Harman Photo

Flighter said:
Now up on Analogue Wonderland at £13 per roll
analoguewonderland.co.uk

Harman Phoenix - 35mm Film

Embrace the Unexpected in Every Frame! Step into the world of analogue creativity with HARMAN Phoenix 200, a revolutionary ISO 200 colour negative film. Immerse yourself in the unique charm of true analogue photography with the Harman Phoenix 35mm film
analoguewonderland.co.uk analoguewonderland.co.uk

or £60 for 5
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My daughter ordered 5 earlier today from them, lets hope it is worth it :)
 
I'm put off by the description that said it was grainy, as I hate seeing grain in a photo. This might be mitigated in 120 and large format, but they aren't options available as far as I could see. So, I won't be using a 35mm camera again to try it. I might try 120 if it comes out, but again I'm not into colour photography - heresy I know, but for me digital does it better than 35mm (no grain, sharper!).
 
Watched a few reviews yesterday - On one hand i'm not impressed with the halation, grain and contrast.. but it's freaking awesome they've created a new film, from scratch and sound committed in the long term of develop this further... so at least of the basis of offering some support I will buy a roll or 3

I reckon they will do 120 once the recipe has settled down
 
StephenM said:
I'm put off by the description that said it was grainy…
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Apparently not when cross processed as E6, this chap (Shala1277) speculates that technically it might have a close similarity to slide film.
The colours don't work for projecting but are fine if scanned.
 
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benc98 said:
Watched a few reviews yesterday - On one hand i'm not impressed with the halation, grain and contrast.. but it's freaking awesome they've created a new film, from scratch and sound committed in the long term of develop this further... so at least of the basis of offering some support I will buy a roll or 3

I reckon they will do 120 once the recipe has settled down
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In the grainydays review the two Harman R&D chaps he spoke to they indicated that they had a number of issues they wanted to work on.

What's really great to me is having another manufacturer in the game, I've seen a lot of depressing comments over the years that by the end of the decade colour photography would be dead as Kodak would no longer be producing so it's good to know that there is another source (and possibly also Adox and Wolfen and maybe Ferrania - oh and maybe Fuji - who knows what's going on there!)

It will be interesting to see how Wolfen NC200 (expected in the first half of next year compares) and also what the next version of Phoenix is like.
 
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Just ordered a 5-pack from AW. I certainly don't need it in the near future so most will go in the freezer, but I'll run a roll through soon to see how it shapes up.
 
Well I've watched a few videos, and frankly I'm slightly puzzled. I know it's great to have any new films, but... why is it grainy and contrasty, and why the clear base. Film tech had reached a pretty decent level back in the day. I've shot a ton of the old films, why not just improve or re=release the old films? It seems to be re-inventing the wheel only square. I cant see the point of making a film that seems to be (and to be fair I've not tried it) worse than the old films..
I guess I'm missing something?
 
I've watched a few videos - Roger on the IOW and Ribsy, and I thought the rendition reminded me of the free film you used to get with Tudor Film Processing back in the late 70s/early 80s, which was different to the high saturation Jessops stock. I thought it looked quite nice with a stark sort of feel.
 
swanseamale47 said:
I've shot a ton of the old films, why not just improve or re=release the old films? It seems to be re-inventing the wheel only square. I cant see the point of making a film that seems to be (and to be fair I've not tried it) worse than the old films.
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As far as Harman is concerned this probably isn't an option. They only have the right to use the Ilford name for black and white so I'm guessing that the rights and intellectual property in the old Ilford colour films went to the other Ilford (Iford Imaging) when Ilford went into receivership in 2004. They will have some C41 knowledge from the XP2 film (black and white but developed using the C41 process) but will need to start anew on the colour couplers side. Phoenix 200 is the first step, and by all accounts a very good effort given the short timescale in which it was developed, but Harman seem committed to continuing to develop it and more power to them.
 
I watched Matt Marrash's review and examples, and whilst it doesn't look that great, I like the experimental and analogue feel of it. I'm looking forward to giving it a go soon as it arrives in one of my Spotmatics.
Edited to add: Matt did say that because the film base is different to other films, lab scans are going to come out rather badly due to compensating for that, so it should be sent to labs who have been prepared for that (AW, AG are two I know of here).
 
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I wonder how many of the early buyers are concerned about grain?
I know my daughter isn't, she would use Kodak Gold if she was, and it costs less!
I may get one of her rolls to try :)
 
What ive read/discussed so far its actually a 125 film so shooting at that should shrink the grain, they've rated it on printed perceptions and not the iso standard as I understand
 
Sangoma said:
I wonder how many of the early buyers are concerned about grain?
I know my daughter isn't, she would use Kodak Gold if she was, and it costs less!
I may get one of her rolls to try :)
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I think for some people the grain could be a feature as it is obviously film rather than digital.
 
lindsay said:
I watched Matt Marrash's review and examples, and whilst it doesn't look that great, I like the experimental and analogue feel of it. I'm looking forward to giving it a go soon as it arrives in one of my Spotmatics.
Edited to add: Matt did say that because the film base is different to other films, lab scans are going to come out rather badly due to compensating for that, so it should be sent to labs who have been prepared for that (AW, AG are two I know of here).
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I liked the examples in the reviews by Shaka1277 and Shoot Film Like a Boss. Looking forward to trying it out once I'm through my winter supply of 12 rolls of Vision 500T and can mix up another batch of C41 chemicals.
 
lindsay said:
I watched Matt Marrash's review and examples, and whilst it doesn't look that great, I like the experimental and analogue feel of it. I'm looking forward to giving it a go soon as it arrives in one of my Spotmatics.
Edited to add: Matt did say that because the film base is different to other films, lab scans are going to come out rather badly due to compensating for that, so it should be sent to labs who have been prepared for that (AW, AG are two I know of here).
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Yes, I know Silverpan have done a lot of work as regards getting the scanning right. It's worth reading about it on their web site.
 
Perhaps we should buy some regardless just to show support. Then that gives them more motivation to improve.

I knid of like it, at least it's not Portra
 
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Ill be buying it and one day wet printing so not too fussed about grain
 
I hope to get two rolls tomorrow in time for my holiday next week!

I am also a bit on the fence about a new film which may not be as good as some others but I see where Harman are coming from.


Currently they have no colour film so if they sell one roll of Phoenix they increase their market share of Colour film sales by 100%. If you start at the bottom you can only go one way.
I don't know if this is so much about the difficulty of making colour film, as has been noted the chemistry has been well understood for decades. I think it's more about making it in house with what's available to hand and therefore cost effectively.


As for colour, grain and halation, well I've been rethinking what film photography is for recently. When film or analogue photography was just called Photography as there was only one type of photography people strove for the sharpest, cleanest most true to life results. Today a digital image is super sharp, super clean and super fast. The film resurgence is being led mostly by the younger generation (18-34 year olds), at least according to my YT audience stats. I'm sure they all have mega camera phones and maybe even modern digital cameras (indeed I see a lot of creativity in the digital field from young people, largely driven by an explosion in low cost music production). These young people don't have the frame of reference we, older, people do. So maybe the modern niche for film photography is super emotive, super arty and super creative. In that space grain, halation and all the rest of it may be advantages.

Looking at a wider field if Harman get good sales it may be a spur to Adox and others to also push forward with new films which would be great. Also Harman have mentioned it has been a learning experience for them and maybe that new knowledge will find its way into more "standard" films and products, XP3 Super plus anyone? Ilford Colour printing paper?? A new Cibachrome for negs (Cibacolour)??? One can only wonder and hope.
 
I tend to agree, analogue photography is more about the art and creativity and the emotions it can produce.
If you want super fine true to life reproduction you go digital.

Seeing so many young folks getting enthusiastic about shoot film is fantastic.

In the Youtuber 'Grainyday' video he talking to some lab guys. It was great to hear these two being so passionate about working on it.
 
ilikebowens said:
As for colour, grain and halation, well I've been rethinking what film photography is for recently. When film or analogue photography was just called Photography as there was only one type of photography people strove for the sharpest, cleanest most true to life results. Today a digital image is super sharp, super clean and super fast. The film resurgence is being led mostly by the younger generation (18-34 year olds), at least according to my YT audience stats. I'm sure they all have mega camera phones and maybe even modern digital cameras (indeed I see a lot of creativity in the digital field from young people, largely driven by an explosion in low cost music production). These young people don't have the frame of reference we, older, people do. So maybe the modern niche for film photography is super emotive, super arty and super creative. In that space grain, halation and all the rest of it may be advantages.
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You have hit the proverbial nail on the head.
 
I've come to think of film photography as being impressionistic. It's not so much about detail as painting with shapes, light and colour. It is an impression of the subject.
 
Long interview on the Sunny 16 podcast with 2 Harman folks.

My takeaway was that this was a bit of a passion project for them and that Phoenix film is their toe in the water. If it's a financial success, I'm guessing they'll get the go-ahead to pursue it further and do a better released product - they know what they want to do, and it did feel a bit like Marketing were so excited, they didn't let the R&D guys get finished with the quality and wanted it out the door. They did mention the price and the economies of scale. A "small" batch of this stuff as an experiment had to be that price, which I can understand. Success and larger order volumes would mean the price coming down [implied in the interview and colour me mildly suspicious]. It feels like it's very much a "see what the community thinks" experiment - especially with the vagaries of development. Even their techs said that the look will depend entirely on how you scan it. I also think that what Analogue Wonderland have done for the community is great too, but Harman saying AW [my interpretation] were the experts for dev & scan felt a bit nepotistic and odd.

It's not for me. Grainy colour film at 200 with variable scan results isn't a good start and I can't afford to buy it "in support", even though I'd like to show support because I think what they're doing will be really good for the future of film - if it succeeds. I can see it having a "look" that some folks will like though, and when they stop production [which will apparently be when they have something new to release, so this isn't a quick thing] I imagine your frozen rolls will be worth market price. Unless it bombs of course. In which case they will very likely stop the project.

Good luck to 'em I say.
 
As I said, colour isn't my thing, and neither is 35mm.

I applaud their efforts, and wish them well, though, as I continue to support them by buying FP4 in sheets. I do wonder though about Ilfocolour - why it was discontinued, why Ilford (as they then were) found it problematic, and where the intellectual property went - to Harman or Ilford after the split. I suspect the latter, given the restriction of the Ilford name.
 
Thats what annoys me the most- take Fuji slowly killing their film business line by line, open it up tell the world how you do it and let others manufacture it
 
StephenM said:
…and where the intellectual property went - to Harman or Ilford after the split. I suspect the latter, given the restriction of the Ilford name.
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That would be my guess too, and looks like the 'other' Ilford aren doing much with the IP.

Current Ilford Ilfocolor offerings (looking at Ilford Japan) seems to be a mix of C41 Vintage Tone (which may be Orwo / Wolfen NC500 (produced by Inoviscoat or what is left of them) and ECN2 Cine Tone (which sounds like respooled Kodak Vision 3) - both 400 ISO
 
Flighter said:
That would be my guess too, and looks like the 'other' Ilford aren doing much with the IP
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My inference from the podcast interview was that there is significant resistance from Ilford to allow Harman to use their brand name for anything with the word "colour" in it. I get the impression that the Ilford name is solely to be used in connection with black & white. The marketing lady on there wanted to use Ilford socials to get the word out, but they couldn't and had to do it under the Harman brand - which is significantly "under-followed". Take of that what you will!
 
Harlequin565 said:
My inference from the podcast interview was that there is significant resistance from Ilford to allow Harman to use their brand name for anything with the word "colour" in it. I get the impression that the Ilford name is solely to be used in connection with black & white. The marketing lady on there wanted to use Ilford socials to get the word out, but they couldn't and had to do it under the Harman brand - which is significantly "under-followed". Take of that what you will!
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I've seen a definite reference that Harman are only licensed to use the Ilford name for black and white.

However, despite the "under-following" of Harman as a brand, I think this time they've got the word out pretty well. I've seen it reported, discussed and samples shown in multiple places across the interwebs!

I'm pretty pleased it's happening; maybe not the film for me just now, although I might buy some to help secure success on the basis of what further developments might ensue in a few years...
 
The interesting thing about this new film is the film base is clear whilst 'normal' c41 colour film has a conspicuous orange mask so trying to print this via an enlarger may be errrr..... challenging. From what I have read the images used in the publicity postings from the negatives are all after scanning, not wet silver printing. They also admit this is still under trial so it may not be the final end product.
 
swanseamale47 said:
Well I've watched a few videos, and frankly I'm slightly puzzled. I know it's great to have any new films, but... why is it grainy and contrasty, and why the clear base. Film tech had reached a pretty decent level back in the day. I've shot a ton of the old films, why not just improve or re=release the old films? It seems to be re-inventing the wheel only square. I cant see the point of making a film that seems to be (and to be fair I've not tried it) worse than the old films..
I guess I'm missing something?
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Possibly to use the customer as their testers and save them money (I should have said I was a cynic!)
 
I think itd be good to appreciate how experimental this film is

Reading the data sheet helps

As I understand it they've done some RnD on their XP2 films to create Phoenix and one of the reasons its a clear base and also it’s understandable they would not go down the usual c41 colour process as the costs would have been astronomical.
They are using the tech they already have in house and building on that which is the sensible way to go

Also I think its chalk and cheese and ppl are not wrong but misplaced to compare it to something like Portra - its analogous to comparing the first tesla to petrol cars and what ranges they had

I think they all deserve alot of credit for their transparency (I'm looking at you Cinestill)

Cant wait to grab a few rolls and if it fails then they learned and tried or didnt quietly kill their lines (Fuji!)
 
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