing’ game but as far as I can see they are much the same as the others and not doing like “Dave from Hackney…

 

[sphexx]

Don't blame you, who'd want to eat the emulsified high fat offal tube

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UdfsiMl_hE&ab_channel=ChristianCalgie

Emulsified high fat offal tube is a reasonable description of all the German sausages I’ve tried, I hate’em though they seem very popular .

 

[Phil V]

@ukaskew and @sphexx
Dave from hackney did exist for a while, except I think his name was Stuart? And he was from Scotland.

Other members here will remember him better (I never bought anything from him though did consider it).(edit: Ian from Kerso)

And IIRC he bought from the states and remained VAT free due to low volumes (though he may have been sailing close to the wind).

But the reality is of course that the large manufacturers strongly protect their price differentials by refusing to deal with businesses they find in breach (didn't Nikon stop selling to one of the big name grey dealers).

Personally I find it easy to believe some people don’t understand how the grey market works (the obfuscation is deliberate) but I’m baffled that anyone refuses to accept the VAT fraud involved.

 

[the black fox]

What's to explain? I declared it and paid the VAT that was due on it.

So you bought a grey import paid the correct taxes and now have a product with no warranty that you could have purchased from a u.k supplier with full warranty .. give me time to mull that over

 

[the black fox]

@ukaskew and @sphexx
Dave from hackney did exist for a while, except I think his name was Stuart? And he was from Scotland.

Other members here will remember him better (I never bought anything from him though did consider it).

And IIRC he bought from the states and remained VAT free due to low volumes (though he may have been sailing close to the wind).

But the reality is of course that the large manufacturers strongly protect their price differentials by refusing to deal with businesses they find in breach (didn't Nikon stop selling to one of the big name grey dealers).

Personally I find it easy to believe some people don’t understand how the grey market works (the obfuscation is deliberate) but I’m baffled that anyone refuses to accept the VAT fraud involved.

Yep bought a few canon bits from there when I first started getting expensive gear .. . ,who cares it’s done dusted and gone .. personally I can’t believe the attitude of some of the posters in this thread , at least one sells so much gear in the used section on here he should be classed as a dealer ? And most must be the life and soul of many a party . Starting with the communist one .

 

[sphexx]

So you bought a grey import paid the correct taxes and now have a product with no warranty that you could have purchased from a u.k supplier with full warranty .. give me time to mull that over

I don’t see why he would lose the warranty, though I haven’t seen the documents. Does it say it’s invalidated if VAT is paid?

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

So you bought a grey import paid the correct taxes and now have a product with no warranty that you could have purchased from a u.k supplier with full warranty .. give me time to mull that over

3 year warranty from panamoz. Which is why I buy from them.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I don’t see why he would lose the warranty, though I haven’t seen the documents. Does it say it’s invalidated if VAT is paid?

You lose the manufacturers warranty as it's not made for that market. So he's correct in that sense.

 

[sphexx]

And most must be the life and soul of many a party . Starting with the communist one .

Puzzled! This has been a most enjoyable and educational thread so far. I never realised that all you smugglers were so keen to believe you weren’t that. I thought you were enjoying beating the Revenue men and thwarting the monopolistic tendencies of the global capitalist system whereas most just seem keen to claim all the VAT has been paid.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Yep bought a few canon bits from there when I first started getting expensive gear .. . ,who cares it’s done dusted and gone .. personally I can’t believe the attitude of some of the posters in this thread , at least one sells so much gear in the used section on here he should be classed as a dealer ? And most must be the life and soul of many a party . Starting with the communist one .

As most of us have said though, I don't care what other people do in regards to grey imports, whether they choose to correctly declare them or not.

Just that when deciding to go the grey route, you should understand that you're the importer, and that if there's no evidence vat has been paid then you're potentially breaking the law.

And then make a decision based on those facts. No judgement here.

 

[sphexx]

You lose the manufacturers warranty as it's not made for that market. So he's correct in that sense.

Ah. I guess you also lose any right under UK consumer law though that may be a bit academic given a decent 3 year warranty from the supplier. I guess also that you may not be a “consumer” as a direct importer, it might be treated as a b2b transaction?

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

For example,

WEX Sony A1 £6499 with a 1 year warranty

Panamoz £5380 + vat = £6456 with a 3 year warranty

 

[Jim_Tod]

Why are you so convinced VAT is paid despite several of us having had undervalued shipments and no one getting a VAT receipt?

I‘m not convinced one way or the other. I’m just open to the fact that we dont know the company or vat chains involved. I don’t automatically assume the grey sellers are fraudulent crooks and their customers are crooked smugglers.

I’ve also bought from suppliers mentioned and have never had a customs value form attached never mind undervalued. Thats on probably a dozen items or so over about 10 years. You have your experience, i have mine and they differ in that respect.

With regards a VAT receipt, HDEW provide them i understand if you want/ need one and they stock your requirements. But you are only entitled to a VAT receipt if a company is VAT registered. If they aren’t registered for VAT then you’re not entitled to a VAT receipt. If the supplier chain has a non vat registered company as the party transacting with you then they cant issue a VAT receipt but they may have paid VAT upstream at the transaction with the importer company part of the chain. That VAT is inherent in the cost to you but you cant claim it back as you are transacting with a non VAT registered company. I’m not saying this is how it works but i recognise it could be. Telling me that not being able to get a VAT receipt from a non VAT registered company is proof of fraud is quite the reverse. Getting a VAT receipt from a non VAT registered company would be clear evidence of fraud On the sellers part

if you read panamoz faq’s copied from their website this morning

10. Will I have to pay any import taxes and duties?

You will not have to pay any. Our prices are all inclusive. All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly. You will not be billed.

under shipping on their faq’s

In addition, all import charges will be covered by us fully, and will be either billed to our shipping account or refunded to you immediately if billed to you. Please contact us by email if you are billed and we will send you a refund in full within 24 hours.

under their t&c’s

Import and Customs Charges

The prices on Panamoz.com are all inclusive. All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly. You will not be billed. These charges include import taxes and duties, and all associated charges, such as administration fees.


i can see how this could be construed as contradictory if you wish to construe it that way but could also be that a process foul up occassionally means theres an issue with the courier billing customer rather than their shipping account and they’re reassuring you that this is how they deal with it. Global trading isnt always plain sailing.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Ah. I guess you also lose any right under UK consumer law though that may be a bit academic given a decent 3 year warranty from the supplier. I guess also that you may not be a “consumer” as a direct importer, it might be treated as a b2b transaction?

Yeah and I had to claim for a lens, sent it to Sony, who sent me a quote and Panamoz paid me the repair bill within 20 minutes of me sending it to them. Can't complain at that.

 

[Phil V]

As most of us have said though, I don't care what other people do in regards to grey imports, whether they choose to correctly declare them or not.

Just that when deciding to go the grey route, you should understand that you're the importer, and that if there's no evidence vat has been paid then you're potentially breaking the law.

And then make a decision based on those facts. No judgement here.

Exactly this.
IMHO the best thing about this thread is that it’s been educational to anyone who didn’t know how grey imports worked. (Whilst there are some clearly in denial; I think any sensible person now realises they can be ignored)

The second best thing is it’s been an opportunity for newer members to witness the darker side of some members personalities