Grey Imports - What are our current feeling?

Adamcski said:
Well this thread turned out like the ones on my watch and precious metal forums lol.

It is interesting to see the difference of opinions on these issues though.

I've not used grey market as I only have a Canon M50 mkii and a few lenses which were brought from John Lewis lol.

Still think it's wrong to call those who purchase grey 'smugglers' when there will be those throwing stones from glass houses that deliberately pay themselves low PAYE and dividends to avoid paying the tax they would have done (and the NI) if they were PAYE

I have two ltd companies and take income as PAYE before anyone suggests otherwise, just my 2k divided allowance...and this was pre IR35. They are two different companies in different areas also
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Not the same as one is legal and one isn't.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
Not the same as one is legal and one isn't.
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Still a moral question over both in my opinion.

And further argument can be added in that choosing this method to pay themselves is robbing the system of additional tax and NI for climate change / NHS / better roads, yada yada. Yet still wanting the same benefit of these as those paying full tax / NI via PAYE....

I would wager that these naughty smugglers aren't costing the UK as much in lost tax revenue as those company directors, with non working spouses on payroll, that operate in the above manner...

See, what I was trying to say in previous posts is that there can be perceived moral compass issues with a multitude of things but...we are all different and just have to live with our decisions and actions. Why worry about what others do.
 
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I wonder if all the people thinking they're superior also never ever speed, because that's illegal as well.
As long as I can do something with a clear conscience I'll do it.
 
Adamcski said:
I've not purchased grey and got caught speeding once..so I'm definitely not superior lol
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My car has a speed limiter, so I'm covered on that. You could say, it's a limited liability... :naughty: :coat:
 
robj20 said:
I wonder if all the people thinking they're superior also never ever speed, because that's illegal as well.
As long as I can do something with a clear conscience I'll do it.
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No one has said anyone is superior or even people shouldn't do it.

Just explained what is or isn't legal so people can make an informed decision.
 
robj20 said:
I wonder if all the people thinking they're superior also never ever speed, because that's illegal as well.
As long as I can do something with a clear conscience I'll do it.
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As Andy has just said, no one claiming they’re superior, maybe the smugglers* are feeling inferior?

The simple point is that if someone comes here to ask about Panamoz etc it’s not truthful or helpful to just tell them that VAT has been paid and you'll get a VAT receipt.

The problem is that some at least seem to believe that VAT has been paid and are deceiving themselves and potentially deceiving others :(.

*I would call them “importers” but sadly they do not see themselves as that and “customers” doesn’t quite cover it.
 
Jim_Tod said:
Sure it's not voices in your head as I'm not really hearing howls of anguish :whistle:

You have an interpretation and I have an interpretation of what might be occurring. Yours appears quite narrow - grey sellers are crooks
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I have specifically and I think repeatedly said they are not.
Jim_Tod said:
and grey purchasers are smugglers even if the sellers t&c's note they deal with import and duty.
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By their own accounts most have said they do not pay VAT!

I don’t understand why you keep on with this line :(
 
Jim_Tod said:
Sure it's not voices in your head
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Offensive remark!

Jim_Tod said:
as I'm not really hearing howls of anguish :whistle:
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Take your fingers out of your ears ;) .
Jim_Tod said:
You have an interpretation and I have an interpretation of what might be occurring. Yours appears quite narrow - grey sellers are crooks and grey purchasers are smugglers even if the sellers t&c's note they deal with import and duty. Mine allows for your position but also recognises that other possibilities exist as to how the costs can be lower than official importation channels. I've provided examples of that including a well publicised case between two massive companies.
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I’ve agreed there can be difference in price and advantages to trading in fifferent markets that’s not at issue and as has been said B&H sells both ‘grey’ and ‘white’ products side by side. The issue is entirely about people claiming VAT has been prepaid where patently it has not — lots of evidence, one being they actually promise to (and do) pay VAT if you are caught out. As I also said earlier they have great customer relations and U.K. firms could learn from them.

Jim_Tod said:
I'll assume you're just trolling now as you don't appear to hear anything other than a narrow perspective which only agrees wholly with you.
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That’s pretty offensive. I wonder why you feel the need? If you check out #263 I said you raised some interesting points.
 
Wow so many GOODERS in this pikgergiderry lark .. next time I go to a gathering of picture takers I will just look for the glow of the haloes .
BTW I heard a rumour that the archangel Gabriel has a booth at the next photoshow giving out angel wings ..
 
the black fox said:
Wow so many GOODERS in this pikgergiderry lark .. next time I go to a gathering of picture takers I will just look for the glow of the haloes .
BTW I heard a rumour that the archangel Gabriel has a booth at the next photoshow giving out angel wings ..
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What are you wittering on about?
 
KitsuneAndy said:
What are you wittering on about?
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I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s the sound of a guilty conscience. I don’t understand why, I always thought it was fun to beat the Revenue men :).
 
Adamcski said:
Still think it's wrong to call those who purchase grey 'smugglers' when there will be those throwing stones from glass houses that deliberately pay themselves low PAYE and dividends to avoid paying the tax they would have done (and the NI) if they were PAYE.

I have two ltd companies and take income as PAYE before anyone suggests otherwise, just my 2k divided allowance...and this was pre IR35. They are two different companies in different areas also.

One individual is purchasing grey to avoid / evade tax (morals being questioned) knowingly...LTD owners choosing pay structures that are legal, but doing so to deliberately reduce their tax / NI contributions...could also be seen as a moral issue..

Just my 2p
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Morally they are both questionable indeed. Some big companies like Amazon and Starbucks take it to the next level with tax avoidance.

But once again it seems people don't understand that two wrongs don't make a right.
"I'll evade tax because Amazon is avoiding it" won't stand up very well in the court :p
 
nandbytes said:
Morally they are both questionable indeed. Some big companies like Amazon and Starbucks take it to the next level with tax avoidance.

But once again it seems people don't understand that two wrongs don't make a right.
"I'll evade tax because Amazon is avoiding it" won't stand up very well in the court :p
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I have never said that ordering grey is the most honourable way to do things from a tax perspective. I have stated that we are all individuals and I don't worry too much about what the next person does (grey market buyer / LTD company owner). I worry about me and doing what I am comfortable with. Let others be there own keepers and just get on with your own lives...

Two wrongs don't make a right, you are correct...however there is a certain level of hypocrisy when these conversations pop up on forums because people call out others for ducking some tax, whilst also organising their affairs to reduce their own tax burden.

Now I agree, from a legal perspective one is legal, the other isn't so legal..however morally they are both wrong and I am pretty sure I know which one does more damage to the UK tax revenue out of the two.

Personally, I don't really care too much either way. I am not a professional photographer and never will be. I doubt I will ever have the need to purchase a £4k camera, and probably wouldn't do it justice anyway. I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of other professions and areas that the UK is leaking tax from left right and centre, in far greater figures than a few folk buying a grey market camera (again not saying it is right or wrong).

Now if we can ask a more serious question. Which is the better make Cannon, Nikon or Sony ?

(Just kidding).
 
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I too am risk averse. I buy my equipment from VAT-registered UK companies, I like my official warranties, but most especially, I like to buy my equipment from shops -- real, bricks and mortar shops, with people in them. I can say with hand on heart that I've not bought a single piece of photographic equipment from an on-line company for ten years plus. Before you ask, yes I have actually bought stuff in that time period, probably eight grand's worth (ish).
 
ShinySideUp said:
I too am risk averse. I buy my equipment from VAT-registered UK companies, I like my official warranties, but most especially, I like to buy my equipment from shops -- real, bricks and mortar shops, with people in them. I can say with hand on heart that I've not bought a single piece of photographic equipment from an on-line company for ten years plus. Before you ask, yes I have actually bought stuff in that time period, probably eight grand's worth (ish).
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I am the reverse. Ok bought a few grey items about 12 years ago since then I have bought new and second hand on line. But most of the higher value ones have been from the Fuji refurbished shop. I have not bought anything from a bricks and mortar shop or even been in one for over 25 years.
I even bought my last car on line subject to inspection, before hand over the cash.
I rarely buy anything by going into a shop.
 
Adamcski said:
however there is a certain level of hypocrisy when these conversations pop up on forums because people call out others for ducking some tax,
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Again, I don’t think anyone “is calling out others” just pointing out the mechanic of the operation which some seem to want to deny. I just don’t understand why they persist, particularly since many/most people “duck some tax” if they think they can get away with it. There is a wider question, which has been raised here, that if carried to extreme there’d be no financing all the things we like about the country.
 
On a different tack, much has been said of the evil price fixing manufacturers and their allies but some have said they’ve had repairs carried out at official repair places here and paid for by Panamoz etc. so who maintains these official repair places? Could it be the evil manufacturers?
 
Adamcski said:
I have never said that ordering grey is the most honourable way to do things from a tax perspective. I have stated that we are all individuals and I don't worry too much about what the next person does (grey market buyer / LTD company owner). I worry about me and doing what I am comfortable with. Let others be there own keepers and just get on with your own lives...

Two wrongs don't make a right, you are correct...however there is a certain level of hypocrisy when these conversations pop up on forums because people call out others for ducking some tax, whilst also organising their affairs to reduce their own tax burden.

Now I agree, from a legal perspective one is legal, the other isn't so legal..however morally they are both wrong and I am pretty sure I know which one does more damage to the UK tax revenue out of the two.

Personally, I don't really care too much either way. I am not a professional photographer and never will be. I doubt I will ever have the need to purchase a £4k camera, and probably wouldn't do it justice anyway. I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of other professions and areas that the UK is leaking tax from left right and centre, in far greater figures than a few folk buying a grey market camera (again not saying it is right or wrong).

Now if we can ask a more serious question. Which is the better make Cannon, Nikon or Sony ?

(Just kidding).
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Reduce / avoid. Two different words, with two different meanings. Different outcomes. Different morality. Don't conflate them.

The answer is Olympus.
 
Pound Coin said:
Reduce / avoid. Two different words, with two different meanings. Different outcomes. Different morality. Don't conflate them.

The answer is Olympus.
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I can't really be bothered with this argument / discussion anymore.

I've said my bit.

People believe and do what they like and we can find holes in people's tax affairs / morals in many different ways, so just live at let live.
 
Adamcski said:
I can't really be bothered with this argument / discussion anymore.

I've said my bit.

People believe and do what they like and we can find holes in people's tax affairs / morals in many different ways, so just live at let live.
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A win for Olympus?
 
sphexx said:
A win for Olympus?
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Again I don't know enough about the different offerings / brands to make an informed and educated judgement.

I've got Canon as I had an old 500d, so just brought another Canon. Does me fine for my recreational shooting :)

I do like the old school look of the Fuji cameras though, with all the dials on them. Reminds me of my dad's old SLR camera (which may be an Olympus IRC).

I've been looking at the EOS R recently (again in John Lewis) but I've only had my M50 mk ii a few months so must resist spending when there really is no need (yet).
 
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sphexx said:
On a different tack, much has been said of the evil price fixing manufacturers and their allies but some have said they’ve had repairs carried out at official repair places here and paid for by Panamoz etc. so who maintains these official repair places? Could it be the evil manufacturers?
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that’s a very good point actually
I’ve not actually had a camera break down but I had focus calibration and service work done on my kit by Canon Elstree who were excellent and I’m sure that the Nikon etc places are the same
I hope that they are self funding from repairs but they probably aren’t
it would be a big loss if the had to close
I suspect that Canon UK pays for this operation though and the money to pay for it comes with canon official imports
For the last few years I’ve bought grey but hadn’t thought about that aspect of it only considered price
 
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Adamcski said:
Again I don't know enough about the different offerings / brands to make an informed and educated judgement.

I've got Canon as I had an old 500d, so just brought another Canon. Does me fine for my recreational shooting :)

I do like the old school look of the Fuji cameras though, with all the dials on them. Reminds me of my dad's old SLR camera (which may be an Olympus IRC).

I've been looking at the EOS R recently (again in John Lewis) but I've only had my M50 mk ii a few months so must resist spending when there really is no need (yet).
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There aren’t any bad cameras now anyway. There weren’t really back in film either, they all used the same sensor. To me I think the Fuji ”slr” style remind me of Minoltas probably the flatter “pentaprism hump” though obviously the X100‘s are Leica like.
 
LCPete said:
that’s a very good point actually
I’ve not actually had a camera break down but I had focus calibration and service work done on my kit by Canon Elstree who were excellent and I’m sure that the Nikon etc places are the same
I hope that they are self funding from repairs but they probably aren’t
it would be a big loss if the had to close
I suspect that Canon UK pays for this operation though and the money to pay for it comes with canon official imports
For the last few years I’ve bought grey but hadn’t thought about that aspect of it only considered price
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I expect, but don’t know, that Canon etc fund them based on how many are sold through official channels in the country since they don’t guarantee the the others. Of course Canon & co still make profits on the “grey” ones and if enough come in for paid repairs maybe the income makes a difference. I suppose you’d have to know what proportion of their work is warranty versus charged for.

I’ve been lucky, my only experience of this was taking my OM1 into Olympus when they used to be Honduras Street and they fixed it while I waited and didn’t charge :) .. Can’t remember if it was still in warranty but probably not. Oh, and Leitz replaced my Minox 35 with about 2 days left in warranty due to the ‘paint’ bubbling.
 
sphexx said:
I expect, but don’t know, that Canon etc fund them based on how many are sold through official channels in the country since they don’t guarantee the the others. Of course Canon & co still make profits on the “grey” ones and if enough come in for paid repairs maybe the income makes a difference. I suppose you’d have to know what proportion of their work is warranty versus charged for.

I’ve been lucky, my only experience of this was taking my OM1 into Olympus when they used to be Honduras Street and they fixed it while I waited and didn’t charge :) .. Can’t remember if it was still in warranty but probably not. Oh, and Leitz replaced my Minox 35 with about 2 days left in warranty due to the ‘paint’ bubbling.
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Yes that’s true the grey import companies use independent repair outfits
Just occurred to me that Canon lenses have a worldwide warranty anyway so maybe Canon Japan funds a repair presence in each country
I was happy to pay for my focus Calibration as my kit was grey import , it’s something that owners usually do but I couldn’t get the hang of it but the focus was absolutely spot on when they did it and they didn’t change much anyway
 
LCPete said:
Yes that’s true the grey import companies use independent repair outfits
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I sent my Sony lens to Sony but panamoz picked up the bill.

ETA: I think I could have probably sent it anywhere tbh.
 
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nandbytes said:
Sony regularly run offers where they give free extended warranty card with their FF cameras. And if they aren't, if you ask nicely a number of shops will throw them in for free and especially if have a good relationship with them.
All my Sony lenses (all UK bought) have 2 extended warranty too. Sigma and tamron provide 5 years warranty anyway (though unlike Sony and panamoz they aren't transferable).
All in all the 3 years warranty at least for someone shooting with Sony isn't that big an attraction tbh
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If I could get a 3 year warranty on an official UK body at the time of buying then I'd just do that anyway. I always check on wex etc before ordering in case there are any offers on.

You say 3 years warranty isn't a big deal, but my 35 distagon went out of alignment twice. Both outside of 1 year but within 3.

Panamoz paid for both repairs, which came to about how much I bought the lens for!
 
KitsuneAndy said:
If I could get a 3 year warranty on an official UK body at the time of buying then I'd just do that anyway. I always check on wex etc before ordering in case there are any offers on.

You say 3 years warranty isn't a big deal, but my 35 distagon went out of alignment twice. Both outside of 1 year but within 3.

Panamoz paid for both repairs, which came to about how much I bought the lens for!
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Panasonic have given 3 year warranties at times. The original mft G1 was one I can remember, though you could say it was a special case being the start of a new line., but I’m fairly sure there have been others.
 
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